How is Howard Dean liberal?

[TheFarseer]

He's not very far to the left on most issues as far as I can see. The only thing that makes him left wing is his anti Iraq war stance. This is a serious question: What has he done to justify the "liberal" label RWers have put on him?

editted to say anti IRAQ war stance

[w13rd0]

1. Opposed Bush...

...that's all it takes nowadays.

[Guaranteed]

2. Yup. That's basically it.

If you're not a fascist, you're a liberal.

[Cha]

7. With 'em or again 'em...

that would make us Liberals.

[genius]

50. He never said he was liberal. He uses the word "conservative"

to describe much of his plan.

[NYCGirl]

69. Please explain to me how this is "conservative"

http://democrats.org/index2.html

Chairman Howard Dean's DNC Plan

1. Show up! Democrats should never concede a single state, a single district, or a single voter to the Republicans. We must be active and compete in all 50 states and work with the state parties to build a true national party.

2. The success of the national party depends directly on the success of the state parties — we must better integrate our operations by:

Having the DNC pay the salary of each state party executive director to help ensure that the state parties have adequate funds.

Collectively building and sharing supporter lists between the national and state parties.

Recruiting, training, and encouraging candidates to run for office at every level — building tomorrow's farm team from the ground up.

Actively grow local Democratic committees and communities by working with neighborhood activists who can reach out in their communities and enable the grassroots to support state and local candidates.

Maintaining a permanent campaign in every state. We need to establish an ongoing, active presence, which does not have to be recreated every four years for four months.

3. Set core principles that define the Democratic Party and what we stand for and take a bottom-up approach to the development of the Party's message;

4. Use cutting-edge Internet and other technologies to fundraise, organize, and communicate with our supporters;

5. Strengthen our political institutions and leadership institutes to promote our leaders and our ideas — these organizations must work together in a coordinated and integrated fashion to elect Democrats at every level, so that we can take this country back.

[alcuno]

3. He opposed the Iraq War and screamed.

He's not anti-war, he was against the Iraq War.

[TheFarseer]

6. that's a fair point, I've editted my post

[Quixote1818]

4. He is not but when you attack the president in a time of war

you get that label attached to you. Dean took a risk and unfortunately the public was still too much behind the war when the primary's hit. Now the label is just stuck to him and he will have to work on showing the nation who he really is and he will be fine. Also, the war is no longer popular do Dean is coming in as Chair at the perfect time. His popularity is probably higher than Bush's at this time.

[NV Whino]

5. He's not "liberal."

He is, however more liberal than Kerry. And a LOT more liberal than Bush.

He is, I think, progressive. He knows how to reach the people (you and me). And I think he will listen to the people.

[madfloridian]

9. Dean's recent response to Woodruff on being called "liberal."

WOODRUFF: So you want to have a local focus.

You know the rap on Howard Dean is that, at a time when the party should be
centrist, if anything, a time when the party has been walloped by the
Republicans two times in a row, the last thing it needs is a visible liberal
like Howard Dean to be its chair.

DEAN: Well, first of all I don't thing anything the matter with the word
"liberal." We ought to get that straight right away.

Having said that I am a centrist. I'm in the center of where most of America
is. I balance budgets. We haven't seen a balanced budget from a Republican,
particularly in this administration, for a long time.

I speak my mind, and that is what I think Democrats have to do to win. I
don't think Democrats need to jump around in the political spectrum to win.
What we have to have is a clear message that stands for our values. Our
values are more in tune with the values of the American people in general
than the Republican values are. They focus on things like gay rights and
abortion. We need to focus on things that most Americans care about: helping
the least among us, strengthening education, health insurance, which is an
enormous problem for most middle class Americans. That's how you win
elections......"END SNIP

And as he has said before, he thought of rehabilitating the word liberal but wasn't sure it could be done. Basically, he does not mind that word liberal, but he is after reform.

[TheFarseer]

13. Can you dictate to people what they care about?

I'm sick to death that people value preventing people they will never meet from getting married over their jobs or their kid's education. But can you tell people what they care about? I've been trying to with my family and it just doesn't work. Sorry this post isn't very constructive, but I simply don't know the answer.

[madfloridian]

14. They have succeeded so well with their "wedge isssues"...

that it has divided families greatly. It has happened in my family. Intelligent well-educated people who are totally clueless about what is going on in our country. Clueless.

If our party had been speaking out like they should, it would not have been this bad. It would not have gotten this bad. There was no counter-voice to their propaganda really.

[Placebo]

8. He's a Democrat.

Democrat = Extremist Pansy Poet Liberal.

End of story these days.

le sigh...

[Bouncy Ball]

36. Placebo, what the hell???

Is that a DEAN thing in your siggie????

Le confused!

[dansolo]

10. Even his Iraq war stance isn't left-wing

The biggest fallacy is that being against the war makes a person liberal or left-wing. Dean basically said that *IF* Bush was able to make a convincing case that Iraq posed a real threat, then he would have supported action against Saddam. But, he also knew that Bush was full of shit.

[DrGonzoLives]

11. Because the right-wing pundits say he is

Ergo, he is.

[TreasonousBastard]

12. He's not, and...

Vermonters I know seem to think he governed pretty much as a reasonably decent centrist, leaning progressive.

The "liberal" thing is simply propaganda from some of his less informed supporters and has little to do with either his positions or past record.

For the record, Kerry had the highest ADA rating in the Senate-- higher even then Kucinich's House rating. Calling Dean more liberal than Kerry is simply wrong.

Having said that, I'm hoping that his other attributes come in handy as DNC chair.

The job is not to be "liberal" or anything else-- it is to raise money, support candidates, and to be viciously partisan in attacks on the opposition. That, I think he can do very well. Dean, Reid, and Pelosi just might make amn exciting trio.

[marcologico]

41. "Calling Dean more liberal than Kerry is simply wrong."

You are so right.

[genius]

51. That's true.

Kerry's record is much more liberal than that of Dean. Hopefully, Dean will not push through his ideas, though that's unlikely since the chairman picks all the members of the platform and resolutions committees.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

61. That's false.

One of these is Kerry and one is Dean:





http://www.issues2000.org/default.htm Fairly well documented.

[genius]

65. I've seen a more accurate chart that showed all issues from labor to

environment and death penalty. Kerry comes out more liberal every time. Dean supported Yucca (though hopefully he's changed his posiitons), supports the death penalty (a Republican position), is pro-NRA (same side as Chuck Heston) and had a very bad environmental and labor history while Kerry was excellent on both labor and the environment. The good news is that Dean's positions change with the wind and he doesn't like the DLC any more. So hopefully he will lead the party in the opposite direction as the Republican Party. He did say he would have opposed Rice. That's a plus.

Also, by the latest ratings chart I've seen, Kerry is holding true to his liberal reputation this year.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

67. Your point?

Kerry supported Iraq war, TelCom Act and NAFTA. If you're going to cherry pick (not to mention misrepresent) then it's easy to arrive at a false conclusion. What position is more neo-con: Yucca or Iraq? My point is that they're both left of center and both have pros and cons. I'll even concede that, historically, Kerry has better Liberal credentials. But when the rubber met the road on the important issues of our time (war, media and trade) Kerry was on the wrong side of the issue. When you add all the pluses and minuses together (and some pluses and minuses are bigger than others) they both generally reside at the same point on the political spectrum.

[marcologico]

68. Saying "Kerry supported Iraq war" totally mischaracterizes his position.

Kerry did not "vote" for the war and he does not support it. He has repeatedly called Iraq a mistake and urged withdrawal of U.S. forces as soon as possible.

Dean on the other hand had this to say on December 15, 2003:

"The capture of Saddam Hussein is good news for the Iraqi people and the world. Saddam was a brutal dictator who should be brought swiftly to justice for his crimes. His capture is a testament to the skill and courage of U.S. forces and intelligence personnel. They have risked their lives. Some of their comrades have given their lives. All Americans should be grateful."

Source: http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002698.html

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

70. Lol.

I'll refine the distinction: He gave Shrub unmitigated power to proceed with the Irag "problem" as he saw fit.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Dean goes on:

"All Americans should be grateful. I thank these outstanding men and women for their service and sacrifice.

I want to talk about Iraq in the context of all our security challenges ahead. Saddam?s capture offers the Iraqi people, the United States, and the international community an opportunity to move ahead. But it is only an opportunity, not a guarantee.

Let me be clear: My position on the war has not changed.

The difficulties and tragedies we have faced in Iraq show that the administration launched the war in the wrong way, at the wrong time, with inadequate planning, insufficient help, and at unbelievable cost. An administration prepared to work with others in true partnership might have been able, if it found no alternative to Saddam?s ouster, to then rebuild Iraq with far less cost and risk.

As our military commanders said, and the President acknowledged yesterday, the capture of Saddam does not end the difficulties from the aftermath of the administration?s war to oust him. There is the continuing challenge of securing Iraq, protecting the safety of our personnel, and helping that country get on the path to stability. There is the need to repair our alliances and regain global support for American goals.

Nor, as the president also seemed to acknowledge yesterday, does Saddam?s capture move us toward defeating enemies who pose an even greater danger: al Qaeda and its terrorist allies. And, nor, it seems, does Saturday?s capture address the urgent need to halt the spread of weapons of mass destruction and the risk that terrorists will acquire them."






Edited for obvious emphasis

[marcologico]

75. LOL back atcha.

Flip-flop on the same day, in the same speech.

Anyway as I've pointed out before Dean's and Kerry's policy positions on Iraq were indistinguishable, right down to the perfectly reasonable "flip-flops."

The difference was in the rhetoric and Kerry's took him a lot further.

[genius]

66. Sorry that's not a match. The graph done in 2000 that I saw was a

square. Dean was in the conservative/totalitarian section (upper right). Dennis was in the Libertarian left (lower left)section near Ghandi. Kerry was in the middle. It looks like whoevever put this chart together took that chart and distorted it. The main ones to look at are the lists that cover their actual positions. Issue comparison charts cannot hide where the candidates stand on the issues.

[chieftain]

15. Having vilified the word " liberal " , that's what they will call

each and every Democrat . Among the many things I like about Dean is that he defends Liberalism . I cringe when I see our people run away from the label . When we refuse to wear liberalism as a badge of honor we do a disservice to our philosophy and heroes such as FDR , JFK and RFK . Not only that we don't fool anyone .
I watched Kerry try to duck the characterization and believe me it did not inspire the belief among the politically uninterested that he was a stand-up guy .

[Eloriel]

16. I think he defies -- and transcends labels

which I've written about elsewhere and won't again tonight, BUT, having said that, he's also socially fairly liberal, at least by today's standards. And here's a few reasons why I say that:

* AFTER HE BALANCED the budget in Vermont, he provided healthcare for almost all children and a good many of Vermont's adults.

* He implemented a plan -- a miraculous program that cost just $100 a year per child -- which has cut child abuse by 43% and child sexual abuse by 70%. (I'm telling you, that's miraculous.) It's simplicity itself: new mothers are visited in the hospital and offered a home visit and then, if needed, offered services for whatever is needed for successful parenting and successful families. I'm sure Repugs would call this rank socialism, but I think it's wonderful and comes very close to what I would like our world to be like when I close my eyes and imagine utopia.

* He put hundreds of thousands of Vermont's wilderness acreage aside so it will never be developed.

* Signed and defended civil unions -- and went on to get re-elected a few months later.

[CatholicEdHead]

46. So,

to use the right wing spinmeisters' rethoric he is a "socalist anti-business environut anti-Christian liberal" (Anti-Christian because he is not completly against all forms of "gay marraige").

I like Dean and hope he does a really good job. It is sad that "Liberal" is used as a slanderous attack to end all conversations.

The "center" has gone way too far to the right.

[sandnsea]

17. "I'm from the Democratic Wing"

He did it to himself. Were you not around during the primaries?

jesus christ.

And what the fuck are his supporters doing running away from the word liberal anyway. Weren't you the ones who said all last year that we need to be like Howard Dean and be proud to be liberal.

:crazy:

[madfloridian]

22. The "Democratic Wing" is the wing that is not so Republican.

A little divisive right now? I am not going there with you, because you know perfectly well we don't run from anything.

Nor shall we. It was the DLC who labeled him a fringe activist and called made fun of us for being anti-war.

If you ever followed anything we said, you would know that Howard himself several times on TV said he had given up trying to rehabilitate the word.

No one is running from anything. Not any more. You may call me anything you like, BTW.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

26. Dean gave credit to Wellstone for it.....often and freely.

He never claimed it for his own. We knew what he meant when he said it. It meant that our party was acting too Republican.

Your quote:"How'd you get out?"

Refers to getting out of what? Just curious.

[sandnsea]

27. Doesn't matter

And I don't make a habit of crashing Dean threads, this one was just beyond the pale. So I'm outta here.

[madfloridian]

28. Hey, fine with me. Not my thread. Crash all you want. Just be fair.

:hi:But now I know what you meant. I do that a lot too, and it helps.

[TheFarseer]

43. How do you mean "beyond the pale"?

Personally, I love Dr. Dean. I still wish it would have been him against George W. I think he represents what I believe better than just about anyone and I don't consider myself a liberal.

[RetroLounge]

48. Good, don't let the door, you know...

B'Bye...

RL

[Capn Sunshine]

77. I wish that were true

but the next Dean thread you'll be back. After all what is life without discord and divisiveness?

I think they refer to it as "offline"

[greenohio]

56. That may be what he meant.

But you cannot be surprised if people understand that to mean I'm liberal which brings us back to the initial point of why he is painted as such. I've said all a long that he isn't a pure lefty and have been beaten upside the head about it.

[elshiva]

81. Democratic wing does not mean liberal, it means

that he is a proud Democrat who acts and votes like a Democrat. Democrat DOES NOT always equal liberal.

[helderheid]

18. I would have agreed with you in the primaries

I was an avid Kucinich supporter and worked on his campaign but I have to say, after the "Dean scream" I think Dean moved left.

[Eloriel]

21. No, no, not at all

He "moved left" all along his journey, as he LISTENED to his supporters on the issues, gained new information and perspective. The shifts were subtle, not dramatic, and subtle to note as well. You had to BE a supporter familiar with him and his positions to see the shifts at all.

[progressiveandproud]

29. Eloriel...

I think I like Howard Dean, but I have one concern about him. I've seen several well-informed Kucinich supporters, on this board and on one or two others, say that Dean is quite in the pocket of multi-national corporations and is anti-labor. And I'd like to how you'd respond to that, if you don't mind.

By the way, I know that as head of the DNC, Howard's organizational, party-building strengths are more important than whatever policies he may have. But I'm still wondering.

Thanks,

Jonathan

[madfloridian]

32. Here we go!

This is sad.

[progressiveandproud]

37. Hey...

...don't be putting down my question, if that's what you're doing. I just want to hear the take of someone who seems quite informed.

Perhaps you're also informed: how 'bout, rather than dissing the question, dishing out a little information?

[madfloridian]

38. Dean is very pro-labor. He says the middle class was formed from unions.

He is very clear on that and had the endorsements of labor unions.

To me it is so easily found out by typing dean + labor into google.

The attacks are coming in force, so it is right for me to be suspicious.

[progressiveandproud]

39. Yes and no...

...'course I can google-search, that's a good point. But I also like to have discussions in here. You can't interact with a search engine like you can with a person. ;)

[madfloridian]

40. I would rather you google. LOL

I know when I am being taunted.

[RetroLounge]

49. Yawn... Now it starts...

:eyes:

RL

[ScreamingMeemie]

60. I'm not Eloriel, but my husband is a blue collar, ex Libertarian Howard

Dean supporter. Why? Because, from the start, Dean has spoken about about the need to level the playing field that's been ripped apart by NAFTA. How can that be anti-labor. My husband's being killed by outsourcing right now. Making things competitive across the globe will stop the hemorrhaging.

[progressiveandproud]

73. Thanks for your input.

Sounds like I have some stuff to learn about Howard Dean.

By the way, MrsGrumpy, have you heard about the bill that was just introduced in the House to deal with America's trade deficit to China? I just heard Congressman Bernie Sanders (I-VT) talking about the bill while he was on Thom Hartmann's radio show this Friday, and I haven't looked into the details yet, but it really got my interest.

In case you're interested, Bernie has a webpage on the new bill: http://bernie.house.gov/documents/releases/20050209150240.asp.

Jonathan

P.S. Vermont seems like a great place, between Bernie Sanders and Howard Dean. And I also read recently that VT has 6 of the 9 third-party elected officials in the U.S! (Or was that 6 of the 9 third-party-members in the U.S. elected to state office? Oh well.)

[Gyre]

19. He is a direct and plain-speaking man.

Which would make him the polar opposite of chimp. But I'm not sure if polar opposite of chimp in the truth arena =s liberal necessarily. I actually think of him as being progressive (as in vastly more intelligent and compassionate) than the current occupant of the WH.

Gyre

[Dr Ron]

20. All Democrats are far left liberals

If John Kerry and John Edwards are the two most liberal Senators, then Howard Dean must also be far left.

It's not just on Iraq. He opposes a religious theocracy. He wants to provide health care to children. Clearly he's a dangerous radical.

[madfloridian]

23. Dean: " I am a centrist. I'm in the center of where most of America is"

This is so silly to do this tonight.

He is for moving forward, not left or right. We can not play the word games and label games of the right wing anymore.

[progressiveandproud]

30. Well...

...at least Howard can call himself a centrist without bashing progressives. That's an area Evan Bayh and Joe Lieberman flunk in.

[98geoduck]

24. Why do Republicans Hate American Values?

[ginnyinWI]

31. check this out

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles9/DVNS_Howard-Dean.htm

"The joke among a lot of Vermont Republicans was that they didn't need to run anyone for governor because they basically had one in office already," said Harlan Sylvester, a conservative Democratic stockbroker and longtime adviser to Dean.

(St. Petersburg Times, July 6, 2003)



* * * * * *



In Vermont, said John McClaughry, Dean was such a centrist that some in his own party considered him "a Republican in drag." McClaughry, a Republican who heads the Ethan Allen Institute, a public policy think tank in Kirby, Vt., said: "A lot of people in Vermont look at Howard Dean today and they don't see the Howard Dean who was governor. He has reshaped himself to appeal to a faction of the Democratic constituency." (Los Angeles Times, June 1, 2003)

[madfloridian]

33. Are we having fun going after the new chair yet?

Instead of trying to unify?

[ginnyinWI]

45. hey, come on, I love Howard Dean too

I just think he is more multi-faceted in his politics than a lot of people think. This is not a man that is easily pigeon-holed as "liberal" or "progressive" or "green" or whatever label. I was trying to show that aspect of him--he does have his conservative facets, and good for him, I say.

In the primaries, I was one of those who "dated Clark", then "dated Dean", then "married Kerry". Love them all.

[greenohio]

57. I agree.

That said, I'm against bashing Dems in general. I don't make a special case for one man.

[madfloridian]

34. We don't need the other party to go after us.

We eat our own. It begins.

[greenohio]

58. Yes. We need to stop eating our own. Dean included.

We need to work together. I hope this philosphy expands.

[Bouncy Ball]

35. He's really NOT overly liberal.

I'm incredibly liberal. But I never understood the uberliberal pinned on him OR on Kerry. Neither one of them seem very liberal from where I'm standing.

:shrug:

He IS a populist though, and that resonates with me BIG time.

[eridani]

63. True, on the centrist----->left spectrum he's centrist, but--

on the wussing out-------->fighting back spectrum, he pegs out on the far end of not taking any more crap from the likes of Rove. That's what is important in a DNC chair. His slogan "You have the power" is and was a blank slate. It's up to progressives to convince the grassroots to fill it up with the policies that Kucinich advocates.

[marcologico]

42. Kerry is a liberal. Dean is not. He's a "centrist," just like the DLC.

He says so himself, and his policies (not the phony speeches) prove it: pr-NAFTA, pro-business, pro-tax cut, not terribly concerned about the environment. Sound familiar? It should, because we've had 24 years of it, Carter being the last remotely "liberal" president.

[TheFarseer]

44. I think you're misrepresenting him somewhat

Alot of people were for NAFTA. I wasn't but alot of Democrats were. Most of them are now saying that it isn't working and should be revoked or at least re-done and Dean is one of them. I think if you're a state official, you have to be pro-business. If you make unfriendsly business policies, businesses will move to New Hampshire or whatever. I believe you have to reign in business on the Federal level because the states don't have the power to do anything meaningful. I've never heard him say he was for the tax cut. He wanted to get rid of it, remember? And as for the environment, I know it's only one facet, but I'm almost sure he was against drilling in the ANWAR.

[greenohio]

59. Thats convenient and all...

but the point is still valid. Dean has supported policies for big corporations. That said, we need to lay off Dean. We need to lay off the DLC Dems. If Dean is smart, and I believe he is, his first act will be to call the truce.

[progressiveandproud]

74. The idea of laying off the DLC Dems...

...sounds good to me, or at least it does when it's framed that way (as "laying off" criticizing them). :).

I worry, though, that a lot of the DLC Dems take jabs at the other Dems in ways that are counter-productive and reinforce Republican propaganda. For instance, it's one thing to claim that you represent the American center, as Howard Dean has said, and quite another to frame it in a negative way and make a big fuss about how you "stand with mainstream America and are against the party becoming too elitist and drifting away from real American values". I've heard too much of the latter way of claiming centrism. I've heard Evan Bayh do some of this, and also Bill Clinton to some extent.

I think it's a matter of reframing, not necessarily alienating them from the party! As Howard has demonstrated, there are ways of claiming the moral center without condemning one's partymembers.

Then again, I do relish the idea of a Democrat challenging Joe Lieberman in a primary!

Jonathan

[greenohio]

80. "I think it's a matter of reframing"

I agree. That cuts both ways. Calling DLCers "republican lites", and traitors is probably not the best way to "frame" disagreement with moderate Democrats either.

[independentchristian]

47. How is Howard Dean "liberal"?

When will people learn to look past labels like "liberal" and "conservative"?

There are no "liberal" and "conservative" parties in this country, so why is each party characterized by those terms when there are different folks with different strokes in each party?

What about just plain "human" and wanting what is best for most people and the country?

I despise the Republican party because their proposals and platform would destroy the country and hurt most people in this country, not because they claim to be "conservative" which is just a word that has a bunch of different definitions, some of which are not bad.

I think labels are narrow-minded, and they narrow the focus which is what the Republicans ultimately want in the first place, and focusing on labels is just another example of letting them dictate the conversation.

[One Taste]

52. His views on healthcare are fairly liberal.

[Zhade]

53. Are you kidding? What's more liberal than decentralizing power?

Hell, I'm not a Deaniac and even I can see that devolving power to the people is quite liberal.

[youngred]

54. He isn't

but he doesn't have to be. Ideology is the least important of the DNC cahir's jobs (which is why I am no fan of Dean, but did support him for chair).

The reason he will be effective in this job is he is not afraid to speak his mind, brings energy and a myth of being an outsider to the job and is a proven master at fundraising, something the Dems need to compete.

You are right though in saying he is no liberal, despite the spin placed on him.

[pacifictiger]

55. I think Dean describes

himself as a fiscal conservative, a social liberal.
The trouble with a 'one-size-fits-all' label, is that it automatically tries to fit someone into a nice little neat package that does not allow for innovation.
Dean is an honest to goodness one of a kind.

[IronLionZion]

62. That is something to throw in the face of RWers

they would paint Joementum as a left-wing liberal if they felt threatened by him.

Don't worry about the stupid "liberal" or "conservative" labels. The important thing is to stand up to the bad guys and that is exactly what Dean is doing.

[messiah]

64. I dont know

I think he's just a Bill Cosby democrat.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

71. He spoke truth to power.

A fine Liberal tradition.

[Donailin]

72. RW'ers label all opponents "too liberal" and besides

can he be more liberal than the number one most liberal opponent, John Kerry?

It's a bunch of BS. I'm sick to death of it. I have conservative friends who hate Bush, but decry the choice of Dean as a mistake for the DNC.

We have to constantly tell people that it is not the opposition who is "too liberal," it is the current administration that is so over the top to the right that even if Ronald Reagan Himself ran against Bush, they would call him liberal as well.

[inslee08]

76. Dean is liberal when it comes to

*most* major issues in the 04 race, mainly the war and the rollback of Bush's giveaways.

His more conservative stance on issues like gun control and the like get overlooked.

[lojasmo]

78. The term "liberal" has been co-opted by the right.

And by "democratic" reactionarys with an axe to grind. This need is often fulfilled by posting divisive threads on certain internet boards. :eyes:


Dean is a progressive moderate. His stances and actions may be called those of a "liberal" by some right-wing idiots.

His accomplishments for Vermont are well documented here and elsewhere.

[98geoduck]

79. Cokie Roberts doesn't like him. What a BITCH on Stupidinopolis.

[Geek_Girl]

82. I'm an economic centrist

But I like to call myself a liberal. Liberal to me means some one who believes in liberty, civil rights and social justice. So I take it as a compliment if someone calls me a liberal and I think Howard Dean does too.

[killbotfactory]

83. He doesn't hate gays and is against stupid counter-productive wars

He doesn't want to ban abortions, he doesn't want to reduce taxes indefinately, he's not afraid to oppose Bush, and he married a jew. What more evidence do you need?