Amid Egypt's border easing, Gazans feel rare hope

[bemildred]

Reporting from Rafah, Gaza Strip—
Egypt eased border restrictions for residents of the Gaza Strip long bottled up by an Israeli-led blockade of the seaside enclave in another potent sign of the changes shaking the status quo across the Middle East — and pressing Gaza's ruling militant group, Hamas, toward moderation.

A rare mood of optimism reigned Saturday at the Rafah border crossing into Egypt, where hundreds took advantage of new, relaxed rules they hope will mark the end of the blockade imposed after Hamas seized control of Gaza in 2007.

With almost an equal number of journalists on hand, anxious Gazans, many with suitcases and children in tow, made the journey in a convoy of buses.

"It seems things are finally changing for the better," said Zahara Abu Naji, at age 56 preparing to leave Gaza for the first time in her life. She was on her way to visit her husband in Algeria, whom she hasn't seen in a year.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-gaza-hope-20110529,0,1778726.story

[oberliner]

1. In Gaza, support for Hamas is plummeting

Excerpt for those who don't get around to reading the whole article:

In Gaza, support for Hamas is plummeting, recent polls show — notably among young people, who have been in the forefront of recent democracy movements around the region.

Three-fourths of Gaza youths ages 18 through 29 support "regime change," according to Palestinian pollster Khalid Shikaki. "Hamas has lost the youth who put them in power," he said. In March, several thousand youths protested in support of reconciliation, briefly clashing with security forces.

Privately, one Hamas official acknowledged that Gaza residents blame the group for worsening poverty and international isolation. He said Hamas would garner less than one-third of the vote if elections were held today.

<End of Excerpt>

There are some other interesting quotes about Hamas from some folks in Gaza included in the piece.

[bemildred]

2. I thought it was a good article,

On the ground reporting is so much more informative.

[Never Stop Dancin]

3. what is really needed...

Is for the border to open to the NORTH, if you believe as we do that the only way to true peace is a regional Israeli Trance music festival featuring Palestinians and Israelis together...100 beats per minute....500 BPM...1000 BPM?!? Can you keep up?

The gift Tel Aviv gives to the world is a non-stop club scene and total freedom to get loaded. That's the power and the promise of Tel Aviv.

So visit or make aliyah today to experience one of the best party scenes currently available on the planet. Oh, and you can ditch that DanceSafe testing kit before you board El Al--yes, that's right, only 100% pure, unadulterated ecstasy tablets in Israel! So don't worry, be happy!

Visit or make aliyah TODAY!

[Recursion]

10. Like I kept saying, open up the strip and support for Hamas will fall

The blockade does nothing but empower Hamas.

[oberliner]

4. Why were there so few people?

From another thread:

All Quiet in Rafah: Egypt's Gaza Border Opens Not with a Bang but a Whisper

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20110531/wl_time/08599207464200

[Never Stop Dancin]

5. because

they already have enough stuff in the Gaza by now to build the suitcase nuke

[Jefferson23]

6. Egypt opens a new front

By Victor Kotsev

TEL AVIV - Many hailed Egypt's opening the Rafah crossing into Gaza on Saturday as a historic move. Such it may well be, but its real significance is not that it strengthened Hamas or that it delivered a slap in the face to Israeli and American policies.

There is some reason to believe that its timing was chosen to express Egypt's dissatisfaction with the glamorous spectacle, starring Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and United States President Barack Obama, which took place a week or so ago. <1> But this is little more than a petty auxiliary intrigue. The real question, as I have argued several times previously, is whether Egypt is prepared to take responsibility for the Gaza Strip, and whether Israel has any impetus to force it to do so.

To be sure, the Palestinians and their allies celebrated the opening of the crossing. Hamas lauded the "courageous and responsible decision
which falls in line with Palestinian and Egyptian public opinion". Residents of Gaza marked the "start of freedom", as one woman put it to The New York Times.

The Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, whose reconciliation with Hamas triggered off the opening of the crossing, also welcomed the move. Yet there was little trace of the victory celebrations that followed far less auspicious recent events such as the end of Israel's Operation Cast Lead in 2009 and last year's bloody confrontation at sea between Israeli commandos and pro-Palestinian activists seeking to breach the Israeli blockade.

The international community responded with cautious optimism. The European Union "welcomed" the opening, even though as a violation of the Rafah agreement of 2005 <2> it contradicted previous EU policies. The Rafah agreement has been inactive for several years following Hamas's takeover of Gaza in 2007.

Israel protested mutely; <3> previously, Israeli officials expressed fears that "Opening Rafah would help Hamas build a formidable terrorist military machine" (to quote a Jerusalem Post article dated a month ago). However, reports suggest that the Netanyahu government was actually pleased by the development.

"Paradoxically, security officials in Israel are satisfied with the opening of the Rafah Crossing," Alex Frishman wrote in the Israeli news site Ynet. "Nobody will say it out loud, yet in internal discussions at the highest levels we see a sense of relief in the face of the unilateral Egyptian move. Officials are saying that we may finally be moving towards full disengagement from the Gaza Strip." <4>

A number of prominent Israeli analysts, furthermore, have opined that the Jewish state benefits from Egypt's decision. Their main arguments are that Israel's security would not be harmed, since the move only ads an official seal to a reality that has been established on the ground for several years by the hundreds of underground smuggling tunnels that connect the Strip to the Egyptian Sinai Peninsula, and that Israel would now be able to practically dump responsibility for Gaza on Egypt.

"For all intents and purposes, the opening of the crossing spells the end of Israel's closure of the Strip," Avi Issacharoff and Amos Harel wrote in Israeli daily Ha'aretz . <5>

The Israeli government is unlikely to disengage from Gaza in the immediate future, mostly for fear of compromising security and the already-strained relationship with Egypt. However, while officials remain tight-lipped, they clearly are not averse to the idea. Even controversial Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, who is often portrayed by Israeli and foreign media as a right-wing loose cannon, played with it last summer. <6>

I argued then that this was a petty attempt by Lieberman to get back at Netanyahu during a temporary falling out between them, and that its goal was to rattle slightly Netanyahu's relationship with then-Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak by implicitly advocating the so-called "Egyptian option" that has gained traction with some Israeli right-wing circles in the past few years. (Essentially dumping Gaza on Egypt). <7>

After the Arab uprisings and Mubarak's ouster earlier this year, everything changed. As many an analyst's eyes turned to Jordan, where the majority of the population is Palestinian, the parallel "Jordanian option" (establishing a Palestinian state in Jordan and parts of the West Bank) gained limited prominence. Necessarily, this also buoyed discussions of the fate of Gaza, which is separated from the West Bank and Jordan by Israeli territory, and in the past months a few muted voices within the political establishment made the case for disengagement.

Oddly, Hamas also recently appeared to welcome full Israeli disengagement, perhaps hoping that it would avoid being subjected to Egyptian rule (something that is not imminent, anyway) and would instead strengthen and take root in the West Bank, piling pressure on Israel from two sides.

Some Israeli pundits have argued that a full disengagement from Gaza would give Israel a legal basis to use greater force in a future military conflict with Hamas.

"In February", according to the Jerusalem Post, "Hamas leader in Gaza Mahmoud al-Zahar called on Egypt to provide electricity and water to the Gaza Strip and to open the Rafah crossing to allow free movement of goods and vehicles to and from the territory."

Such a move could easily lead to a situation where Israel cuts off all connections to the Strip and leaves the responsibility to Egypt to prevent a humanitarian disaster there.

When I sat down with Gershon Baskin, a prominent Israeli peace activist, director of the Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information, and one of the architects of Palestinian President Mahmud Abbas' drive to seek independence at the United Nations in September, <8> he appeared dismissive of the idea of disengagement. He expressed his strong doubts that Israel would end its blockade, and claimed that Egypt would do its best to prevent taking responsibility for the strip.

Being forced to take responsibility for Gaza is Egypt's greatest fear, Dr Baskin explained, and pointed out that only human traffic is currently allowed into the Strip. In the past few years, the Mubarak government turned down several projects to use its territory in order to improve the situation in the Strip, and despite the opening of Rafah to human traffic, the overall policy is unlikely to change dramatically.

Among these projects was an American offer to build a water desalination plant for Gaza in northern Sinai and plans to use Egyptian ports as a trade outlet for the Strip; even ideas to use for the latter purpose a defunct Egyptian airport in close proximity to Gaza were apparently circulated. However, Baskin emphasized, the Egyptian government loudly proclaimed in the past days that Israel was still responsible for humanitarian assistance to the Strip.

It was the Palestinian reconciliation that triggered off the opening of Sinai to Palestinian civilian traffic (except for males aged 18-40, who need a visa to enter Egypt). For almost a month, Cairo delayed implementing the decision, and some Israeli analysts speculated that it had no intention to do so.

Last week, however, immediately following Netanyahu's trip to Washington, the interim Egyptian government finally set a date. In light of its hope to restart the peace negotiations, it is possible to read some frustration with both leaders' speeches behind the timing of the announcement.

Egypt's move, nevertheless, was likely primarily driven by domestic considerations. As American think-tank Stratfor explains:

in full: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MF01Ak03.html

[bemildred]

7. That was an interesting angle, the "who's responsible for Gaza" question.

I have doubts that it will actually be resolved any time soon, since Egypt is better served by ambiguity, and will most likely want something in return.

[Jefferson23]

8. Not quickly resolved, no. On so many levels Egypt holds much promise

not only for themselves, but imo, for the Palestinians. Egypt will demand to have a central role in the region, which
is very good but concern should be noted for any counter revolution that could undermine the people's desire. Once they
have the elections, things will hopefully be even more promising.

[pelsar]

9. they got it.....its not a question any more...

they've been mouthing the "we really care about the Palestinians" BS for so long, and now they have their own border with them.....and have declared publicly an opening of their border as per their own interests (as if it thats really changed).

well buds.....seems the US money, israeli threats to attack egypt (as per just a few of the lame excuses for excusing egyptian policy) can no longer be used. They have declared an independent policy and their opening and closing and restrictions are now publicly all their own. Any gaza problem, shortage or anything, travel restrictions can all be solved via the open egyptian border....

as far as any "counter revolution"....i have no idea what that means, i suspect the "peoples desire" will bring in the muslim brotherhood as they are the only real organized party and will probably be voted in by the people....

[Jefferson23]

11. The Mubarak bullshit is over, yes. A counter revolution's purpose

would be to undermine the interests of the Egyptian people, keeping the previous status quo alive,
at least in part. A percentage of people miss Mubarak's type of control.

You: "Any gaza problem, shortage or anything, travel restrictions can all be solved via the open egyptian border...."

Keep dreaming pelsar, the responsibility will not be owned solely by Egypt, as much as you may wish that to be.

[shira]

12. "...the responsibility will not be owned solely by Egypt..."

When was Egypt ever really held responsible WRT Gaza by "caring" individuals like yourself or human rights organizations?

[Jefferson23]

13. Inserting yourself here with no respect for the history in the region

is an unfortunate mistake on your part. Your response does not reflect anything about Mubarak's long history of "caring" along with
Israel's long history of "caring" for the Palestinian's.

[shira]

14. Still waiting for your answer.

Where were you vs. Egypt WRT speaking up for Gazans when Mubarak was in charge?

You only blamed Israel.

[Jefferson23]

15. You're not waiting for an answer, you're looking for excuses, for Israeli policy.

I don't have any of those for you.

A window opens, but Egypt refuses responsibility for Gaza
Mouin Rabbani

May 30, 2011

The Egyptian decision to permanently reopen the Rafah border crossing does not end the blockade of the Gaza Strip, but is nevertheless a highly significant development.

According to the new regulations, Rafah will operate for 12 hours, six days a week as a passenger terminal only. Men aged 18 to 40 will require permits to use the crossing and trade - the passage of goods and materials in commercial quantities - continues to be prohibited.

As limited as this relaxation may be, it will make a palpable difference to the population of the Gaza Strip, which for almost half a decade has been isolated from the outside world by the combined efforts of Israel and Egypt.

The blockade was never about preventing the flow of weapons or militants to the Gaza Strip. Following the American-sponsored 2005 Agreement on Movement and Access (AMA), Israel continued to exercise control over the border through EU surrogates - and Israel did not claim a single instance of illicit passage while the Europeans were permitted to perform their role. As Israel knew full well, Hamas and other Palestinian organisations met their needs through a combination of underground and naval smuggling routes augmented by local production.

Rather, as the Israeli rights organisation Gisha concluded on the basis of declassified Israeli documents, the blockade's purpose was to "paralyse normal life" in the Gaza Strip through "a policy of deliberate reduction for basic goods" such as fuel and flour - and outright prohibition on "luxury" goods such as pasta and paper. As expressed by Ariel Sharon's sadistic bureau chief Dov Weisglass in 2006: "The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger."



The motive behind taking the entire civilian population of the Gaza Strip hostage was to overturn the result of the 2006 Palestinian legislative elections won by Hamas and dislodge it from power. As an objective shared by the Palestinian Authority of Mahmoud Abbas and Egypt under Hosni Mubarak, it explained the latter's enthusiastic participation in the scheme.

Indeed, the brutalisation of the Gaza Strip became something of an international cause célèbre; in the aftermath of Israel's 2008-2009 assault on the Gaza Strip, the US Army Corps of Engineers and France helped Egypt construct a high-tech, "impenetrable" underground steel barrier to isolate it further - which was rather effortlessly punched full of holes by Gaza's resourceful tunnellers. Not to be outdone, Israeli naval commandos murdered nine foreign solidarity activists - six of them "summarily executed" in international waters, according to the UNHCR - to prevent the delivery of aid to the beleaguered territory. Incidentally, the UN secretary general Ban Ki-moon on Friday called on governments to use their powers to oppose further aid flotillas.



Yet the equation is clearly changing. With Mr Mubarak's overthrow, Egypt's policy towards the Palestinians is no longer the extension of Israeli and American priorities that it has been for three decades, reduced from a national cause to a security file. As the recent reconciliation agreement between Fatah and Hamas demonstrates, Cairo is once again marching to the beat of an indigenous drummer, its policies increasingly dictated by Egyptian rather than Israeli-American interests.

Tellingly in this respect, Egypt did not invite the EU to resume control of the border crossing, instead treating this as a purely inter-Arab matter in which Europeans serving Israeli interests have no business interfering.

Yet the ascendancy of Egyptian priorities also explains why Cairo is unlikely to go very much further in lifting the blockade of Gaza than it already has. The viciousness of Mr Mubarak and his security chief Omar Suleiman's methods obscured what remains an Egyptian strategic priority: a refusal to once again assume responsibility for the Gaza Strip, and opposition to further fragmentation of the Occupied Territories and the nascent Palestinian polity.

By Egyptian calculations, the free flow of trade across Rafah while Gaza's crossings with Israel remain subject to Mr Weisglass's dietary restrictions would be tantamount to allowing Israel to export the entire territory - and the catastrophic crises it has engineered there since 1967 - to Cairo. It would furthermore serve Israel's objective of enhanced Palestinian fragmentation in order to prevent the emergence of a Palestinian state.

in full: http://www.thenational.ae/thenationalconversation/comment/a-window-opens-but-egypt-refuses-responsibility-for-gaza

[shira]

21. Or, what's more likely is that you believe Israel should take 100% blame...

...and that's why you and your ideological buddies never took Egypt to task for their role in the blockade.

It's what Arab regimes have been doing since at least 1948........"look over there at Israel, not us".

You've done their work for them, nice!

[Jefferson23]

23. Yea, Mubarak was a great guy, no one ever spoke a foul word about him.

Your remarks are plain silly, shira.

[shira]

25. When did you speak out against Egypt's blockade?

Why - when Israelis were shot at the border crossings as opposed to Egyptians who Hamas never attacked - did you not want more pressure put on Egypt to end the blockade?

[Jefferson23]

26. I don't have a calender date and time.

Ask yourself why Israeli's were shot, it's a religious based conflict in your estimation? Please stop the nonsense.

If Israel wants peace, so does most of the world.

64/19. Peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/6F2DF1FFB49D51AD852576C100537C1F

[shira]

27. That's what I thought. You're using Palestinians for political purposes...

....not out of any humanitarian concern.

If you thought the blockade was a humanitarian issue, you and your fellow critics would have expended just as much energy on Egypt as Israel.

That you thought criticizing Egypt more would ease some of the pressure aimed at Israel just exposes you more.

[Jefferson23]

29. Right, because Israel's hands have been tied by Egypt to end the occupation.

okey dokey shira.

[shira]

31. Imagine what the same amount of pressure on Egypt might have accomplished for Gazans...

With more pressure on Egypt - at least the same as that on Israel - maybe Gaza could have opened a couple years ago rather than a few days ago.

Your silence vs. Egypt did nothing to help those Gazans, did it?

[pelsar]

16. so whats more important to you...human lives or goods?

everytime israel opens its borders to let goods out, the potential for israeli's working the border to get killed is there (attacks on those very border posts have happened in the past and attempts in the present....

so why risk lives? The gazans are far less likly to attack the rafah border than israel.
_________

this is one of those moments i always like, when i get to read the "pretzel' like attempt to keep israel responsible at the expense of the Palestinians.

face it, if you have to chose between israel bringing in limited goods, even though it risk lives vs the safer unlimited rafah border, you prefer it come from israel.

that is the result of your statement.......once again we see how the Palestinians are being used to "get" back at israel.
_________


as far as your "counter revolution"
would be to undermine the interests of the Egyptian people
the muslim brotherhood is very much egyptian, and believes as do their members that they have the very core of the interests of the Egyptian people...and if they get their will, the lives of the other eypytians and those of the area will only get worse.... but hey, its their revolution and their "will of the people". (at least for generation one...next generation, as in iran, wont have the option).

[Jefferson23]

17. Yea, right, they want to attack just to attack. The pretzel you have

is of your own making pelsar. The counter revolution I referenced has nothing to do with
the Muslim Brotherhood.

In brief: The counter-revolution club
By Pepe Escobar

They are a shish kebab of hereditary monarchies, emirates and outright theocracies. Most sit on oceans of oil (45% of the world's reserves). They are addicted to the West's glitter and glamour - from London to Monte Carlo, from the delicacies of Paris to the weaponized delicacies of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO. They abhor democracy like they abhor poverty. Some would be glad to topple their own people - as indeed they do. And they view Shi'ite Iran as worse than the anti-Christ.

Welcome to the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC), formed in 1981 by top dog Saudi Arabia plus the United Arab Emirates (UAE), Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain and Oman. A more appropriate denomination would be Gulf Counter-Revolutionary Council - or club; a Gulf club to end all golf clubs. As far as the GCC is concerned, the great 2011 Arab revolt will triumph over their (wealthy) dead bodies.

in full: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/ME28Ak01.html

[pelsar]

18. so....explain then..

if israelis get attacked and killed in the past when opening up the borders to transfer supplies....and the egyptians aren't

doesn't it make the most sense to put the pressure on the egyptians to keep their borders as open as possible..of course that is assuming that one puts human iives as being the most important.

?????????????????????

of course you may have a different set of priorities that you are now invited to explain_____________________________

______________________

i would say that the "revolution" is simply being subtly hijacked by the MB......(ok not so subtle). Your "counter revolutionary club", an interesting read, btw, is simply the elites hanging on to their jobs. I do agree with you that, they would probably prefer secular dictatorships as in mubarak, shah of iran, jordans king. But they can be pressured in to accepting western style democracies, if that was an option, However they wont even get that chance as MB might just pull of a "Khommeni" on them if they can get past the Egyptian army

[Jefferson23]

19. For one, I believe you have an inaccurate understanding of the

Muslim Brotherhood and what threat they pose for Israel. A cooperative dictator can be pressured yes, to go along
with the status quo and disregard the will of the people..the US and Israel would be more than pleased. Their version
of western democracy is perverted.

Israel needs to end the occupation pelsar, to presume ending this fairly would be a threat to Israeli's is simply crazy.
Egypt is not going to seek war with Israel yet at the same time they are not going to sit back as before.

I don't have a different set of priorities, two states, each viable. I don't see any evidence Israel wants
this to end unless they can have what they want much more than security....your government wants the land grab
to continue.

[Never Stop Dancin]

20. Please don't lecture me about terror

In 2001 we were trapped in our hotel room in Jerusalem, because of a suicide bomb in the neighborhood.

We had to cancel our plans for the evening, and we didn't even have any dope to calm our nerves because we had just arrived in country. The hotel was on lockdown.

So please don't lecture me about the impact of terror if you haven't lived it. You simply haven't been through what I have.

[King_David]

52. Which hotel? Citadel David or

My favorite The King David,near the City of David ?

My names not David btw, its Jonathan.

[pelsar]

22. the occupation has nothing to do with egypt and gaza...

egypt can either of its own accord or via pressure from within or without open up its borders and create a far more peaceful way to export and import supplies to the gazans-give them a better life by not being dependant upon israel.....its that simple.

you appear to be against it....i'm trying to learn why.....(actually you just don't want to say, but we all really know, don't we....)

--------------

and the MB is hardly anything new....just a variation of hamas, hizballa, etc its all the same template.......

[Jefferson23]

24. The occupation has everything to do with Israel's concern

about security and it can end if your government wants it to..but they do not. They clearly
place their desire for more land above and beyond your security. Egypt's role will help the Palestinians
but Israel must do their part, and it will likely become more difficult for Israel to continue the
occupation depending on who the Egyptians elect.

I'm not going to argue about the Muslim Brotherhood, believe in whatever bad guy version you prefer.

on edit for clarity.

[shira]

28. Give it up with the "Israel wants more land" BS....that ended in the mid 90's

...when Israel went beyond Oslo and chose not to start any new settlements.

Since then Israel has offered to END both the occupation and settlements and the Palestinians have refused.

In fact, Israel gave up the Sinai, Gaza, and ended their Southern Lebanon occupation. It's a bald faced malicious lie to parrot the Hamas/PLO line that Israel just wants to "steal" more land.

[Jefferson23]

30. 64/19. Peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/6F2DF1FFB49D51AD852576C100537C1F

[shira]

32. You SERIOUSLY believe peace will break out once Israel retreats fully behind 1967 lines?

And you'd blame Egypt more for the blockade if Israel ended the occupation?

[pelsar]

33. are you pretending to be a politician?

why shouldnt egypt just open the border and take care of all the Palestinians import/export needs?

its safer for everyone involved....as well as being more efficient and no doubt the Egyptians won't have the restrictions of goods that israel has, hence their lives no doubt will improve.

why are you so against that?.............

_____

ok, i'll take a guess and you can tell me if i'm right or wrong:
Because if the Egyptians do open their border for Palestinians import and export and relieve israel of that responsibility then there is less pressure on Israel to remove the occupation, and that is not a good thing, hence its far better to have the Palestinians in gaza suffer under israeli restrictions for the good of the "whole movement", even if there is an additional option that would improve their lives.....

i.e. instead of having some of the lives of the Palestinians improve, live better more normal lives, its preferable that they all suffer.

how am i doing?

[Jefferson23]

35. I already told you why, you decided to ignore the reasons Israel

insists on continuing the occupation...their desire for land over security.

Egypt is not going to absorb Israel's responsibility, not in totality. I am more
than pleased to see what Egypt has done so far, but to suggest as you seem to be, the
Palestinians can now be their problem..that would be a hideously irresponsible
maneuver on Israel's part.

[pelsar]

36. keep the Palestinians "miserable club"

ok..i reread your posts for the millionth time. So its very clear to me now:
as your wrote Egypt shouldnt have a open border so that the problem with the Palestinians remains an israeli problem (as you wrote) and should not be solved by the Egyptians...even though they can certainly makes lives easier/better....BUT you dont want the Egyptians to make life TOO easier, because then that would mean that there is no longer a 'problem" for the gazans.

basically you want the egyptians to continue with their blockade on the gazans to ensure that their lives are not good, (just a bit improved), in order to keep the "problem" with israel.

jesus...welcome to the "lets keep all of the Palestinians lives miserable so that we can keep the pressure on israel" club. Is this a progressive policy or just your own?

[Jefferson23]

38. pelsar, you playing games here? I don't appreciate the words you

seem to extract from my responses...you know words like Israel's land grab as the reason they continue it, which jeopardizes security, and
the prospects for a viable state for the Palestinians.

You: what has the occupation of the westbank have anything to do with egypt advancing trade and easing the lives of the gazans to the point of a full open border?


Your questions can be answered by the fact the suffering of the Palestinians will not be relieved
by Egypt alone, that's why..you know this is not even remotely possible.

I'm not going to repeat again that I am pleased with what Egypt has done thus far, so stop with the
nonsense that I am insistent that Gaza continue to suffer...that would be your government and unfortunately mine
which continues it's highly toxic dysfunctional 'friendship' with Israel.

[pelsar]

39. its just a conclusion from your own words.....

you've made it clear that you do not want Egypt to have an open border with gaza where there is no restrictions on trade or people movement. (you can write it, this is only a forum, with no real consequences in real life)

I understand your position...this is a "you cant have your cake and eat it too" kind of thing;

if egypt has an open unrestricted border, the gazans will no longer be dependant upon israel, no longer in the news an no pressure/less pressure on israel...you don't like that. However if Egypt closes or restricts their border to the gazans they are in affect helping to keep the Palestinians lives miserable, and you don't like that either.

welcome to the real world, the world of limited options, you only get two here, so which do your prefer? (if there is a third you're welcome to add it, with its consequences of course)

1) Egypt restricts their border?

2) Egypt opens their border?

_________

my words cant get any simpler than the above.....the question is if your answer can be as clear.

[Jefferson23]

40. It's clear your comprehension is selective, continuing the occupation

for you is welcomed and Egypt can relieve some of the burden, all is well that ends well as long as
Israel can keep those settlers happy eh?

Good luck.

[pelsar]

42. you cant answer such a simple question can you?

why not?

my comprehension is pretty good,
whereas i am more than willing to answer any question in any scenario you can imagine, you can't.....

you simply cant accept the possible consequences for your beliefs, which ever way they may go, why is it so difficult?

egypt open the border?
egypt restrict the border?

which do you prefer?
_____

[Jefferson23]

44. I already answered your question several times, and the relief

Egypt is offering I am pleased with. This will not solve the problems of the occupation,
and you know it, just as you are aware of why Israel will not end it.

[pelsar]

45. so your for Egypt opening up the border...whew...

and the Palestinians of gaza should have their lives improved, no longer being dependant upon israel for anything as long as they play the political game correctly with Egypt.....

thats a good first step toward their independence. Will it affect the occupation of the westbank? maybe....depends upon a host of unknown factors, events, people etc
(and of course the mighty try to stop trying to kill us from gaza..but as their lives improve it might actually come to pass).

[Jefferson23]

46. IF you were honest, you would have acknowledged what I have said

about Egypt several posts ago. The remainder of your post, "no longer being dependant upon israel for anything as long as they play the political game correctly with Egypt....."

The Israeli government's wet dream, no responsibility for the occupation.


We're done here pelsar.

[pelsar]

48. so your agains egypt opening the border...

because you dont like the idea that israel is not responsible for the Palestinians of gaza....

its one or the other....
____________

i know what you wrote...you just don't like the conclusion of what you wrote, the consequences of an open border with egypt, infact you wont even mention the possible consequences...

[pelsar]

51. THATs IT---now i got it

The Israeli government's wet dream, no responsibility for the occupation.

it usually takes quite a few posts to get past all the usual "crap" to get down to your core issue. Of course you want egypt to open its borders BUT, not at the expense of the occupation. If the Palestinians in gaza are no longer occupied then that screws up your whole agenda.

wow!

of course why you want/need the occupation to continue in gaza is an interesting question. My take? its either the "all or nothing" mentality that has served the Palestinians so well over the years. OR

If gaza is no longer occupied as your wrote:
israel is no longer responsible....and i think that is what you don't want more than anything. Something along the lines that israel should not get off "scot free" and should be made to "pay for its sins". If gaza is no longer occupied, israel 'wins"

I think i'm getting closer now.....what do you think?

[shira]

54. He won't admit it and he knows he can't defend his view

Here is a thread in which Norman Finkelstein says Hezbollah has the "RIGHT" to target/bomb and collectively punish Israeli citizens....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x353433

Our friend can't admit that either and he still defends Finkelstein as though there's nothing wrong about his belief.

[shira]

55. Ironic, isn't it Pelsar? Jefferson23 is against collective Gaza punishment...

...but has no problem with Norm Finkelstein defending Hezbollah's right to collectively punish Israelis with missiles/rockets.

Then again, collective Gaza punishment is fine because he doesn't want to see Egypt ending the blockade, thereby alleviating Israel of its role in the occupation. If Gazans don't suffer because of Israel, that's not good....

:eyes:

[Jefferson23]

57. Hey now, you forgot the link to the conversation you're trying to twist.

I did appreciate you linking it in post# 54 but please do so consistently.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x353433


Carry on shira.

[shira]

58. Right on - keep rejecting the facts and pretending Norm really didn't say or imply that.

Just as you're really not saying/implying what Pelsar is interpreting from your views WRT Egypt/Gaza.

:eyes:

Again, if you can explain your views very clearly on each topic so that you can disabuse us of our interpretations then by all means go for it.....

We'll wait.

[King_David]

53. if they allow themeselves to think Egypt ended the blockade of Gaza

in their minds this would let Israel 'off the hook' and we absolutely can not do that.

What about all that effort? What about the flotilla's ? They are planned already!

[pelsar]

34. muslim brotherhood.is clear about their aims

the muslim brotherhood, like hamas and khomeni before them, have a very wonderful trait of basic honest as to their goals. Its part of them being religious. Just as Khomeni put in his version of a theocratic govt that has no patience for liberal ideas (they hung the liberals right after their revolution took control), just as hamas has been implementing shari law with its version of morality, so too does the muslim brotherhood have simaler plans.....as they have said in their very own words.

now why any progressive/liberal would back a group that openly declares that their morality includes such jucy items as FGM, honor killings, beheading the infidel, hanging homosexuals, sexual apartheid, etc i have no idea..and when its backed by god, liberals don't have much say, something by now that should have been noticed

i guess one can pretend that they "dont mean what they say" when they make it clear they believe in implementing shari law as the law of the land, but i'm not sure how that works....you believe they are lying?

or is it one of those things that says far more important than democracy, or civil rights is that the locals should be governed by the "tribe" that gains power...as long as its "local" and what they do with it, is their business.

(someone a very long time ago wrote in a forum about hussain, that he may be killing people, but its "his" people to kill, so its none of our business....i hadn't realized at the time, that, that was a progressive viewpoint).

[Jefferson23]

37. You have one convoluted mess here. To whom Egyptians trust

to elect is not for me to decide. If it were, ElBaradei would have my vote.

The Muslim Brotherhood After Mubarak

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/67348/carrie-rosefsky-wickham/the-muslim-brotherhood-after-mubarak?page=show

[pelsar]

41. its just an explanation...thats all

its not a matter of whether or not i like them....you just seem to be confused as to what their goals are.
_________________

now i shall explain to you the problem that is inherent when one says "its their election" as if an election defines what the "people want." incase you didnt notice the peoples will changes as we see in the various election over the years in western states: sometimes right, sometimes left, sometimes center.....the peoples will changes when policies work or dont work.

now, when the "people" vote in a group like hamas, MB, they are not voting in a, real democracy. Once they vote in a religious group that promotes religious fanaticism, and they get in, that is in effect the end of any beginnings of democracy. The "peoples will" is no longer relevant. Prime example is iran, seems the "people" tried for change and got shot down pretty quickly.



_____

btw i always love the articles of how this fanatical religious group has now been moderated etc...except that, it doesn't happen. They simply learn how to gain power, what they dont do is defy their own belief in their god and his commandments.

the MB has multiple factions, as do all political groups, that was the core of the article.
Still, it is unclear whether the group will continue to exercise pragmatic self-restraint down the road or whether its more progressive leaders will prevail.

what the author forgot to ask, was if they have changed their beliefs that shari law is the way to go....that is the real question, and the answer is no. (thats what defines the MB).

[Jefferson23]

43. You're certainly entitled to your opinion on the Muslim Brotherhood

but nothing you have said counters the OP with any substance.

I suggest you look up the definition of democracy and how it works. It is their election, unless you're suggesting
a form of election fraud, or some other form of corruption. You may not agree with their choice, but to claim it was
not legitimate is false.

[pelsar]

47. on the contrary....learn what constitutes a democracy....

its not just elections..that is the most obvious aspect. In fact if you read the polls from egypt you would learn that the egyptian people have absolutely no idea what a democracy is, you know the parts that talk about freedom of expression, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, to protest etc. The vast majority if i recall correctly are against those things.

if they elect the MB, just as the Palestinians elected hamas has nothing to do with corruption or not being legitimate..it has everything to do with ignorance and lack of education...

[Jefferson23]

49. Really, I would like to see this poll.

So the fact that the majority of Israeli citizens continue to vote in individuals who will not end
the occupation must not have a government that constitutes the definition of a democracy..ok pelsar. Or maybe it is
more reflective of their ability to soak up like a huge sponge all the fear mongering your government
spews, and that is why they keep voting in schmucks...you tell me.

[pelsar]

50. history....its important to read with an open mind....

israel votes in right or left depending upon events on the ground.....thats how democracies work. You'll notice that no party who advocates removing democratic values is lawful in israel. To assume that the israeli govt can tell us how to think is absurd, and ignores the israeli political history.....

but this kind of explanation only goes to two kinds of people: the ignorant or those who have a need to demonize us....others have the ability to recognize israel as a viable, working democratic country with an active public.
__________________________

again, reading history with an open mind as to why events occur is important for those who are actually interested in the why things happen as opposed to those who have an agenda and are less interested in understanding:

two examples:
intifada I brought in a left govt
oslo s failure brought in a right govt

etc etc etc

really pretty obvious for those who are interested..but here most aren't.
_________

as far as that egyptian poll:
http://rehmat2.wordpress.com/2011/05/12/poll-62-egyptian-favor-islamic-democracy/

you'll notice that they all want democracy, etc but then:
Whereas about 62 per cent think laws should strictly follow the teachings of the Quran


this is the one that i remember:
http://blog.goethe.de/transit/archives/126-Making-Sense-of-the-Pew-Poll-on-Egypt.html

These results match those of an earlier Pew poll conducted in the spring of 2010, a few months before the revolution – in that poll, no less than 95% of Egyptians felt that Islam should play a big role in politics, with almost half saying that Islam’s actual role in politics under Mubarak is too limited

real western democracy and strict religious teachings as law are contradictory.
______________________

if you have strict islamic teachings as law, there will not longer be democratic elections-god doesn't like taking those chances.

[Jefferson23]

56. Israel, right or left politicians in power continued to take more land from

the Palestinians. Kind of a vicious cycle, the more land confiscated the more it enrages your neighbor, then you take even more land
but now it's all about security..hmm.


You: "You'll notice that no party who advocates removing democratic values is lawful in israel. To assume that the israeli govt can tell us how to think is absurd, and ignores the israeli political history....."

The fear mongering, (and that is my opinion of what Israel feeds its citizens) makes no impression on Israeli's according to you. It's the facts
on the ground you say are the indicators of who gets voted in. That is interesting considering left or right politicians have taken more land, must be hard to reconcile for someone who does not support land theft, is that another democratic value, or would that be a religious based right to the land for some Israeli citizens, or maybe just raw unbridled nationalism...hmm

Talk to the Israeli settlers about that pelsar.

I believe Israel's history is very telling as well, their objectives were well defined.


Israel admits it covertly canceled residency status of 140,000 Palestinians
Document obtained by Haaretz reveals that between 1967 and 1994 many Palestinians traveling abroad were stripped of residency status, allegedly without warning.
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-admits-it-covertly-canceled-residency-status-of-140-000-palestinians-1.360935?utm_source=Mondoweiss+List&utm_campaign=c9c2b0cb66-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email


Thanks for posting the poll. I'm not sure why you interpret this as a negative. Your broad brush of skepticism seems to rest
on a presumption that any reference to the teachings of the Quran would poison their democracy. Nothing has even been drafted,
nor elections, and yet you're certain free speech will be compromised etc.

Reconcile what Netanyahu said on the floor of the Congress here in the United States recently and then try and tell me who uses religion when
it serves them. IMO, a secular government does not lose sight of an advantage by using any resource he can lay his hands on, God and the bible are often there for the taking.

Netanyau: "This is the land of our forefathers, the Land of Israel, to which Abraham brought the idea of one God, where David set out to confront Goliath, and where Isaiah saw a vision of eternal peace. No distortion of history can deny the four thousand year old bond, between the Jewish people and the Jewish land."


Under international law, Israel needs to correct this wrong, the peace process does not involve Egypt solving Israel's
land grab all these years, it is not even possible. The resolution had nothing to do with any country being
morally superior, but it does have everything to do with resolving the conflict for two viable states. As I have said,
Israel along with the assistance of their dysfunctional friend, the U.S., prevent peace.



Resolution adopted by the General Assembly



64/19. Peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine


** Demands, accordingly, that Israel, the occupying Power, comply with its legal obligations under international law, as mentioned in the advisory opinion rendered on 9 July 2004 by the International Court of Justice2 and as demanded in General Assembly resolutions ES-10/13 of 21 October 2003 and ES-10/15, and, inter alia, that it immediately cease its construction of the wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and calls upon all States Members of the United Nations to comply with their legal obligations, as mentioned in the advisory opinion;
http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/6F2DF1FFB49D51AD852576C100537C1F

[pelsar]

59. you dont seem to know much about religion in govt

Thanks for posting the poll. I'm not sure why you interpret this as a negative

i believe its negative because i believe free speech, freedom of expression is the bedrock of democracy and it should not be restricted.

when most of the people want stricter interpretation of religious law as the law of the land, its automatically restricts free speech, freedom of protest etc. such things as insulting islam would be illegal for one example. If you want examples just look at hamas in gaza or iran, or the taliban. You have to be willfully blind to believe that strict intrepratation of relgious law is compatible with democracy...show me an example where it doesnt affect democracy?

as far as the "fear mongering of the israeli govt: we just look at gaza and the constant attacks, 6000 missiles that were shot at us after we left. Our govt doesn't have to add anything,

_________
besides you cant even answer a question every israeli wonders: if we withdraw from the westbank and kassams start flying in from there...what are our options.
__________

start with that

[Jefferson23]

60. Yea, well like I said earlier, Egypt hasn't even had their elections yet

you seem certain of the outcome. Your poor interpretation and lack of appreciation for the Arab Spring
is evident here too.

I believe you miss the point about Netanyahu's speech and inserting religion when it serves you, who do you think he was giving a shout out too?

I doubt you're that naive, nor such a concrete thinker that you have failed to notice Israeli government policy and the settlers
who believe they are entitled to land due to the bible actually work off each other to meet the same end..the West Bank for their
state. Even though Israel has not adopted Jewish law as the law of the nation, I don't have to remind you that Israel doesn't have a written constitution per se. You're also prejudging Egyptians and at the same time express no mention of the religious parties in your government who try and influence Jewish Orthodox principles for the entire state. I don't think you're in a position to sound so smug, that's my point.

You look at Gaza and the constant attacks and you can't figure why this would happen to Israel? You honestly can't see an end to violence through a fair deal?

You can't fathom the hostility coming from those conditions in Gaza, the reaction to land theft and all the other outrageous behavior from
Israeli policy. If you desire security, you stop being the aggressor, you take the fair deal for two viable states and you stop claiming land
that isn't yours and stop claiming you need more for security..your government is crazy, crazy for land that is.

Snip* Sharon has repeatedly said the withdrawal would help consolidate Israel's control over large settlement blocs in the West Bank, where the vast majority of Jewish settlers live. New figures from the Interior Ministry show robust growth in these blocs.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,167143,00.html

Israel admits it covertly canceled residency status of 140,000 Palestinians
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-admits-it-covertly-canceled-residency-status-of-140-000-palestinians-1.360935?utm_source=Mondoweiss+List&utm_campaign=c9c2b0cb66-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email

In West Bank, Israel Sees Room to Grow
Government Moves Swiftly to Capitalize On Pullout From Gaza Despite Criticism

By Scott Wilson
Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, August 28, 2005
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/27/AR2005082701113_pf.html


Praying with Their Eyes Closed: Reflections on the Disengagement from Gaza
Sara Roy

snip* A Dubai on the Mediterranean?

It would be useful to consider what the Palestinians in Gaza have to work with to achieve success.


snip* As for the perimeter separating the Gaza Strip from Israel, a second fence is already under construction. This new fence is being constructed to the east of the existing fence on Israeli territory and creates a buffer zone around the Gaza Strip 70 kilometers long and several hundred metres wide. The fence will be augmented with a series of optical and electronic sensors that will indicate any attempts to cross it. “It will enable us to better prevent illegal entries of Palestinians from Gaza,” an Israeli Defence Force (IDF) source . . . “We are witnessing an increase in attempts to cross the existing fence around Gaza, though mostly by workers seeking employment rather than terrorists<.>”<12>

http://www.palestine-studies.org/journals.aspx?id=6525&jid=1&href=fulltext


Last night CBS's 60 Minutes aired a piece about Jerusalem. The city that will not be divided because of..you guessed it, the bible says so..at least for some. For others it's a convenient use of religion but the goal's do match up nicely. Yet the hypocrite you are, you sit in judgment
of the Egyptians Arab Spring before they even have elections.

Controversy in Jerusalem: The City Of David

This story was first published Oct. 17, 2010. It was updated on June 5, 2011.


Jerusalem is one of the holiest cities on Earth, for Jews, Muslims and Christians. It is also one of the most contentious issues between the Palestinians and the Israelis.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/06/05/60minutes/main20066909.shtml



The fair deal:

64/19. Peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine
http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/6F2DF1FFB49D51AD852576C100537C1F

[pelsar]

61. your point is way off...

You're also prejudging Egyptians and at the same time express no mention of the religious parties in your government who try and influence Jewish Orthodox principles for the entire state. I don't think you're in a position to sound so smug, that's my point

i like those religious parties....they express what democracy is all about, i also like having the arab parties in the knesset to to balance them out. Mature democracies dont have a problem with the sides...in fact we need them since they provide a voice for the various citizens. Those kind of voices only work in a western democracy.

in case you missed it most of israeli is secular as are the major parties, hence there is no danger to democracy. I know you like polls so now go back to those two about how Egyptians prefer religious islamic law as the law of the land and try to figure a way to make that compatible with a real democratic values.

your attempts to show that israel is 'religious" falls short when you check out the actual laws and judicial judgments....the things that actually count....

----

and please this is one of those statements that belong in fantasy land:
You look at Gaza and the constant attacks and you can't figure why this would happen to Israel? You honestly can't see an end to violence through a fair deal?
and what is a "fair deal".....is that deal the same that hamas, islamic jihad, PA will all agree upon?....oh..i forgot hizballa, an iran, since they too have an influence.

so what exactly is this fair deal... and after you write it out (though i doubt you will), what will you say when i show you quotes or polls that say many arabs don't agree to your "fair deal"...an who is deciding what is fair anyway?

as far as the random missiles from gaza...i dont really care what their excuse is for trying to kill us...if hamas cant control their "emotions" and have to try to kill people randomly as a result, well, then i guess they just have to "grow up" and learn to control themselves.

and this is pathetic...do you really think i dont remember?
New figures from the Interior Ministry show robust growth in these blocs.
i showed you the graph where it showed a constant steady increase in settlement growth....no "robust growth". Interesting that your trying to push an untruth to make a point.......no credibility, do i really have to check all of your quotes now?

[Jefferson23]

62. The irony of your post, " I like those religious parties...." with regard to your

statements about the Egyptians Arab Spring.

The fair deal is at the link, you can ignore it again..be my guest.

You don't care what their excuse is? They have no legitimate concerns with land theft according to you.

The reports indicate Israel's objectives all these years, which is LAND.

Have a great day pelsar.