can Schiavo case help democrats?

[progressiveright]

I am not sure if I'm for some reason the only one who can see this, or if I am completely wrong, but isn't the Schiavo drama a perfect illustration of why we need public sponsored social programs?

The conservatives are up in arms against disconnecting the feeding tube, but the irony is that it is taxpayers money that pay for all the treatments that keep this woman alive. Shouldn't democrats jump on this case and introduce a 'Schiavo health care plan' to expand medicaid and provide basic life saving health insurance to all americans (at expense of cutting corporate welfare preferably). Conservatives hate the idea of being taxed to support anybody else against their will, but there are millions of Schiavos that will die without public help, and that is a kind of an argument that can open a lot of eyes, what do you think?

So if you think I'm onto something write your senator or email howard dean. Conservatives framed the dialogue and captured the heart of america, but their ideology is very conflicting and they don't follow through on their promises, it is my belief that to win democrats have to attack republicans from the right. This happens every time I read the news, I see a perfect opportunity for democrats to fight back and reframe the issue, but nothing happens, either I'm dumb or democratic leadership is clueless.

[Carolab]

1. OMG. That is BRILLIANT. I think YOU should suggest it to Dean.

That's just the kind of reframing we should be doing.

[progressiveright]

7. actually

I think dean is focusing on building up an efficient democratic organization right now, and trying to live down his 'wild ass' image that media created, so I wouldn't count on him making any newsworthy contentious statements like that. Still, we badly need liberal loudmouths, pundits, and politicians that are secure politically (like Boxer), that don't mind controversy. So it would make more sense to write Boxer about this idea actually. It's not about getting elected, its about setting democratic agenda, using newsworthy and sensansional topics and statements to frame what democrats stand for, and doing it over and over again until it seeps through to the general public.

[progressiveright]

8. or even better idea

Hillary Clinton. Imagine if she comes out in support of keeping this woman alive, saying that sanctioned suicide is unnacceptable to the american way of life, and then ties it in with a need for expansion of basic health care to all americans? conservatives heads will explode.

[postulater]

21. Exploding heads!

Great image!

I just had a flash of a Monty Python-esque scene with mushy Republican brain matter making the streets slippery as heads exploded while they walked to work.

[Mich Otter]

55. mushy Republican brain matter

Methinks the slippery spots will be small.

[postulater]

67. Yeah

but there's lots of them in some places.

[papau]

73. I agree - Hillarry is the point person we should contact make it happen

Please folks

It is email and snail mail and telephone call and fax time.

Moveon and Hillary should be all over this.

:-)

[ldf]

62. hellooooo!

are you on the "right" board?

your du name is progrssiveright? and what is that supposed to mean?

you are a rightwinger, but you are progressive? isn't that an oxymoron?

probably more along the lines of purposeful disruption of a liberal, truly progrssive website.

are you getting paid?

you mention us needing demcratic politicians who are afraid to be controversial, then what is more controversial than allowing people a dignified exit from this hell of a life?

you can call it "sanctioned suicide" if you want. fine. i have no problem with that terminology. euthanasia, whatever.

but anyone with the guts to say what needs to be said, that we treat our DOGS better than we treat our own family memebers, will get MY enthusiastic praise and support.

you aren't fooling no one.

[Hebegirl]

68. I want to keep the right to die though

I don't think Hillary should come out against "sanctioned suicide" because the right to die laws are already under attack in Oregon ....

[Carolab]

10. This is to the point

According to Palm Beach Post editor Randy Schultz she is NOT on medicare


http://www.palmbeachpost.com/opinion/content/opinion/epaper/2005/02/27/a1e_schultzcol_0227.html

Jeb's patients don't include Terri Schiavo

In Florida, about 30,000 children are in the foster care system. Some have been there for years, waiting for a permanent home. They are Gov. Bush's responsibility. But last week, they didn't have his attention.

In Florida, tens of thousands of boys and girls are in the juvenile justice system. From the incorrigible to the misguided, they are supervised by people who don't make much more than the minimum wage. Those juveniles are Gov. Bush's responsibility. But last week, they didn't have his attention.

In Florida, nearly 36,000 adults are in the Medically Needy program. It provides care for those who are too young for Medicare and too sick to qualify for Medicaid or get affordable insurance. They are Gov. Bush's responsibility. But he wants to cut the Medically Needy budget by $400 million, while cutting taxes. Last week, he wasn't looking for a way to make up the money for those people whose lives depend on what the state provides.

No, last week, Gov. Bush was worrying about a woman who is not his responsibility — Terri Schiavo.


more

[progressiveright]

13. all right

I assumed she was on some kind of public assistance, may not be medicaid or medicare but something else, I'm sure her husband is not paying for it for the obvious reasons, and no family can sustain that financially unless they are extremely rich.

Unless, of course, she has a private insurance from her job that covers this treatment indefinitely, in which case my argument kind of loses its momentum, but hey, at least it was a nice try. I did not research this issue, so I can be wrong.

Still, the basic point still stands, if conservatives are against diconnecting the feeding tube from this woman, why are they trying to gut all other social programs that keep people just like her, as well as those those that are alert to the world, alive?

[Carolab]

14. No, no, your point is valid! Read on in the article.

<snip>

The key difference, though, is that Terri Schiavo is not in the state's care.

But Gov. Bush's pattern is to make those for whom he is responsible less of a priority. When a retarded woman became pregnant after being raped in a state-run home, Gov. Bush didn't worry about her. Instead, the Department of Children and Families tried to have a guardian appointed for the fetus.

It's the same with education. Traditional public schools are the governor's foster children, always looking for a permanent home with him. When he refused to lower class size, voters ordered him to do so. Next year, the governor wants voters to repeal that law. But you'd never know, to read his Web site. It touts "an education reform package focused on providing teachers with the tools and resources needed to provide Florida's students with a high-quality education." In fact, his proposed constitutional amendment would try to buy off teachers by raising the statewide minimum salary — something he could have done on his own but will try to do now in a halfhearted way to get something he wants more, which is to kill the class-size amendment.

Terri Schiavo is one person in tragic, private circumstances, and the governor responds. Millions of Floridians in the state's care face daily hardships, and the governor does not respond. No headlines there.

[papau]

74. It is a tort award that provides the funds that are keeping her alive.

interesting

[Carolab]

77. Yes, that is very interesting, after the Repukes decided we can't sue

doctors for malpractice and we can't sue if a manufacturer kills us or maims us for life, and they decided that if medical expenses eat up your entire life savings you can't then declare bankruptcy, and they decided to discontinue food programs for the poor (LET THEM STARVE!)

[seventythree]

31. this makes NO sense

"too sick to qualify for Medicaid" -- I heard Terry was on Medicaid because the money from the malpractice suit award had run out. Medicare is for the seniors -- Medicaid is for the low income, non-senior, and is funded 50/50 by the states and feds. If you are on SSI, and I think, but am not sure, SSD, you get a Medicaid card -- but I could be wrong about social security disability -- maybe that one comes with a Medicare card, even though the person is not 65. My best guess is that when she became disabled, she did not have 40 quarters in so would become eligible for SSI (rather than SSD), and the Medicaid card, when her money ran out, as her disability is permanent. There is no argument here for universal health care -- in fact Terry's case cuts against it as she IS (again to my knowledge) receiving state paid health care. There is an argument against caps on pain and suffering and some other tort reforms -- had she received less money from her settlement, she would have been on the public medical dole, sooner.

[kerrygoddess]

52. DNC Chair doesn't make policy

Find the appropriate House and Senate Sub-commitees and the Minority Chair and Members of the Committees and suggest it to them.

[ldf]

60. in a pig's eye

it is. if we're going to "reframe", how about we "reframe" around something resembling the truth?

ok?

[dhinojosa]

2. Nice points ... eom

[cynatnite]

3. I think this will backfire on the conservs

Simply because they are interfering in what's regarded as a family matter. It shows their lack of respect or caring for individual rights and the family.

My mother is very RW and she thinks it's a disgrace that people like Frist are using Terri as a political pawn.

I believe this makes the conservs look very bad.

[Old and In the Way]

4. Greatest Page Material.

yes, I think you nailed it. If Terri's healthcare is so important to Congress....what about the rest of us?

[progressiveright]

5. exactly

also, another reframing point - there is no such thing as government program, democrats should stop using the word government altogether and say public instead. the point is that it's not some government in washington that decides to tax us and create social programs, we are the ones who decide, I am the government, you are the government, that's the whole point of democracy. If majority of people decide that we all have to contribute a little so that nobody has to live in extreme poverty or die because of lack of most basic healthcare, and you don't agree, you shouldn't blame the government, you should blame all americans.

[chicagojoe]

6. Repubs are using this as a political scam.

They are just trying to curry favor with the "right to life" crowd.
I don't think ANYONE should be gaining from this politically, even our side.

[progressiveright]

9. politics is a dirty business

if you can get away with it, you do it, or the other side wins. gloves have to come off. nothing in politics is pretty, unfortunately.

besides the whole controversy doesn't even make sense - husband wants his comatose wife to die by starvation. If she still can feel anything at all, wouldn't that be cruel? And if she is completely dead to the world why does he care that much to put up this fight.

[chicagojoe]

12. There should be NO politics in this. PERIOD.

Look who led this for the R's-- the low-life Tom DeLay. And where were the D's, who should have been grinding their collective heel into the throat of ANYONE in Congress who tried to legislate this?

This whole matter should not be politicized at all, yet here come all of the self-appointed moralty monitors, trying to tell people how to live, or not live, their lives.

[progressiveright]

16. laci peterson law

that says it all. it's ugly but it works.

[Casablanca]

58. "that says it all. it's ugly but it works."

Designer lawmaking is worse than ugly, it's a bad idea. It doesn't matter whether it's "Bush vs. Gore", the "Terri Schaivo/Get DeLay Off The Hook" law, or the "Terri Schaivo/Hillary Clinton Law".

Laws are standards of conduct, and there is more than enough compromise in our legal system already - we should not be wanting to make the situation many times worse by "reframing" the concept of a law into a tool of convenience for political leverage. If we join the Republicans in exploiting the legislative process this way, the only long-term result will be a continued disregard for empty laws, and eventually lawlessness.

Any workable socialized medicine system in this country will never come about through political sleight-of-hand and backdoor deals. That was Hillary's approach in '94, and it failed. Too many powerful organizations have too much invested in the problem. It will only happen, if it ever does, through above-the-board citizen activism, above-the-board national debate, UNCOMPROSED politics, and good karma.

[chomskysright]

26. it would not be cruel for her to die...if....

you have ever cared for people like this, as a professional, you have some idea of how she functions and how everyone would be better off if she were dead.

[ima_sinnic]

32. COMATOSE? here we go again

THE WOMAN IS DEAD. SHE HAS NO BRAIN. SHE IS NOT GOING TO "WAKE UP." WITHDRAWING THE FEEDING TUBE IS NOT "CRUEL". SHE FEELS NO PAIN.

HER HUSBAND IS HER HUSBAND AND HE LOVES HER VERY MUCH, STILL, AND IS TRYING TO DO FOR HER WHAT HE WOULD HOPE SHE WOULD DO FOR HIM--AND WHAT I WOULD DO FOR MY BRAIN-DEAD SPOUSE, IF GOD FORBID IT SHOULD COME TO THAT.

excuse me for "shouting," but your repetion of right-wing bullshit talking points has just sent my blood pressure through the roof. your original post almost sucked me in but you've lost me now. thanks for playing anyway. good bye.

[ashmanonar]

46. this starvation crap again!

seriously. she ISN'T THERE ANYMORE. terry schiavo is dead. her lungs still breathe, and her heart beats, but she is gone. her brain is mostly fluid now. (isn't it funny that nobody cared before, when she starved HERSELF: this is the whole reason she's in this persistent vegitative state, because she was anorexic.

there's a difference between a coma (an extended sleep) and her persistent vegitative state. PVS means that she is braindead. no activity. only the parts of the brain that control automatic body functions are still there, which is why she breathes and her heart is beating. there are also random nervous functions, if i'm not mistaken.

the reason he's fighting is because she didn't want to be kept alive on a respirator. he's fighting for her choice. she wanted to be allowed to die if she ever came to be like this. her RW fundie parents are the ones who drew this whole thing out, and started all the litigation (which was overturned by the supremes, and ordered them to remove the feeding tube.)

besides, i thougth this whole thing was over. i thought that they removed the feeding tube.

[cornermouse]

47. A couple of points.

1. They offered Schiavo money, $10,000,000 to walk away. He didn't. That tells me that he isn't doing this for money. He's doing it because he is convinced its the right thing to do.

2. Divorce is no longer the equivalent of a "scarlet letter". He could quite easily divorce her and remarry without any blame being directed at him if that was his goal. Again. After 15 years of no recovery, he's seeing this through because he is convinced its the right thing to do. I suspect he's telling the truth when he says Terri told him she never wanted to be kept on life support.

[KT2000]

11. Yes it could but

it sounds like the Democrats are keeping slent for fear of angering the RW crowd.

You make a good point - lots of people without insurance are denied access to medical care until something becomes life threatening and they go to the emergency room. Then it is too late for some.

The Dems could sure take advantage of the hypocrisy of all of this.

[Dogmudgeon]

17. Really, how can anyone answer a howling mob?

In months and years to come, this will look exactly like the howling mob it is. Young people will watch it on their TVs -- the chanting, the mass praying, the rocking back and forth with closed eyes -- and wonder how we could have been so superstitious and godstruck.

--p!

[DemBones DemBones]

18. The media wants you to focus on the right wing opposition while

ignoring the disability rights activisits protesting against the killing of Terri Schiavo.

The disabled are very concerned about this case because it's part of a trend to portray a disabled life as one not worth preserving. Seventeen disability rights organizations filed amicus briefs in trying to halt the removal of her feeding tube. They've been in there fighting throughout this case, and many others like it. But the MSM ignores them.

They've also been very outspoken against "Million Dollar Baby" because of the horrible messages it sends about disabled lives. Again, the media pays little attention. Imagine a movie in which a gay teen commits suicide as the climax of the story and all the critics say it's a great movie and of course it's understandable that a gay person should choose suicide to end his suffering. Think how that would go over at DU and then explain why DU isn't getting it when the disabled tell them we have issues about the Terri Schiavo case and we have issues about M$B

Ask yourself what countries have ever accepted the use of euthanasia as a "solution" for the problems of the disabled. Ask yourself if that was out of concern for the disabled or out of a desire to get rid of "useless eaters." Ask yourself if that's a driection we want to go in.

[ellenfl]

30. do you really think terri shciavo considers this 'life'? eom

[ima_sinnic]

35. DISABLED MY A@@

the woman is not "disabled," she's BRAIN DEAD, ferchrissake.
sheesh, you people never quit with the EFFING BULLSHIT.
god's been trying to "call her home" for years now but those with a POLITICAL AGENDA, who care more about VEGETABLES than real SUFFERING HUMAN BEINGS, have been "playing god" and using her like a political football. shame on you and all of them.

[footinmouth]

50. DemBones ...

I've been reading your posts on behalf of the disabled over the past few weeks. I'd just like to say that I'm far more willing to listen to your points of view than those who are arguing strictly for "life". This case seems to have implications for all of us. I'm concerned for my rights to not have the government make decisions for myself or my family. You're concerned for the rights of the disabled, others are concerned for life in general. This is a tough case for everyone. I applaud your efforts on behalf of the disabled who may feel they will be effected by the outcome of this situation.

[gumby]

15. Exploiting Teri Schiavo, her husband

and her family is not nice in any manner.

The Republicans play these sort of high degree (lethal) games all the time. Confronting their psychosis is essential, but beating them with the body of their latest media madness doesn't seem like a good idea to me. This is just another of the never-ending examples about how the right-wing uses symbolism and emotionalism to promote the very things they are against.

Perhaps Hillary Clinton could introduce a bill about eating disorder awareness.

[Catt03]

19. Right

"Perhaps Hillary Clinton could introduce a bill about eating disorder awareness."

There are millions of people that suffer from this addiction....eating disorders. What about other addictions? Will they now go to any length
to save a heroin addict? A compulsive gambler? A sex addict?

This information seems to be lost in all the histrionics surrounding this event.

I am not trying to blame the victim here but it's time for a reality check.

[kbm8170]

20. I don't know that the GOP has captured the hearts of Americans

After watching DeLay's remarks this morning on Good Morning America, this seems like Republican grandstanding at its worst. This case is something that the 700 Club and the religious Right have been braying about ever since this case started in Florida - this is pandering to these people in the worst form.

Moreover, ABC cited one poll that indicated that some 87% of Americans agreed that if they were in Terri's condition they would want to be allowed to die - so what exactly is the intent of this Congressional grandstanding?

I do agree - Democrats should take the opportunity to point out the expense here - especially since some of them cooperated in passing that Bankruptcy Act with a full understanding that nearly one out of every two new bankruptcies are the direct result of overwhelming medical expenses, NOT financial irresponsibility.

[peaches2003]

22. Drs. Bush and DeLay

I think the large majority of Americans are AGAINST gpvernement interfering in their medical decisions, whatever the reason. Look at the polls about this. The majority understands that Terry Schiavo is not going to ever have any quality of life, that NO ONE would want to live like she does, that the medical decisions are legally her husband's to make, that her poor parents are fooling themselves, that the RW Repubs are doing this for political reasons, that Bush could care less about her but is using this for politics, and that we ALL could lose our freedom over our own life and death- Bush and gang are pretty much free now to do anything.

I think we need billboards EVERYWHERE across the country with DeLays' picture and Bush peeking over his shoulder- one sentence at the bottom- YOUR NEW DOCTORS AND JUDGES!

[Malva Zebrina]

23. After seeing Mr. Schiavo's lawyer speak

I hate to say this, but he succinctily pointed out , naming names, such as Kerry, Feinsteing, Hillary Clinton, Leahy of meeting in the cloakroom to make a secret deal with the Republicans on this issue

I now understand somewhat, why Democrats are , as the lawyer,George Felos,who BTW has an interesting bio for those who value sprituality

http://www.bluedolphinpublishing.com/Felos.htm

said, the minority party and a disintegrating minority party.

This method of making deals is what is wrong, amongst other things, with Democrats. This is the way things are done. We have heard it so often that we have to pick our battles and once again, there is outrage at the lack of spine, the lack of honesty and a people who are fast becoming disenchanted, even disgusted, with this type of good old boy approach.

That is why I think a candidate that is not a Senator, would be a better candidate, at least from the perspective of the value of integrity and the lack of experience in cutting deals that become bad deals done for selfish reasons, as seen by those who secretly met in the cloakroom.

I have met some who would deny connections to the fanatics right wingers who are in charge down there in Florida, but also advocate that a dead woman be kept alive. I don't think it possible they can simply divorce themself from the motly crew of religious right fanatics that is leading this crusade against the removal of the feeding tube that easily. I hear them and their talking points are exactly the same. Taking up the cause, using the same talking points, following leaders whose background is swamp slime and repeating their talking points and then try to separate themeselves ie----they have a different cause for wanting to keep alive an already dead woman, for wanting to ignore the rule of law, or better, claiming the law is insufficient, for causing harm to Mr. Sciavo by spurious accusations, also by using the talking points of the likes of Randall Terry , that Mr. Sciavo is a bad man who may have abused Terry, is a liar and etc.

There is no sense, imo, that the wheat here has been separated from the chaff

[BornaDem]

24. Schiavo's parents want to take over her care at home...

and pay for her themselves so a "Schiavo health care plan" would be a pay for it yourself plan. Not exactly a plus for the Democrats.

[sallyseven]

25. That home care could last about 5 days.

Why didn't they do that before. This is just a grandstand play by her parents. How much will Medicare have to pay for nurses, equipment, medication etc. What about bed sores? They are nuts and the right wing is paying them. I would never let my child be the object of a circus show. Those pictures are old and only some of the frames are used. Not the countless hours of no action. Her parents will die and then what? Tom DeLay will go to HELL

[BornaDem]

27. Because the judge will not remove Michael Schiavo as her guardian...

and Michael Schiavo will not allow her family to care for her because he wants her DEAD. They have petitioned the court (one judge) to remove him as her guardian ever since he decided to spend HER malpractice settlement on legal fees to secure her death beginning in 1993. You should do some reading before you decide this woman deserves to die. Michael told the jury that gave her the settlement that he needed the money for care for her for the rest of her life. As soon as he got the money, he remembered that she wanted to die.

[ima_sinnic]

33. "deserves to die"? or already dead?

YOU are the one who should do some reading my friend. your post is riddled with inaccurate right-wing propagandistic BULLSHIT. take it over to "the other board," where they believe those fantasy stories. Michael Schiavo is a hero; he has never abandoned his wife to those, like you, who can't imagine the poor woman being allowed to die when it's her time. SHE'S A VEGETABLE!!! and I for one would HIGHLY RESENT one thin dime of my tax dollars going to the care and upkeep of an incurable VEGETABLE when there are living, breathing, THINKING, FEELING HUMAN BEINGS who are IN PAIN, SUFFERING, STARVING, ABUSED, HOMELESS in the world. Apparently VEGETATION is more important and more heart-rending than real SUFFERING with you people.

on edit: oh and BY THE WAY, why the hell should "the judge" (which one? there have been NUMEROUS, all saying the same damn thing) remove the woman's husband as her guardian? haven't you heard of the "sanctity of marriage"? or is that just a concept that applies AGAINST gay people? :argh:

[girl gone mad]

45. At least 21 courts have sided with her husband.

You repeat all of the right wing talking points, all inaccurate.

Terri has no hope of recovering. Very few people would want to live as she is now, and I'm sure even fewer would want to become the spectacle that her parents are making her in to.

Her husband did the right thing. He stood by her side and fought to give her the right to die in dignity. I believe him when he says that is what she wanted, and I think what the parents are doing to her is the definition of cruelty.

[LiberalFighter]

61. Who has power of attorney if you end up PVS?

Your spouse or your parents?

[motherbell]

29. Alot less than where she is now

Furthermore, we are just making ourselves more hated by defending the judges ruling. There is no living will. This man does not own her, he is married to her.

[ima_sinnic]

37. "WE"??

I'm starting to smell a rat here.
This case has drawn the right-wing propagandists out from under their rocks. I have never heard such HYPOCRISY in my life. Either marriage is "sacred" or it isn't.

[ldf]

63. i second that "we" crap.

have you been hearing the polls?

was it 82% that said that they would never want to be kept alive in terri's state.

and that is not a poll about terri, it is a poll about yourself, what would YOU want for yourself, IF you were in terri's condition.

this IS a winning argument for the dems. if we only have the guts to step up to the plate, that is.

[cornermouse]

48. Terri Schiavo's parents don't have the expertise to do any

such thing. And a few tries of cleaning all the tubes and getting a good look at the very large and very deep bedsores that she no doubt has, would probably send them running for the bathroom to vomit. This is 24 hours a day, 7 days a week care. They simply cannot do it.

[motherbell]

28. Disability Issue

This is also a disability issue.

If I were to take the feeding tube out of my daughter, it would be murder. She can not tell me if she wants to live or not. She is also on medicaid.

I have had ignorant people at a right wing forum say they don't want to support her with their tax dollars. But Terri is different because they think she is still being supported by the money from the court case.

This is very easy to turn on the repugs. I have asked them before if she was supported on medicaid or SSI if they would want them to continue to live.

I am sorry for Terri, I have a living will. I would not want to be in her position, but there is no living will in this case.

[ima_sinnic]

34. YOU have a living will but assume someone "without one"

must want her corpse to be kept alive like a circus freak show?
why do the vast majority of people always say, oh I wouldn't want to be kept alive by artificial means, especially when I'm basically already dead, but Terri Schiavo HAS TO BE TREATED LIKE A PET ROCK because really, there's "no way to tell" what she'd want. Hello? look inside yourself, deep inside, and you'll find what she, like you, me, and everybody except the clinically insane and death-obsessed would want.

[kbm8170]

70. I swear to all of you. . .

By the time they shop around to enough courts until they find one that "rules" in their favor, we will have no reason whatsoever to trust either our judicial system or our legislatures. This, to me, is a direct attack on our entire system of government, especially with the pandering to the religious right by stopping Congress to deal with something that has been heard over and over again in the courts.

By the time we are all done with this, the friggin' wingnuts will have Terri on a dam*ed van, touring the country with that insane Ten Commandments monument.

[Technowitch]

43. Actually, it's been amply stated the court case money ran out years ago

There's nothing left. 24/7 nursing care and life support costs insane amounts of money.

[w4rma]

36. I had thought that Dems should stay out of this but your plan is fantastic

That is what Democratic politicians should do. And they should do it before the Republicans do a twisted version.

[Technowitch]

38. Why is it that people who claim to believe so fervently in heaven...

...and an afterlife in the presence of Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit are so incredibly terrified of death? Wouldn't that existence be so much better than being unable to speak or interact with people in any meaningful fashion?

Is it that their faith is weak?

I'll say it again: If there is a heavenly afterlife, full of eternal bliss and perfection, in the presence of all our loved ones and God, why the desperation to cling to this limited, imperfect life for as long as humanly possible?

I mean, there are only two reasons I can think of for trying so desperately to continue these extraordinary measures to keep one person alive.

(And let's be clear here: A few generations ago, that poor woman would be long since dead, because we didn't even HAVE feeding tubes.)

One reason is that some (her parents mainly) are so very desperate to hang onto the last shreds of their daughter, they're willing to subject her to a permanent living hell. Terri's brain is halfway gone. If there's anything left of her in there, and by some accounts there ISN'T, but even assuming there is, that last fragment is such a tiny portion of a normal, healthy adult, one has to wonder what the point is, to go on living that kind of existence. In other words, they simply aren't willing to face up to the necessary grief and LET HER GO.

The other reason is as I posited above. These folks are so incredibly terrified of death, it's become self-evident they don't have a whole lot of faith in the heavenly ever-after. I mean, what's ten or a hundred years against an eternity in the spiritual presence of your loved ones, restored to perfection?

Seriously, grief and fear seem to be the only motivations among the sincere.

I won't even get into the cynical grandstanding on the part of the Repugs... For them, it's obvious they care nothing about this woman, not really. The same ones who would either force Terri's husband to keep her alive or else take her away from him are the SAME people who would deny Terri public-paid healthcare for the rest of her unfortunate vegetative life.

In other words, they'd love to force their decisions on the rest of us -- and make us responsible for carrying these orders out, too.

Thank the Goddess I -do- have a living will. People, if this isn't a wakeup call to the rest of you who don't want to be forced to stay alive, whatever the cost, I don't know what is. If you can't be bothered to visit an attorney or go to the Nolo Press website, at the very least, write it out and get it notarized. Such wouldn't be bulletproof, but it'd be better than nothing. If you think you can depend on a spouse, adult child, or parent to carry out your spoken wishes, you need only look at Terri's poor predicament.

For the record, I'm a "spiritual agnostic". I -think- there's an afterlife of some kind, but I'm also perfectly willing to admit I'm not sure and I certainly would not presume to even guess what form that afterlife might take. You'd think that under these circumstances, I'd hold onto life harder than anyone. But that's not so. I have a PVS (persistent vegetative state) clause in my living will, along with a whole lot of other things that basically say that when there's no hope of recovery, it's time to let me go.

-Technowitch

[ima_sinnic]

40. thank you for a voice of reason among the insane

--this thread is riddled with sanctimonious hypocrites who castigate Michael Schiavo for maintaining his sacred vows of marriage and would wish an eternity of purgatory on a poor brain-dead woman whose predicament has turned into a circus sideshow act.

I'll say it again for the umpteenth time, though: only those who WANT to be kept alive by artificial means, draining resources from the quite living, bringing grief and heartbreak to their family, causing untold hardship to their loved ones, should have to put it in writing. After all, WHO in their right mind WOULD want such a thing? It should go without saying--but even on this thread there are those who maintain that Terri's corpse should be kept "alive" because she didn't have a living will--it is as though they want to punish the poor woman and disrespect her vegetating body and pass judgment against her husband for her lack of foresight.

[Technowitch]

42. You're welcome.

I should also think it abundantly clear that if Michael Schiavo was the fiend people have been making him out to be, there'd be no question what he would've done.

Terri's parents want him to divorce their daughter, so they can make the decisions for her, and presumably to take over her care. He refused. Why? If he wanted to be free of the responsibility, as some have claimed, this was an incredibly easy out.

Then were those in just the last week or two who offered millions of dollars, if Michael would give up the right to make decisions on his brain-dead wife's behalf. He refused. So obviously, he can't be bribed, and thus it's not money.

What's left? Obviously, he's trying to follow his wife's last wishes, despite almost overwhelming opposition.

Now THAT takes courage and conviction.

[SmokingJacket]

39. Genius. This must happen. nt

[Vinca]

41. I posted something similar yesterday. This is the letter I've been

sending to Senators and some Members of Congress:

"Dear Senator – I watched the news throughout Friday and saw many members of the House and Senate opining about the state of Terri Schiavo and proposing a special session of Congress to discuss whether or not her feeding tube should be removed. Sympathetic as I am to Ms. Schiavo and her family, I can't help but wonder about those of us without health insurance who could not have afforded the feeding tube in the first place. The Senators and Representatives I heard often invoke the phrase "sanctity of life" or "right to life." Forty-five million uninsured Americans deserve the same consideration as unborn children and individuals unable to speak for themselves. My husband and I are self-employed residents of New Hampshire, both in our late 50's. Last year our health insurance premium increased by 39%, despite never having received payment on a claim from the insurance company, to more than $12,000 a year with a $4,500 deductible. $16,500 is about a quarter of our net income and that made it impossible for us to continue our coverage. Since becoming uninsured, I've talked to many other entrepreneurs and have found the vast majority can no longer afford health insurance coverage. It's very discouraging to be in this predicament after working hard our entire lives. Health care, like education, should be a right and not a privilege. We should all have access to Terri's care, should we need it. Please, please, please work to resolve this ever-growing problem. We are the richest nation on earth, but our access to health care is shameful. Sincerely,"

[wallock]

44. I agree... there are so many times where we could reframe

the issue but we don't. I think we are starting to get better at it though. The bill would need to have a better name though... like the 'If you vote against this bill you support Hitler' act. Hey, the Republicans do it all the time

[blondeatlast]

49. While I think it's a great idea, I have one reservation,

and it's a HUGE one. This woman has been exploited far too much already.

I hope the Dems can take some lessons from this and make it work, but please God leave the poor woman out of it.

[kerrygoddess]

51. Actually - Smith - Bingaman Amendment

The Smith Bingaman Amendment that passed the other day seeks to protect the Medicaid cuts.

The Smith-Bingaman Amendment passed today by a narrow margin, but it’s heartening to see some bipartisanship in a stacked leadership. The Smith-Bingaman Amendment strikes Bush’s proposal to cut $15 billion from Medicaid funding. The Smith-Bingaman Amendment was co-sponsored by John Kerry. In a statement today about the amendment, John Kerry said, “We won an important victory today for Americans who need a voice in Washington. In a bipartisan vote, the Senate stuck up for the poor children, pregnant women, seniors and people with disabilities who are served by Medicaid.” -

http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/default.asp?view=plink&id=572

[seventythree]

57. You are on to the real twist in the framing of the argument

Republicans who voted against the amendment wanted to throw Terri in the street -- remove her health care -- and it should be used against those republicans in the next election.

[meow2u3]

53. Reframe the Schiavo case

Bush and the Republicans in Congress are desperately trying to sell Americans on the idea that by removing Mrs. Schiavo's feeding tube and thus allowing her to die a natural death, is the legal and moral equivalent of euthanasia or murder. This is their excuse for saving a woman kept alive solely by machine.
It would be medical malpractice for a person suffering from gangrene to be prevented from having his or her leg amputated because the state decided that the leg is hooked up to a machine which is keeping it alive. Why isn't it malpractice to pull the plug on a patient who's all but dead, with only a machine keeping her alive?

I thought real pro-lifers respected life from conception to natural death. I never before realized that the right to life is a right to life at all costs, including using extreme methods to prevent a natural death. </sarcasm off>

Let nature take its course. Don't interfere with Mother Nature.

[manxkat]

54. no, the Schiavo case reveals that the Repukenicans

just need to deflect the country from the important issues, as usual.

[cyclezealot]

56. you do not need to worry about cutting somewhere else to implement

It is far more cost efficent than the mess we already have..Implementing this program will save our country tons of cash..
Insurance companies chewing up 35% for administration and advertisment . How can it but not save money. Plus the farical federal band aids supposedly to remedy our systems short comings.

[ldf]

59. have you even been paying attention?

yeah, lets jump on the bandwagon and make sure EVERYONE who is in an irreversible vegetative state be hooked up, linked up, WHATEVER you want to call it, so that the shell of the body NEVER takes a last breath.

yea, that is EXACTLY what the democrats want to stand for.

give me a fucking break.

have you read absolutely NOTHING but the republican's talking points? why don't you try reading what the DOCTORS say? you know, the ones who are the most knowledgeable about this?

the democrats needs to take a stand. we would have the huge support of the majority of the senior community, who may be facing something similar.

read my fingers! you will NEVER make me go through what terri has been put through. her family should be prosecuted for wanton abuse.

spew your pack of prepackaged lies all you want. it's not going to change the truth.

[napi21]

64. Taxpayer $$ has not paid for Terri's care...so far.

I listened to her husbands atty this morning. The $1 million medical case settlement has been paying for her care. There is only about $50,000 remaining in that fund, and her care is costing $80,000 a year. You may be right in the future, but not so far.

[respectfully]

65. can Schiavo help period

I'm wondering whether the 'err on the side of life' GOP position can be used to help get medical treatment for deathly ill people where the insurance companies are denying treatment as experimental or too costly?

If the Congress and President (and God forbid, Supreme Court) all come down on that side, then others should sue for equal treatment and protection under law.

Many people denied treatment can move, talk, and feed themselves. Why shouldn't they, too, have the presumption of 'err on the side of life'.

[Coastie for Truth]

66. We HAVE to got to get out in front with a massive Terri's Law

1. Amend the Bankruptcy Code to wipe out Medical debts - Frist and his brothers are rich enough.

a. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15689369
-Himmelstein, Thomas, Warren, Woolhandler, MarketWatch: Illness And Injury As Contributors To Bankruptcy.
Health Aff (Millwood). 2005 Feb 2

b. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15184338
Woolhandler and Himmelstein, The high costs of for-profit care. CMAJ. 2004 Jun 8;170(12):1814-5

2. Single payer, universal health care for all Americans.

a. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15083098
Himmelstein and Woolhandler. National health insurance: falling expectations and the safety net. Med Care. 2004 May;42(5):403-5.

b.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14769625
McCormick, Himmelstein, Woolhandler, and Bor, Single-payer national health insurance. Physicians' views. Arch Intern Med. 2004 Feb 9;164(3):300-4

and many, many more peer reviewed studies.

Let's turn this around and recapture it as our issue - The New Deal - Fair Deal - Square Deal - Great Issue of the Twenty First Century. The GOP base is not "pro-life" - it is a "pro-birth" of hypocrites who take the Lord's name in vain -- our Progressive base is the real "pro-life" community.

And I would like to see Howard Dean and Judy Steinberg, and Sidney Wolfe --- and Hillary Clinton and Barbara Boxer, and Harry Reid run with this. This is a touch down issue.

[boilerbabe]

69. Am not sure here.

Are you for keeping people on life support when maybe it's a little too late or what is the issue here? I am really confused. Do you want to keep someone on life support that maybe should not be? Or do you want to forward life insurance? I am all for life insurance, but did ANYONE take into consideration what was on the original person's mind here?I am a little confused, please do clarify...would appreciate the reply..

[laylah]

71. I, personally,

find the fact that the right wing is using this poor woman's situation to further their political agendas, disgusting. Therefore, I think that should we jump on the bandwagon, to further OUR agenda, would be just as reprehensible. Just my 2 cents.

Jenn

[jvdassam]

72. Repugs Use Vegetative Woman For Political Gain

I agree with you. I think the best response is to point out that the Reps are taking advantage of this poor family's situation in order to advance their own political agenda, and leave it at that. There is no limit to the depths they will go in order to grab some publicity and grovel for the dangerous religious right. If the poor Schiavo family is not immune from Congressional meddling, no one is. They are turning us into vegetables, force feeding us their Homeland Security, unethical wars and uncaring cuts. Thanks to the Republicans, we are all Terry Schiavo.

[leftofthedial]

75. they would dodge (or ignore) the health care connection

and celebrate a right to life "victory"

this isn't remotely about rational pursuit of wise policy; it is pure political grandstanding for the rabid religiously insane wing of their base. They won't do anything substantive on any of their appeal-to-the-wack-job issues (gay marriage, abortion rights), so they latch on to this purely meaningless (except to Terry Shiavo's parents) matter, pump it up into some kind of symbol and claim they are committed to "life."

I wish this poor woman had gone away with her eyes closed.

The health care gambit is a logical idea, but without more votes in Congress, it will be swept under the rug.

[chelsea0011]

76. "....about defending life" Scotty McClellan

You would think tens of thousands dead in Iraq over a lie would be about defending life also.

this is a stone cold loser of an issue for Dems. That is why they are compromising with the state-in-your-lives repukes. And who were the family members on Larry King raising the idea that the husband might be responsible for her coma. If only they could get a speech therapist involved she may be able to say what actually happened to her. That's what the family members are saying now. WoW!!!!!!!!

[thethinker]

78. Democrats need to RE-FRAME this issue

To argue "right to die" (which is what you people are arguing) is useless. The Democrats need to be arguing "right to health care" or "right to live".

There is a similar case right now in Texas which is on TV every night. The hospital wants to disconnect a man. His wife wants to keep him alive. The court has ruled that she can keep him alive if she can find another hospital to take him. Guess what - no other hospital, so far, will take him. This is in Houston, which is the fourth largest city in the country. The hospitals won't take him because they want to be sure they will get paid. This all boils down to money.

People have a basic human right to health care through their tax dollar. Every civilized country except South Africa and America provide health care for their citizens.

This is a passionate issue and the Democrats need to get off their duffs and turn this one around on the Republicans. People are dying all over America because they can't afford health care and don't seek health care until it is too late.

What kind of a country is this that allows it's citizens to have these problems? Why aren't the Democrats screaming about it?

The Democrats need to get organized and develop some talking points around passionate issues like this.

[kcass1954]

79. This is no longer a disability issue, or a right-to-die issue.

The repugs have turned it into something else entirely - the government trying to invervene in family matters. The courts have ruled repeatedly that Michael Schiavo has the right to determine his wife's future. Her parents are pissed, and they've been "court shopping" to try to get their way. When that didn't work, they whined enough to get Jebbie's attention. The crew in Tallahassee passed "Terry's Law" to try to keep her alive, and the Florida Supreme Court struck it down, ruling that they were trying to circumvent the judicial process.

Now we have Dr. Bill the cat killer trying to do the very same thing. Oh yeah, this is the man I want giving me "ethical" advice. And of course the repugs are trying to use this to their full advantage.

We need to back completely away from choosing sides in this issue. Our statement should be that we don't think Congress should be passing laws that are intended to to circumvent the decisions of our courts. That's why there are three separate and distinct branches of the federal government.

I don't care what Michael Schiavo decides to do. It's his decision to make, and he should be left alone!

[stevebreeze]

80. GOP grandstanding

What is amazing to me is the rapidity with which congress has acted, supposedly on the behalf of one person at the edge of death. Tens if thousands died last year are dieing this year and will die next year, due to lack of health care. Congress has done nothing with which to address the problems of the uninsured. They do not die in front of national TV cameras. They die slow anonymous deaths. They die from lack of high blood pressure medication, drugs and treatment for diabetes, form having to place their health care low on the list of priorities just because they can't afford it. We need single payer national health care and we need it now.

[dzika]

81. Meet the Press: Republicans use Schiavo for political gain

March 20, 2005

Video - Meet the Press: Republicans use Schiavo for political gain - 3/20

Video in Real Media format (3 minutes)

[iam]

82. You are NOT dumb

The democratic leadership is clueless and spineless. That's why I quit the Dem party but fight for the same values. They are just plain incompetent in politics.