Satellite or parasite state?

[DuctapeFatwa]

THE BUSH-Sharon partnership has reached a shameless level. Following a public rebuke of the Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon for his intention to take unilateral steps towards a final settlement of the Arab-Israeli conflict, the Bush administration backtracked and replaced its words of reproach by words of praise. While the words of rebuke carried Colin Powell's signature, the words of praise carried the radical Zionists'.

The sudden change of stance has more to do with getting the Jewish vote in 2004 than with advancing the peace in the Middle East. While the Jewish vote is critical for George W. Bush, it is business as usual for radical Zionists. No matter who loses the 2004 American presidential election, radical Zionism will be a winner. With George W. Bush's Zionist neoconservatives on the right and Joe Lieberman's pro-Israel Democrats on the left, Israel will most likely sustain its parasitical relationship with the American people indefinitely.

Radical Zionists and their right and left American cronies have always countered the above commonsensical statements by falsely claiming that Israel should be unconditionally supported because the latter is a democracy and a close ally of the US. According to a number of dictionaries, an ally is a supporter, a helper and a partner. Can one think of a battle that Israel has fought alongside the United States? How about the current conflict taking place in Israel's backyard, Iraq?

If the state of Israel is so strategically important for the United States, why is the former watching as American men and women are killed everyday in Iraq to make Israel safer? I once read an interesting description of how in a parasitical relationship between animals one eats into the other's skin and then internal organs until the victim dies.

http://www.jordantimes.com/Mon/opinion/opinion4.htm

[Muddleoftheroad]

1. Their definition

of radical Zionist probably includes anybody who supports the existence of Israel.

I note the article came from the JORDAN Times. Jordan has killed far more Palestinians that Israel has in the last 30+ years.

[Malvina Reynolds]

2. You are correct about Jordan.

The article starting this thread contains:

"The biggest conspiracy in American history has been to hoax Americans into believing that there is no Zionist conspiracy, a diabolical counter-conspiracy tactic if you like, to blur the vision and hide the obvious truth. Hence, a culture of fear has dominated America vis-ý-vis the dubious role of the Zionist movement in outright controlling America's foreign policy in the service of the state of Israel."

That gives you an idea of how seriously to take this thread.

[Violet_Crumble]

5. No, it probably doesn't...

I support the existence of Israel and I didn't get the impression I'd be considered a radical Zionist...

Yr comment about Jordan didn't have anything to do with the article...

I disagree with the comments in the article about Israel having control of US foreign policy. It doesn't. The US controls US foreign policy. As far as parasitic relationships go, I think it's a mutually parasitic one, and one that's not particularly healthy for either Israel or the US...

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

23. Jordan

Actually, my comment about Jordan and the tens of thousands of Palestinians who were killed has a LOT to do with this. It is a historical context. As much as Palestinians or other Arabs critique Israel, they tend to forget history.

[Violet_Crumble]

26. Nonsense...

It's got zero to do with the article. It'd be just the same as someone trying to do the same thing to an article from an Israeli source by pointing out that Israel has killed many Palestinians...

And we've been through this before in a thread a few months back. Tens of thousands weren't killed, Muddle...

Violet...

[drdon326]

3. WOW....

I want to take MY shoes off and beat the author over
the head after reading this.

[bluesoul]

4. Why?

Because there is some truth in it? Does that offend you?

[Gimel]

6. I agree with drdon

Jordon gets a sizable chunk of US foreign aid as well.

The US-Israel relationship is a working relationship, and creative output results. Not parasitic as the writer contends, and certainly the claim that Israel is the cause of the 9/11 attacks should be a red flag to everyone.

Garbage such as that should be deleted.


:puke:

[GabysPoppy]

7. Please take the time

and point out the truth in this opinion piece of shit.

[Resistance]

10. No - you take some time

and show how the article is a "piece of shit"

[GabysPoppy]

29. Here is the where the piece of shit starts and where it ends

Starting here:


"'Satellite or parasite state?'"

and ending here:

"the victim dies."

Do you want to share your "non-shit" parts with us now?

[Jim Sagle]

55. I have a feeling Rosa Parks would NOT be happy with you.

:puke:

[drdon326]

8. Oh really....bluesoul....

I'll bet you like this part, dont you...

"The biggest conspiracy in American history has been to hoax Americans into believing that there is no Zionist conspiracy, a diabolical counter-conspiracy tactic if you like, to blur the vision and hide the obvious truth. Hence, a culture of fear has dominated America vis-ý-vis the dubious role of the Zionist movement in outright controlling America's foreign policy in the service of the state of Israel."

so you agree there is a "zionist conspiracy.... a diabolical counter-conspiracy tactic" ??

since YOU called this the "truth", you agree with this.

Hey bluesoul....Am i part of this "diabolical counter-conspiracy tactic"???

come on...out me now.

let it rip!!

[Violet_Crumble]

9. Where did bluesoul call that bit the truth?

He said there was *some* truth in the article. At no point did he say it was that, so I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion he was speaking of that specific part of the article...

Violet...

[drdon326]

11. OK.....Ms. VIOLET....

Answer me this.....

am i part of the "zionist conspiracy.... a diabolical counter-conspiracy tactic" ??

[Violet_Crumble]

12. Here's yr answer.....Dr. DON.....

Obviously not, seeing as how I don't believe in all that zionist conspiracy crap and have never posted anything in my entire time here to indicate I do...

Now, back to my question. Where did bluesoul say that he agreed with that particular part of the article, which just in case anyone's interested, I think was a badly flawed article which didn't offer much of merit...


Violet...

[drdon326]

14. Hold on, Ms. Crumble....

Do I have to scour thru endless threads about your
opinions of the "zionist conspiracy " ??

I think you know the answer.:cry:

Where's bluesoul...i want to hear him say otherwise.

[Violet_Crumble]

17. Actually, you do...

Because I have never in the entire time I've been at DU said anything other than I think zionist conspiracy theories are crap. If you are claiming I've said something I've never said, then you go scouring yr life away. I'll be waiting patiently...

I dislike intensely being accused of saying and supporting things I don't....

Violet...

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

21. A suggestion...

It might help in the future to pay more attention to what people actually say, don. I think it's not unreasonable to see an accusation in you saying after I'd pointed out that I'd never in my whole time at DU posted anything to suggest that I'm a fan of the zionist conspiracy nonsense:

'Do I have to scour thru endless threads about your opinions of the "zionist conspiracy " ??

I think you know the answer.'

Violet...

[drdon326]

25. Darn right...

It might help in the future if I pay more attention to what people actually say........

Well...if I misrepresented your statements then I offer
my heartfelt apologies.

[Violet_Crumble]

27. Heartfelt apology accepted...

n/t

[bluesoul]

13. The "some truth" I was talking about

is the Jewish vote in the USA and the influence of lobby groups on American politics, not necessarily the rest of the article, which is not exactly a merit of objectivity, but does have some points nonetheless. So...

[drdon326]

16. OK....

NOW we're getting somewhere....finally

what other "points" do you agree with??

[bluesoul]

20. About the US unconditional support to

Israel and that's about it...

[drdon326]

22. ( As I inject my last dose of heroin)

all this controversey over that??

thats the "some truth" ??

suddenly i miss arguing with Violet....go figure.:shrug:

[GabysPoppy]

30. that's "points"?

point(s) being plural in most of the world, I guess we have another "point" coming.

[bluesoul]

31. Those were several things

more then I could say for an average Jpost article...

[GabysPoppy]

33. So, in your opinion

when the Jerusalem Post has an article about a suicide bomber blowing himself up on a bus or in a restaurant, we shouldn't believe it?

Or if they write an article claiming Mr. Arafat has absconded with monies given to help the Palestinian people, that too is untrue?

And should they dare to call Hamas a terrorist organization we should really believe they are just the local Boy Scout Chapter?

What else shouldn't we believe in the Jerusalem Post?

[bluesoul]

34. I am talking about

their commentaries and one-sided views, not things that obviously happened. One is reporting, the other commenting and trying to portray as objective as possible. Jpost isn't one of them, at least not when it's about Sharon, Likud and Israel's policies...

[Violet_Crumble]

32. Yeah, it was...

It's been and gone. Read post #13. That makes plural, which is why don asked what other points bluesoul agreed with. Anything else? :)

Violet...

[cantwealljustgetalong]

36. well, there is "some truth" in almost everthing...

so you have some pretty low standards...

and, even if there were "some truth" in there somewhere, that does not mean that this pathetically written "opinion piece" is not, overall, a steaming pile of hyberbolic dreck and that the author is not worthy of a thousand shoes thrown at his head...

[Jim Sagle]

54. The article ain't nuthin' but Nazi filth. Where's the "truth" in there?

[bemildred]

57. I will stipulate that it is inflammatory bilge Sir.

Will that do?

[bemildred]

38. LOL. nt

[GabysPoppy]

15. Why don't we let Mr. Bluesoul speak his own mind

We are all waiting for that which was true.

Until then, "oh my"

[Violet_Crumble]

18. Already done...

But seeing 'we all' are sitting here patiently waiting, maybe 'we all' can wait around some more and await these astounding proclamations I've supposed to have made supporting the zionist conspiracy theory crap that dr.don is as we speak busily scouring the archives for ;)

Violet...

[Gimel]

24. You are noted

If I may comment, for style rather than content, Ms Crumble. Details like what was never said somehow don't stand out much in the final analysis.

[Violet_Crumble]

28. Huh?

So if for example someone never said they think the planes flying into the WTC was an optical illusion and in fact had consistantly pooh-poohed silly conspiracy theories, you'd just not happen to notice that small detail and think it's just fine to imply they do indeed believe that sort of nonsense? Oh-kay, interesting to get yr take on that sort of thing ;)


Violet...

[cantwealljustgetalong]

37. "noted for style rather than content"...

:thumbsup:

[DuctapeFatwa]

35. The part that is not true will be quicker and easier to point out

The "conspirators" are not motivated by "zionism" but plain old ecumenical, nonsectarian greed.

Nor it is a conspiracy, which implies secrecy.

There is nothing secret about the oilngun gravy train, in Israel or anywhere else.

[bemildred]

39. Attempting a logical deconstruction of what is

clearly a flaming polemic isn't likely to be a productive
activity. But surely you are right it would stand up better
without all the drivel about zionist-this and militant-radical
that. One cannot simultaneously seek to inform and inflame.

I liked the rant about Mr. Foxman better, it stuck to it's
business and used the cudgel with skill and abandon.

[Resistance]

41. I enjoyed the rant about Foxman too

Oh well. It doesn't seem to matter much what we like

[Jim Sagle]

56. I sure hope not.

[DuctapeFatwa]

42. LOL I think you can inflame and inform simultaneously

At the very least, you are informed of what somebody somewhere is sayihng, even if you are inflamed that they are saying it. I love the Foxman piece, too, and I like this one, even though he does make the same mistake of thinking that ideology is more powerful than it is, as powerful as greed, even. Just another rose-tinted lens variant. I wish he were right. Ideologues can on occasion, respond to reason. Those motivated by piggishness and sheer avarice cannot.

[bemildred]

43. Maybe so. I do like to read it all, and a good thoughtful

rant is a pleasure whether you agree or not. Unfortunately
most of what we see is crude. There are many sides to most
questions, and it's good to be reminded of that.

But if you SEEK to inform, you do not also try to arouse the
passions. I always assume that someone who is trying to stir
me up, whatever the merits of his case, is clearly trying to
interfere with my mental autonomy.

[DuctapeFatwa]

44. No one can do that but you. All anyone else can do is tell you that

in this city, here is a paper who feels that this article will resonate with enough people, and please their sponsors, enough to run it.

This information is actually food for your mental autonomy, which processes the information. If you are inflamed by it, that IS your mental autonomy at work.

Someone else might read the same thing and merely nod in agreement.

Others might become thoughtful, and get a little mental autonomy action going on somewhere it had not been. Option C is always the one I hope for.

[bemildred]

45. My mental autonomy tells me you are being a loon, Sir.

If you think there are not attempts to inflame peoples
passions in order to manipulate their thoughts and control
their political views, you are not paying attention.

You cannot simultaneously appeal to reason and evidence in
order to persuade while inflaming hate, anger, or fear, it
is an oxymoronic thing to do. The lizardlike passions of
the brain stem interfere destructively with dispassionate
thought. This is not to say one should do only one and not
the other, always be Mr. Spock so to speak, but it is to
say that they are categorically not the same thing.

If you are merely saying that one can and should resist dishonest
attempts to manipulate one thoughts and feelings, then I agree.

[Resistance]

46. dishonest attempts to manipulate thoughts

is why I won't get my news from American elite media

[bemildred]

47. They don't do a lot of news anyway.

How is the Michael Jackson crisis coming anyway? :puke:

But seriously, I like the web, it's unfiltered with all the
natural vitamins and minerals left in, and you get to decide
for yourself who to believe and how much to believe them.

[DuctapeFatwa]

48. I am not talking about the person who writes the article

I am talking about the person who tells you that the article was written.

[bemildred]

49. It seems clear then, that we are not talking about the

same thing. Your purpose is, umm, pedogogical, you hope
to open up some new vista of thought by presenting an example,
to jar someone out of their mental ruts and habits and offer
a different and perhaps useful point of view.

I was talking about differing rhetorical approachs to
persuasion.

So I guess we have nothing to say to each other. :-)

In fairness, I must say I often post things because I think they
are stimulating rather than because I agree with them, and I have
observed that you do the same.

[Resistance]

50. I know it's what I visit DU for

(the stimulation)

[bemildred]

51. Indeed. Beats TV all hollow. nt

[DuctapeFatwa]

52. I post things I disagree with all the time

Just because I think they are interesting, and I don't deny that I think that people should read a variety of papers, and a variety of editorials, and I don't think enough people do that, so I hope that whether they are outraged, inflamed, bemused or delighted with the article itself, that they will be encouraged to click around and discover, explore...

LOL I guess I am trying to manipulate peoples' autonomy after all.

[brainshrub]

40. The Real Parasite:

What does the United States get for it's money: A good customer.

US taxpayer money goes to Israel, who in turn buy weapons from our Military/Industrial complex. It's a sweet racket.

To be fair many countries, mostly dictatorships, have the same deal going on with the US govt.

Israel isn't the parasite: It's the corporations who profit from this mess.

[cantwealljustgetalong]

53. "PARASITE"...

nothing like feeding people's mental autonomy, opening up new mental vistas, and stimulating witht the intent to inflame while informing, and how better for high-horsey progressives, than with an article that uses the most popular loaded word to be found in so many of the stimulating and informative autonomous mental vistas of Aryan Nation...PARASITE...how progressively quaint...

[Lithos]

58. Locking

Dr Naseer Alomari has a long history of inflammatory op-eds whose only central point is the promotion of a the Jewish conspiracy theory as the driver of US relations in the Middle East and towards Muslims in general. This article is no exception.

Lithos
FA/NS Moderator
Democratic Underground