Would you vote for a pro-Second Amendment Democrat in 2008?

[derby378]

Poll question: Would you vote for a pro-Second Amendment Democrat in 2008?

Scenario: Candidate supports Federal funds for stem cell research, universal health care, overhaul of science education in schools, Roe vs. Wade, gay civil unions (if not marriage), etc. The one thing she will not do is reauthorize a Federal ban on "assault weapons." Would you vote for her?

[7th_Sephiroth]

1. Gun-phobe

[Fenris]

2. Sure.

[bluestateguy]

3. I'd be proud to. I would campaign for that candidate

I want the Democratic Party to be the pro-gun party, to incorporate gun rights under the rubric of our historic committments to civil rights and civil liberties. Gun rights are liberal values.

[Pawel K]

42. Exactly

[murdoch]

48. As do I

[zulchzulu]

4. You mean Feingold?

He voted against stopping the assault weapons ban.

[flpoljunkie]

30. Do you know his rationale for this vote?

[sendero]

5. The gun issue...

... is nothing but a loser for Dems. If the idea of "gun control" (beyond things most people agree with, background checks, registration, short waiting periods for handguns) had any possibility of accomplishing anything positive, there might be a point.

As it is, guns are out there, they are everywhere, criminals don't give a shit about your stupid laws, and few folks have not figured this out.

The idea out there is that only right wingers have guns. I'm living proof of how nutty that notion is. And frankly, I wish a lot more progressives would learn about guns, procure guns, and be trained in their proper use. Someday, god forbid, you might need one.

Dems should say unequivocally that they believe in the right of law-abiding Americans to own guns.

[oneold1-4u]

14. Any "right" is a responsibility

A gun might be responsible for a human death but it could be for as many purposeful reasons as not. Learning all there is to know about weapons of any kind helps a person to understand the best use of it! We, as citizens have the right to vote, but the responsible are in the minority! Irresponsible is what makes guns scary!

[Poppyseedman]

23. With all due respect

you don't what you are talking about when it you claim that the responsible are in the minority.

Almost ALL gun owners that carry or use for legal protection or sports are very responsible when it comes to owning, using and learning about their weapon of choice.

There are the small percent that are morons that think guns are like toys and leave them around for any bozo or kid to handle. Of course owners of a gun who's purpose is to commit criminal acts are by nature irresponsible, not because they own a gun, but because they are criminals.

Educate yourself...........

[sendero]

28. Not only that...

.... but remember, there are laws against leaving a weapon where it can be accessed by a child. So much for laws.

[Pawel K]

43. There are laws where you can't comit armed robbery, kill, etc...

banning guns won't make those laws any more effective.

[blackcat77]

6. I support the entire bill of rights. nt

[Syrinx]

13. you took the words right out of my mouth. n/t

[conflictgirl]

20. Do you believe the 2nd amendment includes access to assault weapons? nt

nt

[derby378]

21. They are "arms," so I would have to say "Yes"

Springfield M1, Colt AR-15, etc. - remember, they're all semi-auto, just like many hunting rifles.

I don't believe in hunting ducks with an AK-47, though. Anyone who tries to use that justification, IMHO, is an idiot. And I have heard one Republican congressman make that argument.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[brainshrub]

7. Sure thing!

It doen't even make the top-ten list.

I support the right of all Americans to own guns.

[derby378]

8. I have long maintained...

...that the Democrat position on gun control should emphasize training of potential and novice gun owners in terms of gun safety, maintenance, and storage. We have way too many accidental shooting deaths where some poor kid found his father's revolver and thought it was a new toy. Prevention should be our goal, and prevention means turning gun owners into educated gun owners.

If we are to be the "well-regulated Militia" spoken of in the Second Amendment, we must act like one.

[AntiCoup2K4]

9. I would, but....

...Howard Dean said he wasn't running in 2008 :(

[davidinalameda]

10. the 2nd Amendment isn't a problem for me

since I'm probably not going to vote for a Democrat in 2008 anyway

[BillZBubb]

11. Bullshit question!

Give me a break. Every Democrat is pro-Second Amendment.

The issue is which interpretation to believe: The one that conveniently omits the qualifying phrase with "well regulated militia", or the one that follows Madison's original intent.

[derby378]

12. See Post #8 (n/t)

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BillZBubb]

46. That's not true.

The 1790 definition of a "Well-Regulated Militia" was pretty much what it is today. It didn't mean all able bodied males. It meant those ORGANIZED for the common defense.

The phrase "Keep and Bear Arms" was, in the late 1700's, a PURELY MILITARY PHRASE. It had no context for personal, private possession of firearms. And that is exactly what the ratifyers had in mind as Madison's first draft of the Second Amendment makes abundantly clear.

[Coastie for Truth]

15. YOU BETCHA

I do not trust this bizarro coalition of the "old, old, old money" and the "Rapture Right" - it is something predicted by Tom Franks, What's the Matter with Kansas? How Conservatives Won the Heart of America and detailed by Margaret Atwood, The Handmaid's Tale : A Novel, or worse.

Where can this bizarro coalition take us - have already taken us into Iraq, peoples' bedrooms, and Terri Schiavo's hospice room, and having tried to "piratize" Social Security? They could use a heretical interpretation of Scripture to deny us the best medical care.

As, an example, take "stem cell research" (which is near and dear my heart - or should I localize it and say "Near and dear to my pancreas").

Very simply - equating "stem cell research" to "abortion" is a stretched, slippery slope, of Scriptural interpretation (or mis-interpretation) by the Pseudo-Christian heretics and blasphemers. My faith permits - and even encourages - "stem cell research" as steps to a life saving measure for lives in being.

Therefore, imposing another faith on me, a faith that has specific doctrines contrary to the specific doctrines of my faith, is a clearly UNconstitutional "law respecting an establishment of religion" and equally clearly denies me my constitutionally protected right of freedom from any laws "prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Of course, very illiberally or non-liberally, the ultimate guarantor from a "law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" is in the Second Amendment "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

By the way - as a member of DHS's FEMA "Citizens Corps" (http://www.citizencorps.gov/), DHS's FEMA - ARRL's Radio Amateur Citizens Emergency Service "RACES" (http://www.races.net/) and a Non-GO emergency response volunteer group - I am a member of the "well regulated militia" - "one who puts himself in harms way for the good his community without compensation."

Earned with pride -- Worn with pride:
<><>

[Hippo_Tron]

16. Gun control is a mixed bag for me

I've pretty much a socially libertarian and thus I am definately inclined to support somebody's right to own a gun. This is a legitimate issue for voters to be concerned about and a legitimate issue in which I could easily see somebody choosing a Republican over a Democrat on.

On the other hand, gun dealers need to be regulated better so that criminals don't get their hands on guns.

[Ian David]

17. The Reuthgnicans have a huge lead on us in the arms race

[calimary]

26. ...which makes me wonder if perhaps Democrats ought to start

embracing gun ownership more vigorously. I'd hate to see a situation in which OUR side is the one that isn't armed - when the wackos and fundies and dittoheads and freepers are all armed to the teeth. It wasn't a "leftie" who took out the Oklahoma City building, nor are there any "lefties" attacking family planning clinics. Frankly, the way things have gone in our country, I've begun to rethink my stand on the gun issue (used to be rabidly AGAINST guns, just all across the board, in the name of JFK, RFK, MLK, and John Lennon). These are INCREASINGLY frightening times.

[Ian David]

51. Arming the Left: Is the time now? --by Charles Southwell

Arming the Left: Is the time now? --by Charles Southwell*

I hope you didn't open this page to read what we already know: that this is the most rightwing government we have ever had in the US, even far right of Bush I, that our rights are being eroded daily, and that our democratic process is all but gone, if it isn't already gone.

I hope you came here to read about tactics for action that will finally have some consequence. I hope you agree that our protests, petitions, letters, and on and on, have been utterly ignored. The fascistas that run our country laugh at us. They believe they can do anything and that we haven't got the guts to revolt, but only to wage a war of words. I have seen the Bush cavalcades, as they drive away, his aids sneering and jeering and laughing and mocking our protests. They think we are a JOKE. Tens of millions of Americans protested the war, but because we posed no REAL THREAT to their power, we were UTTERLY IGNORED.

As long as we pose no REAL threat to the powers-that-be, to what is shaping up into a dictatorship, we will continue to be ignored. Right now, we are ignored because we present no organized power to fight this onslaught of anti-democratic, totalitarian government that we are up against.

It will take time, but it's time to get more left-leaning liberals and outright leftists to at least POSE a threat, by getting organized and getting ARMED. It's time to get well past this liberal phobia and taboo about weapons and force. After all, our liberalism was won with a REVOLUTIONARY WAR! they used real guns in that war. The French Revolution was also a WAR and they used real weapons there too.

More:
http://www.legitgov.org/essay_southwell_arming_the_left_is_the_time_now_102203.html

[bling bling]

18. I've said it here somewhere before,

but TAKING AWAY constitutional rights from Americans should not be a policy of either major political party, IMO.

[NAO]

19. What is my other option? To vote for the Republican

who will also not reauthorize the ban, but will oppose stem cell research, oppose universal health care, support private vouchers and kr'ea-ay-shun science, and ban unnatural affections?

People need to be realistic and vote for the ticket that comes closest to their overall values, and not get hung up on any single issue.

[Crunchy Frog]

22. Yes. I'm not a gun person myself, don't particularly like them,

but they are not one of my core issues the way reproductive freedom is.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Q]

24. It's a very strange thing to see these threads about the 2nd amendment...

...and few if any about the rest of the Bill of Rights...specifically the first amendment.

There is no longer a separation between church and state. The Free Press is dead. 'Free Speech Zones', homeland security and Bush Brownshirts have made it impossible to 'peaceably assemble' or 'petition the Government for a redress of grievances'.

Yet...Democrats are fretting over the 'gun issue'? Weird priorities.

[calimary]

27. Actually, it's not so terribly strange - mainly because there are

situations in which THIS issue is the one stumbling block that keeps our side from gaining more votes. The knuckle-dragger "them-damned-liburls-gonna-take-mah-guns-away" mentality can be a real campaign killer. I myself have heard some otherwise reasonable people voice the complaint that they agree with a LOT of what Democrats believe - except on guns.

FURTHERMORE... there's another thread here about some previously solid red Western states starting to turn blue (I'll go find it in a minute). It references an LA Times editorial describing so-called "adventure sports" issues starting to grab more attention, meaning environmentalism is gaining ground again. Hunters need nice, wide-open, unspoiled wilderness areas (with clean air, clean water, quiet forests with no buzz saws or off-roaders or dirt-bikers kicking up dust and making noise and wrecking habitats, and many many trees) for their sport. They are, amazingly enough, an untapped and EXTREMELY valuable asset to our side. And they should be EMBRACED. Divid and conquer, dontcha know?

on edit - here's the link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1743009

[liberal N proud]

25. Un-like the fundamentalist Repukes, I never vote on one issue! NEVER!

It really pisses me off when people continuously make their choice when voting on ONE issue.
Be it Guns, abortion, gays or what ever, a candidate can not be framed by one issue alone, this country is too big for that and the public has forgotten that.
The repukes have done a good job of framing elections on one issue The Democrats need to change that and re-educate the voters.

[brooklynite]

29. This is a poorly worded question...

Any candidate should support the Second Amendment, along with the First, Third, Seventh and every other part of the Constitution. What I assume assume you really wanted to ask was: Would you vote for a pro-gun ownership Democrat?. The two are not necessarily the same thing.

[liberalpress]

31. I would think..

... a candidate for President would support all of the amendments, not just some of them as is the case with the current administration.

[imenja]

32. aren't they all?

They don't discuss gun control in elections. They did nothing to stop the expiration of the assault weapons ban. They've been cowed into submission on this point, that many others.

[ClassWarrior]

33. Would you vote for an unknown generic candidate based on...

...a bunch of made-up issue positions? I wouldn't. Therefore your question is moot.

Besides, it's about VALUES, not issues.

NGU.

[Boo Boo]

37. I voted "definitely," but I have to say

that there is a difference between support of the 2nd Amendment and the ban on assault weapons. I'd like to see assault weapons restricted to military use entirely. I do have a problem, however, with the idea that The People(tm) should be disarmed in this regard, while law enforcement is becoming increasingly militarized. Just isn't healthy. No assault weapons period.

My man Wes Clark is certainly a supporter of 2nd amendment rights, and owns quite a few guns himself, but he also supports the assault weapons ban. He views them as military weapons. "If you want to play with assault weapons, join the Army, we have 'em."

He also supports that other stuff, BTW.

[derby378]

41. My bone of contention is, however...

...that what Wes Clark and others call "assault weapons" are actually semi-automatic firearms that aren't too far removed from popular hunting rifles that are themselves semi-auto.

Having said that, I know that they should be handled with the greatest care. I think anyone who wants to buy one should take a gun safety class - a comprehensive one, as in: you hold the weapon, you shoot it at a firing range, here's what the projectile is capable of penetrating, and here's a portfolio of color photographs showing what that projectile fired from your desired weapon can do to a human body, and if you still think you can handle it after your class is complete, hand over your payment and we'll get you started on the paperwork. In a nutshell, that's what I'd like to see Democratic concepts of gun control focus on.

[krypto9t]

39. How did Dems get labled as anti-2nd amendment?

I'm against anyone who wants to change or has a distorted view of any part of the Constitution or Bill of Rights. The writers pretty much have everything covered.

[formernaderite]

40. How?....geez...

where do you live? I live in MD, and have heard from uninformed party people that they'd love to see no gun ownership in MD...just like the district has. Nevermind that the laws in the district have no impact, except to disarm law abiding people. Unfortunately there are many anti-gunners in our party.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leetrisck]

45. Concealed carry = Gun Control

NRA always supports concealed carry - when you have concealed carry, the gun must be registered therefore everyone knows you have a gun. None of anybody's business. Feel that concealed carry is nothing more than gun registration and gun control. Doesn't uphold the 2nd Amendment.

[ChiciB1]

47. Even Though This Will Sound Like "Red-State" Rhetoric

I simply can't "do guns! Even when my son was a little boy, a long time ago, I never bought the holster set for him!

Perhaps it would be "politically beneficial" to ANY candidate, it's not an option for me. Just as Bill Nelson and his ties to the Religious RADICAL Right make my stomach turn!

Don't get me wrong, I have very strong "spiritual" beliefs, but pushing Religion and Guns are unacceptable to me! It only gives them more AMMO!

[ComerPerro]

49. Definately. And I would encourge my RW gun toting family to vote for them

as well. That seemed to be the biggest wedge in 2000.

[SaveElmer]

50. It's not the amendment that's the problem...

It's the way it is being used, and abused by the gun-fundies that is the problem!

[northernsoul]

52. we need to let gun control be a state / local issue

It's over as a matter of national policy. What makes sense in NYC & LA doesn't necessarily make sense for Idaho. The sooner we make that loud and clear, the sooner the mountain west turns blue.

[Lori Price CLG]

53. Of course! Why should the Reichwing have all the guns???

The Left needs them for American Revolution #2, <g>.

Lori Price

[LdyGuique]

54. Damn straight, skippy!

As a minority group, it is in our best interests to be well-armed for the troubled times coming. Because, the theocracy will be coming for US!

[ken-in-seattle]

55. Gun control is nuts in reality.

In NC the second day of drivers ed was devoted to how to act when you get stopped with your gun. The only places you could not carry a gun in a hip holster was a bank and a convenience store.

Sure those days are gone but that is one of the reasons the damn state is seriously RED now.

I lived in Boston for 5 years and NYC for 2 (70's)and the only people I knew that owned guns were burglers, coke dealers and loansharks. No amout of legislation is gonna effect whether they own a gun or not.

Regulate bullets all ya want :) Add a tax the increases geometricly as the caliber and FPS goes up and you will see far less lethal guns in the wrong hands.

I have been shot with a 22 short and while a head shot could have killed me the a 45 or a 9mil would have given me a far greater chance of dirtnap.

I have not owned a gun in 30 years and don't feel the need to but I support the rights of those who do.

[CBHagman]

56. I don't define that as "pro-Second Amendment."

The Second Amendment refers to a "well-regulated militia," not some horse's ass in my neighborhood who just HAS to have an assault rifle and use it on his neighbor when they get into an argument. Get into definitions of "militia" and "well-regulated," and then we'll talk.

[cestpaspossible]

57. What a totally meaningless question.

Would you vote for a pro-Fourth Amendment Democrat?

What about a pro-Sixth Amendment Democrat?

Or, maybe just someone who is in favor of the whole Constitution and all it's amendments?

:eyes:

[Zhade]

58. Considering the AWB was a friggin' JOKE, of course I would.

The AWB did just about ZERO for gun crime. This is a no-brainer.

In fact, I wish we HAD a candidate like that, one who wasn't a corporate whore and stood for what you listed. It would be nice.

Two caveats, though: the "overhaul of science" has to mean "putting one's foot down on not teaching bullshit like 'Creation Science' as actual science", and civil unions must contain the 1,000+ rights straight married couples have.

[slackmaster]

59. I prefer the term "pro-choice on guns"

Discussions about the Second Amendment as a basis for the right to keep and bear arms usually degrade into a "yes it is"/"no it isn't" discussion with nobody's mind being changed.

I see the right to keep and bear arms as a subset of the right to generally own, say, and do as we please as long as we do not cause harm to anyone. As a gun owner and collector, I resent it when anyone tries to create a nexus between the curios and relics in my gun safe, and violent crime.