Rumor Confirmed: Rangel IS planning to reintroduce draft legislation

[Sparkly]

I was suspicious of the sources of this story when it came up a week or so ago, but I confirmed it. I got a reply from his press secretary, Emile Milne. So like it or hate it, it's true.

[trezic]

1. Good

It never should have ended.

[bowens43]

4. You're kidding right?

[Itchinjim]

7. If young republicans were being drafted,

shit like Iraq would have never happened. ( I dont support a draft however.)

[The Backlash Cometh]

14. Helllloooo. We just lost another presidential election because

Rangel and the rest of his pals didn't see the deceit coming. When they start the draft, they won't be prepared to see where it's coming from there either.

[forgethell]

37. In my opinion,

the absence of the draft restricts the commaner-in-chief. There are not unlimited numbers of men to send unwillingly into combat. Volunteer troops have to believe in what they are doing in order to stay in service (yeah, yeah, I know, still they can't hold them forever or get new troops if no one believes in the cause).

[Pirate Smile]

99. Here is what they are looking at to try and avoid a draft

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/19/15599/9342

A reliable source tells me that RAND has been contracted by the government to come up with a way to avoid instituting a draft, despite the desperate needs for more combat forces.
The solution? Outsource desk and logistics jobs to private companies while pushing those "chairborne" warriors out of their offices into fighting units.

Logisitic troops make up the vast majority of military personnel (somebody probably has the figure, but it's like 8-1 or 9-1 support to combat forces). The proposal would dramatically increase the number of fighting forces (though many of soldiers in support jobs will have no business being in the front lines), and the Haliburtons of the world would clean up taking over support functions.

One other thought -- female soldiers are generally relegated to non-combat support occupations. Would combat units be opened up to women in this scenario?

[Yupster]

106. This has been the cry of every army

in the world's history.

How can we increase the number of troops in the fighting units and reduce the number in the non-fighting units.

It's caused generals over centuries to pull their hair out.

[trezic]

10. I'm not kidding

A conscript army makes aggressive war much harder to start.

[bowens43]

13. Nonsense.

My guess is that you don't have a dog in this fight. Do you have draft age children? Will you be eligible for the draft? If you answered no to these questions then your opinion carries little weight with those of us who have something to lose..

[Vickers]

15. Just curious: were you in the military? (eom)

[trezic]

27. Actually

I'm not sure if I'm in still in the range or not. I keep hearing different things about whether the age will be changed or not. It really makes no difference to me whether I would be in range or not. I plan to join the army once school is over, regardless.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

52. You proved the point by saying "Do you have a dog in this fight?"

That's the point. If everyone did, they wouldn't accept their kids being used for the New American Empire also known as Operation Global Lynching.

And they'd quit just watching sports and buying electronic toys and sticking their heads in the sand.

They'd instead give a shit that people die all around them.

See my explanation below in this thread.

[jswordy]

91. Support our troops...

http://progressivebumperstickers.com/cgi-bin/liberal/bumperstickers.pl?start=0&perPage=20&search=376&submit.x=98&submit.y=7

[AuntiBush]

105. You make an excellent point!

You are sooo right!

[Al-CIAda]

19. A conscript army makes aggressive war much harder to start.

This is true...provided your government doesn't attack its own people and blame it on a country that it wants to take over.

[trezic]

28. Uh

Nice to see somebody agrees, though for a reason I didn't expect :P

[KansDem]

62. Take a look at "Operation Northwoods"

From ABC News:

U.S. Military Wanted to Provoke War With Cuba

Book: U.S. Military Drafted Plans to Terrorize U.S. Cities to Provoke War With Cuba
By David Ruppe

N E W Y O R K, May 1, 2001 In the early 1960s, America's top military leaders reportedly drafted plans to kill innocent people and commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities to create public support for a war against Cuba.

Code named Operation Northwoods, the plans reportedly included the possible assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and even orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities.

The plans were developed as ways to trick the American public and the international community into supporting a war to oust Cuba's then new leader, communist Fidel Castro.

America's top military brass even contemplated causing U.S. military casualties, writing: "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba," and, "casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation."
(more)
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1

Sound familiar?

You can expect it now...

on edit: Kennedy was smart enough to reject this insane plan. Was Bush?

[XemaSab]

26. I hear ya

it definitely increases the likelihood of the policymakers' near relatives going to war. (Shades of Fareinheit 9-11)

I think two years of either military service, peace corps service, or americorps service after high school would be a great experience for everyone.

[forgethell]

38. I think that

sounds like slavery to me.

[XemaSab]

40. If it's slavery

it's what they have in Germany and Israel.

[forgethell]

42. And your point is?? n/t

[XemaSab]

48. My point is

that other civilized nations have found compulsary military service to be a great way to maintain troop strength and keep the armed forces from being dominated by right-wingers.

[forgethell]

58. Ah! I get it now.

Slavery is good!!

Thanks!!

[The Sad Little Pony]

81. Perhaps...

Mr.Rangel should polish up his skills at rhetoric.

He should go to the floor of the house, and give a moving and convincing speech about WHY we should not be in this war.
If he cannot convice enough people, and gather their support...
...he should try again.

But forcing our children into Conscription is NEVER a substitute for a good argument.
That's just lazy.

The argument that a voluntary military is unfair, yet forced conscription IS fair, has always struck me as a bit too Orwellian.

[Charon]

114. I'm not kidding

I am not so sure that is a correct statement. The majority of the Wehrmacht and the Imperial Japanese army were conscripts.

[TahitiNut]

93. (R.I.P.) I agree. A 'professional military' in a democracy ...

... is an abomination. I favor Universal Service ... lacking that, a fair and universal draft is the next best thing. Male and female, straight and gay, ... everyone.

[sarcasmo]

2. In order to invade Iran the draft needs to happen.

Did you hear the Iran talk during the Rice hearings. I too feel the draft is a coming, good thing I am 36.

[forgethell]

39. No matter how

I twist that, it seems like you're saying Rangel supports invading Iran. Could this be true??

[bowens43]

3. Rangel is a fucking idiot.

He needs to be tossed out of our party on his ass.

[cthrumatrix]

6. they are corporate owned workers.... of course he would sponsor

this as opposed to thers

[rachelbirds]

17. I wish!

[hang a left]

34. What if?

What if everyone already knows a draft is coming?

[JohnOneillsMemory]

49. You don't understand how this works to favor PEACE, do you? Here:

It's called BREAKING THE BUBBLE OF DENIAL TO INCREASE THE RESISTANCE AND MAKE WAR NOT AN OPTION BEFORE THOUSANDS DIE.

TV Nation has been carefully cocooned in pointless trivial entertainment like sports and soap operas and celebrity piffle to KEEP THEM IN A STATE OF BOTH IGNORANCE AND DENIAL ABOUT THE WORLD AROUND THEM.

That's the job of the mainstream media.

As long as po' folk with dark skins are the only ones signing up to be fodder, the white middle class doesn't give a shit what happens to them or who receives the gift of 'freedom' from Lockheed Martin's bombers or Dow Chemical's napalm.

The system we have now is called the 'poverty draft.'Only people who have no other economic options join up to kill on command for chump change and bad health care. But volunteers are far more willing to do the dirty work and convince themselves it is 'Defending Our Freedom' than the pissed-off conscript who fragged their officers in Vietnam.

The NAACP does an annual dinner/pagaent event every year with the likes of Colin Powell attending because the US military has become a jobs program for blacks ever since the draft ended in 1973. Even Jesse Jackson takes huge bucks for his Operation Rainbow/PUSH Coalition from defense companies for PR reasons in the African American community and he treads lightly on the Pentagon for the same reason .

Once every one, I mean EVERY ONE's kids have their ass on the line, they pay attention to politics, get a clue, and resist.

That's what happened during the Vietnam War. Once the draft ended, resistance did too.

So Rangle's tactic is to bring the neo-cons policies to the attention of EVERY AMERICAN by putting their lives at stake, too. Not just the invisible volunteer poor people.

Does this make sense to you? It sure does to me. I was protesting the Vietnam war when I was 7 years old in 1968 because I KNEW could get drafted eventually. I felt the connection and the need to understand what the hell was going on.

And I do.

[KansDem]

63. I agree with you. I think Rangel is upping the ante and raising the bet..

...to see if the GOP folds. It's kind of bluff, I suppose, but one hopes it will force the GOP to either put up or shut up. I think he's betting they shut up. As you acknowledged, the American public is woefully unaware of what's really going on. This could be the slap of reality across their ignorant pusses that wakes them up.

[forgethell]

74. Still, it

looks like selling out your principles for political gain. Rangel is an idiot. the Repukes have long since seen through this clumsy ploy, and a draft will not pass during the * administration.

I pretty sure, too, that KKKarl Rove has somehow suckered Charlie into this. Rangel is an idiot, and will cost the Dems votes in 2006.

[MADem]

78. Every point you made is valid

And I agree with your logic. Rangel will scream bloody murder if there is any attempt to build in escape hatches for the kids of the wealthy, and the fact of the matter is, a lot of the nincompoops who voted for weecowboy aren't rich, they're just not very bright and shortsighted.

That said, I am ensuring that my loved ones are NOT qualified for service. Anyone with kids, document allergies, learning disabilities, chronic conditions such as bad backs, knee problems, anything orthopedic, and keep medical records. Ensure your kid isn't the full quid (less than full range of motion, pain, that sort of thing) if he (or she, could happen) is ordered to report to MEPS. Daily medication is usually a disqualifier, FYI.

I like Charlie Rangel. The man has guts, and he is telling these elites to put their children's lives where their "patriotic" mouths are. Won't it be interesting if the GOP votes the measure down? If we can take back the "Strong, safe, well-defended America" label, and keep all of our warm and fuzzy (read: Jesus-like, moral, caring, compassionate, supportive of children and the elderly) other qualities, we'll own Congress in 2006.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

98. Yup. Safeguard your kids well. Medical, CO, whatever.

I registered with the Selective Service in 1979 when Jimmy Carter started registration back up in response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan (which we now know from Zbignew Brezinski that Carter precipitated by funding the Mujahadeen 6 months before the Soviets invaded).

I registered with a 'bring it on' attitude. I intended to go conscientious objector but be vocal in the media, disrupt, and raise hell every way I could.

I had read in great detail about the draft during Vietnam and the tactics of the Stop the Draft movement. I intended to do the same rather than not register the way many of my buddies chose to respond to the call.

Maybe I was guilty of the Kerry and Clinton ambition to face the music to be able to sound my own horn. But it was an angry act of courage at the time to put myself in the crosshairs of the Pentagon war machine.

I wouldn't advise anyone to do that today.
Having fodder bodies available leads to policies to use them.

Instead of boots on the ground, the neo-cons will have to use their new Boeing X-45 remote satellite-controlled unmanned bombers.

[XanaDUer]

103. That is a great post...

And yes, when everyone has a dog in the fight, you can bet your sweet patotie that they will drag their asses away from NASCAR, E! Entertainment, and all the other bread-and-circuses crappola the majority of Americans immerse themselves in, and will sit up and pay attention to what is going on in our country and in the world at large.

[LynneSin]

69. Are you crazy? He's the most anti-war person in the House

The man is a genius!

He is probably pushing his bill because I'm sure there are other republicans out there writing up their own version of it. Rangel gets his to the floor first and believe me, this thing is written that EVERYONE serves including the Wealthy College kids who think they can use wealth & influence to get out of a draft.

This thing is so anti-republican that'll it get killed on the house floor. But it'll bring the discussion to the floor of just how badly this war is going and how short of manpower we are to fight this war. And hopefully it'll bring enough protest that it'll prevent any other draft bill from making the floor

Go Rangel!!!


He spoke at a memorial we had at Dover Air Force base - this guy hates the war, but he also knows that if a draft is ever put together by a repuke and put on the floor and passed - it'll be his (rangel) constituents (he has the Harlem NYC district) that'll be drafted and the rich white kids that'll get the free pass out of the army

[Yupster]

107. He may be surprised to find

he gets his wish.

I don't think it's a good idea to put things you don't like up to a vote to make a point. You might make the point too well and get what you don't want.

[teenagebambam]

5. Luckily...

My under-35 partner, a former Arab linguist for the Navy, is too gay to be drafted.

[Maat]

16. I'm glad for you.

But I can't help thinking at the same time - how stupid is the Navy to fail to utilize his skills - just because of his orientation? Our government is stupid, stupid, stupid!

[lojasmo]

33. That won't be an issue in the draft. Gays won't be exempt. N/T

[pstans]

55. Gay?

I think if being Gay exempted you from the draft then a lot more people would turn gay.

[rodeodance]

88. of course they will be!!!!

[lojasmo]

92. Gay people will be drafted, bank on it. N/T

[nickinSTL]

45. don't be too sure

I expect that, as in the past, gays will be drafted and then dishonorably discharged when the military is through with them.

[satya]

8. Better his bill than the GOP version.

IIRC, the purpose of his original bill was to make sure that the draft would apply equally to all socioeconomic classes (no college deferments, includes women, etc). Why deprive Jenna & Barbara (and all of *'s nieces & nephews) of the opportunity to participate?

[bowens43]

11. There is no GOP version.

The only people in congress proposing a draft are house Democrats and if Rangel thinks for one moment that the children of the rich in the powerful will ever be put in harms way then he's a bigger idiot then I thought.

[satya]

21. No GOP version yet... n/t

[Larkspur]

22. Wrong, the Repukes drafted a Draft proposal on Dec 20, 2001

but they've kept it "under the rug" for now.

from MoveOn.org bulletin
http://www.moveon.org/moveonbulletin/bulletin6.html
"After September 11th, the only thing likely to happen is that which was previously inconceivable. Could war in Iraq bring terrorism back to our country? Could it lead to a regional conflagration in the Middle East? Could it lead to another draft?" According to the author of this article, the answer is very possibly yes to all of these questions. In fact, on Dec. 20 of 2001, a bill was introduced to the House which calls for the drafting of all able-bodied men between the ages of 18 and 22 for military service.
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/article.php?sid=8136

HR 3598 The Universal Training and Service Act has been introduced but is not currently moving through Congress. It is unlikely that it will be passed in its current form. However, the fact that it has been introduced leaves room for a less extreme version to possibly be passed, meaning that the end result of the bill could still be conscription. This page includes information on the key points of the bill and who to write in order to oppose it.
http://www.afsc.org/youthmil/200202/notdraft.htm

[satya]

35. Thanks--hadn't heard about that one. n/t

[sunnystarr]

36. You're so right about that ....

Since when can't the rich and powerful keep their children out of harm's way? I think it's a really bad idea for Dems to introduce a bill for the draft. What are they thinking???

[Contrary1]

66. The rich and powerful will always be able to buy their kids' favor, but...

how many of the Bush War supporters do you know that
fall into that category? Most don't.

[LynneSin]

70. That's exactly what Rangel is hoping for

Worst case scenario is his bill is passed and that means everyone who is draftable regardless of sex or socioeconomic levels will have to serve. No more cush jobs like Bush landed to get out of serving in a war. Remember who Rangel represents - Harlem in NYC. This district is filled with the types of people that Bush & the GOP would prefer fighting their war - poor african-american/hispanic folks.

Because of that writing, you know damn well that this draft will not pass. But it'll bring the discussion to the floor and Rangel will make it a point to let the world know just who is fighting this war. His bill should bring enough anti-draft sentiment that it'll kill all future bills after it.

And Rangel is a safe person to submit this bill. He is so well beloved in his district that his seat is extremely safe. This is more of a protest bill to point out the fact that poor folks are fighting the war for the rich.

I adore Rangel!

[MADem]

79. Plus, he is a vet, he SERVED

He was a SSGT in the Army, served in Korea, was awarded the Bronze Star. He's been there and done that. He totally knows what he is doing, and he should be praised for it. He's out-triangulating the GOP...the ole money where the mouth is throw-down!

[Fovea]

9. Charlie Rangel is a genius

Not only is it going to happen under Bush, if we let the Pukes pass it, no one named Muffy or Brett will be drafted.

[FrenchieCat]

12. Or Chad and Heather......

....

But watch the Repugs voted it down....

Rangel is no "old fool", like some want to think....he's one of the harshest Repug critic there is and is a founding member of the Black Congressional Caucus.

Rangel is setting them up for the 2006 election, just like Dems got set up with the IWR!....but Repugs will not give in and they will not vote for it.

GOOD!

[forgethell]

41. Rather than try to

trap the Republicans, why doesn't Charlie try to come up with some ideas that every American can support. That is to say, we got whipped because we were for nothing. All we had was ABB, and most Americans didn't feel that way.

[Nederland]

18. Once again proving

..that the only people that want a draft are far left Democrats.

Rangel is an idiot.

[DrWeird]

23. You can't support the war and not support the draft.

And only republicans support the war.

[Nederland]

30. Not true

Every person in the military opposes the draft. Everyone. The reason is simple: a volunteer army performs better than a conscripted one. Its time for you to realize two things:

1) Winning modern wars requires having the best army, not the largest army.

2) Iraq would be fucked up no matter how many troups we had there.

[neverforget]

56. The best Army in the world is currently understrength and overstretched.

The US doesn't need the LARGEST army in the world just a bigger one. Bush has 3 options for Iraq:
1) Continue what we are doing now with the same level of force in Iraq. This is a losing situation as there aren't enough troops to secure the country. Think of having cops on every corner.
2) Increase the troop level to something that Scowcroft said is needed in Iraq: 500,000. This would give the US enough troops to for offensive operations and put "cops on every corner". This option would require a draft and a war tax. Highly unpopular with Americans AND Iraqis.
3) Cut our loses and leave and fuck the consequences whatever they may be for the Iraqis future: Fundamentalist Islamic Gov't, a country in chaos, etc.

I don't know what the answer is but I know one thing: more people are going to die because Bush has a hard-on for war and is a pathological liar. The answer was not to start the war.

[Nederland]

57. Response

I guess we just disagree. I believe to add 400k drafted troops wouldn't help a thing. To think that forcing 400k people that don't want to be in the military to go over to Iraq and expect the result to be an effective army/police force is naive. That is the lesson of Vietnam: when you force people that don't believe in a cause to fight people that do believe in cause, you lose.

[neverforget]

59. I'm not advocating a draft. All I'm saying is those are the options as

I see them.

[Nederland]

67. What about leaving?

Isn't that an option? Personally I believe that is what Bush will do. There is absolutely no way that Congress will pass a draft. Just look at the numbers on the last vote--its simple not going to happen. Given that reality, Bush may have no choice but to "declare victory" and leave. Ten to one that's what happens before his 2nd term is up.

[neverforget]

76. Option 3: leave and fuck the consequences.

[forgethell]

43. Says who?

Sure you can. I know lot's of people who do, and I'll bet that you do too.

[The Sad Little Pony]

96. But Rangel...

...doesn't "support the war".
AND he supports a draft.

This is lose lose

[KittyWampus]

51. It Isn't Rangel Who Is The Idiot. At Least Your Posts Are Consistent

[Nederland]

53. An intelligent, well argued response

not.

[0007]

20. Charlie Rangel is a very smart man that shows support on

every issue that is good for America. Then there are those who call themselves supporters, but don't support not even the daily board.

[Fleshdancer]

24. The only people that should be drafted....

are the kids of the WH admin and Congress. Maybe then we wouldn't have to endure another pointless war.

[forgethell]

44. Why?

How are the kids responsible for what their parents do? Is this fair? Is this just? Is this progressive?

[Fleshdancer]

50. this is my why of saying there should be no draft because

drafting the Bush twins and all the other children of the overly pompous, war hungry politicians is obviousy NEVER going to happen.

Sorry if the point wasn't as clear as I thought it was.

[forgethell]

60. Well,

I certainly agree there should be no draft. Charlie Rangel is an ass.

[LynneSin]

72. And if some bizarre reason Rangel's bill gets passed

those folks will be drafted just as equally as the poor folks

Rangel isn't trying to restart the draft. Rangel is trying to protect the people who he serves and all the other poor folks out there forced to fight this war. I hate watching the House of Rep on TV, but this is one fight I'll make a point to tune in and watch.

[Zensea]

25. Good Good Good

People calling Rangel an idiot just don't get it.

Before I get flamed too, I'd like to make it clear that I was a conscientious objector at the end of the Vietnam War and had a draft card. Why should this generation be any more exempt from having to deal with this stuff than previous generations?

It might be that it takes a draft to get people more engaged in the process of stopping this madness. Nothing else seems to have worked.
Get them where it hurts.

[Stepup2]

29. Seems to me

the draft is needed in order to "help" the military reflect the true demographics of this country.

The "voluntary" service we have now is comprised of predominately poor and minorities.

I wish this war had never been started, and have been very vocal against it, but perhaps the draft is one way to elevate the seriousness of the mess we are in beyond the communities whose votes don't get counted.

More middle class skin in this game may prompt bigger questions about why we are there and who does the fighting and dying for this country.

[Karmadillo]

31. We shouldn't rely on the Poverty Draft. If the US is going to fight

a forever war to maintain its empire and control the domestic population, everyone should share the burden. And, by the way, there's no better way to get a real antiwar movement going than to start drafting people with money and education. The Texas Air National Guard simply isn't big enough to hide all of them.

http://makhno.nefac.net/node/313

The Poverty Draft: Recruiting The Working Class To The Frontlines
Submitted by NEFAC on Fri, 03/28/2003 - 23:43.

Recruiters are relentlessly using marketing strategies to woo low income youths with little prospects for education and good jobs into the armed forces. Painting the Army as a kind of job training and vocational school, and simultaneously as a financial aid institution, recruiters get youths in high school to sign up to the DEP (Deferred Enlistment Program). When young people try and back out of enlisting, recruiters often lie and tell them it is impossible or illegal to drop out.

In fact, the military isn't a generous financial aid institution, and it isn't concerned with helping pay for school. Two-thirds of all recruits never get any college funding from the military. Only 15% graduated with a four year degree. 65% of recruits who pay the required $1200 into the Montgomery GI Bill never get a dime in return.

In terms of job opportunities, to join the army is actually more detrimental to job prospects. Veterans actually earn less than non-veterans: the average post-Vietnam War-era veteran will earn between 11% and 19% less than non-veterans from comparable class backgrounds. Over 50,000 unemployed veterans are on the waiting list for the military's "retraining" program. The Veterans Administration estimates that 1/3 of homeless people are vets.

The evidence on rates of return to training and the probability of finding a job in one's chosen occupation, strongly suggests that, all else being equal, young people should look to sources of training other than the military if they wish to optimize their careers.

YOUTH OF COLOR

The military uses economic discrimination (i.e. economic conscription or an economic draft), that forces lower income people into the military in order to earn a living, try to learn a trade or get money for their education. Not surprisingly, the "poverty draft" primarily targets youth of color from low-income areas, both urban and rural. Military recruiters prey upon the working classes in Black, Latino, Native American, Asian, Arab, and Pacific Islander communities. Quite simply, the armed forces target people of color for recruitment disproportionately, and thus die in war disproportionately. During Operation Desert Storm over 50% of the front-line troops were people of color, largely Latino.

Desperate to meet recruiting goals, the military has undertaken another mass expansion of its Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps (JROTC) program. These programs traditionally target communities of color, especially areas of Latino concentration. The prior JROTC expansion took place in 1992 in the aftermath of the Gulf War and the L.A. uprising. Writes Shelly Reese, for American Demographics Magazine, "The riots underscored the lack of opportunities for teenagers in economically disadvantaged areas. That led General Colin Powell to lobby for expanded JROTC."

more...

[gjb]

112. I agree see # 111

[Freddie Stubbs]

32. This ploy worked so well last time...

...that he is going to be using it again.

[HootieMcBoob]

46. Rangel is right to do this

The Republicans brought it to a vote the last time without any debate. Rangel ended up having to vote against it because his main reason for the bill is to have a debate on the situation in Iraq and the mess that Bush/Rumsfeld and the neo-con numbskulls have made of the Army.

The Rangel bill has no exemptions. No one would be able to get out of serving. I think there would be a way to serve without serving in the military but it would require some sort of service from everyone.

The Republicans would never allow it. You know damn well the Republicans politicians are not going to let their own children and the children of their big contributors be exposed to a draft. If it comes to a vote they'll vote it down, due to the fact that it treats all Americans equally regardless of income.

But they'll still have to deal with the fact that the Army is being decimated due to the way it's being used by these idiots. More and more people are deserting to Canada and they are falling far short in new recruit numbers. They can only keep this stop loss thing going on for so long. Morale is going down the drain as soldiers are asked to do way more tours of duty now then they ever were during Vietnam.

So, how are they going to address the problem? They will have to introduce some kind of conscription and it's not going to be anywhere near as equitable as the Rangel bill.

That's when the Democrats and the rest of the country will begin to raise holy hell.

I was in the Army Reserves myself. Luckily most of my time was spent during the Clinton Presidency. Believe me, there are no rich people in the enlisted corp. It's almost all poor and lower middle class kids. It is not right that we should be putting our lives on the line for the elite bastards of this country who would leave the country in a minute if they thought their asses might be on the line. I joined for money for college because I came from a poor family and needed all the help I could get to pay tuition. The children of the wealthy should have to pitch in as well. I feel very strongly about this.

Good job Rangel.

[John_H]

47. Welp, I guess folks 18-21 might have to turn out better than 10% next time

Poplation blocks that don't vote or donate en mass don't get to influence public policy. It's that simple.

If I were of draft age next election day I'd be out getting by non-voting friends away from the playstation 2 and into the voting booth.

[radar]

54. The good thing about a draft...

...Is that draftees don't suffer fools in leadership roles. They have an alternative outside a military career. "Finish the job and go home to their civilian lives...."

Anyone claiming draftees are a mistake for an army are only protecting their own collective ass - because drafted soldiers aren't afraid to yell when civilians get shot at checkpoints, or wedding parties get blown up in the desert, or prisoners get "abused."

The United States has had conscription in some form from it's inception up into the '70's. Couldn't have won WWII without 'em.

*Israel still has a draft today - including women
Countries with mandatory military service
A number of countries have mandatory military service
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/conscription

...Rumsfeld, in fact, has already kicked off the anti-draft campaign by denigrating the draftees who fought in Vietnam. The SecDef, who prefers sycophants who don't ask questions, recently stated that Vietnam-era draftees added "No value, no advantage, really, to the United States armed services ... because ... it took an enormous amount of effort in terms of training, and then they were gone."
Wrong once again. I led draftees for almost four years in Vietnam and for several years during the Korean War. If well-led, there are no finer soldiers. Ask the Nazis, the Japanese and the Reds in Korea and in Vietnam, where "no value" draftees cleaned their clocks in fight after fight.
David Hackworth: Uncle Sam Will Soon Want Your Kids
http://www.military.com/Opinions/0,,Hackworth_100404,00.html

[NuttyFluffers]

61. good, it is time to share the pain of sacrifice.

if our previous sacrifice recommendation was just "go shop more" from bush and we are in this situation, then perhaps a little negative reinforcement will kick some apathetic asses into gear.

in war, suffering spreads everywhere, it is time to take down the comforting barriers and remind everyone that war *does* affect all.

[wiggs]

64. Randi talking about filling draft board positions!

Interesting...Randi and some callers were talking about having already volunteered to sit on draft boards. Is this already happening?

[coffeenap]

101. Yes--I know some who already have

but what if we really have to do it? Do we really think we can excuse everyone who comes into our line at the draft board? And what about the repug sitting next to us who approves them all?

I will never allow my son or daughter to serve. We already have plans for them to be very gay. and on drugs. and whatever the hell else it takes.

[KansDem]

65. Let's be reasonable here...There will be NO draft...

Bush started the war based on lies and deceit, and the GOP trashed the reputations of good men like John McCain, Max Clelland, and John Kerry; all war vets and all heroes.

So...who in the Hell, in his/her right mind, is going to allow himself/herself to be drafted, or permit his/her child or grandchild to be drafted to fight in an immoral, illegal war based on lies and deceit, only to return to have that military service trashed by the Republicans?

You'd have to be insane to go along with this...

[Nederland]

68. Agreed

There will never be a draft. The empire will die first.

[ClassWarrior]

71. True or not, good or not...

...I won't believe it till I have independent confirmation.

NGU.

[bluestateguy]

73. I'll never support him again

You don't play politics with young people's lives. That's what Bush is doing in Iraq, and Rangel is doing the same thing with his bullshit bill.

His intentions, while misguidedly noble, would only result in thousands of fresh, warm young bodies being brought into the Bush war machine. Is he really so crazy as to think that he can write a bill that would prevent the children of privilege from being in harm's way? Then he is really naive. No, instead it will result in thousands of poor, black and Hispanic young people being sent off to whatever country to fight in the next neo-con imperial adventure. That'll be some record for a veteran of the civil rights era like Rangel all right. For those who are not rich and well-connected, I imagine a few draftees will resist, a few will flee the country, but I suspect that most will just go for no other reason than that the government says they have to go. We overestimate the rebelliousness of today's youth. Most young people are well-conditioned to respect authority. Throw in a a few waving flags and hysterical rants about "patriotism" and that should be enough to prevent a large scale draft resistance.

Rangel says he is trying to force a debate on military service, sacrifice and inequality. But the fact is, that his bill, if implemented would result in the conscription of thousands of people who will only serve because the government orders them to do so. They won't kno much about Middle Eastern politics, but they will be the ones thrown on to the front lines all in the name of "forcing a debate".

[fnottr]

75. I can kinda respect what he's trying to do here, but

I don't want to go into the military....period. I'm 20 and male, so I know I'm ripe draft age. I'll be done with college in may '06, but from what I hear, college deferments aren't what they once were. I guess I am a part of the white, upper middle class that he's talking about, but I know for damn sure that I or my parents don't have any 'connections' we can use to keep me out of the army. My dad is a non-political state government worker, and my mom runs a local branch of a graduate school, they do well for themselves (their salaries are about $50k each) but I don't have a damn clue what they could do to keep me out of the military. Let me be clear, I don't believe there's any reason I shouldn't have to serve when others are conscripted, I am vehemently against conscripted service for anyone.

I don't know enough about DC politicking to know what effects this bill will have in the end. Obviously Rangel doesn't *actually* want a draft, but I hope you can understand how nervous it makes me that a draft bill is actually being introduced.

[LynneSin]

80. WAIT - we already are playing politics with young peoples lives

You do know the republicans will never allow a draft to be passed that provides no escape for their wealthy mainly white supporters.

I'd go through hell and back again for Chuck Rangel, one of the biggest anti-war activists in the house. Obviously you've read the initial post and then added your reply. Try reading all the replies include those (some are mine) that explain just exactly what Rangel hopes to accomplish by this draft. Several people have posted about the Poverty draft and you should pay close attention to those.

Think about who Chuck Rangel represents - a district that is overwhelmingly minority and most of those are living in the poverty level. Without a draft, these are the people that recruiters are targeting - young kids out of school (if they're lucky) who really have no choice but to use the military as a means of liveihood. I mean, you did watch Fahrenheit 9/11 where those 2 recruiters actively went into the lower income districts in order to find more bodies to fill the military and yet Moore couldn't find recruiters at the malls in the wealthier neighborhoods.

Believe me, when Bush needs bodies they'll get him a draft but one where wealthy & influential kids will find easy escapes out of it. You want Rangel's bill on the floor believe me you do!

[American Tragedy]

77. Wake the fuck up, guys.

My grandmother was all for the invasion of Vietnam, until the day my dad drew 031 in the 1969 draft lottery. I'm sure that across the entire nation, families experienced the same surge in their political conscience when the war in Vietnam finally hit their homes. And despite our apparent apathy now, it would happen again today under similar circumstances.

I've been writing to members of the Senate and Congress for years advocating reinstatement of the draft, because I realized it was the only way to wake up the American people and stop this endless pattern of war, the endless exploitation of the 'volunteer' army. If there had been an equitable draft army before the Iraq invasion, it would have never happened.

This is going to be largely symbolic, I suspect; more or less bluffing in order to engage Congress and the public in a serious debate about those who are directly affected versus those to whom this entire war is basically a TV miniseries.

The Republicans are probably not insane enough to sign legislation that would be tantamount to political suicide. But if indeed conscription were reinstated... Let's just say that this entire policy would necessarily grind to a halt.

Perhaps this administration is too naive to realize that. I don't know.

My prediction, nevertheless, still stands: there will be no draft.

[The Sad Little Pony]

86. Forced conscription...

...is no substitute reason.

Forcing a generation into the military is no way to win this debate.
A better, more convincing argument will do it.
NOT a draft.

[rfkrfk]

82. Draft Bill, litttle chance of becoming law

Last time, the bill went down , 10 yes,, 400 no.
Rangel would have to flip 280 votes.
Unlikely.

[Vinca]

83. I think a draft is inevitable if Dubya continues his mission from God,

but I'd prefer to have the Republicans introduce it. There will come a point where there is no alternative and THEY should be the ones to swallow their rhetoric and propose it. Once there's a Republican bill, Democrats can work to make sure Jen and Barbara are draftable. I'm afraid the first bit of anti-Democratic propaganda next election will be "they wanted to draft your kids."

[JerseygirlCT]

84. The draft is immoral. Sure hope this goes down in flames -m

b/c I certainly don't want my son fighting Bush's stupid wars.

[Malva Zebrina]

85. I think this is brilliant

Let them introduce Rangel's bill. Let us watch all the Republicans get up and speak about NOT passing this bill. They cannot accept the terms as listed by Rangel-no deferrments for any reason whatsoever. Let them try to come up with an alternative,which they cannot, after all, Bush said during the debates that there will be no draft, and they all must protect that.

Let them go on record as opposing a draft. That will close the door on a draft (pun intended) as Bush ever the more hints at invading Iran.

Rangel will take some wicked flack, but he seems willing to do so.

[American Tragedy]

87. Exactly.

It's a worthy gamble.

[The Sad Little Pony]

97. Unless...

...it passes, and you get sent to Iraq and die.

Then it will seem like a real bad idea.



Forced Conscription is never a good "political maneuver".
Not when you're trying to accuse your opponent of being too cavalier with the lives of our kids.

[American Tragedy]

100. Well, I'm betting that it won't actually happen

or if it does, it will destroy their base of support, and I feel very secure that it would work in our favor.

I recognize that George W. Bush is a lame duck president. He no longer has to pander to moderates in order to be reelected, which does indeed leave his agenda dangerously unencumbered. That is why we fought so hard to get the bastard out of office. But the Senators and Congressmen, both Republicans and Democrats, who are responsible for the legislation that we're discussing are still accountable to their respective constituencies. At this point in history, is it politically feasible for them to approve a bill that will send sons and daughters of their state into a miserable hellscape, some never to return? I don't believe it.

In any case, I really hope that this indeed proves to merely be a bluff, and that they don't ever go through with it. If there is a co-ed military draft in the next couple of years, I am acutely aware that I would be eligible.

[rodeodance]

89. his last bill had the option of community service for 2 years (something

along these lines). It will de ja ve all over again. Just sub. community service for the nat. gurard--with lots of preferencial treatment going on.

[Coastie for Truth]

90. I was a Louis Hershey - Lyndon Baines Johnson Fellow

I was a Louis Hershey - Lyndon Baines Johnson Traveling Fellow in the Non-Peaceful Resolution of International Disputes. I studied Naval Architecture-Marine Mechanical Engineering, Antenna Design and Radio Operation, Mathematics of Conventional Ballistics, South East Asian Studies, and Small Group Leadership, Applied First Aid/What to Do Until The Corpsman Comes, and How To Tell A Mother Her Son Is Dead (Have you ever read an academic curriculum vita ? ;) ?)

Seriously, I had never met a Republican or a Southerner before I started on my Fellowship. Outside of the public school bureaucracy - I had never seen an African-American in a senior management position.

The real thing - even before the Tet Offensive most of us knew the Viet Nam was the wrong war for the wrong reasons, a tragic waste of our generation, and a form of genocide. Even before the Tet Offensive, our parents, extended families, neighbors, and friends knew what to expect from the VVAW (Kerry) Testimony ---- Kerry told the truth, O'Neill lied through his teeth.

What created the anti-war movement was when home town kids came home and told the truth about the War.

What really created the anti-war movement was when middle-class and upper middle class, suburban, white kids started getting drafted (the end of the marriage deferment in 1964, the end of student deferments in 1968).

As we should have learned on 11/2/04 - all of the Dean and Kucinich speeches in the world won't end the war.

What will end it is when middle-class and upper middle class, suburban, white kids start getting drafted, and when middle-class and upper middle class, suburban, white kids start shipping out to Iraq or Iran or Korea, and when middle-class and upper middle class, suburban, white kids start e-mailing back to their families and friends

THAT THINGS LIKE ABU GHRAIB ARE NOT THE ABERRATIONAL EXCEPTION -- THEY ARE THE EVERY DAY RULE

.

[Gloria]

94. Rangel is smart...I'm wondering, does he have a Repug co-sponsor yet??

If not, would it be because Repugs don't want to have a draft and keep SAYING they don't want a draft, because they know that a draft would be the BEGINNING OF THE END of Bushco??? Seriously, the draft during the Viet Nam era was what got the colleges really revved up. Without a draft, Bushco steals people quietly from the Guard and Indiv. Reserves.

With a draft, all hell breaks loose. Students, parents....it's Viet Nam all over again, and notice how Ted Kennedy has gotten a lot of press over his "Iraq is Bush's Viet Nam" comment....

And...if Rangel re-introduces the bill and gets some press...if Dems play it right, saying that Bush has weakened the Army, is pulling retired Viet Nam vets back into Iraq, etc. etc. --even if Rangel just gets the talk going again and gets people riled up......

See where I'm going on this?? Could this be a way to turn people against Bush BIG TIME and wake up this damned country?????

[The Flaming Red Head]

115. If you had kids in that draft age range.

You wouldn't think he was smart. You'd think he was an asshole!

[Kimber Scott]

95. It could be the fastest way to end the war. The draft might make

people pay attention. Especially these gung-ho Young Republicans who are so for the war, but so against going to fight it themselves. It would mean instant upheaval within our society. If these soccer moms, Nascar dads and morally superior evangelicals had to start sending their own children to fight... Well, enough said. Too bad, it would be the fault of a Democrat, though.

Poor people shouldn't be the only ones to fight rich mens' wars. Bring it on and bring 'em home.

[gjb]

111. Yeah and this time no academic deferments. Clean out the Young Repug...

Clubs and Skull and Bones Frat sewers on Campus. Send in the young rich first.

[The Flaming Red Head]

116. Bush didn't go and neither will the rich young repugs of this era

It'll be the poor kids again. This is bullshit.

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

102. Aw jeez, not this s**t again

1) Everybody that thinks Charles Rangel is is in favour of the Draft, go stand in the corner.
2) My apologies to the person from whom I leeched this image.

[MADem]

110. Thank you so much!!

Swell pic....and that NEEDED to be said!

[dbeach]

104. Draft improves the militray

despite what rummy says..1/3 VN deaths were draftees..
It would get the attention of a yawning middle class who mostly is content to allow bushfraud to do his will on the world..
I been drafted..got kids...
Military forces maturity in a war zone or in support of a war zone.

I am against ALL of these bush wars and really think China and Russia remain the 2 great threats next to bush of course..

[Benson]

108. So now the DRAFT will be blamed on DEMOCRATS?!!!

Let the GOP introduce this! Not Rangel!
The -conservative-MSM will make this a DNC policy now!

[ArcRabbit]

109. No matter who introduces it

the shit will still hit the fan with the public. There is only so much people will stand for.

[No Exit]

113. I guess he has to kill those young people in order to save them. n/t