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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 10:37 AM
Original message
Iraq lawmakers to seek reparations for 1981 IAF strike
<snip>

"A group of Iraqi lawmakers are determined to press forward with their demands for reparations for a 1981 Israeli attack on an Iraqi nuclear reactor, Baghdad's daily al-Sabbah reported Thursday.

Mohammed Naji Mohammed, a member of parliament with the United Iraqi Alliance coalition, is leading a campaign for a parliamentary resolution obliging the Iraqi foreign ministry and courts to seek billions of dollars in reparations for an Israeli air strike on the Osiraq nuclear reactor.

"We will intensify the campaign in the coming period to prevent the Foreign Ministry from delaying attempts to seek compensation for the attack in accordance with existing international resolutions," Naji told al-Sabbah.

UN Security Council Resolution 487, passed in the wake of the attack, "strongly condemns" Israel's air strike against Iraq's Osiraq nuclear reactor in June 1981, and "considers that Iraq is entitled to
appropriate redress for the destruction it has suffered, responsibility for which has been acknowledged by Israel."

more
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
1. Living well is the best revenge, rebuild it.
Ring it with SAM's and paint a big middle finger on the fucking roof.
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. give me a break
If not for that Israeli airstrike, Sadaam would actually had WMD. I applaud Israel for its action back in 81.
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-21-09 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. How, the fuel wan't even in country.
They destroyed a very expensive structure and never paid a red cent for the damage. They even managed to kill a french national.

What heroes. Bravo Israel you bunch of thugs.






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henank Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-21-09 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. So you would expect the Israelis to wait until the very last second
before they are allowed to take self-defensive actions? You call them thugs because they destroyed "a very expensive structure"? Well boo hoo diddums, it's not like it was Saddam's summer palace or anything. It was intended to be a place of manufacture of WMD. If Israel had waited until the fuel was there, what do you think would have happened? Nuclear blast anyone? Or is it just that everything come down to money in your mindset?

a retrospective of Osirak

the threat to Israel and its neighbors
would have been so great that Operation Desert Storm against Iraq probably would not have been
mounted by the United States and other countries. Instead, Saddam Hussein would probably have
gotten away with his aggression against Kuwait. And if that had happened, Saddam's dementia
combined with vast oil wealth and a nuclear capability could have altered for the worse the course of
human history. Israel's preemptive strike against the Iraqi nuclear installation in Osiraq ironically
benefited Kuwait and Saudi Arabia even more than itself.


The raid on Osirak
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. They destroyed
what most likely would have been a source for WMD. Just because Iraq was our ally back then does not mean they were not up to nefarious things. Israel was quite right to destroy it and should not have to pay one red cent for it.
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. So I guess you are for keeping all cards on the table regarding Iran?
Edited on Tue Jun-23-09 01:58 PM by wuushew
I find it a sick and twisted morality that excuses concrete murder in the name of preventing hypothetical ones. Israel's existential peril is no different than any other nation since the invention of the hydrogen bomb.

You can only speculate at the alternate history that would have been created in a non-Osirak strike timeline. How would the Iran-Iraq war unfolded? Would the Saudis still have welched on financial support to Iraq? Would the first Gulf War still have occured? It is supreme arogance to say that the Israeli beligerance led to best of all outcomes.

Finding the wrongness in conventional wisdom is a fun and rewarding hobby. Israel is wrong here. There was no Osirak program without French fuel.

What exactly is the freakout radius of Israel? It must lie on the Iranian-Pakistani border. Discriminating nuclear capability from nuclear intent seems to be an act of cultural racism, and one Israel will have to repeatedly make as more of the world turns to nuclear power as a carbon free source of generating electricity.


:nuke:
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Iraq
was building the reactor for one reason WMD, not peaceful purposes (aka power production).
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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-21-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Violent Islamists with Nukes is a great idea n/t
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. Not a wonderful idea; the world needs fewer nukes rather than more
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Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
2. Why don't they just demand the money from the US?
We're going to pay for it anyway.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Actually, Iraq has a lot more reason to demand money from the US (and Britain)
We did incomparably more damage - and are still doing it.
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Lakrosse Donating Member (78 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-21-09 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. I agree
and this is more singling out Israel, as we have seen for decades. it really is a sick obsession. I bet you anything the OIC brings this to the UN and makes a stink over it. Why didn't Saddam demand reparations? Even he knew he was up to no good. And for those defending him, just because Bush hated him, didn't mean he was a good guy. He did at one time want WMDs. its thanks to actions like Israel's and Clinton's bombing of Iraqi facilities that he never had them.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. No-one here at DU defends Saddam...
You seem to have some very bizarre ideas of what DUers think. Maybe you should take the time to read DU more before making more comments like that?

And seeing as how it was Israel that bombed the reactor, Iraq has every right to seek reparations without being accused of having a 'sick obsession'. I get a bit sick of seeing posts like yrs and the one yr replying to rushing in to go 'but what about them and them and them before Israel?' when not once do you do the same thing when it comes to Palestinians...
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Context!
Edited on Mon Jun-22-09 07:59 AM by LeftishBrit
My reply was to someone who said that if Iraq got damages from Israel, the USA would probably end up paying, and implied that this would be unfair. I was pointing out that it would be more than fair, as the USA and Britain have done the most harm to Iraq. Nothing to do with the Palestinians, even if it's in this forum.


And yes, I agree that very few people defend Saddam.
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Dick Dastardly Donating Member (741 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. Pot to Kettle. It seems your not sick of 'but what about them and them and them'

to bash or single out Israel. I have seen you do it and ignore when others do it
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-24-09 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. I don't do that, and I certainly don't accuse DUers of supporting Saddam!
The only bit I was wrong on was to refer to LB and say she was doing the Look Over There! thing, which she wasn't doing at all when I reread the exchange. I was spot on with the rest, though...
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Dick Dastardly Donating Member (741 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-25-09 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. I was not talking about Saddam or claiming you support him. I was commenting on
your statement that your sick of the look over there thing by supporters of Israel when you have done the exact same thing and also ignore it when the anti Israel crowd does it. The fact is both sides have done it and to paint it as only done by one side is disingenuous
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-25-09 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Okay, but I don't do that 'Look Over There!' Thing...
btw, there's no such thing as an 'anti-Israel crowd', no more than there's an 'anti-US crowd' here. Being critical of Israel for its policies and treatment of the Palestinian people, and especially now, being very critical of a hardline RW Israeli govt does not make someone 'anti-Israel'..
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-25-09 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. It depends what you mean by "anti-Israel"
"Anti-Israel" is not a well-defined phrase. By some possible interpretations there are lots of people here who are anti-Israel, and I don't think those interpretations are objectively wrong.



If you mean "does not support the continued existance of Israel", then I don't think there is anyone who posts here regularly who qualifies (except possibly IndianaGreen, who supports a binational state of which Israel would be a part - not quite the same thing as supporting the destruction of Israel).

If you mean "thinks that Israel should never have been founded" then I at least qualify, and I suspect several others do.

If you mean "thinks that the government of Israel is doing a great many bad things, and deserves to be condemned; that anyone who supports those policies is wrong do to so, and that most of the Israeli electorate supports those policies", or something similar - which you say you don't, but which I think is one reasonable interpretation of "anti-Israel" - then I and many others, including I think you, qualify.

If you mean "wants to see Israelis suffer" or "does not care about Israeli suffering" then I don't think there is anyone here who qualifies.

If you mean "thinks that when evaluating a course of action, the suffering it causes Israelis has to be offset against the suffering it causes Palestinians and vice versa, and the best thing for Israel is not necessarily the right decision" then a lot of people here, including me, qualify.

If you mean "thinks that the I/P conflict is more the fault of Israel than the Palestinians, and that Israel has committed more, worse crimes against the Palestinians than vice versa" then I think lots of people here, including me, qualify.

If you mean "believes that Israel as an entity is objectively morally evil" then there are probably some people here who qualify, but not many, and most of those probably wouldn't admit it.

If you mean "their emotional or visceral take on the I/P conflict - as opposed to their rational assessment of it - is hostile to Israel" then I think a lot of people here, including me, qualify (although I do my best to avoid letting that influence my judgement. But never overestimate one's own ability to be impartial or objective...)



I think the last one is in some ways the most informative - humans are emotional creatures, and I suspect that in most conflicts, most people "pick a side" - they don't claim or believe that right is entirely on that side, but they subconsciously identify one side as "my gang" and the other side as "the other gang" (or, occasionally, they esubconsciously identify both sides as "the other gang" and "in the middle" as "my gang", as I think e.g. Oberliner may do), and this influences their actions more than one might expect.

I think the regular posters in the I/P forum split fairly clearly into two "sides", with a few exceptions (Oberliner being the only obvious one). Whether one identifies those sides as "pro Israel" and "pro Palestinian" or "anti Israel" and "anti Palestinian" or what is a matter of taste.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-25-09 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Interesting points
There are many meanings of both 'anti-Israel' and 'pro-Israel'.

I think that on a board like DU, there are two very different categories of people who might be described by some as 'anti-Israel': the pro-Palestinians, and the xenophobic-isolationists. They are really very different groups, though some pro-Palestinians welcome the support of the xenophobic-isolationists, just as some pro-Israelis welcome the support of neocon-imperialists or Christian Zionists. Pro-Palestinians and pro-Israelis who do either of these things are in my view greatly mistaken and accepting a Trojan horse!

Pro-Palestinian people are highly critical of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians and of the Occupation; and want a Palestinian state. (At the extreme, some think this should include the entire area, including Tel Aviv; but many just want withdrawal to the 67 borders or similar - which I support.) Israel to them is an opponent in the I/P conflict, but not the bane of the world.

Xenophobic-isolationists view Israel as having undue control of the world/ the US/ Britain. At the nastiest level, they may blame Israel for 9-11, for the Iraq war, or for 'controlling the government of my country'. Some are frank antisemites; some are not, but oppose any involvement with other countries. There is a considerable overlap with right-libertarianism, though some left-wingers also have such views.

I would consider you as pro-Palestinian, but not in the least xenophobic-isolationist. I would consider myself as close to neutral (supportive of the people of both sides; critical of the leaders on both sides) in the division between pro-Israelis and pro-Palestinians, but 'pro-Israel' in the sense of opposing the xenophobic-isolationists.



'I think the regular posters in the I/P forum split fairly clearly into two "sides", with a few exceptions (Oberliner being the only obvious one).'

I agree that Oberliner is very much in this category, but I do think there are a few others, including myself, and Cali, and.. well, I probably shouldn't try to define too many other people's views for them, but they definitely exist. I think at least in my case it may be in part a matter of my side being on an emotional level most definable as 'against the right-wingers of all countries', overriding partisanship for any particular country.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-25-09 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Israel's harshest critics here are anti-Israel and not really pro-Palestinian at all
Edited on Thu Jun-25-09 06:15 PM by shira
Anyone truly pro-Palestinian would stand up for Palestinians who suffer due, to the most part, to regressive Palestinian and regional Arab leadership. I rarely see that type of pro-Palestinian sympathy exhibited here at DU by the anti-Israel contingent.

Granted, the occupation is a cause for lots of Palestinian suffering the past 42 years but it pales in comparison to the treatment Palestinians have received from Pal'n and regional Arab leadership the last 61 years.

Most Palestinians will tell you straight out that the hell of occupation is far better than the treatment they receive under the boot of Hamas and PLO leadership.


"The journalist adds: "There are two options today that could take us out of this situation: Someone strong in the Gaza Strip who does not care about a confrontation with the clans, or an Israeli occupation. Many people in the Strip hope that Israel will reoccupy it because these phenomena were not prevalent during the Israeli occupation."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/853107.html

=========

"The whole world seems to be talking about the future of the Arabs of Jerusalem, but no one has bothered asking us. The international community and the Israeli Left seem to take it for granted that we want to live under Mr. Arafat's control. We don't. Most of us despise Mr. Arafat and the cronies around him, and we want to stay in Israel. At least here I can speak my mind freely without being dumped in prison, as well as having a chance to earn an honest day's wage."

The Daily Telegraph (London), Jan. 28, 2001.

========

"The hell of Israel is better than the paradise of Arafat. We know Israeli rule stinks, but sometimes we feel like Palestinian rule would be worse."

‘Abd as-Samiya Abu Subayh, quoted in The Washington Post, July 25, 2000

========

"If a there was a referendum in the Gaza Strip 'would you like the Israeli occupation to return?' half the population would vote 'yes'... But in practice, I believe that the number of those in favor is at least 70%, if not more - much higher than is assumed by the political analysts and those who follow . For the million and a half people living in this small region, things have gone too far - in practice, not just as a metaphor. with the internal conflicts, but even earlier, in the days of the previous Palestinian administration, which was corrupt and did not give the people even the tiniest hope. The fundamentalist forces which came into power also promised change and reform, but got a siege, with no security and no making a living... If the occupation returns, at least there will be no civil war, and the occupier will have a moral and legal obligation to provide the occupied people with employment and food, which they now lack."

Bassem Al-Nabris
Palestinian poet from Khan Younis, Gaza Strip

========

"People in Gaza are hoping that Israel will reenter the Gaza Strip, wipe out both Hamas and Fatah, and then withdraw again... They also say that, since the massacres, they miss the Israelis, since Israel is more merciful than who do not even know why they are fighting and killing one another. It's like organized crime, . Once, we resisted Israel together, but now we call for the return of the Israeli army to Gaza."

Faiz Abbas and Muhammad Awwad:
Al-Sinara (Nazareth), May 18, 2007

=========

"Between one murder and another, between one kidnapping and the next... our leaders continue to sit in their seats and to speak of 'resistance,' 'liberation,' 'unity,' and 'return'... They are all liars. The weapons they wish to retain, as the weapons of resistance, are actually weapons of internecine terrorism and murder... You are murdering the cause, people and future... Oh murderers, you have ruined our world, castrated our nationalism, prostituted our resistance... You have turned our lives into hell. hell is preferable... Take your government, your militias, and your gangs and go to hell."

Al-Ayyam (PA), May 17, 2007


Anyone who casually dismisses or ignores the above quotes is not "pro-Palestinian".

Any "peacenik" thinking Palestinian suffering will end as soon as Israel ends the occupation is not "pro-Palestinian".

More like "pro-Palestinian"........leadership. :puke:
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-25-09 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Disagree - I think casual dismissal is what the above merit.
Edited on Thu Jun-25-09 06:43 PM by Donald Ian Rankin
Anyone who tries to absolve Israel of blame for the humanitarian catastrophe it has inflicted on the Palestinians is simply wrong.

Of course, the leadership of the PA is bad and that of Hamas is very bad, but neither causes nearly as much suffering for the Palestinians as Israel does. Of course there are Palestinians who disagree; they are not, however, representative, and to claim that they are is dishonest.

A claim from you to know what "the majority of Palestinians" believe is laughable, and your claim to give a damn about their suffering is just offensive.

Israeli occupation has been causing the Palestinians suffering for at least 62 years, arguably longer if you count the terrorism that lead to the foundation of Israel.

Ending Israeli occupation will not end the Palestinian's suffering - it will take a while for them to build a functioning society even if the Israeli boot is taken off their necks - but it would massively alleviate it.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-25-09 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. why don't you think those quotes are representative of majority Palestinian opinion?
Edited on Thu Jun-25-09 10:20 PM by shira
Realize that any Pal'n opinion highly critical of Hamas and Fatah is often suppressed or dealt with harshly. Theirs is not a "free" society. A price is to be paid for dissent in the Palestinian territories.

As I see it, you're trying to absolve Pal'n leadership of most of the blame for Palestinian suffering. Not very pro-Palestinian.

Compare Palestinian life before Oslo under occupation - where the quality of life, jobs, education, health, rule of law, basic civil liberties (freedoms of press, dissent, women/minority rights), etc... were in effect. Compare and contrast to the Palestinian situation since the PLO was given autonomy in the 90's.

You probably blame the refugee problem mainly on Israel too.


“The Arab states do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it as an open sore, as an affront to the United Nations, and as a weapon against Israel. Arab leaders do not give a damn whether Arab refugees live or die.”
-Ralph Galloway 1958, former UNWRA director


"the Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate, and to leave their homeland, and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live.”
-Mahmoud Abbas 1976



Compare that to what Israel tried to do to solve the refugee problem in Gaza and the W.Bank and it's obvious Israel cares more for Palestinians than any of the regional Arab leadership, including the UN:
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=52&x_article=960

The same is true today with Pal'n and Arab regional leadership seeking to extend and maximize Palestinian suffering.

Palestinian leadership like Hamas today seeks to maximize PALESTINIAN civilian casualties when provoking Israel while Israel tries to minimize it (Palestinian civilian casualties only help Hamas PR) but you have the nerve - is it due to ignorance or outright dishonesty - to claim Israel is "mostly" to blame for Palestinian suffering?

In 61 years, why hasn't there been ANY authoritative Palestinian leadership stating very simply: "We want REAL peace with you....we will accept Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people so long as Israel accepts Palestine as the nation state of the Palestinian people....we realize Jews have a valid historical claim to this land, just as we do.....we will work with you economically, end this conflict for good by fighting all anti-jewish incitement to hatred and violence, we will enforce law and order, de-militarize, state-build,...and generally be a very good neighbor and partner".

THAT'S ALL IT WOULD TAKE TO END THIS ONCE AND FOR ALL! But you just can't seem to admit that regional Arab leadership wants Israel destroyed so badly, they will insist that Palestinians keep suffering as political pawns - and they know they have apologists like you who will absolve them and blame Israel.

That's pro-Palestinian leadership, not pro-Palestinian.

Oddly enough, you think you think you have the solution to this conflict, even though you claim Israel has ZERO right to self-defense against Arab terror and that Israel's neighbors like Hezbollah have every right to fight Israel's military - what a joke since Israel's neighbors, including Hamas and Fatah, have ALWAYS gone intentionally after civilians - but you're for that, and against Israeli defense of such - and you KNOW that all such attacks by regional leadership are meant to maximize civilian casualties not only on Israelis but the Arab populace. I don't see how you take yourself seriously.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-26-09 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. It depends what you mean by "all this"
It would certainly end the things Israel wants ended. It certainly wouldn't end the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land, which is the root of the conflict; it almost certainly wouldn't lead to a more equitable distribution of water resources, or to a dismantling of the wall, or right of return or compensation for the Palestinians Israel drove out (you're quite right, I do blame the refugee problem mainly on Israel...); it might well not even lead to an end to the roadblocks or the restrictions on food etc entering the occupied territories, or most of the other things the Palestinians want ended.

What *would* end the conflict once and for all is Israel withdrawing to its own borders.


If Israel offers the Palestinians genuine peace they will probably reciprocate. If the Palestinians offer Israel genuine peace, it absolutely certainly won't, as even you admit.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-26-09 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. "What *would* end the conflict once and for all is Israel withdrawing to its own borders."
Edited on Fri Jun-26-09 06:05 AM by shira
How can you say Israeli occupation of Palestinian land is the ROOT of the problem but that Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders will end this conflict once and for all? What was the 1967 war all about?

You're contradicting yourself.

The root of the conflict goes back to when the Brits installed Mufti al-Hussayni shortly after the Faisal-Weismann agreement. Up until that point, 2 states for 2 people was workable. Al-Hussayni took over, wiped out all moderate and progressive Palestinian representation and leadership and that's continued to this day. You want an end to the conflict, you have to first address al-Hussayni, Arafat, Hamas, and all the other extreme, fanatical regional leadership that will not abide even one square mile of a national home for Jews in that area and ALLOW for real, representative moderate Palestinian leadership and representation to materialize.

That's the pro-Palestinian position.

And here's one possible solution to the conflict.....

NO DEMOCRACY FOR THE ARAB WORLD

By Ben-Dror Yemini




The new buzz-word in the Middle East now is Democracy. Who could possibly object? Even those opposed to the USA do not dare come out against this winning concept. To implement it, a Jewish professor, Noah Feldman, was recruited to "Go to Iraq and install Democracy". Here we have a double treat: Democracy, and a Jew. Who could ask for anything more?


The answer comes unexpectedly from a brilliant Muslim. Farid Zakharia, a newspaperman and intellectual living in the United States, has been claiming for many years that democrarcy can wait. Not to worry: He is not a follower of Edouard Sa'id, nor a hater of the West. Quite the contrary. Zakharia is one of the severest critics of fundamentalism and the backwardness into which it forces the Muslim world. In a recently published book, "The Future of Liberty", Zakharia writes that there are a few more important items of business requiring attention before going to cast ballots in make-believe elections in Iraq.


Tens of millions of Muslims all over the world have for decades been brainwashed in a primitive educational system, a significant part of which consists of anti-Western polemics. This system is supported by Western academics and is in blatant violation of human rights. It views liberalism as permissive, conducive to corruption and as desecrating family honor. Fawning post-modernists will tell us that one must 'understand the other', and that 'Liberal values are not necessarily preferable'. They add that 'Repressive American hegemony' is to blame for all the world's troubles, and so on. Everyone is at fault, not only the medieval education system, the corrupt tyrants, and the hate-mongering mullahs.


For democracy to take hold, public debate is essential, a culture in which opposing points of view may be expressed and discussed. But this has been eliminated in most of the uslim world. Even in Egypt, where there is a certain amount of freedom of the press, such freedom has a very definite purpose, such as anti-Israel diatribes voiced by a certain Israeli guest writer. That is the current "Democracy". This type of misinformation, when fed to the average Egyptian reader, limits his options to a choice of a party that calls for the elimination of Israel, and a bin-Ladenite party that will declare a Jihad on all Western infidels. And the intellectuals? They are the worst offenders. For them "Progress" is mainly the option, even the obligation, to hate the entire Western world, and especially Israel. Thus the literary societies, engineers and lawyers. If this is representative of the warped views held by educated Egyptians, the leaders of monstrous self-delusions, what could be expected of the ignorant masses?


There are other voices in the Arab world which are critical, open and enlightened. But they are in the minority, and suffer from discrimination, especially among the literary. If this be democracy, it appears doomed before even trying. It was tried in Algeria, with well-known results. In Turkey, an autocratic leader, Mustapha Kamel (Attaturk) enforced liberalization. Blessed tyranny. Even now, Turkey operates under a secular army rule which prevents the return of Islam.


In most Arab countries, religion is the escape for the ignorant, desperate and poverty-ridden, and the tool of the inciter. Liberation from Saddam will not make the Iraqi masses embrace American revolutionary standards - not even the old French values, but will rather leave them open to religious tyranny. Free elections will not install any human rights enthusiast, but will instead produce some bin Laden mutation. There are some examples of success, such as in a few of the states of the former Soviet Union. There, a precondition for democratization - even if incomplete - was the suppression of fundamentalist factors. The problem is neither Islam nor the Qur'an. On this point, and on this point only, Professor Feldman - whose failure in Iraq is assured - is right. The problem is incitement to hatred, brainwashing and a corrupted education.


Zakharia claims that liberalization also depends on economic growth and the presence of a middle class. He also differentiates between an oil-produced (and meaningless) growth and one based on progress resulting from an expanding industriousness as the way to freedom. Only with a wide-based middle class with reasonable income can opportunity come. But democracy will not be the cause, but rather the result of this. Democracy means reaching the end of the road, not the starting point.


The solution for the Arab world is a period - and not necessarily a short one - of a benevolent dictatorship. Elimination of coercion, preaching of hatred and incitement to violence, and a sound general education system coupled with economic development. Iraq needs an Attaturk, with a tyranny for the purpose of enlightenment, at least for the interim, and not free elections, which would result in the coronation of some ayatollah. Democracy is indeed the best form of government, but in this region, at this stage, it is a recipe for collective suicide.


And here is why the above isn't happening and won't happen anytime soon.

...by the same author.


EUROPE VERSUS THE ARABS


Who was it who wrote that 'The culture of self-delusion is the reason for the Arab world's backwardness'? And who wrote that 'All the resources stolen by British companies during their years of rule in Iraq do not amount to one-tenth the fortune spent by Iraqi governments to build a (military) machine that brought it no benefits, except the death of about a million young men'? And who wrote that Arab fantasy causes them to think that their culture is superior to that of the West?


Surprise! All of the above were written by Arab intellectuals, who live and who publish in the Arab world.


The following is but a partial list of partners in this new wave, such as Dr. Jabber al-Ansari of Bahrein, Al-Afif al Akhchar of Tunis, Toufik abu-Bakhar of Ramallah, and many others. They do not belong to any party or movement, and are not all alike. Yet, they are no longer anonymous. They are having their say in the most important and widely distributed newspapers. They are fed up with absence of critical thought, hatred of the West, and of self-delusion.


One would have thought that Western intellectuals would delight in discovering this treasure of clear thinking: Here are reformists in the heart of Arab and Muslim culture who do not despise their identity and who yet detest Saddam and bin Laden. Here are partners for a better world.


But surprise again! Europe is not interested. These thinkers do not fit the theories developed in academe and which have taken over most of the European media and governments. Europe knowingly encourages only Muslims or Arabs who adhere to the extremist line. Europe prefers Khomeini. She protects Saddam. She encourages Arafat. Maintains a dialogue with Nasrallah. Understands bin Laden. Europe is in love with power, as long as it's not Western.



When European companies supplied Iraq and Iran with the means to manufacture WMD, its intellectuals became manufacturers of excuses for hating the West. Slogans that only a few years prior were the property of radical writers are now common currency even in centrist circles - the same slogans expressed by the most despicable hate-mongers. It is no longer possible to differentiate between someone identifying with al-Qaeda from an editorial in Le Monde. The same anti-West canards are circulated in the Arab world and Europe. Middle-Eastern studies are supported by one of the Western world's most pro-Fundamentalist and anti-American European organizations. Hamas supporters are welcome guests at their conclaves, but not Iranian student representatives, because they are against supporting Hizbollah. That is too much for Europe!


Europe is mired in a morass wherein significant parts of academe and media consider it politically incorrect to espouse liberalism and democratic ideals. It is a real crime to claim that the Muslim world's main problem is internal tyranny and self-delusion. The "other" god, that of "the oppressed", approves the appearance of Chirac in Beirut alongside Nasrallah - and it matters nought that this murderer loathes all that is Western.


Millions of Muslims live in Europe, most of them secular individuals. Most want to become part of Europe, not part of al-Qaeda. But they are under pressure from European governments to play the part of the eternal 'other'. If Saddam and Nasrallah are Chirac's pets, and if the Guardian's senior commentator on Middle-Eastern affairs - like many of his colleagues - 'understand' and espouse terror, then what exactly can a young Muslim from the Paris or London suburbs conclude? Should he identify with intellectuals like Al-Akhchar of Tunis or Prof. (Fouad) Ajami of the USA, or rather with the Hate-the-West crowd?


Europe is bound to pay a heavy price for this stupidity. Those accepting or even justifying anti-American terror do not realize that by so doing, they are not reducing the potential for violence from within, but rather, are showing millions of Muslims in Europe the way. The wrong way. And that is not going to stop in the United States.


so tell me, what's so offensive, RACIST, anti-Arab or anti-Palestinian about the above?

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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-26-09 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. 2 states for 2 peoples was not reasonable in the first place.
The only land which it was reasonable to establish a Jewish homeland on was a country where Jews formed a sizeable majority of the native population - which is to say, sadly, nowhere.

By now, enough Israelis have been there for generations that its continued existance is justifiable, but establishing a Jewish state in the Middle east was not reasonable in 47, and trying to prevent it was.

You're right that I'm not making myself as clear as I can about "root" vs "necessary to end". The root of the conflict was the initial occupation in 47; withdrawal to the Green Line would be sufficient to end it.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-26-09 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. it was reasonable to the leadership preceding Al-Hussayni
Edited on Fri Jun-26-09 06:53 AM by shira
It's interesting that you say a "sizeable majority" is required in order to have a homeland. Jews had a sizeable majority in many areas of the 1947 partition plan, including Jerusalem - and if it weren't for restricted Jewish immigration during the 30's (think the British White Paper), they may have had that majority.

Wow, you Brits really helped the situation by installing Al-Hussayni and putting the White Paper into effect, huh? :)

The fact is, both Jews and Arabs of that territory have a legit, historical claim to the land. Ergo, 2 states for 2 people.

Again, I don't see how you believe withdrawal to the '67 lines will sufficiently end this conflict, given that the conflict goes back to the 1920's and 30's (Hebron massacre, Arab riots.....not 1947). Can you explain that one? In fact, the League of Nations recognized a Jewish homeland 25 years before 1947.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-26-09 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. before I forget, please answer this one
You say any armed resistance against occupation is legitimate so long as it's aimed at the occupying forces or military. But that hasn't been the case the past 42 years, has it? So isn't this form of resistance ILLEGITIMATE?

Also, you say that Israel has no right to "defend" against terror attacks. Why not, if they're aimed at Israel's civilians? Am I to understand you're only against Israeli self-defense if LEGIT attacks were aimed only at the IDF?

Please clarify.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-26-09 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. There have been quite a few polls in Gaza and the West Bank...
Edited on Fri Jun-26-09 02:48 AM by LeftishBrit
and none suggest that a majority would prefer a continuation of the Occupation to a Palestinian state. The view exists; but it's hardly a majority view. It's just as much a distortion to assume this, as to assume the extreme opposite - that all Palestinians want to throw Israel into the sea. (Polls *do* certainly suggest that most Palestinians are dissatisfied with their current leadership and would prefer new leaders.)

There is one Arab group where a majority *do* want to continue under Israeli jurisdiction, but they are not Palestinians in the OTs, but Israeli Arabs in Israel proper. They should not be confused with the Palestinians from this point of view.

I don't think that an end to the Occupation would mean a miraculous end to Palestinian suffering. Countries released from external oppression do not always have a very good track record of immediately establishing freedom and peace and democracy. It can take a very long time, and some don't get there. But it would establish some real hope of improving their lives - and it would then be their own responsibility. British imperialists often used the excuse that 'these countries cannot govern themselves peacefully' - and in some cases this turned out true at least for a while, with civil war breaking out, or disastrous leadership taking over. But this did not in most views justify continuation of the Empire. (I do not consider the OTs as an Empire, but the same specific argument applies here IMO.)


I do think that many 'pro-Israel' and 'anti-Israel' people have their own agendas, which make them less than trustworthy to those they support. The Christian Zionists would soon throw Israel under the bus; so would most of the neocon-imperialists if they ceased to see Israel as a strategic asset to America. And there is NO doubt that many of the American xenophobic-isolationists would soon turn anti-Palestinian if there was ever a Palestinian state that depended on significant financial support from America.


ETA: I do think that EVERYONE has mistreated the Palestinians: Israel, much of their own leadership, and the Arab states. The Arab states are probably the ones who escape criticism for it the most.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-26-09 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. I'd like to see those polls
Edited on Fri Jun-26-09 06:24 AM by shira
And assuming you're right, it's really interesting that there's such a great discrepency between Israeli Arabs and Palestinians outside the green line. Could have something to do with WHERE they are being polled (in a free country under no fear or pressure as opposed to the polar opposite), but it also may be due to the effect of some people actually LIVING under a democracy vs. those who don't know what that's like.

Ergo, the solution....

...read "No Democracy For the Arab World" in post #29 to D.I.Rankin.

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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-26-09 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Here is a link to some recent polls
http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/palestinian_majority_favours_two_state_solution/

Interesting polls in many ways; but the most relevant here is Q 48. Most Palestinians wanted a 2-state solution; about a quarter a one-state solution. Just over 15% either wanted another solution or provided no solution. Even if we assume that ALL of these wished to remain under Israeli jurisdiction (which is unlikely, as some would have supported other uncommon ideas, e.g. reunion with Jordan; and others might have been simply unable to envisage a solution), it's still a small minority.

I haven't got a link to polls about Israeli Arabs at the moment, but they tend to show at least three quarters wanting to continue in Israel, even if a new Palestinian state is created.

I don't think that these results are so surprising, or need to be interpreted otherwise than that most people, except under extreme circumstances, choose to continue as citizens of the country where they were born/ grew up. For example, most Israelis want to continue living in Israel. Most British or American Jews, while they tend to support Israel's existence and the 'right of return', nevertheless want to continue as British or American citizens, rather than move to Israel even though they can. Most British people of Indian descent want to continue as British citizens; most Indian citizens want to continue as citizens of an independent India; neither group (nor indeed most white British people nowadays) wants to return to the days of the British Empire.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. No one is defending Saddam!
I have occasionally seen mirror-image-ist defences of various RW opponents of Bush, from Ron Paul to Ahmadinejad. But not often; and I don't think Saddam has ever been one of them.

Opposing the Iraq war doesn't mean thinking Saddam is a good guy.
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Dick Dastardly Donating Member (741 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. please explain??? n/t
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Indenturedebtor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-19-09 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
5. Just as soon as you pony up for all those scuds heh
Funny lol.
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aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-29-09 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
35. Iraq has no right to reparations whatsoever from Israel.
Iraq was at war with Israel by Iraq's own choice and declaration. The Osirak nuclear reactor was a legitimate military target for several reasons, number one the likelihood that it was being used for weapons research and/or manufacture. After the fact UN resolutions can't change those facts. The Iraqis have no case except in the anti-Israel community.
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