Flashback: What happened next?

[shira]

Let us - courtesy of Reuters- flashback to the 26th of December 2008. In other words, just before this current conflict in Gaza erupted. The reason this is instructive is that we are told that the blockade of Gaza (itself a response to rockets being shipped into Gaza to be fired at Israel) was one of the grievances provoking the Hamas rockets.

So this is what happened on 26 December, according to Reuters:

“GAZA (Reuters) - Israel eased a blockade of the Gaza Strip Friday… “

What happened next?

“… but militants there aimed rockets and mortars across the border, one of which misfired and killed two Palestinian girls.”

Yes, Reuters reported that: “Israel said it was responding to numerous requests from the international community by reopening border crossings with Gaza to allow in vital truckloads of fuel and humanitarian aid.”

But what happened next?

“But renewed fire from Gaza-based militants — a day after Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert warned Islamist group Hamas to stop firing rockets or pay a heavy price — ensured that the easing of tension was short-lived.”

So in a globule, before the fog of competing narratives started when hostilities broke out, according the the Reuters News Agency:

Israel reopens the Gaza crossings
Militants respond to this positive development with rocket fire.
Israel warns of a heavy price if rockets continue being fired at Israel.
Militants thumb their noses and respond with more rocket fire.
We all know what happened next.

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/01/09/flashback-what-happened-next/

[sinkingfeeling]

1. Flashback again: Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

A four-month ceasefire between Israel and Palestinian militants in Gaza was in jeopardy today after Israeli troops killed six Hamas gunmen in a raid into the territory.

Hamas responded by firing a wave of rockets into southern Israel, although no one was injured. The violence represented the most serious break in a ceasefire agreed in mid-June, yet both sides suggested they wanted to return to atmosphere of calm.

Israeli troops crossed into the Gaza Strip late last night near the town of Deir al-Balah. The Israeli military said the target of the raid was a tunnel that they said Hamas was planning to use to capture Israeli soldiers positioned on the border fence 250m away. Four Israeli soldiers were injured in the operation, two moderately and two lightly, the military said.

[shira]

2. do keep up

Hamas claims they will stop firing rockets when Israel eases up on sanctions.

The OP shows that when Israel eased up on sanctions just hours before this war started, Hamas responded with even more rockets. So much for the meme that "if Israel only eases up, the rockets will stop".

Your post is a rabbit trail. Before Israeli troops did anything on Nov. 4, Hamas had already fired hundreds of rockets into southern Israel since the 'ceasefire' began. The "defensive" tunnel-digging was also a violation before Israel struck on Nov. 4. What's funny is that none of that matters until Israel does something in response. Only then is a ceasefire broken. Only dupes and haters peddle such infantile reasoning.

But do try again.

[Recursion]

5. Err.. Hamas reined in rocket firings

The rockets were for the most part Islamic Jihad and Al Aqsa (you know, the armed wing of "moderate" Fatah). Hamas limited those attacks greatly. And then they kicked out Al Aqsa (this gets reported as "kicking out Fatah" in the US). And they get blockaded for their trouble. Since a blockade is legally a act of war, it's hard to say what Hamas was supposed to do at that point.

[shira]

11. theatre of the absurd

What you just wrote is as idiotic as claiming Israel's elected party Kadima doesn't go all military on Hamas, only it's Likud faction.

If Hamas cannot control rockets, they shouldn't be making ceasefire deals in the first place, should they? Again, before Nov. 4, hundreds of rockets were fired, nearly daily. It's ridiculous not to blame Hamas.

Hamas got blockaded due to an increase in rocket attacks after the Gaza 2005 pullout AND after they reneged on all security promises Fatah made with Israel prior to the election.

[azurnoir]

16. Then Iif Hamas was being dishonest in going into the truce

because it could not control the rockets as you claim then was Israel too also dishonest or just using the truce as a time to plan and arm for military action or you saying that Israel with Shabak and Mossad did not know this fact going in?

[shira]

18. there's a difference between preparing

and going forth with it. I'd be more surprised if during the truce Israel did nothing to prepare for whatever happened after it.

Hamas could have armed to the teeth without firing rockets AND they could have extended the truce. They didn't. They fired rockets from day one and never stopped. To claim Israel broke it first, after Hamas' hundreds of rockets during that time, is disingenuous and idiotic.

[azurnoir]

21. First off it was not Hamas firing the rockets

that became a tenuous talking point after November 4 when Israel made an incursion into Gaza proclaiming loudly that it was not breaking the truce. Hundreds of rockets that is an exaggeration at best and an out right lie at worst, between June 18 and Novembeer 4 when the truce was broken there were approximately 30 rockets and mortars fired at Israel and Hamas was arresting the perps a good number of whom were al Aqsa Brigades who are aligned with Fatah

[shira]

22. then Hamas has no business making a ceasefire

if they claim to not be able to control the rockets. It was about 41 combined rockets and mortars between June 19 and Nov 4. Way up in the hundreds for 2008.

BTW, where are those who were arrested by Hamas, still in jail - or was that some revolving door policy for PR? You should appreciate the question - it's similar to most that you ask about Israel, just in reverse now.

Would you be so forgiving with Israel had they kept the ceasefire the same way (41 rockets/mortars and the tunnel)? Or do you just look the other way because it's Israel's enemy?

[ShadesOfGrey]

29. Just out of curiousity...

Did you defend the US invasion of Iraq and the atrocities committed there too?

[shira]

30. nope

war has always been a dirty business. Can't say I was ever for the US going to war with Iraq.

But just out of curiosity, do you think American and Israeli troops are told by their superiors, under the responsibility of their govts, not to give a rat's ass about civilians - ignore their military ethical codes, and that the troops just shrug and follow such barbaric orders like mindless drones?

[azurnoir]

31. Israel redefined the truce whenever it saw fit

however Israel used did use the letter of the truce to try to defeat the truce it self such as attacks and raids on Hamas soup kitchens in the OPT.Although your question has a definate and obvious when did you stop beating your spouse quality about it.

Do you have a link for your rocket numbers? how many of those rockets where in fact on November 4 after the Israeli incursion into Gaza? Are those arrested by Hamas still in jail I do not know are the jails still standing? Let me guess in not then Hamas freed terrorist if they are then Hamas is keeping prisoners in harms way.

[azurnoir]

8. But Shira dear your contradicting your own post

only the desperate try that

[Fozzledick]

3. Ah yes, the six who opened fire when they were caught tunneling under the border

It takes a lot of doublethink to spin that against the defending Israelis.

Plus of course ignoring the central fact that the tunnel itself was the initial violation.

[azurnoir]

10. You mean after IDF had already crossd the border? n/t

[Vegasaurus]

4. These militants are simply too stupid to understand cause and effect

and don't mind having hundreds of innocent children die because they get pleasure in their "martyrdom".

They have asked for a response because they won't let up, and now they are getting one.

I hope every Palestinian militant gets to meet his 72 virgins.

The world will be better off without such people.

[Recursion]

6. It may make your moral world easier to oversimplify like that

I hope every Palestinian militant gets to meet his 72 virgins.

Your ignorance of the nature of Palestinian militancy is made disturbingly obvious by that statement, I'm afraid.

[Vegasaurus]

7. One man's pleasure is another man's pain

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/09/world/09fighter.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper

[Recursion]

9. "72 virgins" is always a red flag

That's a specific doctrine of a specific Salafist school and is not relevant to the theology of Hamas or Islamic Jihad; much less to Al Aqsa and other non-Islamist groups (incidentally, as far as I can tell, totally ignored in the discussion of the current conflict is the role of non-Hamas militants in the fighting).

[HeraldSquare212]

12. and before that...and before that...and before that....

shall we stop at 1948, or keep going back?

[shira]

13. no "before that"....

the OP is about the nonsensical "if Israel is nice, Hamas will stop the rockets".

That's been tried, just hours before the current war and also the Gaza pullout in 2005. Israel received only rockets in response.

It's a nice pie-in-the-sky thought, but it's ignorant.

[HeraldSquare212]

14. You define 'Israel being nice' in a very narrow sense in a small period of time.

'Being nice' might mean more than raising a blockade for a bit.

[shira]

15. oh that's right

raising a blockade even slightly doesn't count, and neither did the end to occupation and settlements from 2005 in Gaza.

[azurnoir]

19. Israel may have taken boots off the ground

at least except for when it decides otherwise but a blockade of both sea and air remained both or either of which are acts of war.

[Idealism]

17. Newsflash: Israel didn't meet the cease-fire conditions

Newsflash: Rocket fire from Gaza was almost non-existent between June 19th (the cease-fire date) till November 5th (the ticking tunnel raids by IDF forces into Gaza). There were a handful of rockets fired, from Islamic Jihad and Fatah-linked Brigades, in that time, yes, but they did not kill anyone, and you can't expect ANY government to be able to 100% control their territory. That would be like expecting Bush and the entire country to suffer because Caylee Anthony chose to murder her daughter. It's just not reasonable.

Here is something else you seem to not know: the cease-fire was contingent upon Israel doing three things- Easing the blockade to allow aid in, allowing industrial diesel into the country (their supreme court said they weren't allowing enough in, but they have yet to comply), and opening all 6 boarder crossings. These conditions were not all met. The boarders were never all opened, the aid was not allowed into the country at the agreed upon levels, and diesel still doesn't reach the Israeli Supreme Court mandated levels.

Here are some graphs because you seem to be militantly ignoring the point that rocket and mortar fire from Gaza was 99.8% quelled by Hamas during the cease-fire time period until Israel killed 6 Hamas in the raid.

[shira]

20. 41 combined rockets/mortars (your numbers are off)

fired before Nov 4. along with the tunnel that preceded Israel's action, does not constitute a ceasefire by any stretch of the imagination.

It was, however, relatively quiet in Sept-Oct (only 4 attacks) so Hamas did keep it for 2 months if you give them that. For 2008, before the current war, the count is over 1000. No other country would sit back and take that.

And yes, barely any casualties - due to Israel's great efforts with bunkers, etc.. to protect their citizens. Maybe Israel shouldn't be so careful so the body count numbers can be more "fair".

[Idealism]

23. Not my numbers,

Israeli intelligence numbers.

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/ipc_e007.pdf

heres the detailed pdf

According to the Israeli Defense Ministry, these attacks during the ceasefire were either not credited to any group, or Islamic Jihad, or Fatah-linked Brigades. Again, not my numbers.


And again, all casualties during this period were Palestinian (40 Gazans to 0 Israelis).

This is disgusting, indefensible, and highly disturbing of you to claim:

Maybe Israel shouldn't be so careful so the body count numbers can be more "fair".

To you, this killing is justified. To you, in order to appear less disgraceful, Israel should have purposefully had more civilian deaths from Qassam rockets. It one thing to support Israel in their military goals, it is quite another to cheer for more death as a way of easing international backlash. You should be ashamed.

[ShadesOfGrey]

24. I think I love you!

:applause:

[Idealism]

28. Just trying to help

:)

[shira]

25. moronic

That was sarcasm, sorry you didn't get it.

The fact is Israel takes great care protecting its civilians with bunkers, warning sirens, etc., while the Gazan govt relishes in civilian casualties. That body count of 40-0 could easily be more even. It's not as though the rockets pose zero threat, which is the whole pernicious point of bringing up misleading death counts. Hamas has NO intention whatsoever of doing what's in the best interests of their own people; only to use them in a very evil and twisted PR game, that many dupes lap up without questioning. A few days ago, a Hamas rocket killed 2 Palestinian girls.

Newsflash for you....Hamas is really, really trying to kill more. They are not retards. They're not into only "scare" tactics. Just the other day their rocket hit a kindergarten shortly after dismissal. That counts as zero casualties, but had the timing been different for that situation and others, it would be a little less compelling to bring up that 40-0 body count, wouldn't it?

[Idealism]

26. I would appreciate it if you kept your civility

Name calling isn't going to raise your credibility here, only facts will do that. If you cannot supply them, stop being argumentative.

While I am not defending Hamas in any way- every attack they make against Israelis constitutes a violation of international humanitarian law- you blindly defend Israel and their atrocities. You fail to even admit that the Gaza Strip is an open-air prison, that the U.N. has made statements calling the situation collective punishment, which is itself a violation of human rights. Hamas has two wings, both very different from each other. The militant wing is bent on Israeli deaths, but the civil wing is not. There may be hope for negotiating with the civil wing, and having Meshal (the exiled leader of Hamas who is currently in Damascus) abdicate command over to the less radical wing. That is the best chance I think for peace in the region. Hamas will win the next election in Gaza for their defiance of the Israeli military, which is pretty indicative of the regions dislike for oppression. I think their needs to be fundamental change in the leadership of both groups. Israel is built upon their military power, yet for all those hundreds of billions wasted on arming themselves to the teeth, they can't stop even primitive guerrilla style tactics, so really what good has the over $100 billion we've given them done?

The leadership of both sides needs to be thrown out the door and put in jail, if you ask me.

[DogPoundPup]

27. Israel, not the Palestinians, has opposed international UN monitors in the conflict since Oslo

n/t