GREEK MP RETURNS WINE GIFT TO ISRAELI EMBASSY

[ensho]

http://intifada-palestine.com/2010/01/25/greek-mp-returns-wine-gift-to-israeli-embassy/


The deputy prime minister of Greece has sent back to the Israeli Embassy in Athens three bottles of wine given to him as a gift, because they were produced in the Golan, which “belongs to Syria” and is “illegally occupied.”

-snip-

In a letter sent to the embassy with the returned wine, Pangalos said he was taught not to steal and not to accept products of theft.

“I have been taught since I was very young not to steal and not to accept products of theft,” he wrote. “So I cannot possibly accept this gift and I must return it back to you.

“As you know, your country occupies illegally the Golan Heights who belong to Syria, according to the international law and numerous decisions of the international community,” Pangalos added.
-snip-
------------------------------

[proteus_lives]

1. What an asshole.

[Behind the Aegis]

2. May inspire a new phrase...

"Beware of Greeks returning gifts." ;)

[proteus_lives]

3. Ok, that was a good one!

:rofl:

CNN: "Israel returns copy of My Big Fat Greek Wedding to Greece."

[Violet_Crumble]

4. No, they weren't...

Did you read the article at all? There was a very specific reason that was returned, and I can't see why anyone would have any problems with it the way you and bta do...

[Behind the Aegis]

5. Try not making up people's positions.

You claim you don't like when people do it to you, so live by your own request.

[Violet_Crumble]

6. I'm not.

If you think I am, please explain what yr opinion is about the refusal of that gift, because you appear to be agreeing with proteus with that rather pathetic post you did...

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

8. I figured you wouldn't say what yr opinion was about the OP. How predictable...

And yr post was silly. There's nothing in the way of a personal attack in that, as I see you telling other DUers constantly that what they've said is silly etc...

btw, just because I think yr attempt at humour was pretty lame doesn't make me humour deprived. After all, I laugh at you an awful lot :)

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

10. Are you going to say what yr opinion of the OP is?

If not, I can't see any point in this exchange continuing.


btw, if you believe any of my posts have broken the rules, hit alert on them...

[Behind the Aegis]

11. I see it as a non-issue.

So, there goes your "theory."

[Violet_Crumble]

12. Do you think it was acceptable to return the gift or not?

Sorry, I should have worded my question with much more care...

[Behind the Aegis]

13. Don't have enough information, so it is a non-issue.

[Violet_Crumble]

14. How much information do you need on something for it to stop being a non-issue?

on edit - inserted missing 'to' in post title...

[Behind the Aegis]

15. Does he return all gifts from occupied places or just Israeli-occupied ones.

[Violet_Crumble]

16. Who knows? Maybe you should write to the Greek foreign ministry and ask...

It really has no impact on whether or not it was acceptable to return that gift...

[Behind the Aegis]

17. To me, it does and that is what you asked.

[Violet_Crumble]

19. Why does it have an effect on whether the gift should have been returned or not?

It's not acceptable to return it if there's no precedents of occupying countries having returned gifts made in territory that the country is occupying, but it is acceptable to return it if there is?

[Behind the Aegis]

20. Hypocrisy.

[Violet_Crumble]

22. It'd be hypocritical to find it acceptable only if a precedent has been set...

Whether or not it's acceptable to return a gift like that doesn't change depending on what's happened in the past. There always has to be a precendent set at some point, and it's not hypocritical to set precedents..

on edit- fixed horrible grammar in title, and added this following bit... Also, I think there's a responsibility on countries that give gifts to others to ensure that the gift they're giving isn't going to be found offensive or cause insult in any way....

[Behind the Aegis]

23. It is hypocritical to return an Israeli gift, but not do the same from Turkey, China, etc...

...if said gifts were also made in occupied territories. However, since I don't know if that is the case or not, it is a non-issue to me and nothing more than silly propaganda.

[Violet_Crumble]

24. It can be hypocritical, but that doesn't mean the gift from Israel should be accepted...

It should have been returned, as should any gift made in occupied territories. I hope you can agree with me on that...

[Behind the Aegis]

27. .

[Violet_Crumble]

28. I've done some more reading on this incident...

From what I've read, it was more a personal christmas gift from the Israeli ambassador to a Greek member of parliament and it does look like it was a cheery sort of gift given with the best of intentions. I've also read the entire letter from the recipient and given that it was a more personal gift than I thought, find the latter parts of that letter makes him an arsehole as far as I'm concerned, not for returning the gift (I'm strongly opposed to anything that's made in occupied territories), but for the Holocaust and Hitler comparisons. Here's the letter in its entirety:

Dear Mr. Ambassador,

Thank you for the 3 bottles of wine that you sent me as season’s greetings. I wish to you, your family and everybody in the Embassy a happy new year. Good health and progress to you all.

Unhappily, I noticed that the wine you have sent me has been produced in the Golan Heights. I have been taught since I was very young not to steal and not to accept products of theft. So I cannot possibly accept this gift and I must return it back to you.

As you know, your country occupies illegally the Golan Heights which belongs to Syria, according to the International Law and numerous decisions of the International Community.

I take the opportunity to express my hope that Israel will find security within its internationally recognized borders and the terrorist activities against Israel territory by Hamas or anybody else will be contained and made impossible, but I also hope that your government will cease practicing the policy of collective punishment which was applied on a mass scale by Hitler and his armies.

Actions such as those of these days of the Israel military in Gaza remind the Greek people of holocausts such as in Kalavrita or Doxato or Distomo and certainly in the ghetto of Warsaw.

With these thoughts allow me to express to you my best wishes for you, the Israeli people and all the people of our region of the world.

Athens, 30/12/2008

Theodoros Pangalos, Member of Parliament (Greece)

[proteus_lives]

30. Even more of an asshole.

Anyone who thinks Gaza is comparable to the Warsaw ghetto has their head up their ass.

[Ken Burch]

34. Question regarding gifts made in occupied areas and how this pertains to Turkey

The only places Turkey occupies at this point are part of Cyprus and part of Kurdistan. Is ANYTHING actually made in those areas?

[Behind the Aegis]

35. Yes.

[Ken Burch]

40. OK.

n/t.

[Violet_Crumble]

36. Of course something would be made in those areas...

There's not many areas at all that don't produce anything.

While I came to the conclusion the gift returner was a bit of a wanker, it's even more wankerish for anyone to carry on as though he shouldn't have returned it at all. There's such a thing as freedom of choice, and what made him a wanker wasn't the return of the gift, but the letter that accompanied it...

[Ken Burch]

39. But,,,did he wank ON the gifts before returning them?

That would TRULY make him a wanker.

(Seriously, though, from what I'd heard, Turkish Cyprus is basically an economic dead zone. If that's wrong, I stand corrected.)

[proteus_lives]

18. Yeah, I did.

He's still an asshole.

He's calling Israel a thief, which is bullshit.

Yeah, Israel was sooooo wrong in the '67, they should have been good little Jews and allowed the Syrians to continue shelling them from the Golan Heights.

[Violet_Crumble]

21. No, he's not an arsehole...

For goodness sake, that territory is occupied by Israel and he's right - it is a form of theft.

btw, why are you suddenly bringing Jews into the conversation? Trying to equate Jews with Israel is against the forum rules...

[proteus_lives]

25. Why should Israel give them up?

What does Syria give up? Why does Israel have to sacrifice it's security when Syria doesn't?

I'd support a UN occupation of the Golan Heights but giving them back to Syria? No, that's just putting another knife to Israel's throat.

Fine, "I guess they should have been good little Israelis and allowed the Syrians to keep shelling them from the Golan Heights."

[Violet_Crumble]

26. Because international law doesn't accept the legality of territory obtained in war...

Huh? Why does Syria have to give up anything? That makes no sense. Is Syria occupying part of Israel that no-one else is aware of?

Yr last sentence also makes no sense. I'm not arguing that Syria should be allowed to shell Israel from the Golan, and as far as I'm aware the diplomat in the OP doesn't either..

[proteus_lives]

29. If Israel gives them back it will be the same as after they withdrew from Gaza.

Rockets and attacks.

Returning the Golan Heights would only work if a peace treaty is signed and the area completely demilitarized and occupied by a UN force. If that happens then yes Israel should return the Golan Heights.

"Why does Syria have to give up anything?"

Well, if they stop supporting Hezbollah then they don't have to give up anything.

Why should Israel give up security without peace?

[Shaktimaan]

41. Doubtful.

I don't think that the situation with gaza can be compared with Syria. I seriously doubt that syrias govt would suddenly decide to attack Israel just because they got the golan back. And it isn't like lebanon where there's an extremist group that works outside of the govt with the power to start launching rockets. So in all likelihood it wouldn't jeopardize israels security to relinquish the golan.

That said, they still shouldn't without a peace treaty. The issue being discussed here isn't Israeli control of the area though. It is about israels seeming annexation of the land. Big dif between holding land and moving your population there, making it a defacto part of yr country. One is legal and ethical. One is illegal and generally considered unethical. Israel is right to hold onto the land until a peace deal is signed. But it isn't justifiable to build settlements there.

[Douglas Carpenter]

31. Bill Clinton: Israel-Syria peace deal could be reached within 35 minutes

Bill Clinton: Israel-Syria peace deal could be reached within 35 minutes

"A peace agreement between Israel and Syria could be reached within 35 minutes, former U.S. president Bill Clinton told the Lebanon-based Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper in an interview published Sunday.

Clinton said Israel and Syria were very close to reaching an agreement in 1998, adding that an accord could be reached assuming Iran does not play a role in the issue."


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/848517.html

However, there is a major problem. There are approximately 20,000 Israeli settlers in the Golan Heights. With plans to double the number to 40,000. It would take a fair amount of political will to change that agenda and even more to move the settlers. It's not impossible, but it could be very difficult.

From Washington Post:

Golan Heights Land, Lifestyle Lure Settlers
Lebanon War Revives Dispute Over Territory

By Scott Wilson
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, October 30, 2006; Page A01

snip:"The pace has picked up in recent years. Now, for the first time, the number of Jewish settlers in Golan may soon exceed the nearly 20,000 Arab residents whose families remained here after the war. The milestone may have already been passed, Arab leaders concede, with 400 Jewish families moving into Golan each year.

Since the Lebanon war ended on Aug. 14, settler leaders have launched a $250,000 advertising campaign to attract young Israelis with the lure of free land and a lifestyle ethic that blends Marlboro Country, Napa Valley and the X Games. Their goal is to double the Jewish population in Golan to 40,000 within a decade through an appeal that emphasizes cowboy hats over skullcaps"

link to full article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/29/AR2006102900926.html

All proposals regarding a withdrawal from the Golan assume a large array of early warning systems. and a large demilitarized zone - both of which would be under international or perhaps even American control. It appears that Syria would be quite willing to accept this in exchange for a full peace and full diplomatic relations with Israel along with an end to any support either side might give to armed groups hostile to the other side.

I can think of five very real incentives for Israel to normalize relations with Syria:

1. A broad regional peace agreement would be impossible without it.

2. It would greatly weaken the influence of Iran. Syria is Iran's only state allie in the Arab world.

3. It would mean the end or at least dramatic reduction in Syrian support for Hamas and Hezbollah including much Iranian support via Syria for Hamas and Hezbollah.

4. It could also likely, in fact probably mean the normalization of relations with Lebanon.

5. Syria is still a pivotal and influential country in the Middle East. Normalized relations between Syria and Israel would have the potential for opening up a great deal of commercial exchange and open movement of goods services between not only Israel and Syria, but Israel and the wider Arab world including the much more prosperous Gulf states.


===============


I believe that it would be only about a three or four hour drive between Jerusalem and Damascus or Jerusalem and Beirut for that matter - if such movement was allowed. The commercial implications of this would be enormous.

It is accepted as a given than a withdrawal from the Golan would include a network of early warning systems and international monitors along with a workable arrangement on water usage.

There is no way that the Gulf states such as Kuwait, the UAE or Bahrain would ever normalize relations before Syria does. These are all places only about a one to one and a half hour flight from Tel Aviv or about twelve hours by land travel, small but wealthy countries with enormous economic resources and their own gateway free trade zones. Again the commercial implications of this would be enormous.

Syria is to a large degree still stuck in a Soviet era time warp, They very much do want to joint the international world. They have a very strong incentive for wanting to make a peace agreement - however it would be unthinkable that Syria would agree to this without an Israeli withdrawal from the Golan. They have a very strong domestic state security apparatus. They would have both the incentive and the ability to control anyone from within their border who might want to disrupt a peace agreement.

[shaayecanaan]

33. Moshe Dayan on the Golan Heights

The kibbutzim saw the good agricultural land ... and they dreamed about it... They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land... We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was...The Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us.

* On pre-1967 clashes with the Syrians, in a 1976 interview with Rami Tal, as quoted in The New York Times and Associated Press reports (11 May 1997)

[unabelladonna]

32. what a boor

is he supposed to be a diplomat? israel won the golan in a war started by syria.

[Violet_Crumble]

37. A basic knowledge of international law can be really handy...

The acquisition of territory in war is no longer allowed. So anyone who treats warfare like its some game where Israel gets to win cool prizes like more territory really need to go and read UN242 which expressly states that.

[Kltpzyxm]

38. What an asshole

No wonder Greece's economy is in the toilet.