The Schiavo Case is a much bigger issue than the feeding tube

[Leilani]

This case is about the State gov't & then the Fed gov't overstepping their bounds & interfering with a case about a family's right to make medical decisions with their physician.

Because family members couldn't agree, the case went to Fla state courts & decisions were handed down, year after year, all consistently against the parents.

Well, then the Fundies got involved, along with JebBush, & then the Fla legislature. They haven't been able to reverse the decisions, so in jumps to the Taliban wing in DC.

Delay puts up legislation in the house, as does Frist in the Senate.

Folks, these people have no right to get involved in this decision.

Even the Supreme Court has refused to hear the case.

And what did the Dems do? In the Senate Ron Wyden tried to stop the legislation...no other Dems backed him up.

The lawyer for the Schiavo husband blasted the Dems today. He said they deserve to be the Minority party if this is the way they stand up for civil liberties. He blasted the Repubs, but said the Dems were worse.

He called out for Kerry, Clinton, Leahy, & asked where were they?

He also called them odious.

Finally, he asked us all to email, call, & write our reps. The vocal Fundie minority is being allowed to get away with these antics because there is no majority voice in the country.

I agree with him completely, & wonder what's your opinion?

[Dookus]

1. I agree

I called Barbara Boxer's office today (took forever to get through - the phones in her Washington and SF offices were busy for a long time) to say the same thing.

It's insane, and a sign of the Republicans overreaching. I think this will hurt them, *IF* the Democrats can stand up and fight on this issue. It's an easy argument to make - keep the government out of our death-beds.

[Leilani]

7. Right! This is a clear cut privacy issue.

Where are the Repubs who used to be about limited govt? Privacy?

The irony is that most Americans are reasonable, & would deplore the situation.

Why are the Dems silent? Is this one too controversial? Will it damage election chances for some?

I'm outraged.

[Idioteque]

2. I tried to start a petition...

...to the Senate Democratic Caucus to filibuster any legislation regarding the Schiavo case. I wasn't able to get many signatures. We need a coordinated effort from the blogosphere and grassroots to get thousands of signatures before Monday. We also need to contact our members of Congress. Something like 70% of people agree with the husband. The Dems shouldn't let the media persuade them into rubber stamping this Republican politicing.

[Leilani]

35. It's too bad you didn't get any help

But grassroots can do just so much.

It is time for elected reps to step up to the plate & do the right thing.

[mike_c]

3. I certainly agree that the repigs are using Schiavo shamelessly...

...to pander to what they perceive their base to be, and that everyone else seems conspicuous in their absence. Once again the republicans are setting the agenda and being allowed to define the issue without much opposition.

[Leilani]

14. Exactly!

These nuts are the minority, but they're running the show.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

4. I'm with you

I've steadily lost faith in the elected Democrats in Congress, especially Hillary Clinton and John Kerry.

This one just makes it worse. Panderers and cowards, all of them, made to look even more wishy-washy by the courage of Ron Wyden.

As long as the Right-To-Lifers - and, make no mistake, this is a Roe v. Wade issue - can intimidate the Democrats like that, I'm unable to back any of them. (That means no more checks get written for any incumbents.)

I'll just sit somewhere off to the side and cry for what's become of my beloved country.

[Mass]

6. All Democrats were silent

So dont use that to push your political agenda, this is really sad.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

18. You've got it wrong,

and I have no idea what "pushing (your) political agenda" means.

You do realize, don't you, that this site is called "DEMOCRATICUNDERGROUND.com," don't you? Get the feeling it might be sort of a political place, populated by Democrats?

I found your post confusing, I must say.

[Mass]

22. So why did you single out two Dems

out of 42 who were silent?

It seems to me the subject is important enough not to have a selective outrage.

[Leilani]

24. Because the lawyer called them out

during a press conference, twice!

[Mass]

25. Did he explain why?

I am trying to understand why all the democrats were and are still silent.

May be the lawyer called them and they did not do anything or may be he used two of the most recognizable names in the Senate? I dont care because anyway I am mad at them, but I am also mad at the 40 other ones.

[Leilani]

30. He called them "the Dem Leaders" in the Senate.

He also mentioned Leahy

And I think Finestein later on.

But he said there was a deal done in the cloakroom.

He probably mentioned Leahy & Feinstein because they are on the Judiciary committee.

[Mass]

33. Listen I agree totally with you on the subject of this story

So no reason to continue arguing on the matter.

The fact is that the Democratic leader was for a bill. He said so, and whoever was against it except Levin and Wyden (and I will not pretend to know who was for or against this bill) decided not to go or record.

I think this is shameful.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

27. I didn't "single" them out

I said they were the two who had most disappointed me recently. My disappointments are not limited to this issue.

Man, the reading comprehension.

I do not understand what "selective outrage" means. Is there a "general outrage" that you prefer, perhaps?

Ah, never mind. It's rhetorical.

[Leilani]

12. Exactly!!! This is about "What is Life?"

If a woman with no brain cortex for 15 yrs is alive, then a zygote is a life.

The Dem "leaders" are not leading anywhere.

The attorney said there was a cloakroom deal between both parties. He said the Dems were afraid to touch it.

[Mass]

5. I agree generally with what he said

ONe precision though, Levin did oppose the bill and said so.

As for the other Democrats, they were silent, apparently (difficult to know, as they was no roll call, but it seems this way).

[Leilani]

8. I'm basing my info on what the lawyer said.

[Idioteque]

9. The Senate bill was much more moderate than the House bill

While I disgaree with both of them, it seems that the Repubs really want the House bill to pass. It MUST be filibustered if it comes to the Senate.

[Mass]

16. The bill is moderate

because Reid and Conrad and some other Democrats wanted a bill and wanted to be sure that it passed without rollcall. This would never have happened without a moderate bill.

This does not change the fact that Congress should not have intervened in this situation because it is about privacy.

[Idioteque]

23. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with you

I just hope that they reject the Senate bill, try to ram the house bill through the Senate, and that it gets stopped by Wyden and some other decent Senators.

[mazzarro]

10. Everyday brings more example of the fecklessness of the

democratic party to stand up to the rePIGlicans. I am even becoming worried that Howard Dean may not be enough to instill any spine in the democratic legislators. Though I do hope that I am wrong on this. But I am saddened when the demos prefer to dodge rather than stand for some principles.

[Mass]

11. On this subject he is silent as well!

I was expecting at least an answer concerning the subpoenas from somebody. Except Waxman, it seems to be totally silent.

[Leilani]

21. I wish he could speak out on this one

But in his position he probably can't.

But he always said "politicians shouldn't practice medicine" & he was right.

[candy331]

13. You know if this drags out even longer it just might be that people

may come to their senses and see this for what it really is. My sister was all up in the air with me today about why not let the parents take her and perhaps the husband did do something(abuse) to her, and repeating she is brain dead stuff. I said she is not brain dead she is in a permanent vegetative state and cannot recover ever because that part of her brain is mush and when scientists fix that then God will be a thing of the past because then man can create life. Well she huffed about that because she is a religious Fundie to the highest. I said you forget that the whole problem with this is that the Govt has entered where God has told(her bible says too) no man to put asunder, pretending to enter now because of no written doc but later even written doc will be overwritten because the govt will make your life and death decisions. Believe me she did tone down somewhat after hearing that but a long way to go.

[Leilani]

15. The Fundies are putting out false info

That someone can recover from a "permanent" vegetative state. Every doctor denies this.

They're also saying the husband is after the money...he will not get one cent. He won a malpractice case & every bit was spent on his wife's care.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

20. Hey, do you think

these Professional Christians know that lying is a MORTAL SIN????

[Leilani]

26. I don't know if the average Fundie realizes they're lying

But the Pols & "Christian Leaders" sure know.

I think half these fruitcakes are already into the rapture.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

28. You think?

Well, doesn't The Rapture lift them up and take them to Heaven?

So, what the hell are they doing STILL HERE????????

[Leilani]

32. LOL!!!

Best line I've heard today.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

19. WAY TO GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sounds like you did a BODACIOUS job, Candy, and for that -

:yourock:

[teryang]

17. Okay to execute the mentally ill and retarded, okay to bomb

...civilians, okay to start wars for lucre, but it's not okay for a spouse and medical professionals to engage in a profound ethical decision without hypocritical politicians and religious demogogues interfering to advance their pathetically venal careers.

[Leilani]

34. "Life"

is a very narrow term for these crackpots.

[UTUSN]

29. It's about Wingnut PSYCHOSIS

Wingnuts are ANTI-DEMOCRACY, period. Look how they abandon any semblance of "Conservative" principles when it comes down to POWER, THUGism, and PANDERING.

As Michael SCHIAVO's lawyer said, and I'm joining the eternal-critics-of-our-own-Dems-tonight------------where were Senators HARKIN, LEAHY, CLINTON, REID, LEIBERMAN, and all the rest of our stars.

Apparently, one Senator WYDEN of Oregan, of whom I had never heard before, blocked last night's wingnut bill but was blocked in a DEM CAUCUS.

I'm a Dem for life, but I want to kick some Dems where it hurts right now.

[Mass]

31. I totally agree,

[w4rma]

36. Democratic politicians should not allow themselves to get sucked into this

spectacle, imho.

[nonconformist]

37. I agree, totally! nt

[Leilani]

38. Just looked at CNN's website

the online poll is 80% to 20% against the govt interfering in the Schiavo case.

Guess most people agree with us.

[cynatnite]

46. A lot of families (no matter their party) have been faced with this

What's happening here happens to families all over the country. I know so many people who have been put in the position of having to cease life support for their loved one.

There is little support for this kind of interference with the general public.

The repubs may just pay a heavy price for interfering in a what is supposed to be a family matter. Even though sometimes it seems like the majority is asleep or doesn't care on other issues, they have a low tolerance for the politicization of Terri's tragedy.

It's just my opinion, but I can't see this benefiting the repubs at all. Maybe the dems were right in keeping quiet.

[Warren Stupidity]

51. I'm with you right up to the last sentence

Why are we afraid to speak up when we are right and we have the majority on our side? As you say many families have been in exactly this position with their loved ones. The decision to let a family member die is painful and intensely private. The Democratic Party should have been screaming from day one that this is a private matter, that the government should stay out, that the interference from Jeb Bush in Florida and the shameless behavior of the Congress in Washington is intolerable.

[cynatnite]

53. You're right.

Keeping quiet like this is a mistake. I found an op/ed piece that basically said the dems are scared of the mobilized right as a result of the 2004 election. After reading it and your response, I agree.

[imenja]

39. Question about Right's views on govt funding of vegetative patients

They are miserly in their support of public funding for health care, yet they want to make it illegal to withdraw a feeding tube from anyone without a living will. Here's my question: If the person in the vegetative state is destitute, and his/her family can't afford sustained treatment, do they believe the state of Florida or federal government should pay for the person's medical care? My guess is they'd prefer to pull the plug than fund health care. Has anyone seen this particular point addressed?

[Mass]

40. No but this remembers me of this other case in FL

where a very profoundly mentally retarded woman was raped and got pregnant in a state facility while she was under the supervision of Family Services. The state of Florida, who had never bothered giving her a guardian to represent her rights, all of a sudden decided he needed to name one for the foetus in order to prevent an abortion.

There is also this week this example in TX, where a baby was taken off the breathing tube despite his parents's wishes because the hospital asked. We did not see the TX Governor and legislature opposing that.

[imenja]

42. interesting examples

I know of the Fla case but had not heard of the TX case. Terribly hypocritical isn't it?

[Mass]

43. Yes very hypocritical

Here is a DU thread with the TX case.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3294267&mesg_id=3294267

[sandnsea]

44. The baby died

They are a bunch of hypocrites and somebody has got to stand up to them. I cannot even believe my own wobbly Wyden is on the case. I'll have to send him a thank you.

http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/default.asp?view=plink&id=581

[ellenfl]

41. where are all these guys who are screaming about

the sanctity of life when people die because they can't afford the care they need? where are they when insurance companies deny lifesaving procedures? how about helping people who still have functioning cerebral corteces?

maybe the dems should be asking these questions . . . especially since they are the ones calling for universal health care. i think this would be the perfect rebuttal.

ellen fl

[sandnsea]

45. A few are

David Wade, a Kerry strategist, made that exact point.

“Ms. Schaivo is a Medicaid patient. Medicaid is keeping her alive. Why don't we ask: Do these Republicans believe that paying the cost of caring for Ms. Schaivo indefinitely isn't as important as tax cuts for millionaires?”

“Do they acknowledge that the cuts President Bush has proposed may diminish Ms. Schaivo's care and care for so many others like her receiving Medicaid? If an HMO denied coverage, do they believe that Ms. Schaivo should have a Patient's Bill of Rights to fight for that care? Why did they oppose the Catholic Church on Medicaid cuts that may affect thousands of patients just like Terry Schaivo for years to come?”


http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/default.asp?view=plink&id=579

[DemBones DemBones]

47. I disagree. If Terri Schiavo had expressed a wish

to refuse feeding tubes, ventilators, etc., in writing, there would have been no problem and she'd presumably have died long ago, without becoming well-known.

As it is, her husband gave formal consent for a feeding tube to be initiated yet "didn't remember" that Terri had said she'd never want that. That's more than a little suspicious to me. At best, his testimony is hearsay, as is his brother's -- and both would logically have Michael's interests in mind, rather than Terri's.

Bottom line: the stae of Florida has signed on to enforce the execution of a severely diabled woman, based on the hearsay testimoney of her husband, who will benefit from her death in some ways, even if not financially.

BTW, the MSM isn't telling you about all the disability rights activists who oppose starving Terri Schiavo, only about the RWers, with the predictable result that most of DU doesn't want to hear anything said in support of Terri being kept alive. People keep talking about right to privacy and right to die, but no one here really knows what Terri would want.

As Mouth (a magazine about disability rights and issues) says "I support the right to die. You go first."

In other words, don't expect us to allow you to euthanize us without a fight.

Not Dead Yet!!!

[Warren Stupidity]

50. Oh here we go again

Terri's 'disability' is that SHE HAS NO CEREBRAL CORTEX. She got to this condition gradually as the initial brain damage was not that severe, but the DAMAGE GOT WORSE OVER TIME. SHE HAS NO CEREBRAL CORTEX. She is not 'disabled' 'she' is not there.

The care she got before her CEREBRAL CORTEX completely disintegrated included therapy etc. and it was quite a while before Michael accepted that she was in fact gone. Shame on him I guess, right?

The disability rights people supporting the right wing fundies who are using this case to attack the right to die are being used. The courts have examined this case over and over and over again and have consistently affirmed that Terri expressed a clear wish to not be kept alive in these circumstances and consistently rejected all attempts to claim that Mr. Schiavo is acting in any manner other than the best interests of Terri, or that there is any medical basis for the claims that Terri is in anything other than a permanent persistant vegetative state. Let her die.

[Mass]

52. You miss the point

The point is that this is a privacy issue. The point is about the federal governement not intervening in what is a private issue.

I have no idea where I stand on the issue of euthanasia. What I know is that I dont want what happens in my family determine by the House and the Senate. This goes for reproductive rights, sexual orientation, or anything that relates to private matters.

[ellenfl]

54. michael schiavo has NOTHING to gain by the removal of his wife's feeding

tube and i don't find his initial request for the tube unusual. everyone hopes that their loved one will 'wake up' . . . sooner rather than later. but it's been FIFTEEN years! terri schiavo has no brain left! she's not just disabled, she is a total 'vegetable'!

i prepared my living will yesterday. i hope you all have too.

ellen fl

[Malva Zebrina]

48. This makes sense to me--as said upthread

If a woman with no brain cortex for 15 yrs is alive, then a zygote is a life.

That is what is at issue here exactly. That is why those would have a body without a brain recieve artificial means to keep a dead person alive.

The issue here is exactly one of a legal decision as to what actuallly constitutes life. It has been made, after fifteen years, based on enormous evidence given by professionals who deal with brain dead bodies often. This is not a coma, this is not a disability, this is not a woman who can think, communicate or perform in any way like a cognisant human being.

Life is not a body with only the smallest vestige of it's most primitive brain left intact.

It is cruel and immoral to try to blame the husband,to try to blame the judicial system,to try to blame the doctors,to try to throw in the straw man of "hearsay" evidence, to try to ignore the husband's rights and hand it over to the parents, thereby reinventing law , try to accuse the husband of greed and criminal conduct--it is almost a pathological obsession of the pro-life people, who have a crook, De Lay, on their side, who have the fanatic religious right on their side, who have other persons with murky backgrounds on their side, to keep a dead woman alive.


All of those things above are the obsessions and comulsions of people who would prefer to use force because they want their way re when life begins to be the law, rather than accept the law as it is now.

They will try to change it by hysteria, by loud and persistent harrassment, by bully tactics, by anything and anyway that would intimidate other people to get their way. That much is obvious when a Republican congress has the unmitigated arrogance to intervene in something where they have no business intervening at all. The lawyer for Mr. Sciavo said this action by the congress reminded him of the politburo and it is an abuse of power and worse, the Democrats cut deals, cheapening further the debate about "life".

They would also like to use force, as the quote above says, to require women to live for nine months ins a state that they do not want to live in. and that I believe is , indeed, the bottom line here.

pro-life people--you cannot force your idea of when life begins or ends on the people of this country. The shenanagins that have evolved over this case send your ideas into the realm of the religious fundamentalist fanatics, who are proving more and more immoral and bizarre as times go on.

[Disturbed]

49. The RW demands control over the people.

That is the bottom line of this politcal football.

"severely diabled woman" NO! This is a body, not a viable person.

The secondary issue is the state govt. &/or the natl govt.control over a marrigage contract. 19 judges have ruled that the marriage contract takes precedence over the parent's wishes.

I have noticed that every time this case is posted that it has gotten a whole lot of response and mainly emotional ones. I guess people are touched personally by this situation.

[girl gone mad]

55. I agree with you...

and with what others have said.

The voice of the MAJORITY is conspicuously absent from the dialogue.

The Democrats don't need to be contraversial or loud, a simple statement along the lines of "we feel this is a private matter and that the Federal government should not interfere" would suffice.

Most people believe Terri should be allowed to die in dignity, most people believe that the husband has the right to make decisions about her care. Where is our representation?

This is exactly how the fundies have managed to gain so much ground over the last decade. Everyone is too afraid to offend the extremists.