OMG! Dean's only MinorityStaff was Part-Timer? Was this a Real Government?

[Raya]

Does anyone know who many paid staffers worked under Governor Dean in Vermont? I knew Vermont’s pop is only a few hundred thousand, but I assumed I still had a meaningful “Government.”

Is anyone else scared shitless that the Vermont Government was perhaps just a few dozen dedicated folk and some part-timers working second jobs?

Was Governor Dean pulling a fast one when he tried to suggest that he had “Senior Staff” minority employee (not in “Cabinet”) when he was referring to only 1 part-time black woman in his entire administration?


THE ISSUE IS: Does Dean really have ANY EXPERIENCE to prepare him to lead the free world? Is there something I don’t see here?

- - - - - - - - -

ROSS SNEYD (Associated Press Writer)


MONTPELIER, Vt. January 12, 2004, 7:08 PM EST

. . . . . . . . . . . .

None of Dean's five cabinet secretaries or top commissioners was Hispanic or black during the more than 11 years he served in office, as he was forced to concede during a Democratic presidential debate Sunday.

Dean pointed out during the debate that he had hired as a senior staff member a black woman. He did not mention that Bonnie Aten-Johnson worked part time for her first year on his staff while keeping a job with the Burlington, Vt., schools. She worked at least another year full-time, his campaign says.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-democrats-minorities,0,1698744.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines

[liberalnurse]

1. You got a beef against part-time black employees?

:mad:

[hellhathnofury]

3. The hatred on this forum is astounding.

Who could have a beef with part-time black employees?

[Eloriel]

54. Nice selective editing, Raya

Do you do that often?

Here's the rest of the paragraph and another two to boot -- but people really should read the whole article -- unless, of course, they'd rather NOT be informed of the truth on this matter:

Dean pointed out during the debate that he had hired as a senior staff member a black woman. He did not mention that Bonnie Aten-Johnson worked part time for her first year on his staff while keeping a job with the Burlington, Vt., schools. She worked at least another year full-time, his campaign says.

Contending that recruiting minorities for high-level posts in state government is difficult in a state that is nearly 98 percent white, one black leader who met regularly with Dean praised his efforts as governor. He recalled turning down Dean's requests to serve in the administration.

"He asked if I had an interest or if I knew of anyone who had an interest," said Vaughn Carney, a lawyer and executive with a financial services company. "I myself was constrained by other commitments. I wasn't aware of anyone who would be qualified or would be available."

[Don Claybrook]

2. Catch your breath and relax and keep the OMG's to a minimum

You're going to be OK.

What's the issue here? Is Dean now a racist, or is he inexperienced, or are you getting some sort of small state phobia?

By the way, where's this free world you're talking about?

In any case, just be calm, breathe, and I'm sure some friendly folks around here can help you through your crisis.

[slinkerwink]

4. when Dean was lieutenant governor, he still worked as a doctor

and man, this post is just so fucking stupid.

[Raya]

7. Hey I really freaking to think how small the VT gov was!

[TLM]

55. Yeah because we know how much voters hate the idea

of small efficient government that has balanced budgets.

[Don Claybrook]

10. Uh oh, there could be trouble

It just occurred to me that the implication might not be that the staffer was employed part-time, but that the staffer was only black part-time. Dean is hiring shape-shifters! Guess I'll have to throw my support toward Lieberman. He'll know what to do about those shape-shifters.

[MoonAndSun]

12. Don, you just made me spit my water all over my laptop.

LOL, good post.

[mouse7]

17. But... but... shapeshifters are minorities.

Hell it's hard enough for Dean to find minorities in Vermont. You want him to exclude shapeshifters, too?

[bitchkitty]

62. HAHA!

Good one

[Champion Jack]

11. I'm with you

This post is pure Dumbass freeper crap

[Tempest]

5. Black Leaders: Dean Tried to Appoint Minorities

Leaders: Dean Tried to Appoint Minorities

By ROSS SNEYD, Associated Press Writer

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=536&e=3&u=/ap/20040112/ap_on_el_pr/democrats_minorities

MONTPELIER, Vt. - During more than a decade as Vermont governor, Howard Dean (news - web sites) did not appoint any blacks or Hispanics to his Cabinet, but minority leaders say it was not for lack of trying in the nearly all-white state.

<more>

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

13. The article is rather insulting.

I live in the lilly white suburbs of Seattle. Yet I can think of two State representitives in my county who are black, one who is Korean born and one Everett city councilman who's black.

I foind it hard to believe that Dean could not find a qualified mirnority during the twelve years he was Governer.

[Davis_X_Machina]

14. There are perhaps 4.500 non-white

adults in the state. Most of them are already working. And I presume you want qualified, not token, appointments. What are we talking, a couple hundred people, tops?

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

15. So you are saying minorities in Vermont are not qualified.

That's too bad. The same seems to be true about its former Governer.

[mouse7]

18. No...the qualified one were recruited, and wouldn't take a pay cut

Vermont state government didn't pay enough for them to quit their jobs.

[beaconess]

22. Then how'd they manage to get all of those white people to serve?

So now the defense has shifted from "there weren't any qualified black people in the entire state of Vermont" to "the qualified black people in Vermont turned us down because the salaries were too low."

Sorry, but that's bullshit. They didn't have any trouble finding white people to serve. A minimum of effort would have enabled them to find qualified blacks who were willing to take these positions for the salaries offered.

These are the oldest excuses in the book and I don't buy it. This is what people ALWAYS claim when it's pointed out that they have been less than inclusive in their hiring practices. The fact that so many Dean defenders are making these pathetic arguments does not speak well of the people who are supporting this candidate. You guys sound no better than Republican apologists who attack affirmative action, accuse everyone who questions their commitment of "playing the race card" and impugning the qualifications and fitness of minorities.

To his credit, Dean is not making these arguments but I think he would be disgusted if he knew so many of his supporters were doing so in his stead.

Shame, shame, shame.

[Davis_X_Machina]

24. "All those white people"

...put together couldn't put on a softball game against each other.

It's a small state.

[beaconess]

34. Dean made more than 30 cabinet appointments in his 12 year tenure

we're not talking about just 6 appointments.

[TLM]

59. SO are you claiming Dean's cabinet had 100% roll over every term?

He appointed the same folks over and over again for the most part.


And this idea that Dean should somehow have to scour the nation looking for a token minority to appoint, while skipping over folks from Vermont, is just stupid.


It is one thing to not discriminate based on race with those applying for a position... it is entirely another thing to say that he should HAVE to discriminate based on race and only hire a minority, even if it means recruiting someone out of state just because they're black or Latino.

[bitchkitty]

64. Sigh....

They just can't grasp the concept. Maybe too many numbers? Shall I whip up a spreadsheet?

[Eloriel]

57. It's such a shame people can't bother to read an article

before they pontificate.

Here -- I brought it to you:

"It wasn't that Howard didn't try," said Kathy Hoyt, Dean's former chief of staff. "He asked everybody to recruit for us in the minority community."

Hoyt said one effort to recruit a black man to the Cabinet fell through because he would not be paid as much as he was making in Massachusetts. She could not recall the man's name or the position he was offered.

Campaigning in Iowa, Dean explained that with a handful of Cabinet slots and little turnover, he didn't have many positions to fill, and he had trouble competing with better job recruiters such as IBM and the University of Vermont.

Separately, in an interview with American Urban Radio Networks, Dean said IBM engineering jobs and teaching positions "paid a lot more than you do in state government," and until recently, "the African-American average income was higher than the white income."

[Davis_X_Machina]

19. I am saying that at cabinet level...

...your Commissioner of Education is going to be a serving or former school superintendent, for example, and it wouldn't take a gross statistical anomaly, or a racist conspiracy, for there to be none in the state, or none in the state willing to change jobs.

Ditto Attorney General, ditto Commissioner of Public Safety (Major or higher in the State Police, usually, before coming over). Sometimes you'll go out of state for a director of Health and Human Services, but that depends on the state.

It's a very white state, and a very small state, and Howard Dean didn't make the state white, or small.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

25. Yes and my State (Washington) is very white also.

Yet in addition to what I've pointed out already we have a Chinese Governor. The County executive of the largest county is black. Even a more conservative city like Spokane once had a black mayor.

What you say about Dean may be true but you can see from my experience why I'm skeptical

[Davis_X_Machina]

33. Vermont has, practically speaking, no cities.

There's nothing in VT like the Seattle-Tacoma area.

There's also been no historic immigration into VT, except for French Canadians next door, and that was over by 1950.

The Spokane metro area alone is two-thirds the size of the whole state of VT.

The city of Spokane proper is five times the size of Burlington VT, and it's still 90% white.

I think the mayor of Spokane, though probably an admirable man, was so anomalous as to prove little about the broad-mindedness of Spokanians, or the presumptive bigotry of Northern New Englanders.

In this country, for a host of reasons, you're not going to get a lot of diversity without significant urbanization.

The smallness and whiteness of VT are not Mr. Dean's doing.

[JaneQPublic]

51. Non-Whites are 15% in WA but 3% in Vermont

Washington:
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?ds_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U&geo_id=04000US53&qr_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U_DP1

Vermont:
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?ds_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U&geo_id=04000US50&qr_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U_DP1

[Eloriel]

58. I can see from your experience why your

skepticism is misguided.

I lived in the NW for a while. You can't compare the two states at all. WA is MUCH larger than VT (not to mention a massively larger population) and while there aren't that many blacks in the NW (as say compared to the south, in general), I'll bet there's a much larger population than in VT.

I also don't think it's a biggie that you've got a Gov of Chinese ancestry. The Chinese flooded into the west coast states in the 1800s, and most of the racism of that era has long since dissipated. It's GREAT you've got him, but not all that laudable IMO. I'd be far more impressed if you had a Native American Governor.

Eloriel

[Yupster]

49. Does the Commissioner of Education

have to be from Vermont?

I know police chiefs and school district superintendents are often recruited from out of state. I don't know about cabinet positions.

[Davis_X_Machina]

53. It would be unusual...

...I don't know of it ever happening in northern NE.

You will get Corrections Commissioners and such brought in, because that's a rather narrow specialty.

State Commissioners of Education are generally from drawn from within the states-- there are teachers' unions, superintendents and municipal government types to work with and around, where a political creature who knows the players already is a better fit. It's probably the second most political post in a state government -- far more so than AG.

[KuroKensaki]

21. Listen..

Vermont's population--613,090
Vermont's percentage of population that is black--0.5%
Total number of black people in Vermont--3065.45 (that last guy must be in a lot of pain)

I'm way left of Dean. I disagree with him a lot. I don't want to see him get the nomination. But I can't fault him for not having any minorities on his 5-member cabinet.

If the cabinet were 1000 people and each person was considered qualified for the job and each position was given randomly, you would expect 962 whites, 5 blacks, 4 native Americans, 9 Asians, 9 Latinos, and 14 others.

If the cabinet were 200 people and each person was considered qualified for the job and each position was given randomly, you would expect 192 whites, 1 black, 1 native American, 2 Asians, 2 Latinos, and 2 others (rounding off uneven fraction here).

If the cabinet were 50 people and each person was considered qualified for the job and each position was given randomly, you would expect 48 whites, no blacks, no native Americans, maybe an Asian, maybe a Latino, maybe 2 others.

The cabinet is 5 members. Statistically, you -expect- them all to be white. That they are all white says nothing about Dean's race biases--Vermont is -96.2%- white.

I don't like the guy, but stop bashing him on this, it's a non-issue. Even Carol Moseley-Braun stood up to defend Dean on this one.

[Raya]

23. You Miss the Point. I just realized how amazingly small the VT gov was

[corporatewhore]

26. I believe austin has the same pop as vermont

[beaconess]

28. But this isn't about statistics

Dean was constrained by no law that required his cabinet to exactly reflect the demographics of the state of Vermont. One would think that if he were truly committed to equal opportunity and diversity - as he claims - he would have been willing to take the outrageously bold step of having a cabinet that was a tiny bit more diverse than the state's population.

Moreover, even if the only appropriate cabinet was one that directly reflected the racial demographics of the state, your argument doesn't hold up. Yes, at any one given time, Dean had a 6-person cabinet (5, not 6). But he served 5 terms and, thus had more than 30 opportunities to appoint these positions. Thus, while 4% of 6 doesn't add up to one whole person, 4% of 30 does. Thus, had Dean hired appointed one minority to his cabinet, he would have accurately reflected the state's demographics.

Perhaps you can answer this question - no one else has so far. Why is it that you guys are so insistent that bringing one African American cabinet member on board would have meant that Dean's cabinet did not exactly mirror the demographics of the state and, thus, for some reason, would have made the cabinet too diverse, yet you have no problem that Dean's actual cabinet was 100% white and, thus, not representative of the state's demographics either? Obviously, he couldn't bring in 1/2 or 1/4 of a black person, so he had to round up or round down. Why couldn't he have rounded up? Yes, that would have meant that the statistic was skewed slightly in favor of minorities, but would that have been such a disaster?

[Davis_X_Machina]

29. And this wouldn't have been insulting tokenism how? n/t

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

30. Why is asking this question considered bashing?

I think it's very legitimate.

Thank you for your response never the less. At least you provided me with some answers I was looking for.

[bitchkitty]

63. Yea yea yea.

[Davis_X_Machina]

6. In a state where the capital city...

...is smaller than some high schools, and the Governor and his wife have listed numbers in the phone book, a cabinet of five seems entirely likely, and having part-timers in some of the non-cabinet positions seems entirely probable, too.

Is anyone else scared shitless that the Vermont Government was perhaps just a few dozen dedicated folk and some part-timers working second jobs?

I'd be scared shitless, except Maine runs this way too, and we seem to be doing OK. My principal makes $20,000 more than the governor.

It seems to me it would be easier to hide a faker in a large state, like Texas, or a massive operation like the US Army.

I've met the last four governors of Maine, without working especially hard -- it's different in a small state.

[DuctapeFatwa]

8. Shouldn't the All-White thing help Dean ?

Wasn't there a concern that he might not resonate with the alienated rural southern white male voters?

Maybe Sharpton did him a favor ;)

[beaconess]

42. This incident once again highlighted that many Dean supporters don't

understand and don't agree with Dean's positions.

Dean has repeatedly claimed that he is a strong proponent of affirmative action. But this debate has revealed many of his supporters are strongly opposed to affirmative action. Oh, yes, they claim to support it and they probably do - at least in theory. But when it comes down to the nuts and bolts of it, it turns out that they are just as antagonistic to the actual practice as those on the other side of the aisle who fight civil rights at every turn.

If these folks weren't claiming to be Dean supporters, their vigorous arguments against diversity in hiring and education would lead one to assume they were right wing Republicans - after all, they are making all of the same arguments that those folks make to justify discrimination and attack any reasonable attempt to remedy it through affirmative action.

I sure hope Ward Connerly isn't lurking here. I can't imagine how much inspiration he would receive upon learning that so many so-called Democrats are in full agreement with him.

[Rose Siding]

9. The whole legislature is a "citizen legislature" in VT

It's ALL part time. I'd imagine lots of govt positions are part time.

[liberalnurse]

16. Apparently this need to be revisited.....

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=536&e=3&u=/ap/20040112/ap_on_el_pr/democrats_minorities


<snip>

Dean pointed out during the debate that he had hired as a senior staff member a black woman. He did not mention that Bonnie Aten-Johnson worked part time while keeping a job with the Burlington, Vt., schools.


Contending that recruiting minorities for high-level posts in state government is difficult in a state that is nearly 98 percent white, one black leader who met regularly with Dean praised his efforts as governor. He recalled turning down Dean's requests to serve in the administration.


"He asked if I had an interest or if I knew of anyone who had an interest," said Vaughn Carney, a lawyer and executive with a financial services company. "I myself was constrained by other commitments. I wasn't aware of anyone who would be qualified or would be available."


Carney accepted posts on three low-profile commissions. "Those who have assumed the mantle of leadership in Vermont's very small black community are fully aware of Dr. Dean's commitment to inclusion, to diversity, and to fairness," he said.

[RetroLounge]

20. OMG! OMG! omg... whatever...

What's your problem with a part-time black woman in his administration?

[Raya]

27. Problem IS: That was all Dean had to point to. Mind-boggling given all

his talk about the "only guy to speak to white people about race."

I guess he should have said "I can only speak to white people, because there are only white folk around here"

[Cheswick2.0]

31. Hey, I've heard that before

B-)

[hellhathnofury]

35. I've heard that before also.

B-)

[SaveElmer]

32. Hey I've got a solution - Constitutional Amendment

Lets just pass a constitutional amendment banning people from really small states, and states with small minority populations, from being President. Because you know, only people from really big states with large minority populations, like Texas, can really do the job.

[Davis_X_Machina]

36. It's more....

..."only Southerners are divinely ordained to govern" rubbish, and putting a diversity bow around it doesn't change things.

[nancyharris]

37. Much easier solution…

<”Lets just pass a constitutional amendment banning people from really small states, and states with small minority populations, from being President.”>

Wouldn’t it just be easier to nominate presidential candidates that have a record of Affirmative Action? Governor Dean could have had a minority in his cabinet if he had wanted to. And he would have had a minority in his cabinet if he practiced Affirmative action.

[Davis_X_Machina]

40. Incorrect.

He would have half-a-minority if he practiced affirmative action.

Like President Clinton, who had a cabinet that looked like America, Governor Dean had a cabinet that looked like Vermont.

[SaveElmer]

44. Look at the numbers

Vermont has an African American population of about 4000 according to the 2000 census.

Vermont as a whole has a population of about 608,000

Of this 205,000 are under the age of 24 - about 34%

If we assume the same % for African American households, of the 4000 population, 1360 are under the age of 24.

This leaves 2,460 African American adults over the age of 24.

In the year 2000 Vermont had 29.4% of all adults 25 and over who held a bachelors degree or higher.

It is reasonable that a college degree would be a necessary prereequisite for a cabinet post.

If we assume the same % of college graduates in the African American community as the state at large we have 612 African Americans over the age of 25 with a college degree.

Now ask yourself, of this 612, how many have the qualifications necessary to hold a cabinet post ? How many would be willing to take a pay cut in order to hold that post ?

612 is not a large pool to pick from, and as been stated, Dean did try.

[hellhathnofury]

39. I would support that.

:toast:

How I love the Constitution.

[Raya]

41. Think we need a better Party vetting and nomination process

[SaveElmer]

45. To what end ?

To eliminate candidates from small states with low minority populations ?

[WiseMen]

56. Maybe to stop hosting 9 Candidates on 29 Debates

[msanger]

38. Vermont is so white...

I lived there in 1982, in Montpelier - the state capital. A friend of mine decided he wanted to have a mo-town record party, which everybody thought was crazy.

But this guy managed to get the support of a local radio station, hired a bar for the night, and put posters all over the place. A couple of hundred folks showed up for the Great Mo-Town Dance. I remember there was at least one black woman with a ten or twelve year old son who showed up. There might have been anohter black couple or two. But it was noticable that even this women and her kid showed.

So while it would have been nice if Dean had a black or two on his staff, it doesn't seem like an anamoly.

By the way, the dance was great, and I fell in love with a women whose boyfriend was out of town for the night. Talk about the blues!

[DuctapeFatwa]

43. Why is it so white?

[Davis_X_Machina]

46. History and geography

No slave population to speak of before state emancipation, if there were ever slavery at all.

Vermont played a role on the Underground Railroad, so in a sense its African American population is actually to be found in the long-rooted black population of Toronto and Montreal.

No big cities to speak of, so it wasn't a target for the Great Migration out of the South in the 30's, 40's, and 50's. Few African Americans as a result.

No seaports, so it wasn't a target for immigration from abroad, French Canadians excepted. Few Asians as a result.

Such agriculture as was practiced -- up here they say you don't farm, you just re-arrange the rocks -- was family-farm based, so no farm workers to speak of, unlike CA and other agribusiness states.

What specialized work there was -- quarrying, for example -- tended to be found in specific European ethinc groups. The Finns and Italians were great stone-cutters.

In-migration is probably similar to the present US east-coast population, but has been very small. Vermont is one of the slowest-growing states, and went from 2 US reps to one sometime in the 1930's or 20's IIRC.

[WiseMen]

65. Like IOWA and NH, Vermont is really so unlike the U.S.A.

[Davis_X_Machina]

68. Unlike your corner of the USA....

...or your idea of the USA, in other words.

[liberalnurse]

47. That is really a racist comment to assert

at this point in time. I'm offended.

[Davis_X_Machina]

48. How so?

Every state with a substantial minority population with the exception of CA, AZ, and NM owes that population to a combination of the factors I listed. (HI & TX have a very tangled story, having each been a country at one point)

Give me a counter-example.

[fob]

50. Quick, How many black republicans are there in Congress?

No soup for you!

Next!

[hellhathnofury]

52. How many serving Black senators are there?

[sleipnir]

60. Racist post to say the least....

[Constitution]

61. Maybe he should try to be mayor of some large city instead of Pres

It would better prepare him.

[KaraokeKarlton]

66. Don't get your knickers in a twist

Virtually all of Vermont's government is part time, even Lt. Governor and the legislature. In light of that, I'd hardly be offended that minorities got the same part time status as the second in charge of the state.

[snyttri]

67. It's what floor she was on that counts.

[Moderator]

69. Locking....

1. If you start a thread in the General Discussion forum, you must present your opinion in a manner that is not inflammatory, which respects differences in opinion, and which is likely to lead to respectful discussion rather than flaming. Some examples of things which should generally be avoided are: unnecessarily hot rhetoric, nicknames for prominent Democrats or their supporters, broad-brush statements about groups of people, single-sentence "drive-by" thread topics, etc.


DU Moderator