So,some of you don't feel others of us Dems should criticize fellow Dems?

[KoKo]

I wonder how many DU'ers who were active and had "positions" in Dem Party in the last four years (who became activated and involved in State Party Structure after "Selection 2000) are now being trashed by those who criticize them? Those who think "some of us" don't know what we're talking about. Those who say "some of us" trash Democrats on DU Board for no reason other than that we are "plants, folks from that other website, or clueless idiots?

I wonder? If one has been involved and seen our Dem Party Structure from the "INSIDE" does one not have a duty to point out the failures we've noticed? Those of us "on the ground" and involved and who've observed?

:shrug:

[umtalal]

1. What is going on?

[KoKo]

16. Here are the "locked" links to what I was referring to...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1498662&mesg_id=1498662

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1498818&mesg_id=1498818

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1499067

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1498748

[wndycty]

17. JEEZE!!!!!!!!!! They were all dupes. . .

. . .am I a DLC plant by pointing that out?

[umtalal]

22. Clearly you are upset KoKo. I don't plan to watch the media anytime soon.

but the DNC better send better speakers. We need to regroup and organize.

[Racenut20]

2. You could .....

Point out and improve those things from within..... Or you could flash some ink and trash with no obvious purpose here except to attempt to show how right you are, and improve or accomplish nothing except bad feelings.

[Atman]

3. Perhaps it is coming from a different angle...

You must keep in mind that the reason the republicans have been successful at stealing the public discourse, framing the debate, trashing the left, turning America into a cesspool of hate, is because they DON'T EVER DISAGREE WITH ONE ANOTHER, at least not publicly. They must chortle with glee looking at us roll in the mud on DU.

Of course, our epiphany is just being realized, and we have a long way to go to "catch up" with the slimey tactics of the right. Some say we don't want to be as slimey...but then, they're likely still in denial regarding exactly what it is we're up against; outright, full scale, no-morals, slime-oozing republican hate- and fear-mongering.

[KoKo]

7. But...I joined a site called "Democratic UNDERGROUND" after the 2000

stolen election. I found a group of folks who were as upset, confused and angry as I was. I networked with these fine people and now four years later...I can say...the networking here got me involved with my State Democratic Party...it got me reading and writing and faxing/phoning/e-mailing and out there so that I got elected to an office in my State Party.

I would never have done this if I hadn't found "Democratic Underground."

And, I'm networked like so many of you all are now to other organizations.

Some of us...if we criticize aren't doing it because we hate our party..but because we see the problems and want them corrected. It's long past time. We've lost three huge elections since Clinton.

Are some of you saying there's nothing wrong with our party? Or, is it just you want to trash those of us who say there is...to tar us with being "disloyal?" :shrug:

[itzamirakul]

30. Do you ever see any Republican acting like a Democrat?..

Maybe THAT's why they don't trash each other. In our case we have more DINOs at the top than we have true Democrats. Our so-called leaders try to out-Republican the Republicans. We HAVE to call them on it.

[wndycty]

4. Nothing wrong with criticism, but knee jerk reactions to poor MTP. . .

. . .appearances is another thing.

[KoKo]

9. I've seen Rahm Emanuel many times....you aren't thinking that

your experience maybe isn't mine and yours might be shorter time? :shrug:

Unless you go back to Nixon and have been watching this all for years?
All our Dems vs. Repugs...all these years.

[wndycty]

10. Say what?

:kick:

[KoKo]

21. ROFL...What? What? What did you say..?

[noamnety]

5. Depends

There is a difference between trashing someone and offering constructive criticism.

"He sucks" is never constructive. It's particularly nonhelpful when it is randomly thrown into a thread whenever a candidate's name is mentioned, even when the thread is on a specific topic unrelated to whether a poster likes or dislikes a person. For example, a discussion on Kerry meeting the Syrian president is not a constructive place to interject "I hate Kerry."

In a thread asking opinions about future candidates, it is constructive to say "I won't vote for a candidate that doesn't come out vocally as opposed to the war."

A good basic test is to decide if your criticism serves a specific purpose. Is there a specific strategy you hope to influence with your criticism?

[damntexdem]

6. Criticism to not trash fellow Dems can have the effect of ...

ending such trashing of fellow Dems -- by those who would no longer be Dems, as they trashed those same targets. Don't force Dems out of the Party needlessly, by trying to enforce GOP-like uniformity.

[kentuck]

8. I am as quick to criticize as anyone but....

I do hesitate to get into personal or individual criticism of people in our Party, unless it's Joe Lieberman...:) But I think we need to criticize the Party as a whole, rather than individuals. Anybody can have a bad day....including our Congressmen and women. We should not be so quick to criticize them for a bad performance - unless it becomes a habit. (like Joe :)) They are not supermen or women. Many of them are more average in their political skills and knowledge than many people here on DU, in my opinion. But, I do believe, most of them try very hard.

[Rowdyboy]

11. Relentless negativity leads me to question the motives of the poster

Pointing out problems is not a problem. Focusing entirely on the negative, being blindly critical of every Democrat who does not share your position, aiding George Bush by exploiting the divide in the party-those are behaviors that are unacceptable to me.

We will never win as a left-wing party (we never have). We rarely win as a moderate party. Unless we can learn to accept each other and respect our differences, we will never win again.

[KoKo]

13. Now...you do understand that I'm a "plant." I only posted this because

I was revealing myself...don't you? :eyes:

[Rowdyboy]

15. Koko. I've been reading you for almost 3 years now

and I usually know where you're coming from. Tonight, I haven't a clue. Sorry. :shrug:

We often disagree, but I usually at least know what you're talking about.

[KoKo]

19. It's Rahm Emanuel... I just posted the links to the threads in post #2

above. But, it's not just about Rahm...it's the general trashing of folks who don't believe going and evangelizing in the "fundie" neighborhoods of the red states or caving in like Tom Daschle did for years after Bush vs. Gore is "THE WAY."

Too many times our Dems have let us down. I see it on the State level here since I got involved with the last election. Our Dems are clueless about voting machine problems, disenfranchisement probles...and yes...they ARE in league with the Corporatists...at least in my state.

We have so much work to do..and it's amazing how bad it is out there with lack of organization, good ole boy networks, lack of openess to innovation and even the basics like updating voter registrations lists and Party Membership from the Precinct Level on up. Party claims there's no money to update even the people elected to office with phone numbers and addresses....

So Rahm Emanuel, Tom Daschle and the rests "cluelessness" makes sense now. And much in our party needs to be criticized and fixed. Ignoring it after three failed elections...to say nothing of the '92 and 96 problems where we lost the House and Senate under Clinton who was very popular...means that we will keep ignoring the problems that have caused us to deal with a depraved idiot who thinks he's an Emperor for another four years.

Am I angry and frustrated...YES...and you guys here should be too! If we don't make immediate changes we are looking at a fascist/totalitarian state in the US.. and our Dems will have been complicit... I don't want that..neither do any of you. How much longer can we "excuse" this incompetence? We either stand for something and know what we stand for...or we are nothing but a failed party pandering after the droppings from Karl Rove's tablecloth.

:shrug:

[KittyWampus]

27. It's Rahm Emmanuel? LOL! Last Week It Was Barak Obama.

it isn't amusing or productive.

[wndycty]

32. I'm waiting for someone to say Obama is not Black enough . . .

. . .and the sad reality is when it is said it won't becoming from one of my fellow African Americans. . .LOL

[amazona]

12. don't know the story behind the post

I think we should criticize where we see problems but criticize courteously. Not all Democrats are telegenic. I agree if you see a problem, report it, discuss it, deal with it.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[Pepperbelly]

14. this was certainly cryptic.

Sounds involved and I for one, haven't any idea what this is about. But I support your right to say it.

I guess.

:shrug:

[Rowdyboy]

18. Do you start to sense a theme developing here?

Several people have very politely asked you to help us get your point. We're not necessarily antagonistic, just somewhat confused.

[KoKo]

20. See post #19

[FrenchieCat]

23. I have seen a trend that is putting me off a bit...

in the last week I have read that

Obama sucks and ass kisses http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=258x586#596

that Charlie Rangel is a pile of shit http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1495231&mesg_id=1496368&page=

that Wes Clark eats piles of balls and is a phony
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1496316

and today that Rham Emmanuel needs to grow a spine and is an embarrasement (counted about 4 locked threads).....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1498748

In my opinion....with friends like some DUers...who needs enemies!

Considering that some of these Democrats are our best and brightest and have done a lot for this party (none of these are pink tu-tu Democrats either)....I think a little respect and loyalty could go a long way.

Seems like one mistake or none....the tolerance level here at DU is past the breaking point. Maybe it is because we painfully realize that no matter what we say against the Republicans....nothing happens. So maybe DUers are taking out their frustrations out on their own instead.

It's actually a sad spectacle and I am sure that the GOP and Presstitutes that read DU are totally delighted!

When will we "OVERCOME"?

[KoKo]

24. Who are we "playing to" here. An audience of Repugs or the American

public? I see a theme of "conciliation"...combing the red states to see how we can fit better in with the RW Repugs..and get closer to Jesus, values and the "American/Republican Way."

Was the Invasion of Iraq wrong? Was it illegal? Is what some soldiers did to the Iraqi's against the Genevea Convention? Do we as Democrats condone either of those?

Is Social Security in a Crisis. Should young Americans depend on Wall Street for their Retirement?

I think those are big questions that separate the Democrats from the Republicans. If at this point we don't have anyone who can forcefully argue those points then what kind of Party are we? What do we really believe?

How much more conciliation can we give the Repugs than what we've done so far...in trying to work with folks who don't want to be worked with. Yet, we are asked to subvert our principles into theirs? :shrug:

If no one can understand where I'm coming from ...it's very puzzling. I'm a lifelong Democrat...vote in every National and local election..

I am a Democrat...but I don't feel my party speaks for what the Democratic Party has always believed in. What's the problem with understand what I'm saying here?

[FrenchieCat]

25. I still think that one can express oneself.....

without calling anyone out....and/or by using disparaging language and using cheap putdowns.

No one is arguing with your point as to why you might be pissed.

But in the end, the examples that I illustrated (w/t links) are not helpful.

Cannibalism is never justified.

[FrenchieCat]

26. I don't think that there is only one right answer....

and I do agree that our Dem spokespeople and elected officials have to become much stronger and much more articulate about a lot of issues.

But keep in mind that a game plan that may work in Blue states may not work in Red States....if we want Dems elected. That's just the way that it is. We can think otherwise....but that's not the results that we have been seeing.

One of the appeals of the Democratic party is supposed to be this "big tent" that I rarely have actually seen. As Democrats, part of our appeal is supposed to be that we are more "tolerant" than the Republican party.

So if we start to draw a line in the sand....and state that you either have to do it this way.....or you are not a member of this party...I think will just result in us losing more voters. I don't see how this can bring us any "wins".

I hope that Democrats can walk and chew gum at the same time; that we can articulate more forcefully what we stand for and at the same time attempt to entice voters to join our ranks....letting them know that we feel their pain and do identify with them.

My point is that....certainly alienating our own Obama, Rangel, Clark and Emanuel by calling them names ain't the answer.

[Redleg]

29. It's like hearing a broken record.

Yes, I could put the serial Dem bashers on ignore but I don't.

[Redleg]

28. Some of us get tired of non-fucking-stop bashing of Dems at DU.

Some posters seem to specialize in criticizing Dems and pissing on the party.

[Lostnote03]

31. Dems are Easy!!!.......GOP adherents require more "strategery"...umm n/t

[ErinGoBraghLess]

33. Dems must admit mistakes

Koko: Judging from some of the reactions to my first few posts, I could easily get the impression that dissent is not allowed on this site. I think criticism of Dems -- be it policy decisions or be it politicians -- is critical to the advancement of the party. I am an attorney by trade and one of the main ways I prepare a case is to look at it from the other guy's point of view, i.e., what are the weaknesses in my own case? How is the other guy going to try to beat me? And so on. I don't do any service to my client if I just blow smoke up his butt and guarantee a victory. I have to spell out the truth for him. And if he messed up (I represent docs being sued for malpractice) I have to tell him he messed up and that a jury is going to kill him.

I think it's high time that Dems take some responsibility. We have lost the last two presidential elections (I am aware of the fraud allegations), and the House and Senate have both gone Repub. There has to be some reason for that other than Bush is an evil bastard. If that is the level of our analysis, then we are in deep trouble.