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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 08:38 AM
Original message
Israel Likely to Bar Arafat from Bethlehem Mass
http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/story.asp?section=Breaking&storyId=806753&tw=wn_wire_story

<snip>

"RAMALLAH, West Bank (Reuters) - Palestinian President Yasser Arafat said on Tuesday he hoped to make a Christmas visit to Bethlehem for the first time in three years, but Israel said it was unlikely to let him go.

Asked by reporters at his battered headquarters in the West Bank city of Ramallah whether he wanted to travel to the city of Jesus's birth for holiday festivities, Arafat replied: "I hope so. You know that I never missed this opportunity until they (Israel) imposed a siege on this compound."

A senior Israeli official told Reuters the government saw no reason to change a policy under which Arafat is allowed to leave his headquarters but is not guaranteed he can return."

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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. He should be allowed to go
If for no other reason to see how some of his supporters desecrated the Church there.
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yeah but if some whackjob
either Israeli or Palestinian uses the opportunity to kill him off, how many seconds would elapse before we heard "Mossad" or "Butcher Sharon" being blamed?
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. 1 or 2.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Bethlehem should be an open city...
And anyone who wants to celebrate Christmas by going there shouldn't be stopped. Back in the days when I believed in religious stuff, Bethlehem seemed like a magical place to me, and I still respect that Christians view it as one of their holiest places at this time of the year...

I think the Church of the Nativity was desecrated by the IDF on orders of the GOI. Maybe it's my now-dead Christianity kicking in, but there's something disgusting about anyone laying siege to a Church where people are seeking refuge, a feeling the Pope expressed at the time, if I remember correctly...

Violet...
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. kick..
for :shrug:??
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
33. the password is...
Edited on Thu Dec-18-03 10:19 AM by cantwealljustgetalon

"I think"...

use it and you don't need no stinkin' evidence...
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. reminds me of The Mission
(the movie featuring Robert DeNiro)

Anyone remember the scene at the end?
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. KICK for proof of:
"I think the Church of the Nativity was desecrated by the IDF on orders of the GOI."

I would love to see some proof.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. I've already answered this...
In the other thread, where I told you that you should really be discussing this thread in this thread. As I said there, I prefaced my comment with the words 'I think'. I've expanded on my opinion in my post to Gimel. btw, don, as not long ago you told me that you refused to answer any of my questions, why are you expecting me to answer yrs? Just curious about that...


Violet...
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. And you "think" this....
based on what??

:shrug:
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. Based on the other post...
Y'know, the one I pointed you to. Why? Aren't I supposed to have opinions, Don?


Violet...
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #23
28. Quit dancing , Violet...
you said:

"I think the Church of the Nativity was desecrated by the IDF on orders of the GOI."

is it your opinion or do you have facts that the "GOI"
ordered the supposed desecration of the church?

opinion or facts?? which one??
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. I'm not dancing, don...
I've already told you it's my opinion, which is why I put the words 'I think' in front of what I said. Why are you still asking?


Violet...
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #28
35. I think...
it is an opinion steeped in a very strong bias...
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. Sadly...
to make a statement like that,without any factual basis
one has to assume there may be some strong bias.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. I think they are doing the "Twist"
Which in hindsight better describes everything
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #23
39. Your opinion
that the IDF desecrated the Church of the Nativity is pretty bizarre seeing as how they never entered it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. The Palestinians taking refuge
desecated the Church. They pillaged and profaned the sanctuary. The two or three priests inside with them were hostages.

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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Gimel....no one wants to hear the truth.
please...its "Jenin 2"....all lies,all the time.

like the korine-a....like the dead guy who gets back
on the stretcher at his funeral.....like the 8 yearold
killed by his brother....and i wont even talk about
RC....




btw
Im still waiting for an explanation on my previous
post.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Of course it's all lies
when Israel's crimes are concerned. They just don't happen. And when they do it's all Palestinian fault anyway, right Don?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. Like the korine-a?
Tell me, don. What's the *truth* about that? And what's the *truth* about Jenin? I've always wondered how some people are gifted with a knowledge of the *truth* about that considering that no independent investigation was allowed into what happened there...

Violet...
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Easy...
arafat lied thru his teeth saying he knew NOTHING about
the korine-a when in fact he ok'd the payment for
that boatload of death and destruction.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. What I want to know is...
Was that 'boatload of death and destruction' carrying weapons to be used for legitimate resistance or was it carrying things that could be made into suicide-bombs? If weaponry for legitimate resistance isn't supposed to be allowed for the Palestinians, then why isn't the same approach taken towards the US military equipment that brings 'death and destruction' to the Palestinians?

I don't find it particularly earth-shattering news to know that Arafat has lied about something and will in the future. It's a thing politicians are in the habit of doing, and Sharon and his cronies are a prime example of that, of course, as is the Bush regime and other leaders around the world...

Violet...
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. I guess Sharon is
immune to lies, corruption (family related) ....
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Apparently so...
And that's one thing that doesn't gel when folk really get into this lying and corruption stuff about Arafat, who I'm no fan of. If lying and corruption bothers some people, why do they bristle when criticisms of lying and corruption are made against Sharon?


Violet...
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #22
40. The evidence
was very clear in this case. Weapons seized were forbidden to the PA according to signed agreements, namely Oslo. Weapons for "legitimate resistance" are not needed when a peace accord is signed. Weapons for countering terror were allowed.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Oh so Israel
can defend themselves with any weapons possible (even WMD) just the Palestinians don't have that right. OK...
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. Some things are taken into account
The terrorist history of the PLO was the starting point. The basis of the Oslo wass that the PLO agreed to become a peaceful organization, and Arafat the President of a Palestinian State in the making. The PA was to have only weapons for controlling terror within and keeping law and order. Oslo was a bridge from terror to peace. Arafat and the PA have slipped off that bridge into the abyss.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. They weren't hostages...
That was a lie spread by the IDF at the time. I've read eyewitness accounts from the clergy in there who said they were definately not hostages...

There was a huge number of people trapped inside that Church due to the IDF siege of it. What do you think they were supposed to do the entire time? Not look for food? Not take a piss when they needed to? Was the Pope wrong when he strongly criticised the siege? Yes, a church is a sanctuary, and that rule doesn't change just because the IDF thinks that it doesn't apply to Palestinians. If the IDF was so concerned about what it calls desecration, then not laying siege to a Church would have put their money where they mouth is, so therefore if there was any desecration, the IDF takes blame in it happening as well...


Violet...
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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. But we are soon to get proof that:
the Church of the Nativity was desecrated by the IDF on orders of the GOI.

Then we may also get proof that the IDF tore down Joseph's tomb and put up a mosque.

Who knows what else is next?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Read my post to don...
And then read my post to Gimel where I expanded on my opinion. But while I'm waiting, when are you going to provide proof that all those Palestinians desecrated the Church of the Nativity?


Violet...
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Hold on ,Violet...
" on orders of the GOI."

Is this only your opinion or do you have facts to back
up this *claim*??
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. You can help out here...
Do the IDF operate independently and without the orders and approval of the GOI? If they do, then I retract the bit about the GOI, but if they do, then they seem to work differently than the militaries of many other states...

Violet...
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
45. So they did it
Edited on Thu Dec-18-03 01:32 PM by Gimel
on orders from the IDF. Is that your claim? They ran and hid there, terrorists who were known as activists, later deported to Gaza and some to Crete and Europe, but they were under orders from the IDF to desecrate the Church first. Maybe the IDF put the Church in Bet Lehem in order for the terrorists to end up there.

The proof was in following the story as it happened. Im sure you can find the relevant news stories on the www. Just type in Church of the Nativity in Google and start reading.

First check out the ADL report on the Internet to verify that you aren't reading a propaganda site.
http://www.adl.org/internet/jihad_online.pdf
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. Israeli distortions during the siege on the Church of the Nativity.
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article502.shtml

Siege chronology

Material in the following chronology was compiled from weekly reports by the Palestinian Center for Human Rights (PCHR) and first hand reports from peace activists inside the church archived by the Colorado Campaign for Middle East Peace.

Journalists were largely kept away from the area of the Church, making it difficult to know what was going on.

On 2 April 2002, the siege began.

On 4 April 2002, flares and bullets flew over the center of Bethlehem during an Israeli army attack later in the late evening.

On 5 April 2002 Israeli forces sporadically shelled the Church of the Nativity to force the Palestinians inside to surrender. The bell ringer of the church, Samir Ibrahim Salman (42), was killed by Israeli fire. Israeli forces also destroyed the southern gate of the church and a number of Israeli soldiers moved into its southern yard. Three people were reportedly wounded by Israeli fire.

On 6 April 2002, 20 peace activists were prevented by the Israeli military from bringing food and medicine to 200 Palestinians trapped in the Church of the Nativity. Israeli soldiers aimed a tank gun towards them while they accompanied a Red Crescent ambulance, refused them entry to Manger Square and fired live ammunition into the air above them when they were within 50 yards of the Church of the Nativity. Black smoke poured into the air after a building near the Syrian Church was hit twice by Israeli shells.

On 8 April 2002, Israeli forces surrounding the Church of the Nativity again opened fire at the church, resulting in fire breaking out in the room of one of the priests there. When people inside the church attempted to extinguish the fire, Israeli forces fired at them, killing Khaled Mousa Abu Siam (23) with a live bullet in his head.

On 10 April 2002, at around 6:00 p.m., Ali Farah (60), from Dheisheh refugee camp, was killed by live ammunition in the chest by an Israeli sniper while passing by the Holy Bible College in the center of Bethlehem. Inside the Nativity, Armen Sinanian, an Armenian Orthodox monk, was shot and injured by an Israeli sniper. Israeli flares were fired above the church during the night.

On 11 April 2002, a series of explosions were heard and black smoke was seen eminating from an area near the Church of the Nativity.

On 13 April 2002, at approximately 11:40 p.m., Hassan 'Abdullah al-Nasman (26), from Jabalya refugee camp, a blacksmith working in Bethlehem, died following Israeli sniper fire. Earlier, the sniper had fired several live rounds from a rifle equipped with a silencer at Palestinians besieged inside the church. Two hit Al-Nasman in the chest. Israeli forces denied passage to medical personnel and al-Nasman bled to death. Wire services reported that Israeli forces took to psychological warfare in an effort to demoralise those holed up in the compound, and deployed a crane hoisting a speaker system emitting high pitch sounds over the Church of the Nativity compound.

On 15 April 2002, Dr. Mousa Abu Humeid, Director General of West Bank hospitals at the Palestinian Ministry of Health stated that Israeli forces deliberately prevented the medical evacuation of Tamer al-Kusba, seriously wounded by a live bullet in the abdomen four days earlier. Abu Humeid said that there were other patients in the Church of the Nativity who were badly in need of medical attention but Israel had not permitted any medical personnel to enter the church.

On 16 April 2002, Israeli occupation forces invaded the Star Hotel near the Church of the Nativity. More than 50 journalists who were reporting from the fifth floor of the hotel were warned against continuing as it may "endanger their lives." Israeli forces took this measure apparently to prevent media coverage of their attempts to break into the Church of the Nativity. Mousa al-Sha'er, a photographer of Agence France Presse (AFP) told PCHR that the situation was very dangerous since Israeli forces were heavily deployed in the area to monitor journalists. Smoke was seen during the day and flares fired at night in the region of the Nativity. A heavy gun battle was reported during an Israeli military operation in Bethlehem.

On 18 April 2002, smoke was seen billowing in the area of the Nativity.

On 20 April 2002, Israeli forces cut telephone lines into the church.

On 22 April 2002, intimidation of journalists continued. Israeli troops confiscated the Israeli government-issued press cards of 24 journalists and reporters in Bethlehem who were working for foreign televisions and press agencies. Israeli soldiers in a jeep stopped and surrounded the journalists, on their way to the Church of the Nativity. The journalists were forced to return to the Star Hotel. Israeli forces opened fire at the car of another journalist, Mohammed Mousa Manasra (52). According to Manasra, Israeli soldiers in the market area in the centre of Bethlehem fired several live bullets at his car, which was clearly marked as a press car. Manasra was traveling with his family but thankfully no casualties were reported. At approximately 7:30 p.m., Israeli forces opened fire with live ammunition and tear gas canisters at the Church of the Nativity, setting fire to one of the rooms.

On 28 April 2002, members of the International Solidarity Movement succeeded in reaching the front door of the Church of the Nativity with food. Catching the Israeli soldiers in Manger Square by surprise, they managed to leave the sqaure without being arrested.

On 29 April 2002, an Israeli army sniper positioned on a building near the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem fired at 29-year-old Nidal Isma'il 'Ebayyat, from Bethlehem, who had been blocked inside the church for four weeks, killing him with a live bullet in the chest. 'Ebayyat was a member of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades.

On 2 May 2002, at approximately 12:00 p.m., an Israeli sniper shot 21-year-old Ahmed Mohammed Abu 'Aabed, a member of the Palestinian Military Intelligence from Khan Yunis, killing him inside the church with two live bullets in his chest and abdomen. Ten international activists, bearing packages of food, darted through Manger Square and entered the Church of the Nativity, stunning Israeli Defense Force troops. 13 decoy activists were caught and detained by troops. U.S. peace activist Larry Hales, who managed to get inside the Church, reported: "Unfortunately the situation inside is much worse than we anticipated. Most of the people are literally starving, having not eaten anything in the last five days, except for a few boiled leaves from a tree in the courtyard."

On 4 May 2002, an Israeli sniper shot and killed 40-year-old Khalaf Ahmed al-Najajra, from Nahalin village, with a live bullet in the chest, in a courtyard inside the compound of the Nativity. Danish peace activist Allan Lindgaard reported from inside the church that: "The Israelis are shooting at anything which moves in here. They shoot through the windows and at anyone going out to get food. The man that was killed was hit in the yard by a bullet which exploded inside his body. He just wanted to air his clothes."

On 10 May 2002, the siege ended, following a European-brokered deal that exiled 13 of those inside the church in European countries and another 26 to Gaza. Israeli troops stormed the chuch at 2:40 p.m. and arrested the ten international peace activists still there.


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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Oh....Electronic Intafada says that???
if was on paper, you would have to wash the crayon off

your hands.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #19
27. What was that thing you were saying about shooting the messenger?
Do you have anything to say to refute what was posted rather than attacking the source?


Violet...
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. Attacking the source??
noooo....just mocking it.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Blast from the past:
drdon326 (1000+ posts) Sun Dec-07-03 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #11

13. Ahhhh....

Edited on Sun Dec-07-03 12:13 PM by drdon326

SO.. It doesnt matter what the messege is, just dismiss it if
you dont like the messenger.




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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #31
42. the problem is...
this message looks like it just came out of a maytag washer right after the spin dry cycle...
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-03 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. How about trying to refute what it said?
I remember you chiding others not too long ago for mocking sources and not trying to refute what they said. Is there anything specifically you disagreed with in what was said in the article?

Violet...
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #3
38. Arafat isn't
a Christian either, and his wife converted to Islam.
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cantwealljustgetalong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-18-03 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #1
34. here is an update...
on how one of the poor little murdering Tanzim militiamen, I mean church refugees, is doing now that he is in his safe haven in Brussels rescued from the big bad IDF which was "ordered to desecrate the Church by the GOI" with no stinkin' evidence:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/373230.html

LONDON - One of the 13 Palestinians deported from the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem in May 2002 was arrested Tuesday in Belgium on suspicion of participating in a number of robberies in which more than $250,000 were stolen. Khalil Mohammed Abdullah al-Nawara received asylum in Belgium following the siege on the church.

...

Al-Nawara, a former resident of Bethlehem and a member of the Tanzim militia, was involved in the past in incidents of shooting at Israeli cars on the Tunnel Road, as well as the murder of Israeli citizens. His asylum in Belgium included financial assistance and housing. He was initially under guard by Belgian security forces, but this was later lifted after he was deemed not to be a threat to public security.

The affair has stirred unrest and embarrassment in Belgium. At first, government spokesman refused to comment on the matter; but yesterday, the office of the Belgian prime minister authorized publication of the details. Official government spokesmen told Haaretz that Interior Minister Patrick Dewael will be required today to respond to questions on the matter in the Belgian parliament.

The transfer of the deportees to Europe was accompanied by concerns that some were likely to turn to criminal or terrorist activities in their host countries. It was reported some six months ago that the security forces of Britain and Ireland were looking into information that one of the two Palestinians deported to Dublin was in contact with The Real IRA. Irish sources noted yesterday that at this stage, the allegations had yet to be confirmed.
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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. More pointless humiliation
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