What in Gay Hell has happened to DU?!?!

[Behind the Aegis]

I feel like I am in Gay Hell! I have NEVER seen such hateful remarks about gays at DU! There have never been so many threads about gays at DU but since the loss of the election everyone is looking for someone to blame. So who gets the biggest blunt of it? The bigots? NOPE! The crooked voting machines? NOPE! The ignorant voters? NOPE! The reason we lost...FAGGOTS AND DYKES! What the FUCK happened to DU!?! I come to this place to discuss ideas, debate, get REAL news, and be among "friends!"

To those that blame the gays or think the "gay issues" should be dropped from the party platform: FUCK YOU! You are a BIGOT! You can 'pretend' you are 'tolerant,' but you are still a BIGOT! I don't want your damn tolerance, I want my EQUAL rights! How dare you tell me I am not important enough to be included in the Democrat(ic) Party platform! Is my money not green enough?! My blood not red enough? My LIFE not important enough?! You are WORSE than a Rethug! At least they will call me a faggot to my face! You are a coward! GET BENT!

To those who have supported the inclusion of gays and their EQUAL rights: Thank you! You are the reason I am not leaving the DU! I am glad to see you view me and others like me as worthy of being granted equal rights! I hope you will continue to fight along with me until ALL people have EQUAL rights! Brightest Blessings!

To the supportive moderators: Thank you for your fast action at banning fag-bashers here! Thank you for making sure that DU understands ALL people deserve equal rights! Brightest Blessings!

If you are a homophobe (or gays make you 'uneasy'), admit it! It is the first step to recovery! There are plenty of us here who will help you overcome your bigotry!

[donheld]

1. Hang tough

I know you feel like your in hell, but don't give up. People are hurting right now. I've seen too much homophobia at DU also, but i've also seen a lot of strong support. :hug: We will get through it.

[LSK]

2. because people are getting conned by the media

Media keeps reporting about values being important in this election which is BULLSHIT.

We were robbed by the damn diebold machines. Can everyone please realize this ?!?!?!?!

[tedzbear]

3. The gay thing is to keep the attention away from Diebold.

And the hanging chads.

[LSK]

5. EXACTLY

[pk_du]

4. Stop worrying - there are only two kinds of folks with those posts

a) Freeps or psedo-freeps ( 90%)
b) Pseudo-Dems who were never dems anyway (10%)

[carpetbagger]

16. Three types.

The third would be people who just haven't figured out how to say what they're trying to say yet.

That group of people, if they could will it, would make equality happen as soon as they could. they've mostly just lost their heads, and are believing the charicature that the media, the tv preachers, and the GOP have painted them to be. For many on this board, this is the first election they've lost that they've been personally invested in. It's a hell of a dive when that happens.

So let's have some good fighting and acrimony here, some gentle challenges, and when everyone's sober, I bet we'll all be on board trying to elect a government that supports the rights of gay people, and the division over whether that support should be quiet or loud, explicit or implicit, will continue but both quiet down and not divide.

[choicevoice]

6. I understand how you feel

they have also suggested we give up on a females right to choose and never in my life have I seen such generalized hatred toward the south. It seems they just want to throw those of us in the "red" states out the window.

I'm pro choice, I support equal rights for all people, I live in a red state and i'm not leaving either

[Behind the Aegis]

7. YEA!

I have seen a few anti-choice threads too. I have seen more anti-gay ones and as a gay man, it really pissed me off. I agree with you though. I would no longer support the Democratic Party if they were saying "we support the states' rights to deny women choice over their bodies!" To say, hey we should back off of the 'pro-choice thing' would be just as odious to me!

Brightest Blessings!

[lilsourgoose]

8. I don't get the anti-gay stuff

I'm straight, and as soon as I realized we'd lost this one to the anti-gay fundamentalist dumb shits, I decided I'm going to do whatever I can to help legalize gay marriage here in CA.

[Behind the Aegis]

10. Bless you!

May the gods (or whom ever you chose) protect and cherish you! When you are not a member of a group you are willing to fight for, it really says something about your character (at least in my book)!

Brightest Blessings!

[Maat]

60. Me, too.

As soon as Bush 'won,' I dedicated myself to fightig for fairness, justice, and fundamental rights (especially same-sex marriage, or marriage for all).

[Cleita]

9. Scapegoat time again.

And it isn't the first time. As usual, I stay out of stuff like this because I really have nothing interesting to contribute. I love all our gay DUers though. They are among the best of the introspective and intelligent long time DUers

[Behind the Aegis]

12. You didn't stay out this time, did you?

Nope! You posted! You showed you care! You posted the most interesting contirbution...solidarity! :)

Brightest Blessings!

[LynnTheDem]

11. And that's why bushCartel used gay marriage to win their election.

When even supposedly progressive liberals spew hatred & blame, it's easy to see why uneducated morans like the religious zealot rightwingnuttery chose to vote for bush over their own lives.

[LiberteToujours]

13. Right on

And I'm sick of people here thinking we need to compromise with the Republicans on ANYTHING. As soon as we give them one thing, they'll demand another. The electorate simply won't respond positively to Republican-lite. It's been proven, over and over and over and over and over and over and over again but still people don't GET it. Look at Bush! He is as far right as they come but he still wins elections. Because the GOP knows how to frame the debate. That's what it really all comes down to. As long as we continue allowing the GOP to decide the issues, they will continue to win.

[Behind the Aegis]

15. Tres Bon!

That is my real issue. Who gets to decide the Democratic platform? Us or them?!! It should be us!!

[Tomee450]

58. Exactly!!!

[Maat]

61. Exactly!

n/t

[KharmaTrain]

14. Thin Skins Reign Supreme

I don't blame gays for the defeat, but I do see a lot here who jumped ship in a hurry and were some of the first to start yelling fire in a crowded fire.

No sooner was it becoming apparent that the election was getting away then there were posts here about how 4 more years were going to be the death & doom of the gays. It wasn't just one post, it was many...and at the time it was not what people like me were interested in reading.

I held my powder, but others didn't and soon it became anyone who said anything that offended gay members here were "homophobes"...and the knives and name-calling commenced. Again, not what people like me were looking to read.

I'll say there have been a number of very inclusive gay members who like to either dismiss any open dialogue about gay issues that ALL of us need to get in the open or excluse one who isn't gay or has been labeled as such.

Now on to your question. Does homosexual sex make this heterosexual uneasy? Damn straight (no pun intended...ok, maybe a small one) it does. Not my thing and it's not something I will ever be interested in. But that doesn't make me grade or brand others who believe that way. As long as you keep your private life private, I couldn't care whose having sex with whom. Just as much as I would assume you would offer me the same courtesy. Does that make me a bigot?

Let me attempt to play devil's advocate here and preface this with some background. I've worked with closest and openly gay people for virtually my entire life...and it really makes no difference to me as much as a black person's color or a Catholic's rosary. In most cases the people I worked with tried double hard to "mainstream" or to work within the systems and play by the same crooked rules we all do.

Somewhere in the 90's I began to notice a change. I was working with a group attempting to set up a gay radio network...including Amy Goodman. Initially it was a pleasure working with these people as they were really hard-working professionals who wanted to communicate their viewpoint and to their community. This changed into a power/ego game...as TVs didn't get along with the Lesbians who had problems with "the boys" and so on. I was "The Breeder"...and over time the fighting destroyed not only the radio show but a lot of friendships as well. Truth is I felt highly discriminated in that situation.

I noticed a change in other gay friends as well...especially in the past 4 years...a paranoia that, while is of concern, does hurt the overall attempts of the Democratic party since the Repugnicans use this as a wedge issue and count on over-reaction from gays to further divide the country (and Democrats) and unite their herd.

I'm firmly in favor of equal right for all PEOPLE. Not for groups, but for PEOPLE. Right now this place represents groups that are divided and polarizing...not attempting to dialogue like you are.

If that makes me a homophobe, so be it.

[Behind the Aegis]

19. "Thin skin" works both ways

I have seen your posts at other places, but I will only deal with what you have posted here. I will go point by point with what you posted.

I don't blame gays for the defeat, but I do see a lot here who jumped ship in a hurry and were some of the first to start yelling fire in a crowded fire.

I don't understand this analogy, so no comment on my part.

No sooner was it becoming apparent that the election was getting away then there were posts here about how 4 more years were going to be the death & doom of the gays. It wasn't just one post, it was many...and at the time it was not what people like me were interested in reading.

That is fine you didn't want to read that, but this administration is very dangerous to gays. A SC appointment could the Lawrence v. Texas decision overturned, which would re-criminalize consensual gay sex. It would also open the door to other forms of discrimination.

I held my powder, but others didn't and soon it became anyone who said anything that offended gay members here were "homophobes"...and the knives and name-calling commenced. Again, not what people like me were looking to read.

I didn't see that so, I can't really comment on it.

I'll say there have been a number of very inclusive gay members who like to either dismiss any open dialog about gay issues that ALL of us need to get in the open or excluse one who isn't gay or has been labeled as such.

That is a shame and it just goes to show you that not ALL gay people are alike.

Now on to your question. Does homosexual sex make this heterosexual uneasy? Damn straight (no pun intended...ok, maybe a small one) it does. Not my thing and it's not something I will ever be interested in. But that doesn't make me grade or brand others who believe that way. As long as you keep your private life private, I couldn't care whose having sex with whom. Just as much as I would assume you would offer me the same courtesy. Does that make me a bigot?

Does it make you a bigot to want people to keep private lives private? No, if you mean ALL people. Would I be able to tell you that I was planning a party for my partner? Could I tell you that I was happy he got a promotion? If that bothers you, yes, you are a bigot! I am not asking you or anyone else to watch me fuck! I don't want to watch you! If all you are concerned about is the sex part, then you are not a bigot...I will never force you to watch gay porn!

Let me attempt to play devil's advocate here and preface this with some background. I've worked with closest and openly gay people for virtually my entire life...and it really makes no difference to me as much as a black person's color or a Catholic's rosary. In most cases the people I worked with tried double hard to "mainstream" or to work within the systems and play by the same crooked rules we all do.

So have I.

Somewhere in the 90's I began to notice a change. I was working with a group attempting to set up a gay radio network...including Amy Goodman. Initially it was a pleasure working with these people as they were really hard-working professionals who wanted to communicate their viewpoint and to their community. This changed into a power/ego game...as TVs didn't get along with the Lesbians who had problems with "the boys" and so on. I was "The Breeder"...and over time the fighting destroyed not only the radio show but a lot of friendships as well. Truth is I felt highly discriminated in that situation.

Truth is, you were discriminated against. Gays can be bigots, too! There is much "in-fighting" in the GLBT community, but I am not sure what your point was here.

I noticed a change in other gay friends as well...especially in the past 4 years...a paranoia that, while is of concern, does hurt the overall attempts of the Democratic party since the Repugnicans use this as a wedge issue and count on over-reaction from gays to further divide the country (and Democrats) and unite their herd.

You should determine the Democratic platform, Democrats or Rethugs? If you believe in equality, then you should stand by that principle, popular or not!

I'm firmly in favor of equal right for all PEOPLE. Not for groups, but for PEOPLE. Right now this place represents groups that are divided and polarizing...not attempting to dialogue like you are.

If you are for equal rights for ALL, then stand up for up! No matter how unpopular it may be!

If that makes me a homophobe, so be it.

This makes me sad! :( You would rather be labeled a homophobe rather than make a stand for equal rights.

I hope that you see this post for what it is..education. I don't mean to condescend to you, simply, state my position.

Brightest Blessings!

[KharmaTrain]

23. Let's Take A Deep Breath...

Only a few quick comments as this appears to be a debate that isn't open to debate.

I've marched, spent thousands of hours and dollars in 30 years of standing up for causes...most unpopular. And I just finished spending 6 months and spent like a drunken sailor in my efforts in this election. I'm ready to go again and even strong and fight the good fight, but I'm tired of fighting fights against the people I was attempting to fight for.

Right now the Democratic party is in a shambles and unless there's a very honest and open evaluation of what went wrong, which issues require re-examination and how to breach the large communications gap (call it ignorance or what have you) that distorted our messages and messengers and led to Tuesday's defeat. Stark reality check time here.

Seems anyone who dares to offend a homosexual person here is a homophobe. I obvious offended others with speaking my thoughts, thus I've already been labeled. So be it. I've had worse in my life.

Yes, I consider homosexuality strictly a personal issue, not a social one. It's not the sex that creates the hatred (since we know the GOOP has its shares of gays) it's the image and the attempts at SOME to wear their homosexuality as a millstone and needs special protection. Equal right yes, special rights no.

All I'm seeking is some dialogue, I can see that isn't going to happen. I'm seeing a lot of closed minds...and of course that's what I'll be called just for using that term. LOL.

Yes, let's stand up...but first we have to pick ourselves up. We can all get up separately or we can give each other a hand then all rise up. Right now we're with few bullets in our gun...no House, no Senate, no Courts...so what's the options?

[Behind the Aegis]

26. Do you not hear your own words?

I am can debate quite well. I have not called you a homophobe. I have explained my position and have challenged yours.

I have NEVER asked or advocated for SPECIAL rights! I want EQUAL rights! PERIOD! If the Democratic party cannot stand behind that, I cannot support them!

I will say you seem to have some "fear" of gays. Not being around them or what have you, but you fear what we "do." No one here is asking you participate in gay sex, watch gay sex, or support a law advocating gay sex in public! What we are asking is that you not abandon us because it is not popular with the Rethugs!

What do we do? We stand strong! We do not cast off those we see as burdens!

[KharmaTrain]

31. Fear? I Fear Having Kids Killed In Illegal Wars

Seems you know me better than I do.

I have problems with people who wear their agenda on their sleeves and jump to conclusions without attempting to truly discuss and reason...and I'm seeing a ton of that around here lately. Not a very pretty sight and unless there's understanding and communications it's only going to get worse.

How do you know if I'm around gays or not. Honestly, I hope I'm around a lot of them and don't know since it's none of my business and they're going about their lives.

I'm Jewish and I think I can speak a bit about discrimination and state-sponored extermination. Besides the many first-hand stories I heard from my grandmother and other survivors, I saw the camps for myself. I know what mayhem like the rise of fundamentalism in this country can mean and how dangerous things are.

Trust me, the last thing I could ever do would be abandoning the concept of equal rights and a nation where there isn't fear or discrimination. I have known many gay people over the years and I knew this was stirring up a beehive, but people here wanted another perspective, I guess it's only a good perspective when it says what you want it to say.

[Behind the Aegis]

35. We have something in common

I never claimed to know you better than you know yourself...now who is being touchy?

I have problems with people who wrap their prejudices in "good intentions." And, I have seen plenty of that here, too!

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I didn't say you weren't around gays. I was saying you have a "fear" of gays. Not (a fear) of being around them....etc. I was saying that you "fear" the sex part not the people part. Notice to that I put "fear" in quotes. I don't think you quiver when a gay person nears you, it is being used as a generic term here.

My family is Jewish too! See, we have something in common! I practice another form of spirituality, but that is for another day. I was raised a Jew. I can read, write, and speak (some) Hebrew. I know our history and I follow the issues of Israel. So, I too know the horrors of state-sponsored extermination. I also was a Jew in the South! Now, since I know you are a Jew, i am going to approach this another way.....

Consider: Posts are being created stating it is the Jews fault Kerry lost the election. Those people are anti-Semitic and are probably freeps! They get the tombstones. Now, then there are those that state: "I have no issue with Jews, I work with some. But do the issues of 3% of the population really matter? It freaks out the religious right. Kerry should have never said he might support Israel because it makes him sound like a "Jew-lover." The democrats really need to take a more moderate stance and not mention Jews." How would that set with you? I would be PISSED! Now, let's take it to your level...."I work with Jews but as long as they don't discuss their holidays or religion, I am OK with them. Religion is a private issue and I shouldn't have to hear about when they need time off for odd sounding holidays." Have a problem with that?

We should not abandon ANYONE because the Rethugs have demonized them! If we leave them behind, the Rethugs win!

[KharmaTrain]

37. Let's Cut This Pie Another Way

I appreciate your dialogue and don't misconstrue my statements as being personal...they aren't...only the passions are.

Sounds like you've had your share of freeper boards, I'm not playing that game...just trying to engage in an honest dialogue where I can learn things and share thoughts that I hope help you learn as well. I appreciate your responses and staying up with this.

OK...I consider myself "culturally" Jewish...a Conservative believes there is no one way to spirituality and how one attains their own inner peace. As you say another issue. I think we can both agree on the problems of discrimination Jews get from other Jews...most notably Orthodox. Here are people who don't consider either of us Jews just because we don't walk their walk and talk their talk. Yet I'll protect their rights even if I disagree with their philosophy or lifestyle.

Tom Lykais really put religion and to a certain degree other lifestyle. No one is born a Christian or Jew or French or even Gay. These are labels tagged on us by others when we're born or along our life's path and we either embrace them or reject them. His point being we are the product of our environments and that it's hard to break out of it and look at it from a different perspective.

I don't fear the gay sex part as I don't have anything to do with it. Has never been an issue with me and never will be. I am viewing this as gay as a social/lifestyle/political issue...seems that gets awfully confused by people around here.

[Behind the Aegis]

38. Last thought...for now

I can appreciate passion, even misplaced (not saying yours is). It is a big motivator for me.

You can view gay as "social/lifestyle/political" and that is your right. I am here to tell you, as a gay man, it is about EQUAL rights! I have no gay "lifestyle." I AM gay! I was born that way, and will die that way. I did not choose it! My lifestyle is simple...My partner kisses me goodbye before he goes to work, I get up and search the want-ads, I play computer games, play with my pets and clean their cages, I clean the house, I shop, I watch TV, I kiss my partner when he comes home, we talk, we watch the "Daily Show" and "the Al Franken Show," I put him to bed, then I get on DU. Sometimes, I cry, get angry, laugh, sing, play, dance, drink, smoke, draw, write, and pray. How is my "lifestyle" determined by my sexual orientation?

I want to know that when I have to go to the hospital again (G-d forbid), that I will not be IGNORED by the doctors because I am not married to the man I love. I want to know that if something happens to me, that he will get the money from my policies to cover my expenses. I want his insurance to cover me as mine is about to expire. How is this radical? How is this evil? How is this NOT a civil rights issue?

With that, I must go to sleep. Be well.

[KharmaTrain]

40. My Last One, Too

You sound like you're life is like mine. Instead I have a wife whom I've shared 28 years with. We sure think we've built a lifestyle together. It has nothing to do with sex. But then I don't make a big deal about my marriage (and in today's heavily divorced world, there's discrimination there, but another topic, another time). Yes, you can say, we'll society accepts that. True, but it also has a "rule" that says what my wife and I do in our intimate moments shouldn't be made public. I'm not a heterosexual man (that word didn't even exist in common language until I was well into my 20s), just who I am as much as you are who you are.

There's a problem I encounter when discussing these topics with gay strangers who automatically go defensive...and I can undertand why. I can't tell if a person is gay or straight by sight...but I can by actions. This means that I've met some very great gay people who talk freely and openly as if it's as normal as my relationship and I think that's great...hopefully that's how it will be.

Here's my hopes your medical situation isn't serious, and yes, I'm very much in favor of you being able to use your partner's medical insurance just like my wife uses mine and visa versa. My wife's cousin is gay and has adopted two children who we visit and attempt to spoil on regular occasions. This is how things should be...and if we're not able to commuicate and accomodate here, how does that bode for creating the better future we both desire.

May good things be yours.

[AlienGirl]

44. Tom Lykis also refers to women as "sperm recepticles"

Not the best role model, IMO. And research suggests gay people *are* born gay...did you choose to be straight?

Tucker

[incapsulated]

34. *Ding, Ding, Ding* We have a winner!

"It's not the sex that creates the hatred (since we know the GOOP has its shares of gays) it's the image and the attempts at SOME to wear their homosexuality as a millstone and needs special protection. Equal right yes, special rights no."

Stay in the closet, hide your sexual identity and don't demand any rights... then I like gays just fine!

You are a homophobe. Period. No wonder you have had problems with gay people. Look in the fucking mirror.

[tedzbear]

20. Yeah, it does.

You said it, not me.

[Duncan Grant]

17. Hi, Behind the Ageis!

I don't think we've met but I have to tell you, I like your style. I feel like I just bumped into an old friend. :thumbsup:

As one of the more outspoken gay men around here I welcome an LGBT voice like yours! You have a combination of attributes that many of us cherish; intelligence and passion being the most obvious.

And a belated "Welcome to DU" to you! :toast: :pals:

[Behind the Aegis]

21. Why, thank you kind sir. **blush**

I don't know that I have seen your posts either. Maybe we hang in different circles. :)

I appreciate your kind words! I write from the heart. This also explains my writing style. I tend to be verbose and "flower-esque" in my writing, but it is what I know. I speak multiple languages and write in them, as well. I have adopted the more "European" style, as opposed to the "American" style.

Again, I appreciate you praise! :toast:

Brightest Blessings!

[foreigncorrespondent]

25. SF sweetie!!!

Sapph posted in our safe haven if you want to check it out. :)

[Duncan Grant]

30. Speaking of passionate voices...

your's is one of my favorites! :loveya: I saw Sapphocrat's post here at DU today (at long last). Very few write as beautifully as she does.

Anywho...I'll head right over! :hi:

[foreigncorrespondent]

50. SF...

...you my friend are one of those little bright sparkles in my eye. :loveya: I love your words of wisdom, and always read you. :)

And yeah, Sapph really knows how to write, and really knows how to get the message across, just she doesn't realize how much good she does actually do.

[Robeson]

18. Those who are "gay" bashing...

...have either fallen for the media spin, or are "outing" themselves as gay bashers. Don't worry, things will calm down. If they are truly gay bashing, then they are not truly Liberal. They are only exposing themselves.

[theoceansnerves]

22. i got your back.

if i see one more "gavin newsom cost us the election because he let those <fags> in san francisco marry" i'm going to freak.

[foreigncorrespondent]

24. Awww honey...

...you are still only fairly new here, you haven't seen the worst of DU.

A lot of us queers who have been here for quite some time could tell you war stories that would make your mouth drop to China.

Just try to ignore as much as possible, and jump in when you feel you have the strength to do so. That is the best advice any of us queers could give you, because that is what we all do.

Sapphocrat (who happens to be my partner) and I usually end up taking long breaks away from DU, because it can get a lot worse than this.

And remember the most important thing, if you manage to get one person to listen to you, then you have done more good than any of the homophobes in the world could ever imagine doing. :)

[Behind the Aegis]

28. thank you for noticing me! :)

I have actually posted after you and your partner. I believe you are in NZ? Right? I am glad my sisters are supporting me.

I work as an educator and counselor (when I had a job 17 months ago!). So, I value education and that is why I post...that and I have no one to talk to (my partner has to work to support us and goes to sleep early, besides he gets earfuls from me anyway. :) )

Brightest Blessings!

[foreigncorrespondent]

48. Unfortunately for me...

...I haven't actually noticed you until this brilliant thread you began. And I for one thank you for speaking up. And I am so sorry, I Haven't noticed you until now. Usually I am quite quick at welcoming new queer DUers, but I guess my ball has been slipping lately!

NZ is close enough, I'm actually in Australia, even though I do have ancestral ties back to NZ.

Keep up the good work my friend, you are one of the bright sparks us queer DUers need, especially now, with the heavy fire we are coming under. :)

[AnnitaR]

27. It made me sick..

I am a Southern, Christian, overweight, white girl, and it made me sick! I'm new to DU so I just didn't expect to find it here too.

Also, I'd personally like as many gays to move here to East TN as possible. Come on you know it'd be fun watching all the Fundies heads here explode!

[Behind the Aegis]

29. TN!

I may be there soon! Not east TN, but near Nashville, where I was born! Thank you for being a friend!

Brightest Blessings!

[Baja Margie]

32. We are not

anti-gay. Not at all.I guess I haven't been reading anti-gay stuff here, we're just wondering if anything will come of this Ohio black box deal.

Margie and Mike

[incapsulated]

33. Tell me who they are...

And I will rip them to shreds. :mad:

Some may be freepers (I'm getting paranoid after they came out of their sleeper cells).

Real DU'ers that are doing this should be ashamed and are no better than racists, imho, who don't want the Dems looking "too black" to get redneck voters. If that's how you feel, you belong in the other camp.

[Behind the Aegis]

36. you rock!

Some are freeps...some are just confused...some are bigots and think they are not. I am glad you are an ally! I have a big mouth myself! :)

Brightest Blessings!

[Ell09]

39. This isn't an open and shut issue

The first problem is that some at DU are quoting stats that say 24% of the Gay vote went to George Dubya Bush! Your demographic did not completely support John Kerry despite him taking a politically risky position in your benefit.

Let me state this CLEARLY before I go any further: I believe the Democrats are on the RIGHT side of this issue and the Republican position will look very bad in the history books written 20 years from now. I think as Democrats we should take pride in that.

Now, as a heterosexual, I think many on the board are wondering if supporting your right to marry was worth the cost of: allowing women the right to choose, bringing affordable health care to American, waising the minimum wage, lifting people out of poverty, prescription drugs from Canada, etc,etc.

The environment on these messageboards is VERY test right now. If our stance on gay marriage cost us the WhiteHouse and cost us Dubya selecting the judges that will rule for the rest of many DUers lifetimes, is it wrong to reconsider our party platform?

The first assumption hasn't been proven: that gay marriage was the dealbreaker for many Americans. What if it was Abortion? What if we had to allow prayer in schools to get elected?

It's a tricky question, what are we (as a party) willing to give up to get elected?

In my opinion, we might not have to give up anything. I think we need to do a better job framing OUR issues. Al Sharpton speaks more eloquently on OUR issues than just about anyone. Howard Dean frames our issues very well. Both of these men, fairly or unfairly, have been branded "unelectable". If John Kerry was more decisive in his beliefs on our issues and the DNC framed our issues in a better light, we could win some close elections. I don't think we could ever win a blowout nationally with our current social agenda, but I don't think the RNC could either with there social agenda.

[incapsulated]

43. yeah, right...

"The first assumption hasn't been proven: that gay marriage was the dealbreaker for many Americans. What if it was Abortion? What if we had to allow prayer in schools to get elected?

It's a tricky question, what are we (as a party) willing to give up to get elected?"

You are on the wrong forum, bud.

Go back home, you aren't fooling anybody.

[sgtyellerdawg]

46. gay fears

Yesterday in a LTTE in one of Memphis' papers a local stated that the "moral issues" line was one that he and many others would not ever cross and that the issues of abortion and gay marriage were more important to them than the economy, foreign policy and other social issues. I literally gasped when I read that. My mother and I talked about this and she said she heard several people on an NPR radio show mention the same mindset. That is incredibly scary to me and I can certainly understand how so many gays and, yes, women are terrified by this mindset. As someone (Charles Pierce?) said - it is pretty sad day in America when "gay marriage trumps dead soldiers in Iraq".... the gay movement (not meant as an insult) has been moving forward for so many years in a positive way and I believe from discussing this "moral values" thing with many of my gay friends that this incredible outpouring of antigay voters has made them very unsettled and scared. They not only fear for their right to be who they are but for their physical safety...if that is not a "moral issue" then I don't know what one is.

[Ell09]

47. what are you talking about?

Did you read the rest of the post? I wasn't insinuating we SHOULD give up those issues, just that NOBODY knows where the bar is on values.

It's obvious Gay Marriage is not popular in the United States right now. Alot of people on DU appear willing to give up that issue in order to WIN.

My point is that that the mythical "bar" on so called moral values might not be at gay marriage. It might be further to the right, we might have to give up on Abortion or allow prayer in schools to win in the South.

I AM NOT WILLING TO GO THAT FAR.

Instead of giving in to the Republicans, we need to state clearly and proudly what our values are. Health care for All Americans, a minimum wage that is a living wage, shelter for the homeless, good schools for all kids,ending discriminations against all minorities etc,etc. Those are our "morals" those are our "values".

[Behind the Aegis]

54. I got your point.

I think you are right. No one knows for sure if the "moral issue" all the fundies voted for was "gay marriage" or something else. Another poster talked about a LTTE in Memphis that stated it was gay marriage AND abortion. So, according to the posters who want to "dump" gay marriage, it looks like we should be prepared to "dump" abortion rights! I still stand by, we SHOULD NOT let the right wing determine OUR platform!

Thanks for your comments!

[linazelle]

41. "fag bashers"??? How much mnore hateful can YOU be? nt

[AlienGirl]

42. No appeasement of bigotry!

There is NO WAY our party should abandon the platform of equal rights. We must not sell our soul to appease bigotry; to do so would be to abandon the progressive cause, and I for one will never do that.

Tucker

[terrya]

45. I've had some time to sleep on this...FUCK THE HATERS

And fuck the people on here who would dare to deny me my rights

I STILL can't believe the hateful, homophobic bullshit I read here last night. Every last single one of you who participated in it should be ashamed of themselves...if they have any shame, which I seriously doubt. If you traffic in homophobia, you are a bigot. Pure and simple.

And to the good supportive people here who believe in the same causes I do...thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Terry Andrews

[Skittles]

49. I AM TAKING NAMES AND KICKING ASSES

IT IS F***ING APPALLING some of the stuff I have read. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

[ithacan]

51. gays are the new jews

the Bush fascists need their jews, but you can't target jews anymore.

But it's okay to target gays. It's sanctioned by their "god" and there's no negative fallout for the Bush fascists.

The really really sad thing is that any democrat would jump on that bandwagon.

One good sign: Generational difference, where young people by very significant margins have very different views of gays, gay marriage, etc. than older people.

And regional differences (blue states).

The absolute WORST thing that could be done is to buy into the right wing extremist agenda of hatred. It only fuels them and makes THEM stronger, while it weakens the forces of justice and progress in this country.

[Behind the Aegis]

59. That is what makes this all so scary.

People are willing to turn away because it doesn't affect them. Well, at some point, all the fays will be rounded up, who do you think they will go for next?

[okTracer]

66. Red states

Problem is the red states are not all that red... in most all of the so called red states roughly 49% of the voters voted for Kerry. Problem is the other percentage colors the electoral maps all red.

Now we are hearing news reports of voter fraud ... (black boxes)... makes you wonder just how red are these states.

It just pisses me off when I hear B*sh telling Democrats his way or the highway.

[SmokingJacket]

52. Gays and Lesbians: Please don't leave DU!!!

It's got to be temporary insanity or a freep-invasion.

I'm sickened by the rising homophobia of our culture. Overt and unapologetic racism is next, I suspect, after hearing the shit that comes out of Limbaugh's piehole.

If we can't stand together here, we can't stand together anywhere... and I suppose that's why freeps are coming around and disrupting.

[CTLawGuy]

53. I did my part

I pushed hard to nominate a candidate who put his neck on the line to institute civil unions in Vermont.

It's sad that the power brokers in this party feel that you have to run away from your base and ideas to win. Tuesday proved that all is bullshit.

[slackmaster]

55. Some of my best friends are gay

Just trying to introduce some badly-needed levity.

:dunce:

[George W. Dunce]

56. I just think

The gay community here in Mass is selfish. Why could they not wait one more year for this gay Marriage Act? Would that have killed any one? We knew there was going to be a national backlash against Mass and at the same time the candidate from Mass. Why couldn't this have waited untill after the election?

[okTracer]

67. We are not selfish

You think that asking for the same rights as you is selfish...

SHAME ON YOU

[GOPNotForMe]

57. We'll pull through.

And you're right about everyone looking for a scapegoat: Fuck them.

[Sid Demo]

62. I think the point is...

That everyone at DU supports gay rights/gay marriage, but we recognize the fact that this issue is probably what drove the masses of idiots to the polls and resulted in the loss of election. Until the laity steps up and we outnumber these single issue voters, we are going to get hung in the elections.

[niwi]

63. you're right

It sickens me, too. Please don't leave!

[starbuck6446]

64. It makes me sad... Was just talking to my mom and dad about this---

First I have to say that I am a Christian - and an evangelical. Please don't stop reading there...

What makes me sad is that as Christians, our greatest commandment (as given by christ) is to love one another as we love ourselves.

Does the Bible say that homosexuality is a sin? Yeah... does it say that lying is a sin? Does it say that greed is a sin? Does it say that gluttony is a sin? Does it say that adultery is a sin? Yes, yes, yes, yes....

My question is when did homosexuality become the token sin??? When did it get to the point that Jerry Falwell can stand in a pulpit and threaten to kill a gay man that looked at him - and get cheers from the congregation???

When I look at some Christians, all I see is foaming-at-the-mouth hate. Christ surrounded himself with the so-called "unsavory" and "misfits" and gasp! "sinners" as his disciples. I would feel QUITE safe betting my life's savings that his disciples and Christ himself, wouldn't be welcome in most evangelical churches.

?????? I just don't get it????? How are we supposed to demonstrate the love of Christ with all this hate????

[Behind the Aegis]

65. You make some really good points

I think it is time for Christians to reclaim their religion from Xtians! I call them Xtians because they have taken "Christ" out of the equation!

[okTracer]

68. Christ and homosexuality

You would think that if homosexuality is such a sin you would think Christ would have something to say about this issue.

[Trahurn]

69. I Personally Am Very Sorry

As a democrat and a person I am absolutely disgusted with all the anti gay and various other homophobic rantings being posted on this list. Democrats are supposed to believe in rights and equality for all people and not what drum beat they choose to walk to. Gays or straights they are the exact same human beings with the exact same needs and wants in life and they need to be able to be part of a party that will not desert them when the times get tough.
I know this. The administrator of this list has cautioned people that their homophobic posts are not welcomed here and the they will not be tolerated.
As a person and democrat that wants to treat everyone equally I apologize for what you are seeing. I am straight and I find it revolting as well. Please do not hesitate but to contact me if you require any kind of support on this issue.
Again I'm sorry.
Trahurn