Why the heck is Biden going after other Democrats.

[madfloridian]

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/index.ssf?050321fa_fact
First Kerry bashing:
“That night, I got off that trip, from Scranton, I got off the plane, Wilmington airport, only private aircraft, get off, pick up a phone, call a local place called the Charcoal Pit before it closes. They have great steak sandwiches and a milkshake. Triple-thick milkshake. And I hadn’t eaten. I’m going to pass it on the way home. They’re literally sweeping the floors. A woman, overweight, forty years old, a little unkempt, had a tooth missing in the side, not in the front”—he showed his flashing white teeth, to demonstrate—“walks up to me to give me my steak sandwich. ‘Senator Biden, I’m so glad you’re here. I’ve got a problem.’ And I take out a piece of paper, maybe Social Security for her mother, and she said, ‘I heard you’re for Kerry.’ And she said, ‘You’re so strong and he’s so weak.’”
Biden looked at me, to make sure I understood what he seemed to think was a point of considerable nuance. "

And about Dean, whom he critiques every chance he gets. This from the guy who sold out on the Bankruptcy bill, and then wrote a lousy letter to defend it. And Lieberman joins in. Their war loving is getting on my nerves.

SNIP.."Biden could find little to say about Dean, other than this: “No goddam chairman’s ever made a difference in the history of the Democratic Party.” His colleague Joseph Lieberman, who is perhaps the most conservative member of the Democratic caucus, said, “Dean was wrong on the war and what he was talking about was bad for the country. We’ll see what he does as chairman. If he devotes his energies to building a party at the base, as he talked about doing, good for him. If he continues to be a prominent spokesman on defense policy, I would regret it.”

Geez, I bet Kerry loves him. He really is insulting to Kerry.

SNIP..."He has come to realize, he said, that many Democrats still haven’t grasped the political importance of September 11th, and again he recalled how he had urged Kerry to keep his campaign message focussed on terrorism. Kerry, Biden said, would tell voters that he would “fight terror as hard as Bush,” but then he would add, “and I’ll help you economically.” “What is Bush saying?” Biden said. “Terror, terror, terror, terror, terror. I would say to John, ‘Let me put it to you this way. The Lord Almighty, or Allah, whoever, if he came to every kitchen table in America and said, “Look, I have a Faustian bargain for you, you choose. I will guarantee to you that I will end all terror threats against the United States within the year, but in return for that there will be no help for education, no help for Social Security, no help for health care.” What do you do?’

[Frances]

1. Very discouraging

nt

[roguevalley]

77. Gannon's got his back. Among other things. :-D

[fujiyama]

2. Biden is all about none other than...

you guessed it - Biden.

I've never seen a politician so happy to be in front of a camera. He has a huge ego. He usually talks a nice smooth talk...oh he talks and talks, but in the end he knows how to cave to RW pressure.

I suppose in this case he doesn't even bother with his usual show. He's made it clear what he thinks.

And he's bought and paid for by MBNA.

As for the other Joe, everything about him has been said already. His foreign policy is indistiguishable from Bush.

[xxqqqzme]

3. I am so f*cking tired of these

DLC/PPI Democratic wannabes. If they ain't gonna use w/ the same language as everyone else....then...STFU

[AntiCoup2K4]

8. Biden's far beyond a wannabe. He's a PNAC signator.

And between that and his MBNA betrayal, he can go fuck himself as far as I care. He's beyond a DINO.

[bear425]

62. Are you sure about him being a PNAC'er?

This list doesn't have him on it:

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/charts/pnac-chart.php

I definitely agree he's a DINO, at the very least.

[autorank]

4. Biden's always been a fruit cake. Realize that the DNC Chairman

position has never been a co-equal power base with Congress or other prominent Democrats. They're threatened by Dean, his base, and the power he's brought to the position. They'll suck up when people go after them and they need Dean, particularly Lieberman who will face a liberal challenge in the CT Senate primary. Haha, Joe's, you're a little worried aren't you. Well, get used to it. It will get much, much worse. You'll actually have to show Dean respect. I can't wait until 2006!

[Cha]

43. Since you put it that way..

neither can I!

[pdurod1]

5. Actually agree w/Savage: Overbiden

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tsuki]

6. Long-term Congressional Democrats will not get over the

grassroots revolt that voted Dean in. They long for Bushbots.

[AP]

7. That last quote...that really burns me. The lie that Republicans promote..

...is that people have to chose between security from terror and security from poverty.

It is NOT an either/or choice, and, in fact, chosing poverty in order to be secure is a false choice. The fastest route to a weak America that's easy to attack is through impoverishing the middle class, polarizing wealth, and destroying opportunity. We can't have a strong America without having a strong America. That's the lesson FDR taught us.

I'm not surprised that Biden is promoting that lie.

[Andromeda]

34. Why does Biden say these stupid things?

It's a ridiculous argument to make. It's clear that Biden doesn't have to make those difficult choices for himself.

[punpirate]

9. Biden, like many Democrats these days...

... has become corrupt in his attempt to get corporate cash to the same degree as the `pugs.

One day, there will be a new crop of politicians who will adhere to a simple standard for all legislation they introduce or support: "is this good or bad for the common man?" and will support only the good.

When that day comes, Joe Biden and his ilk will be left behind.

[Wilms]

10. Glad to hear it.

Those statements from those guys is an endorsement of Dean and the need to clean-up the Party.

[marcologico]

11. He complains that Kerry ignored his advice. It's easy to see why. (n/t)

[LittleClarkie]

12. Kerry tried to lead the way for these asshats to accept Dean

but so far it's him and the State parties. My county Dem Party membership chairman said he was defending Dean on the same grounds: that Dean was endorsed at the grassroots, state level. The states want him, even if the national party doesn't.

When some of us said Kerry was leading the way, this is what we meant. He didn't need to lead the way on the grassroots level. He was trying to lead his fellow wonks in Washington.

Well, at least HE is supportive. He still has a support Dean link on his website even.

As for Biden, that quote about someone looking at him an saying "you're so strong and he's so weak" just makes me wanna puke. He went and gave Kerry a hug during the inauguation. Was that to support Kerry during a difficult time? Or was that to get some camera time because he knew where the camera would be aimed if it wasn't on the prez? I'd never had strong feelings about Biden, but I'm learning to dislike him intensely. I hope he doesn't think he's going to run for prez or something. What a sleazeball.

Meanwhile, Kerry's record so far in Congress is ten times better than Biden's. Biden talked a good game in committee to Gonzalez, but that was about it.

[gumby]

13. This article is so disgusting on so many levels.

Regardless of the players named, this article seems to be a Democratic hit piece.

However, very few, if any Democrats will "win" any major positions with the rigged voting system that is now in place. So, the author's 'inside baseball' crap means nothing.

Perhaps Jeffery Goldberg should do a piece on votescam??????

[rehema]

14. Don't leave out Tom Carper, he is worse than Biden or Lieberman

[TomClash]

15. Were those original thoughts?

Or did Credit Card Joe plagiarize them?

[imenja]

16. he's positioning himself for a presidential bid

Were these recent comments? From my perspective, his greatest liability right now is his support for credit card companies against the American people in the bankruptcy bill.

[matcom]

17. Biden is running in '08

bank it. and my prediction is he will be the nominee. bank it. and i will go 3rd party for the first time in my life. bank it.

[BlueManDude]

20. he won't be the nominee - he's esentially a buffoon

haven't read this article but it sounds like typical biden - making a jackass out of himself.

[flpoljunkie]

29. I read it..."a reputation as something of a grandstander." LOL!

" had established a reputation as liberal in the mainstream of his party, and also as something of a grandstander."

What an understatement!

[BlueManDude]

37. probably very few friends in the Dem caucus. A loudmouth...

a lout who's never seen a Sunday talk show he could turn down.

[salin]

61. and something of a plagiarizer

on several speeches... and of an exagerator (if I recall correctly at one point in his 1988 campaign it came out that he had exagerated what was on his college transcripts.)

He runs - his treatment will be far worse than Gore's. They took erroneous statements of Gore and created a "fibber" storyline... with Biden - he gives them the real material to begin with.

As I type this I should mention that back in 1988, I initially supported Biden.

[Clarkie1]

39. No way Biden will be the nominee.

He can't beat Clark.

[BlueManDude]

18. Biden was elected to the senate at age 29

he is totally a creature of the beltway. like most beltway dems his political instincts have been perverted by his addiction to campaign cash and his absorption in the rw media machine.

[senseandsensibility]

19. because he's an ***hole?

n/t

[Padraig18]

21. I've always disliked Biden more than Lieberman. n/t

[paineinthearse]

22. By respect for Biden vanished with his votes supporting State and AG.

Sorry Joe, you spoke eloquently in the hearings, but you betrayed progressives and America with your votes to confirm.

[Bridget Burke]

23. "The Lord Allmighty (or Allah)" doesn't offer "Faustian" bargains....

For those who never heard the story, Faust made a pact with The Devil. Satan. Beelzebub.

Biden's false choice: "end of terror threats versus ALL social programs" didn't come from God.

[AP]

24. God wouldn't make the poor give up happiness and social security just

to be safe.

He'd make the people whose wealth Biden protects sacrifice a little instead.

[demwing]

25. "Look, I have a Faustian bargain for you..."

"...I will end all terror threats against the United States within the year, but in return for that there will be no help for education, no help for Social Security, no help for health care.” What do you do?’

Stupid fucking question, because it frames the debate as if you had to have one, or the other. You don't. You can fight for both.

If some "deity" came to me with such a deal, I'd doubt the holiness of said bargain, and tell the "Lord" to go to hell.

One should not forget who it was that Faust bargained with.

You can not have security from every evil if you breed evil at home. Take care of our children first, and our seniors, and our families, and our LIBERTIES.

If you don't protect these at home, then what is it about the US that remains worth protecting from terrorism?

[madfloridian]

26. And I just saw the closing paragraph about "Faustian bargain..."

“Look, I have a Faustian bargain for you, you choose. I will guarantee to you that I will end all terror threats against the United States within the year, but in return for that there will be no help for education, no help for Social Security, no help for health care.” What do you do?’

“My answer,” Biden said, “is that seventy-five per cent of the American people would buy that bargain.”

Wrong answer, Senator.

[roguevalley]

27. apparently, Gannon has him by the .... He's a plaigerist and a

dumbass. He needs to go.

[Lone Pawn]

28. People on here will spend all day bashing Kerry, bashing Biden, and

bashing Biden for bashing Kerry. :o

[leyton]

Yup.

DUers wanting to enforce "speak no evil" is like the pot calling the kettle black.

[IronLionZion]

79. We should be called BU for Bashing Underground

and we bash Democrats more than Republicans

[Padraig18]

30. Because he's a bigger ass than Joe Lieberman ever thought of being.

He makes me wanna hurl, the smarmy bastard!

:puke:

[LittleClarkie]

31. I feel the same

If I had to pick, I'd definitely pick Lieberman. Less of a weasel. At least I think Lieberman has honest reasons why he feels as he does in the foreign policy realm, even if I wildly disagree.

[Padraig18]

33. Exactly.

At least Lieberman has honest reasons and is consistent.

[IndianaGreen]

32. Biden is a neocon

plus he probably sucked Jeff Gannon's dick.

[FDU]

66. That pretty much sums it up.

nc

[cestpaspossible]

35. Why are DUers taking Jeffrey Goldberg seriously?

Seriously, stop letting every right-wing hack who wants to divide Democrats yank your chain.


I'm no fan of Biden's, but that doesn't mean I'm going to allow a liar like Goldberg to push my buttons.

[mikelewis]

36. Hear Hear - Can't we find a Republican to bash?

[TankLV]

45. We are - a repuke lite: Bidden.

It goes without saying what criminals repukes are.

bidden's got his ass so far up bush'es butt he can't see his head up his own ass.

He's an ass.

He says he's a "democrat" so he's our ass.

We need to slap him down before he manages to get anywhere to screw things up further than they already are.

That's why we're on his case. He deserves every bit of scorn and ridicule he gets.

He'll NEVER get my vote.

Him and Zell and holy joe.

Ugh.

[madfloridian]

44. Cockburn is one of the worst enemies of our Dems, especially Dean.

He has been one of the worst attackers of Howard Dean.

I do not read Counterpunch anymore, as I feel they are just as bad as the right wing in going after our Democrats...all of them.

I take issue with what you say about this. If Biden said those things, and I am sure he did about Dean...I have far worse he has said about him...then he is responsible for saying them.

I don't know the author, but because Cockburn does not like him does not bother me.

[cestpaspossible]

52. Well actually I agree with you about Cockburn

I guess you could say I don't like Cockburn, I don't like Goldberg, and I don't like Biden, but Biden the only one of the three who has ever in any way been my ally.

[lonestarnot]

38. OUT With him 2006! n/t

[zulchzulu]

40. The Charcoal Pit is a dump and Biden should shut his damn piehole

I know the place...on Concord Pike in Wilmington, DE. Been there a lot of times when I was a stoner teenaged rock and roller... it's a dump...been there recently and you may as well donate rat traps or give roach spray as a tip.

As for Biden dissing Dean and Kerry about their presidential aspirations, all you need to do is rewind the tape to 1988 when Biden plagiarized a speech and then denied it.. and then dropped out. Talk about a failure. And it also means he will never be able to run for President again.

Biden has been playing right into the Repugs' hands recently...I trust him like I trust McCain....talk a good talk, but in the end they stab you in the back...and smile.

A place where Biden should go is downtown Wilmington DE where MBNA has bought the downtown area with its gleaming buildings full of automatons...AND HIS FUCKING SOUL.

[MarianJack]

67. Back in the 60's...

...my Mom had a boyfriend that LOVED that place and I thought it was pretty good, too.

Around 1999, I was in Delaware with my wife and we stopped there for a nostalgic meal and (I thought) a treat for her.

OH, how the great have fallen! You are so right about it now being a dump!

[zulchzulu]

81. I can't believe we're talking about the Charcoal Pit!

Wow.

Concord Pike ain't what it used to be. Actually, it's always sucked.

[mcscajun]

68. What a shame. I thought that was the only truth in Biden's whole story.

About the Charcoal Pit, that is. Of course, it's hard to believe you'd ever find him in there if he wasn't on a campaign stop.

I remember going there in 1989-90 when I was on assignment in Wilmington; it was marvelous then. I'm sorry to hear it's gone so far downhill.

I have a hard time believing anything Biden says; I wrote him a letter condemning his votes on the bankruptcy bill and let him know that while MBNA and the other big banks might own Delaware, his aspirations outside that state were dead.

[NightOwwl]

41. In one paragraph three things come through loud and clear.

“A woman, overweight, forty years old, a little unkempt, had a tooth missing in the side, not in the front”—he showed his flashing white teeth, to demonstrate—“walks up to me to give me my steak sandwich. ‘Senator Biden, I’m so glad you’re here. I’ve got a problem.’ And I take out a piece of paper, maybe Social Security for her mother, and she said, ‘I heard you’re for Kerry.’ And she said, ‘You’re so strong and he’s so weak.’”

1) His contempt for women.
2) His narcissism.
3) His dishonesty. I'd be willing to bet 1000 dollars this story is pure and utter bullshit.

[Cha]

42. biden sounds jealous as

hell. And isn't he running for president in 2008? Getting all his ducks in a row?

WHAT A LOSER!

NO Chairman of the DNC has ever been Dean before when we need him the most!

bush causes the terror and then only he can save us from more Terror..happy 1984!

[Kimber Scott]

46. They can start the RLP.

The Republican Light Party.

[Dr Fate]

47. Be warned- swing voters don't donate or volunteer.

You are lucky to even get them to vote- especially in non-presidential midterms.

Biden is an idiot.

Who do these people think are going to man phones & knock on doors for them in 2006???

[liberalpragmatist]

48. I don't have a problem with him politically

And frankly, I think his views on foreign policy, with the exception of the Iraq War, are pretty good. He would have made a good Secretary of State for Kerry.

I think Kerry genuinely thinks he's a friend (by all accounts, they ARE close and Kerry wanted him as Sec. of State). Frankly, I think it reflects well on Kerry that he can handle a friend who spills all this dirt on him right in his face.

Basically, the big problem with Biden isn't his position on the issues, it's his egotism. He has a very hightened sense of his own importance. Basically he's quite an ass.

Frankly, he annoys me more than Lieberman. I've always thought Lieberman's a genuinely nice guy and his views on domestic issues is largely good - the problem is his sanctimoniousness and his lack of any good political judgement - he's so enamored of striking a deal, purely for the sake of "bipartisanship." And he's constantly trying to rat out others in the party b/c they're not being "bipartisan" enough.

[Clarkie1]

50. Not just Biden's problem. Kerry's too.

"Basically, the big problem with Biden isn't his position on the issues, it's his egotism. He has a very hightened sense of his own importance."

[liberalpragmatist]

53. Well, we'll agree to disagree

I've never seen anything to indicate that Kerry's the ass that Biden is. Kerry IS very ambitious and he is very self-confident and that can lead to a heightened sense of his own abilities.

But I've never seen him be anything but honorable to others. Yeah, there were some off-mike comments directed at Dean, but he hasn't ratted on him like Biden or Lieberman. I can't find a quote of Kerry bashing others in the party. Certainly not Clark, who by all accounts Kerry quite respects.

[Clarkie1]

55. I agree Kerry is certainly not the ass Biden is.

However, there are some senators (well, at least two) who in their minds fancy themselves THE leader of democratic party.

They aren't.

I'll leave it at that.

[bilgewaterbill]

49. Dean needs to fire back.

This is a turf war and Dean needs to establish the pecking order w/in the party. If he lets this shot go unanswered he might as well roll over.

[madfloridian]

51. He can't do that as chair. We need to stand firm and fight back.

That is why he said to go to the blog and post. The other party members read the blogs and forums, they know what we are saying. Many even post at Kos and MyDD. Feingold and Boxer have, and Reid responded to one blogger. They are beginning to use the blogs and forums now as a way to communicate. Wonder where they got that idea?

Dean has to get along with all groups in the party. And he should. However, he uses the term Republican Lite everywhere he goes, and we all know who he is referring to.

[bilgewaterbill]

54. Go to which blog?

Gotta link?

[madfloridian]

56. Here.

www.democrats.org

Choose blog at the top left.

[ArtVandaley]

71. I disagree. Dean needs to act like a mature statesman

Dean has been a class act since he got elected chairman. As long as he's taking the high ground, all the asshole bashing him will just look smaller.

[IronLionZion]

80. Chairman Dean is above this

He even made his peace with Gep and Kerry over their ridiculous feud during the primaries. Biden is insignificant and this shit is not worth dignifying with a response.

That and the author of the article is a a notorious RW asshole who I trust as far as I can sling a piano. Biden may not have even said that.

[DesEtoiles]

57. kick

[Carl Yasutomo]

58. What an idiot

(I mean Biden, of course)

[jmatthan]

59. I (do not) like you!

eom

[BamaBecky]

60. Biden needs the truth behind 9/11...he is clueless....n/t

[OneTwentyoNine]

63. Biden talks to DC children....

Sure thing kids...I voted for the Bankruptcy bill so these Delaware credit card companies can make BILLIONS more no matter what the financial circumstances of your families. Got a problems with that??

[enough already]

64. Easy answer

He's running for President and trying to appeal to "the middle". Just like Hillary and the rest of the saps that make up our "leadership".

[ananda]

65. darth biden

Yes, Biden has definitely gone over to the dark side.

Sue

[atommom]

69. It's not just his huge ego, or his corruption ... there's a serious lack

of good judgement there, too. He comes across as a know-nothing blowhard who thinks everyone else is in awe of his wit.

[ArtVandaley]

70. Wow, any respect I had for Biden has been destroyed in the last month

What a jackass.

[DrGonzoLives]

72. I think Biden has lost it

No, I don't think he's a DINO, and healthy criticism is a good thing, but his actions recently have started making me wonder what the hell it is he's doing.

[Norquist Nemesis]

73. Biden's trying to save his ass

and is going with how he sees the wind blowing. My guess is, he's looked at the seats in Washington and has listened to the powerbrokers who pound the drum that America has spoken! Move to the "Right"! Of course, after the 2006 elections, he may be singing a different tune all over again.

I guess this is the biggest problem I have with Biden. He can be an excellent spokesperson. Unfortunately, he can also be a spokesperson for either side...and that is a problem. When you see purely partisan hogs like Dana Rohrbacher and David Dreier getting MSM exposure with their statements...well, Biden looks nothing short of self-serving instead of public-servant.

[yurbud]

74. LETTER to Joe: bitch about Dean in private

My letter to Joe:


March 14, 2005

Senator Joe Biden
201 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING
WASHINGTON DC 20510


Senator Biden,

I was disappointed to see these comments about Howard Dean coming from you in the New Yorker:

Biden could find little to say about Dean, other than this: “No goddam chairman’s ever made a difference in the history of the Democratic Party.” His colleague Joseph Lieberman, who is perhaps the most conservative member of the Democratic caucus, said, “Dean was wrong on the war and what he was talking about was bad for the country. We’ll see what he does as chairman. If he devotes his energies to building a party at the base, as he talked about doing, good for him. If he continues to be a prominent spokesman on defense policy, I would regret it.”


I think you and several other pro-business democrats are confusing your popularity with lobbyists and big business with what actual voters think of you compared to someone like Howard Dean.

Howard Dean represents the FDR, unapologetic idealism of the party, and he actually listens to regular people and proposes solutions to problems that could at least conceivably help working class Americans. Before the press and party insiders killed his campaign over the most trivial issue imaginable, his inability to do a Tarzan yell, he did more to give hope and energize voters than anyone in Washington.

You on the other hand, are viewed as at best a good intentioned coward, who is making the GOP drive to turn our country into a single party state that much easier by fawning over moral filth like Alberto Gonzalez and voting in favor the bankruptcy bill without even proposing amendments to reign in out of control credit card interest rates or prevent them from giving out multiple cards with high credit limits to college students and other young adults with the intention of putting them permanently in debt.

If you want to have a national role in politics instead of just being the senator from the banks in Delaware, you should swap the way treat Howard Dean with how you treat President Bush: publicly, politely salute and say you will give his ideas serious consideration, and privately do your bitching when you are giving hand jobs to lobbyists and Republicans.

Howard Dean is fighting for middle class America. I’m not sure what you are fighting for, but it’s not admirable.

[Robeson]

82. Nice letter...

[Laurab]

75. Biden can be an eloquent speaker - that's about it

I was quite impressed with his questions to Condalier during the confirmation hearings. He spoke of all the reasons she shouldn't be confirmed, and then told her he'd be voting to confirm her, of course. That was really my first introduction to Biden, since I'm relatively new to politics. It made no sense at all.

From what I've seen since, he does the same thing, over and over. I think each time he opens his mouth, his foot goes in a little deeper. To me, he is in no way a contender for any nomination, and should give it up, and SHUT up, and do the job he was elected to do. The person he's hurting the most is himself, I think, but if I were him, I would surely give up any ideas of running for President - I think one should like their own party if they're thinking of running.

[blm]

76. Kerry said he'll fight terrorism HARDER AND SMARTER THAN BUSH.

And attack terrorism at its roots, not just afterthefactwithbombs like Bush did.

Biden KNOWS he's spinning on this and catering to the news media bias that promotes the idea that Dems are weak on defense.


Biden's completely letting the media and the GOP off the hook for their lies.

[tom_paine]

78. Because it's EASIER than taking on THE PARTY and THE LEADER

Like a skinny guy turning away from the bully who kicked sand in his face and slapping his kid instead.

[ZootSuitGringo]

83. The man has visible hair plugs,

need I say more? Well I will. His vanity is near to none. That, I don't like in leader. Kinda of Napoleonic. Plus, I'm not voting for anymore senators from blue states for President. Sorry.

On Charlie Rose, back during the lead up to the war, the man was not speaking out against it but was calling it an foregone conclusion.

Well, Yeah....you voted for it my senator Friend. Guess that would help make it a foregone conclusion.