9/11: LIHOP, MIHOP, etc.

[expatriot]

Poll question: 9/11: LIHOP, MIHOP, etc.

I need to go to bed soon but I wanted to see if the DU community is overwhelmingly MIHOP tinfoil hatters or not. I may regret doing this.

[expatriot]

1. the score at bedtime is, imho, 6 not crazy, 6 crazy. nt

[LunaC]

2. Now that you've voted

Please read the link in my sig line and let me know if it changed your position. Thanks.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

3. I picked the least tinfoily answer.

Honestly, I'm not the biggest fan of the Bush Administration, but the idea that Bush MIHOP or LIHOP is just too damn cynical, and cruelly absurd. The fact is, as Rixhard Clarke said, both the Bush and Clinton administrations share some of the blame. IMHO, Bush gets a lot of legit heat mot only because he ignored the warnings (the PDBs), but he has yet to come up with a real homeland security strategy.

So, for those who say that it's all Clinton's fault (some of the implications on the far-right even suggest that Clinton knew in advance and LIHOP, or even MIHOP), if they want to play the blame game, they ought to remember the record.

[Kahuna]

15. Lying to get us in Iraq was considered Tin Foil Hat a couple of

years ago. Remember?

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

31. Well to be fair, lying and conspiracy aren't excatly that same thing.

[leesa]

35. Their lie to get us into Iraq WAS a conspiracy.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

4. I picked option 3. (nt)

[No Exit]

5. MIHOP is not tinfoil.

If he lied to get us to invade Iraq, what's to say he didn't lie to get us into Afghanistan?

And somebody murdered about 3000 people that day.

The Bush administration says it was Al Quaeda.

Do you trust the Bush administration to tell you the truth?
No? Then do a little digging! Read up on PNAC, which said "America needs a new Pearl Harbor." Remember, Cheney is a member of PNAC.

Do I have proof that Bush or Cheney or someone connected with them did it? No. But I think I can safely say that Bush/Cheney would not tell us the truth about 9/11. So I've sought other sources. I'm not going to expect you to believe MIHOP since you think it's "tinfoil hat" stuff. But please, do a little reading at, say, www.onlinejournal.com, and see what you come up with.

[No Exit]

6. And before you swallow the official explanation of 9/11,

is there anything wrong with asking those who give you that official explanation for PROOF?

IMO the ones who swallow the official explanation are the tinfoil hatters.

[mirandapriestly]

8. agreed. The fact that Atta was paid by Pakistan through the Saudis

just prior to 911, combined with th close links the CIA has with pakistan intelligence makes me think there was mutual participation. The official story is definitely a lie, though, judging from the misinformation in the Commission Report.

[No Exit]

28. Very interesting. And another thing...

there is so much information out there that is in languages that WE don't speak/read. Am I going to trust THIS administration to translate for me? Hell no!

[leesa]

37. And the Pakistani official was meeting with Bush Crime Syndicate officials

at the time of the cash exchange. Come on folks, it all stinks to high heaven and yet people swallow the HIGHLY suspicious conspiracy fairy tale put out by a criminal White House. There has NEVER been an investigation into 9-11....Bush and Cheney PERSONALLY blocked it. Why?

[No Exit]

29. I agree! Especially given the * admin's reputation for lying! n/t

[expatriot]

7. it is not a matter of whether he'd lie or not. it is a matter of him/them

having the means and opportunity to make it happen without their cover being totally blown. I think that for a lot of the MIHOP theories to have occurred, many U.S. government employees qould have had to have been complicit in the attacks.

[No Exit]

27. Maybe, maybe not. Or maybe some of them were used

and didn't realize what they were being used for until it was too late. If so, you might ask, why are they not telling us their stories now? I mean, you might ask, how would it hurt them? It's not like the Bush/Cheney administration has ever tried to mortally wound anyone (or their wife) for simply telling the public the truth, is it? No one's ever gone to prison for knowing too much, have they? (See: lawyer for blind sheik.) No one's ever had their lawsuit dismissed because it would reveal too much, have they? (See: Sibel Edmunds.)

We need to just dig and dig, and the truth will eventually reveal itself. I have repeatedly heard accounts of what Cheney was doing that morning, and they are disturbing. Am I saying Cheney is personally responsible for 9/11? No. But I am saying that it's quite possible, that he, a PNAC member, had a part to play in what happened that day. I am not schooled in the ways of military operations, but I have read more than once that Cheney was somehow involved in some war games, some exercises that were being done that morning.

Cheney is an unconventional VP and it is very clear that he has his hand not just in his job as VP, but in the business of many other government functions. I think you'd agree with that, at least. So the idea of Cheney doing something to do with military (jet) exercises on the morning of 9/11 is not like trying to picture a normal VP (say, Al Gore) doing such a thing. We know Cheney is BIG blowbuddies with Sec. of Defense Rumsfeld.

I'll look for a link. (There is information out there on 9/11 possibilities, and there is also misinformation which has let itself get mixed in with the legit stuff, in order to make anyone who doubts the official 9/11 explanation look like a tinfoil lunatic.)

Then there are the stock market fluctuations. Very, very strange--but undeniable. The records of the stock market are kept. They're there for you to look at. Some very odd selling going on in the days before 9/11. People have looked at this and have wondered why the odd patterns surrounding 9/11.

A man named John O'Neill (no, not the swiftboat liars asshole) was, I think, in charge of security for the twin towers, at the time of 9/11. As I recall, this man had some major beef with Bush/Cheney--or vice versa. And it had to do with terrorism. (Will look it up.) Conveniently, this John O'Neill was killed on 9/11 in the towers.

Meanwhile, this guy is at least dancing around the point below:

Col. Robert Bowman:

"As other speakers have said, they knew the American people wouldn’t stand for it, and they said so in their documents, and they said, unless there’s that new Pearl Harbor. Well 9/11 did supply that. And we’ve been lied to not only about the war, but about 9/11 itself.

The Bush administration was warned. They were warned by the Clinton Administration during the transition period, they were warned by the intelligence agencies of eleven other nations, they were specifically warned by one FBI agent that Moussawi was planning on flying a hijacked airliner, “into the World Trade Center.”

They ignored the warnings, more than that, we have mounting evidence that _at least_, they made it impossible for those planes to be intercepted.

If our government had merely done nothing - and I say that as an old interceptor pilot and I know the drill, I know what it takes, I know how long it takes, I know what the procedures are, I know what they were and I know what they changed them to - if our government had merely done nothing and allowed normal procedures to happen on that morning of 9/11, the twin towers would still be standing and thousands of Americans would still be alive. My sisters and brothers, that is treason!

As a combat veteran, I will not stand idly by watch our security destroyed by a President who went AWOL rather than serve in Vietnam. As one who has devoted his life to the security of this country. I will not stand by and watch an appointed President send our sons and daughters around the world to kill Arabs for the oil companies.

Patriotism demands that I speak out and call it by it’s name. It is treason."

http://benfrank.net/blog/2005/10/27/oil_mafia_treason/



Please read some of the articles at www.onlinejournal.com and at www.madcowprod.org. Madcow is a bit strange, and sometimes they tie so many threads together, it's a bit much, but I believe a good chunk of their info checks out.

[EuroObserver]

9. bin Laden involvement:

In the UMMAT interview with bin Laden immediately after 9-11 (September 2001), he apparently denied involvement in these attacks.

http://www.public-action.com/911/oblintrv.html

"I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle..."

By the time of Tayseer (or Taysir) Alouni's interview of bin Laden (October 2001), he appears to accept some moral responsability, having incited such attacks:

http://www.justresponse.net/Bin_Laden2.html

"Alouni: Sheikh, those who follow your statements and speeches may link your threats to what happened in America. To quote one of your latest statements: "I swear that America won't enjoy security before we live it for real in Palestine." It is easy for anyone following developments to link the acts to your threats.

Bin Laden: It is easy to link them. We have agitated for this for years and we have issued statements and fatwas to that effect. This appeared in the investigations into the four young men who destroyed the American centre in Ulayya in Riyadh, as disclosed and published by the Saudi government. The reported that they were influenced by some of the fatwas and statements that we issued. Also, apart from that, incitement continues in many meetings and has been published in the media. If they mean, or if you mean, that there is a link as a result of our incitement, then it is true. We incite because incitement is our today. God assigned incitement to the best of all mankind, Mohammed, who said, "Fight for the sake of God. Assign this to no one but yourself, and incite the faithful." This is a true response. We have incited battle against Americans and Jews. This is true..."

[Peace Patriot]

10. I wish your poll didn't keep switching between "Bush" and "Bush....

..administration," because there is a distinction between them on knowledge of something, levels of complicity, types of complicity, and WHO (within the Bush administration). It's just too inexact.

It's possible for instance that Bush knew that his buds were going to take care of his sinking poll numbers, but he didn't know how or when (and was given "deniability"). Then there's this business of Cheney having to hold his hand during 9/11 commission testimony, their insistence on speaking as one to select member of the commission, their refusing to go to Congress, their refusal to permit any note-taking (let alone taping), their refusal to testify under oath like everybody else, and, finally, if they'd had their druthers, there would have been no investigation AT ALL. No investigation--of the most incredible national security failure in our history!

I suspect that Bush is a mean little, mentally defective puppet, who didn't care. Loved putting on the big cowboy hat.

Enough of him. Then we come to Cheney in his bunker and Rumsfeld...AWOL. Rumsfeld, who drew all NORAD decision-making under his direct control, three months before, and then disappeared during the critical hour when our nation's capitol was under attack.

Somebody messed up the NORAD/Air Force response that day. Somebody scheduled a hijacking simulation THAT DAY, of all days, clearly to create confusion.

I want to know why our nation's capitol was undefended; why all normal NORAD procedures didn't work on that day, and that day only; and where Cheney and Rumsfeld were and what they were really doing.

And it is NOT a "conspiracy theory" to desire--and to demand--answers to these and other very serious questions about what happened that day, and leading up to that day, and just afterward (when the bin Ladens flew out of the country, and the Bushcons all got out their maps of Iraq). The 9/11 commission report was a whitewash. The report on the towers falling was ridiculous. And the in-tact hijacker passport, the instant uploading of the faces and identities of the hijackers, and their free roaming around our country, taking flying lessons, renting apartments, and leaving a mile wide trail, have all yet to be explained.

And quite frankly, in view of all that has happened since, I think we cannot afford to presume that our gov't is NOT conspiring against us. They clearly ARE. The only questions are, just how rotten and traitorous are they, and how can they be stopped?

------

I voted for the green one, but am not happy with how the poll question was framed.

[expatriot]

33. Sorry. it was late. nt.

[coyotespaw]

11. I asked in a previous thread, but I'm still unsure...

What do MIHOP/LIHOP mean?

[Mnemosyne]

18. Made/Let It Happen On Purpose.

Welcome to DU!

[Bernardo de La Paz]

12. International House Of Pancakes.

[ErisFiveFingers]

13. I work in computer security...

Where one maxim is "never attribute to malice, that which can be explained by incompetance".

Both LIHOP and MIHOP assume that shrubco were smart enough to have (P)urpose, rather than being opportunistic morons.

[Kahuna]

17. It didn't require BRAINS. It only required that they do nothing.

And they're very good at doing NOTHING. Think Katrina. Your analogy doesn't quite fit this scenario.

[ErisFiveFingers]

19. If they had no malice in Katrina...

They could still do something, or nothing.

It still comes down to (P)urpose.

They could do something or nothing because they were idiots, or they could do something or nothing on (P)urpose...

It's all about intent, or the lack thereof. Being a mentally impaired leader doesn't mean there was intentional intent.

[Demeter]

22. BushCo Personifies Malice AND Incompetence

So as a criterion for deciding, your proverb isn't applicable.

[Kahuna]

14. I am finally convinced that they LIHOP or MIHOP.. The more I hear..

the Beltway crowd say that the bushies were planning to take out Saddam and 9/11 gave them the excuse, it convinces me that they LIHOP.

[H2O Man]

16. Option One ......

with the possibility that one or more people in the bowels of government may have been aware. But the description of the status of the larger conflict, as described in "Imperial Hubris," is entirely accurate.

[SledDriver]

20. BFEE MIHOP

WTC 7, which was not hit by a plane, collapsed PERFECTLY into its own footprint as if by controlled demolition. Steel frame buildings collapsing from fire damage? :tinfoilhat:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

21. Just look into the war games being run simultaneously..led by Cheney.

If anyone doesn't realize it, there is a great board here at DU on 9/11.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=125

[blindpig]

23. Interceptors.

Where were the interceptors? That is the kicker for me. They knew something was going to happen and somebody somehow caused those planes to stand down or otherwise not perform their mission to facilitate the anticipated "Pearl Harbor" moment. That the attack was much more devastating than they expected explains bu$h's slack jawed reaction with the goat book. I suspect that he was mostly but not entirely out of the loop. Cheney and Rumsfield were probably the principle actors in this act of treason.

[HughBeaumont]

24. COIN-OP

Collectively Orchestrated It Nefariously On Purpose.

Not just 9/11, which there isn't a shred of doubt in MY mind that they had hands in, but the whole PNAC installation itself - it's been planned since 1997 and they've been trying since Whitewater to get their grubby mitts on the power to implement it. Via election fixes, tax cuts for the wealthy, 9/11 (mere hours after it happened, they were looking for a link to Iraq somehow) the eternal conflicts and now appointment of batshit insane pro-religious right, pro-empire Conservacronies to high positions in the UN, the AG and the Supreme Court.

George W Cokesnorter is merely the folksy good ol' bwah face to this criminal cabal; a means to an end. Cheney scares roaches, women and children; plus he's a shady black serpent who hates being in the public eye, so he could never be elected as President.

Paul Thompson's book The Terror Timeline and the Griffin books are the definitive sources to the 9/11 chicanery. A new one that I found graphically interesting (loaded with pictures) is 9/11 Revealed.

[NoBushSpokenHere]

25. kick n/t

[goforit]

26. Expatriot? The last two selections are pretty much the same and

should be combined as one selection.

[expatriot]

32. perhaps.... i suppose that in the last option I was getting at that

bin Laden/AQ was a complete prop of the Bush admin, not really existing/operating for its own sake.

[Bridget Burke]

30. The 3rd option is closest to my belief.....

Some of Bush's crew knew a fair amount about what was going to happen. They allowed it as an excuse for unending war, repeal of civil liberties & a "popular wartime president."

Bush was kept mostly in the dark. His cowardice & stupidity were on display for all to see.

[leesa]

34. I voted OBL only marginally involved,because I am not certain he was still

alive at that time. I think they swung a deal with him to pin it on him in exchange for removing troops from SA. Bush did it without a doubt.

[Loonman]

36. MIHOP makes people sound like Art Bell freaks

Conspiracy nuts, you know?

[Loge23]

38. IHOP options are hard to prove

Such a broad conspiracy is very difficult to conceal. There would have had to be too many people involved for all of them to remain silent about this.
I felt the same way about the Kennedy assassination for years. Unless everyone was killed off, someone had to know something. Sometimes we just have to accept what happened as incredible, but true.
BUT! Keep up the theories and I'll listen!
BTW, I chose option #2

[StrafingMoose]

40. I often hear that...

But I think it's an easy-chair position, not intending to offend you at all though.

Bureaucracy has many chokepoints, chokepoints where the information can't get higher if someone sits on it. You wouldn't need 10 people to sit on a FISA warrant request to search Moussaoui's laptop -- just one Supervisory FBI SA and the trick is done. Crossing over your boss in the FBI, CIA, etc its reprimanded harshly.

Many people in key positions that 'failed' miserably on 9/11 were promoted, a sign that they are willing to keep on sitting on valuable information without asking questions, IMO.

[StrafingMoose]

39. Voted:

"Bush knew specifically what was going ot happen and spefically "Let it Happen""

And the ensuing stiffling of investigations both before and after, did the rest. But the "who really did it" question is another topic though...