What I never want to hear again...

[prodigal_green]

I am so sick of the caveat that every liberal feels he/she has to make when commenting on the rapture right, it usually goes something like this:

"I'm not talking about ALL Christians, just the one's who blindly support Bush," etc. etc.

Why do liberal commentators need to do this? And why do non-radical-right-wing Christians feel the need to whine about it when anyone points out the hypocricy of radical, right-wing Christians without that disclaimer? It is a waste of time.

I know this administration has hacked the English language into an unrecognizable series of grunts and slaps, but the adjectives RADICAL and RIGHT-WING should be enough to distinguish those people from the mainstream of American Christians. Enough mewling already. They, radical, right-wing Christians, are dangerous to our American way of life. We need to be upfront and forceful about our opposition to them.

Flame away...

Edited for punctuation

Another edit:

There is a term in linguistics: "ex-nominated" which describes the category that doesn't get modified. For example (maybe not so much anymore, and maybe not so much by those of us on the left) you often hear the the word "woman" or "female" attached to a traditionally male career, such as "female engineer", or "female president" because the "male engineer" or "male president" is ex-nominated--it is unneccessary to say "male" because that is the assumed. By using the words radical and right-wing it automatically assumes that the average Christian is neither of those things.

The right understands this idea. Maybe we call it "framing" now...

[damntexdem]

1. Come the Rapture:

GOOD RIDDANCE!

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

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[tkmorris]

5. Oh man

Here we go......

[youthere]

19. I'm ready...

:popcorn:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

12. Amen to that

But, I'm personally put off by followers of any allegedly organized religion.

I really don't understand whatever it is they have going on in their heads.

These are the people who scoff and disavow the idea that life forms might exist somewhere else out there in our solar system.

Yet they deeply and devoutly believe that some old guy up in the sky not only can see everything they do, but, in fact, has control over it. And he'll also determine what happens to them in an afterlife that supposedly exists.

I really don't understand. But, I have the clear sense I'm not missing anything, either.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

You Say "Amen" to "Fuck the Christians, Fuck Them All"?

That's weak. I've liked some of your past posts, but I just totally lost respect for you.

DTH

[OldLeftieLawyer]

21. Gee

And I was so counting on your respect to get me through this life..........

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

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[DoveTurnedHawk]

30. Yeah Right

You just said "Amen" to a guy who is rank in Christian-bashing odor, and you made comments that were pretty disparaging and dismissive of a whole group of people.

You ought to learn how to read your own posts. In context would be even better.

DTH

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

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[DoveTurnedHawk]

40. My Sense of Humor and My Life Are Great

Smug satisfaction is my general state of being, in fact.

I just don't happen to find your offensive comments -- not to mention your weak, after-the-fact, backpeddling attempts at spin and deflection -- to be particularly humorous.

DTH

[OldLeftieLawyer]

46. Who cares about your life?

You protest far too much, and, frankly, your life and its condition mean nothing to me.

But, when I get one like you on the hook - and I own you, in case you hadn't noticed - I really do laugh myself into a state of bliss.

It's a good thing freedom of speech and people with ideas different from yours don't impinge on that great life of yours.

I own you.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

47. Keep Dreaming

Spin, spin, spin, little top. And your declarations of victory coupled with the weak personal attacks are really cute, in a pathetic sort of way.

DTH

[OldLeftieLawyer]

48. Can't help answering, can you?

I own you.

And your intolerance is shameful.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[DoveTurnedHawk]

56. Ditto

I love its faux outrage on your subthread, too. :evilgrin:

DTH

[OldLeftieLawyer]

66. Dear heart,

I'll give you this, because you so obviously lack it:

If you want to challenge someone's ideas and/or opinions, by all means, do so; but, if you choose to make it personal - to wit, you no longer 'respect' me because of what my opinions are on a specific subject - you will always come away the poorer for it, because when you take it down to that level, you are betraying your own truth: that you have no substantive challenge to my beliefs.

As well you should not. My beliefs, such as they are, are mine, and if you don't like them, that's fine. You may question them, but you will not change them.

Attempting in such an impotent way - it's a message board, after all - to insult me is simply a cautionary tale about people who call names.

[LittleClarkie]

67. Perhaps, as opposed to not having an answer

he was just stating a truth. He had respect for your views as expressed on their board. Now, less so. That may mean nothing to you. That's up to you to decide. But to assume he says this because he has no rebuttal does not necessarily.

BTW, "My beliefs, such as they are, are mine, and if you don't like them, that's fine."

Well said. Ditto.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

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[LittleClarkie]

70. Ditto

Likewise, I'm sure.

Oh, let's talk intolerance, shall we?

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

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[LittleClarkie]

75. Intolerance of what exactly

You've said that a couple of times now. Intolerance of what? Intolerance of someone who says "Amen" to "Fuck all Christians"? Intolerance of lawyers? Of women?

What ARE you talking about exactly?

[LittleClarkie]

34. Let's see

Someone said

"Fuck the Christians"

I'd call that bashing.

You said

"Amen"

That's, if not bashing, then at least support of the bash.

I think his, and my, reading comprehension is pretty good actually.

You're usually a pretty reasonable guy. As such, I would assume you were also tolerant. Am I wrong?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

41. "GUY"?

Your assumptions as to my gender, and your reading things that aren't there into words I write here, are breathtaking.

If it's important to you that you perceive what I wrote as bashing, then go with god, kid. Just so long as you're comfortable.

But - and here's a news flash for you in this year of someone's lord 2005:

Women are lawyers, too.

[LittleClarkie]

49. Then put your freakin' gender in your profile

Or I'll refer to you as "IT" next time.

Because, you know, it's so darned easy to see gender on the internets.

For lack of evidence, the fallback gender is "he"

If you don't want people reading into what you say as bashing then don't say "AMEN" to a basher.

I agree with the OP. I do not agree with the rampant bigotry of saying "fuck all Christians." If you feel differently, so be it. But you WILL be called on it.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

50. What difference does it make?

Since when do opinions and ideas have gender?

Snap out of it.

I have no interest in your gender, and, frankly, your scolding words - naw, no interest in them, either.

You just embarrassed yourself. Wanna keep going?

[LittleClarkie]

54. How

exactly.

What are you, an opinion on legs. If I refer to you, unless I want to refer to OldLeftyLawyer all the time, I need a personal pronoun. I have my choice of two. In the absense of evidence I picked the wrong one. So sue me, lawyer.

So if you're not interested in the ideas and thoughts of those who disagree with you, why the flying fuck are you here?

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

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[LittleClarkie]

71. I hear woman will soon have access to the internets, as well.

Excuse me, I have to go take my shoes off and get pregnant now.

But you know, if I'm going to be replying to one of your posts, I will be personally addressing you. Not the mouse in my pocket. You. So in that sense I suppose it's personal.

If you don't identify yourself as gender female, you will be mistaken for gender male every once in a while.

With a name like LittleClarkie, I do too on occasion, though I think I have it in my profile. Do I pitch a fit? No. At most, I just point out there's no stem on the apple and move on.

[Name removed]

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[personman]

59. "I'm not a Christian basher, but fuck all the christians"

[LittleClarkie]

76. I'm not prejudiced. But dem darkies should know their place.

Doesn't quite work, does it?

[blondeatlast]

60. So (to be a bit more civil than you were) to hell with me, who has

been on the front lines of LW politics for THIRTY years?

I marched in support of Roe v. Wade, dammit. I helped write city law dealing with domestic violence.

Go ahead, dismiss me if you want. But I'm a Democrat to stay.

Deal with it.

[Joey Liberal]

28. Chill Out

None of you Christian bashers would have the guts to say any of this nonsense if you weren't hiding behind an anonymous computer screen.
-------
What makes you think I would be afraid to tell this to a "Christian" in person????

[DoveTurnedHawk]

32. Because Few People Are That Misanthropic

But hey, if you want to congratulate yourself on that and beat your chest about it, feel free.

I'm still not buying, however.

DTH

[personman]

I hope noone makes the mistake...

of confusing you with a REAL liberal. You might want to take that out of your name.

[blondeatlast]

62. Self-delete. Not woth my effort, really. nt

[Name removed]

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[LittleClarkie]

14. You know the rules

Not until we're married.

You know... free milk... cow... that sort of thing.

BTW, YOU'RE LOOKING AT ONE RIGHT NOW. G'HEAD. SAY IT AGAIN. I DARE YOU. I DOUBLE DOG DARE YOU. And then you can explain what I've done. Go ahead. Say "Fuck you, Erica" then explain to me what I did that I deserve that.

Or, on the other hand, you can throw away that broad brush of yours and be a reasonable human being. Up to you.

[personman]

20. It's nice to see...

that intolerant moronism isn't limited to the right.

[prodigal_green]

27. Ummm

that really wasn't what I was saying there.

[LittleClarkie]

44. I know

I got it. But I think your original intent got hyjacked.

[Name removed]

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[liberalhistorian]

13. Excuse me, but I happen to be

a Christian AND a liberal (they are NOT mutually exclusive), and I am about as far from the fundie RW types as you can imagine, as are my fellow liberal Christians. Many of us have marched at anti-war rallies, demonstrated against the Iraqi war and many other government policies, dedicated our lives in support of the forgotten, the sick, the poor, the voiceless and powerless, fed the hungry, housed the homeless, worked for social justice and peace causes, are fighting for fair and equal access to health care regardless of financial status, work to put liberal politicians in office, and are busy comforting the afflicted and afflicting the comfortable. For you to paint us all with the same brush is just plain WRONG. It's wrong when the other side does it and it's wrong when you do it.

We are not the ones trying to force our religious beliefs down society's throats whether they want it or not, we are not the ones spreading hate and encouraging people to be hateful, mean-spirited bigots, we are not the ones fomenting a holy jihad against gays, we are not the one cutting all aid to children, minorities, the elderly, the sick, etc., we are not the ones demanding that politicians vote our way or else, and we are not the ones trying to turn this country into a theocratic police state based on our own twisted, distorted version of Christianity.

We ARE the ones fighting against such so-called "Christians" and I find it hard to believe that there are those on this allegedly tolerant and progressive and open-minded board who would even consider making such statements as you did. You owe all of us liberal Christians fighting for the same things you are and AGAINST the fundie right-wing theocratic zealots an apology.

[LittleClarkie]

18. Well, there would go 75% of the Kerry-voting Lutherans in my church

think you can afford the lost votes, dearie?

They ain't all on the Republican side.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

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[DoveTurnedHawk]

4. Stupid, Pointless, Divisive Thread -- I Dare You to Generalize That Way

About blacks, gays, Jews, the homeless, the poor, the disabled, or any other group.

So how is it somehow OK to generalize that way about Christians?

Ridiculous.

DTH

[Singular73]

6. Or muslims for that matter....

Yeah, chill the fuck out on the Christian bashing...the radical right is something different than main-stream Christianity (on a global scale...American fundementalism is a beast of the North American continent, nothing more..)

[prodigal_green]

7. You totally missed the point,

which is my point:

Radical, right-wing Christians. By definition, these people are anti-democratic, anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-semitic, probably anti-black and usually don't give a crap about the homeless or disabled.

I would definitely generalize about any fringe element of that list you provide if they were trying to take away my rights because their particular ideology tells them they are chosen by God to oppress me.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

10. Well Now That You've Edited

What I took from your original post was that you didn't want to bother slapping any disclaimers on it at all, which would be a huge generalization and a disservice to Christians.

I agree with you, radical and right-wing are probably sufficient in terms of the disclaimers.

DTH

[Singular73]

15. I didnt miss your point

I was talking to the "Fuck all Christians" guy...

[prodigal_green]

25. oops, sorry

yeah, I agree with you on that, he/she was the one who missed the point.

[Singular73]

63. For Gods sakes people, this is EXACTLY what they want

They TRIED to create an opposition to Christianity out of thin air(Fristianity Sunday), and some of you people comply, and are getting played so hard, they should charge an admissions fee.

Some of you people are absurd, and you know what?

Get off my side.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

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[DoveTurnedHawk]

11. Bullshit

I know quite a few Christians. None of them want a church state. None of them demonize all Democrats like you describe.

DTH

[Joey Liberal]

38. Really?

Then exactly who were all of those "evangelicals" that voted for Bush?

[ieoeja]

43. They were the radical, right Christians.

Not the Christians with whom DoveTurnedHawk associates.

[liberalhistorian]

22. No, that is NOT how "most of them" feel about Dems,

a lot of Christians ARE Dems and are NOT the fundie theocratic types. That is how the RW fundies want you to think about ALL Christians and that is why they attempt to demonize all Dems as being godless, moral-less commie religion-haters ready to snatch bibles away at a moment's notice. Please don't fall into that trap of painting us all with the same broad brush.

[Joey Liberal]

31. You are correct, but..........

Have you visited a fundie church in any of the red states? They preach against Democrats.

[liberalhistorian]

45. Yes, I'm aware of that,

I left my church of ten years last year because they were driving out Dems and making it clear that Kerry supporters were not wanted, no matter how active the person was in the church. But that is by no means ALL churches, there are thousands and thousands of churches that are NOT fundie and filled with theocratic fundie nutballs. It's the sweeping generalization that I'm sick to death of.

[personman]

29. I'm a Christian...sorta

and what the RW conservative christian nut bags do pisses me off atleast as much as you. That's no reason to dis reasonable, fairly sane religous people(who support the same causes you do, I might add).

[ieoeja]

57. No, most do not.

This morning I received an email that concluded:

"86% of Americans say they believe in God, so why we don't we tell the other 14% who oppose public displays of the Ten Commandments to Sit Down and SHUT UP!!!"


My reply to him is my reply to you.

That 86% would include Hindus, Pagans, etc. Presumably you could add their numbers to those not wanting their taxes spent on displaying YOUR commandments.

And did you know that the family who brought suit against prayer at Texas High School football games was Roman Catholic? In fact, the majority of such simliar suits have been brought by Roman Catholics. This is because public displays of religion are frequently used to bash Christians who are not members of the prevailing sect in that region. And Catholics, as the largest minority sect in this country, are the most commonly targeted. So you can add most Catholics to that 14%.

And then any Christian with any schooling in European history would be aware of the pitfalls of merging state and religion. You can add these and the vast numbers of just plain liberal Christians, Jews and Muslims to that 14%. By the time you're done adding things up, you will find that it is more like 70% of Americans, including many who believe in God, favor the seperation of church and state.

So why don't we tell the other 30% who want to force their religion into our lives to Sit Down and SHUT UP!!!

[prodigal_green]

65. Catholics, Jews and Protestants

all have slightly different versions of the ten commandments. I'm ignorant about Muslims and their relation to the ten commandments, but I would bet theirs differs to some degree too.

I've spent time in the south as a Catholic. The KKK thought we were just as evil and worthy of lynching as African Americans.

[LittleClarkie]

23. EXACTLY

Substitute "Christian" for another group, and it sounds pretty heinous doesn't it?

[mourningdove92]

9. some people might want to read our rules

3. Content: Do not post messages that are inflammatory, extreme, divisive, incoherent, or otherwise inappropriate. Do not engage in anti-social, disruptive, or trolling behavior. Do not post broad-brush, bigoted statements.

[prodigal_green]

16. Oh good lord!

Has NOBODY read my post? So we are not allowed to criticize the radical right whose dominionist, theocratic ambitions threaten us all on Democratic Underground?

This is totally illustrating my point. People hear one word and willfully ignore everything else in the post. The English language includs adjectives and they have linguistic function. Radical and Right-wing are two of them and are fairly clear as MODIFIERS of the word Christian.

[ieoeja]

39. You just answered your own question.

In the opening post you ask, "Why do liberal commentators need to do this? And why do non-radical-right-wing Christians feel the need to whine about it when anyone points out the hypocricy of radical, right-wing Christians without that disclaimer?".

The answer is that people "hear one word and willfully ignore everything else" as has been happening in response to your original post.

Though "Fuck the Christians" may be largely to blame. It would have been interesting to have seen if the additional replies were so obtuse had that post not been inserted.

[LittleClarkie]

37. The first statement was not flamebait

but other statements in the thread, like "Fuck the Christians" are. I don't blame the OP. I think he/she made a valid point. It's what came after that I find heinous.

[blondeatlast]

42. It seems a lot of people (not you) didn't read through

the OP.

I think it's a very valid point, as written. What came after is disgusting, though.

Edit: It would be a sad sight to see a good idea, however clumsily presented, locked because of thoughtless responses.

[LittleClarkie]

52. Even so

you just KNOW that's where we're headed here. Indeed, I wish the original idea hadn't been hyjacked.

[blondeatlast]

17. A bit flamy, but good advice nonetheless. Take back the name--

the RADICAL RIGHT Christians have prostituted the faith.

The rest of us have no reason qualify our beliefs.

[ComerPerro]

51. We have to clarify, because otherwise we are protrayed

as being out of touch with people of faith, and as intolerant of Christianity any time that we attack extremists like Falwell or Robertson.

I'm not talking about ALL Christians, just the one's who blindly support Bush

[blondeatlast]

58. we need to have the confidence of OUR faith. We know they are hypocrites,

but they have us on the defensive. There is no reason to qualify our beliefs--they are the ones who should be defending their decidely un-Christian ideaology.

[prodigal_green]

61. BINGO!

(and, as a practicing Catholic, I use that term ironically too)

We should take back the offensive on the culture issue. Most Christians disagree with these whack-jobs, but by saying, "Not all..." we are almost turning that "Not all..." into a minority.

You've summed it up so much more elegantly than my original post. I had just heard a leftie go on and on with the apologies and it pissed me off and affected my expression.

Thanks.

[blondeatlast]

64. Sorry this turned into a flame war; it really is a good point.

And kudos for the "bingo," too. Nice to get a laugh out of a thread like this!

[LittleClarkie]

72. Indeed the subthread was really beside the point

I'm not sure why it went there, but it did.

[Moderator]

77. Locked for cleanup, thank you for your understanding n/t