This Light Is Always Red

[ConsAreLiars]

From http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=51951

By Jerrold Kessel and Pierre Klochendler


The 1,200 villagers who carry Palestinian identity papers have no way of crossing the barrier to leave the village. That's a privilege reserved for the 1,800 who hold Israeli identity cards. They can cross the fence by foot, in principle. But even that can be daunting. This is Jerusalem's backyard, the backyard of Israel's occupation of East Jerusalem. Alongside the traffic light, the improvised sign reads: 'Driving permitted on green alone'. But the light is always red.
....
Volunteers from the NGO, MachsomWatch (Checkpoint Watch), an Israeli women's group that monitors checkpoints, report several incidents in which pregnant women and sick infants were held up for long periods by the Israeli border guards. "They did so for absolutely no reason," Shulamit, one of the 'watchers', told IPS. "I saw instances where women were not even allowed to pass on foot. They had to do a major roundabout detour to the hospital through the Palestinian- controlled area of the West Bank on the far side of the security wall. That takes hours."

Ziad, a resident of Sheikh Sa'ad, recalls another case when a villager had suffered a heart attack. "We called the ambulance. It took quite a while to reach the checkpoint. Even then the guards weren't prepared to let it through. A paramedic asked to cross by foot. The guards refused even that. Eventually, he was told he could go through on his own without any of the equipment in the ambulance. By the time he finally reached the man, he'd already passed away."

Regular health and education facilities are available to the residents of Sheikh Sa'ad, but only in Jabel Mukaber. That means they can't reach them. Some of the homes in Sheikh Sa'ad are technically defined by Israel as part of Jerusalem, part of the area it annexed 43 years ago. That makes residents liable to municipal taxes. Yet they cannot drive into town - their own town by the Israeli tax book - to pay such taxes.

[Chulanowa]

1. Oh, they had a reason for holding those ladies up...

The women were arabs. That's all the excuse Israel needs to do anything. Arabs are dirty smelly money-grubbing conspiratorial blood-drinking rapists with big... beaky... hey wait a minute...

[ConsAreLiars]

2. Channeling some of those who for some reason are still undeaded here.

They learned, with some guidance and help, to not say what they obviously believe or get offed, get a free pass, when the mask slips a bit. Still here, hundreds of rules violations ignored, and you summarize that approved POV accurately.

[regnaD kciN]

3. Yep...I'm almost waiting for some knee-jerk Israeli apologists here...

...to start producing quotes to that effect from The Protocols of the Elders of Mecca. :eyes:

[ConsAreLiars]

4. Those types have learned that replying to their own garbage keeps it kicked to

the top. so they avoid fact based information because seeing facts here is the very last thing on their wish list.

[Shaktimaan]

7. Awesome!

So if someone supports Israel it must be because they avoid factual information to preserve their prejudicial worldview. They hate reading facts because anything written regarding this conflict that's accurate always supports your understanding of the situation and oppose theirs.

It's just not feasible that in a conflict as long and complex as this one there might be informed and educated people whose opinions legitimately diverge from your own, right? If those people don't respond to you it can only be because they are afraid of all your facts.

:sarcasm:

Okay, before you get off your high horse, consider something. This conflict is of a sufficient complexity that whole dissertations have been written about single events. Compared to actual scholars who study this stuff, you and I know absolutely nothing about the subject. Yet, among those who do exactly that there is considerable disagreement as to who should be considered ethically and legally responsible for what, and especially as to what a "just" solution would entail. So if you really believe that no one else knows the facts except for those who agree with you, then consider the likelihood that you might know less than you previously thought.

[shaayecanaan]

14. Most conflicts are complex...but the truths remain the same

During the invasion and white settlement of North America, native American groups often fought on the side of the white settlers and many Indian tribes fought each other to the point of one tribe being completely exterminated. Territorial claims were often in a great state of flux. Numerous atrocities were committed by Indian fighters both towards white settlers and other tribes, including the killing of children. Geronimo, the famous Apache chief, said in later life he would wake up groaning in misery when he remembered the "helpless little children" that he had killed, although certainly the white settlers tended to exaggerate their claims.

Nevertheless, the conquest of America can be adequately summed up as an episode of white people murdering Indians and stealing their land. While there may have been murder and theft going the other way, the murder and theft by the whites was simply on a different scale. The simplification is justified.

You can make the same argument in respect of South Africa. In truth, the bloodiest battles in South African history were fought amongst whites and blacks rather than between them - the Boer War and the Difaqane are prime examples. Again, however, the premise that white South Africa was founded on white theft and murder is no less true.

Israel, like any other state, was founded on theft and murder. Perhaps no more so than average. Perhaps in the case of Israel the murder and theft was sanctioned by the UN or the British. Perhaps the theft was not on so great a scale given the small amount of land involved. But to the people whose land was stolen the fact that this was, by historical standards, only a relatively small theft is probably of little consolation.

The fact that there were some Jews in the West Bank in 1947 (a very small number in comparison to the Arabs in Israel proper) and that there may have been losses of land amongst Jewish Palestinians (again much smaller), and that up to 6% of Israel may have been purchased rather than stolen, and that most of Palestine in 1948 was "commons" rather than private property does not detract from the overall truth that the establishment of Israel was an act of theft by Jew against Arab.

Again, I do not contend that Israel is any worse than average in this regard. I simply submit that it should be treated like any other country, and that its interests and ambitions are no loftier than anyone else's. The essential difference between our "worldviews" is that you still consider the establishment of Israel to be a moral enterprise.

[Shaktimaan]

5. Lovely...

...boil down one of the world's most complex and intractable conflicts to an issue of racism.

Because clearly that's what this is all about. The Israelis are racist. If not for that this whole conflict could be wrapped up in a matter of hours.

:sarcasm:

Seriously, making comments like that serves to do nothing but distract from the actual issues at hand. Interestingly, the members of MachsomWatch dedicated to raising awareness of checkpoint violations are not only obviously Israeli but usually themselves IDF veterans.

Incidentally, what was this post supposed to mean exactly? You used common stereotypes of Jews to refer to what Israelis supposedly think of Arabs, but since those stereotypes aren't commonly used to describe Arabs it didn't make much sense to me. It reads like you're saying, "Oh wait! That's funny because the things the Israelis hate about the Arabs are what everyone else hates about the JEWS!" I mean, I know you didn't mean it as an anti-Semitic joke, it just doesn't seem to register for me any other way.

[shaayecanaan]

6. Well its a little bit rich to...

accuse others of playing the race card and then put in a throwaway accusation of antisemitism at the end of your post.

[Shaktimaan]

8. How did I know?

Sigh. I really almost left that last bit off because I realized that despite making sure to articulate my understanding that his comment was surely NOT intended to be anti-Semitic, I would nonetheless be accused of exactly that. It looks like it took less than ten minutes though, which even I didn't expect.

I made sure to point out that I wasn't accusing anyone of anti-Semitism. My point was that his joke was unsuccessful because that's how it ended up reading. NOT that the joke was ACTUALLY a stereotypical crack at the expense of Jews. I even made sure to place the sarcasm icon so it would refer solely to the first paragraph, leaving ONLY that one other comment beneath it, so there could be no misunderstanding about whether I was being sarcastic.

So what's up? Were you really confused about what I meant? Were you just so excited to make this point that you failed to read my comment carefully enough? Really, what's the story here, because I most certainly did NOT do what you are suggesting.

[shaayecanaan]

9. Well...

"I know you didn't mean it as an anti-semitic joke, but it doesn't register for me any other way"

which reads to me like "you're not racist but your statement is". In any event, I understood that the jibe was meant to be satirical, as did you as far as I can tell. I imagine most people would.

Either way, there are plenty of accusations of anti-semitism, both veiled and explicit, on this board and elsewhere, aimed at both people in particular and at Palestinians in general.

I generally tend to hold off on playing the race card until either it crosses a bridge too far *OR* an opposing poster starts firing off ad hominems of their own (antisemite, misogynist, etc). I figure once that happens its on for young and old.

[bemildred]

10. Bizarre thread.

Just saying.

[shaayecanaan]

11. Well, the routine threads on this board generally aren't worth bothering with (nt)

[bemildred]

12. True. nt

[ConsAreLiars]

13. Posting one rather obvious and common place and factual case does indeed

provoke some very bizarre replies. See here for the evidence. Facts often put some borderlines off into screaming idiot mode.

[bemildred]

15. I was mostly taken by the failure to even agree on the subject under discussion.

Except that there is a good deal or some sort of bigotry involved. Shaayecanaan at least seems to understand that it's not a ethnic trait, it's pretty common anywhere you go, and nobody is exempt from the charge, nobody gets a free ride.

I don't usually pay too much attention to IPS, but the OP is quite specific, so I expect there is something to it; and the Israeli government would do itself a favor if it put an end to this sort of idiocy.

[ConsAreLiars]

16. Attempts to divert the discussion to anything but the facts are a common tactic.

Some get sucked in, and the arguing that follows may (or may not) have some educational value, but the result is a diversion from the particular facts. You know the pattern. State sponsored raiders attack a ship on the high seas and kill 10 gets turned into debates about whether they deserved it because the dead had bad thoughts or not.

As for IPS News, it is certainly a liberal, lefty, progressive, anti-corporatist, feminist, humanist, third world-ist or whatever site, and the stories it cover present that side of the news, just as the corporate owned and operated media present their side. Remember, during the agitprop promotion of the invasion of Iraq, there were, as best I recall, 3 anti-mass-murder voices aired by them against 1000 pro-butchering advocates in the corporate media. No idea if IPS was going then, but the ratio, I'm sure, would have been reversed. Maybe zero pro-slaughter voices. It's a matter of which side one is on, IPS presents the news the corporate side will maybe occasionally give one slanted sentence.

There is much going on in the world beyond celebrity gossip and DC bickering. I strongly recommend IPS News to anyone who wants to see more than the usual crap: http://ipsnews.net/

[bemildred]

17. Sorry, not meaning to single IPS out, or suggest anyone avoid them.

It is indeed true that mere noise will serve ones purpose nicely if one wants to prevent someone from having their say.