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PNACers--who died and appointed them God any way?

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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 05:01 AM
Original message
PNACers--who died and appointed them God any way?
It takes a lot of chutzpah to decide you are entitled to destroy peoples and nations. I've been thinking about this for the past couple of days and it is mindboggling to me that this group believes they have the right to destroy whole nations for ideological reasons. Therefore, this push derives from something as simple and pedestrian as greed or psychopathology. I just don't get how these guys think and still say they are Dems. I don't understand that juncture of when left meets right. I wish someone would explain that point of the political psyche to me because just don't get it.
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Qanisqineq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 05:03 AM
Response to Original message
1. their God is telling them to do it
that is my theory. "my God is better than your God so I need to beat you up"
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. many of them aren't religious though
They believe that religion is useful to narcotize the masses. I think they believe they are God. :)
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Qanisqineq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 05:17 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. oh.
well that is REALLY scary then!
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. I used to be obsessed with PNAC and all of this stuff
Then I started reading these guys and how they interpret the works of Leo Strauss etc. I've been published before on them. They really have a notion of white man's burden, that's why they want to force democracy on heathen cultures at the point of a gun. Couple with the hyperpatriotism, a sick notion of altruism and greed and it does get scary. I quit getting into neo-cons as much because it just bothered me to read about all of that stuff. They are some odd ducks for sure. Although, they aren't as immoral and greedy as say the energy whores who trade off back and forth working in the private sector and in government foreign policy circles. PNACers are often pure academics who have a hard on for Israel and want to be part of history in the same mold that the Roman Empire is part of history. Really interesting people, though. I just got sick of reading about them all the time.
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driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. Is it possible to be an "energy whore" and a PNACer?? Seems to
me that the two go hand in hand. Dick Cheney, for example...
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. yeah Cheney is an obvious overlapper, however
he isn't a true believer the way say, Wolfowitz is. Wolfowitz wholeheartedly believes in the concept of promoting democracy through force and believes the U.S. can become an unchallengeable power and enforced an armed peace on the world. Cheney is mostly an old-school Cold Warrior who doesn't know what to do now that Communism fell, so he talks about freedom and democracy here and there, but mainly he's a dinosaur. Top that all off with Cheney is a ruthlessly greedy person and there you go. Cheney is mainly motivated by greed and power. A believer like Wolfie really believes in this stuff, even though it's batshit to begin with.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. They worship mammon and believe "those with the gold make the rules". n/t
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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 05:12 AM
Response to Original message
3. Who died?
A very special form of government. Dec 12, 2000


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Bark Bark Bark Donating Member (572 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 05:23 AM
Response to Original message
5. It's The Way We've Always Been
Edited on Sun Jul-31-05 05:23 AM by Bark Bark Bark
PNAC is just a worldwide version of Manifest Destiny.

Manifest Destiny was supposedly justified by God, but in truth, God was just an excuse. Manifest Destiny was just the same naked desire for power expressed by any other damn dirty ape.

The scale--and the delusion--just gets grander.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 05:25 AM
Response to Original message
6. democracy
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tmorelli415 Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
9. Straus and Machiavelli
Edited on Sun Jul-31-05 07:04 AM by tmorelli415
Take a look at their political theories and it will all make sense. Not to mention scare the sh*t out of any sane individual. The neo-cons are student disciples of both Straus (some of the PNACers were literally devotees and students of his when he was alive) and Machiavelli. Evil SOBs both of them.

I seriously suggest looking at their writings if you haven't already. It is *not* about God or religion. Religion is meant for the masses. It is a tool of the select who lead to organize society. Morality is meaningless outside the concept of religion. Superior individuals rise to the top and are not accountable to religion nor meaningless concepts like morality. Dynamic societies will overtake weak ones. Dynamism is projected through power. Power must be expended or society will lose order. Order is required to maintain power and keep it out of the hands of those who are not capable of using it (the superior). Material wealth is a sign of superior character. Law and morality are not binding for those who lead, and is in fact considered a sign of weakness. Weakness is contemptible as it undermines order. The truth is what those who lead say it is. Honesty is meaningless unless used as a tool to create order. History is made, not experienced. Blah blah blah...
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clement Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 06:49 AM
Response to Original message
10. The PNAC believe in America's "Manifest Destiny"
....to spread liberty to all nations of the world by military might.

They think it is America's destiny to "Americanize" the world. Rather a dangerous ideology which IMO is akin to blatant imperialism.

Look at Iraq? A puppet government installed and 14 permanent military bases. The country is now forever beholden to US interests.

We may also remember the British empire when it developed a similar ideological fervour to spread "civilization and the rule of law" to all corners of the globe. What this amounted to was brutal expolitation, colonialism and mass murder of millions of people across Africa and Asia.
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 07:01 AM
Response to Original message
11. Could this same mindset...
Edited on Sun Jul-31-05 07:02 AM by Q
...pull off a coup d'état or sit back and allow 9-11 to happen to benefit their agenda?

Many believe that what happened during the 2000 election was actually a coup d'état and not simply a 'close election'.

Others believe that it wasn't a coincidence or accident that not one person in the Bush administration lifted a finger to stop 9-11.

It's more than likely a majority of Americans believe neither of these 'theories' because they can't imagine such craven acts coming from ANY human being.

But we've seen it with our own eyes.

We've also witnessed a certain faction in our own party tell us that we can't or shouldn't do anything about it. The point is that the PNAC agenda couldn't have been as successful without the help of some politicians that pretend to be on OUR side.

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tmorelli415 Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Pretend to be on OUR side?
Edited on Sun Jul-31-05 08:09 AM by tmorelli415
I don't believe that those in our party who in the past told us we should not act were trying to mislead us. They were mislead themselves.

The only way to stop them is to play by the same rules as they do.

***

The neo-conservative political ideology (Straussism)

The founder of the neoconservative movement was a man by the name of Leo Straus (also spelled Strauss or Strausse by some), he was a staunch, harsh political philosopher who believed Liberalism planted the "seeds of decay" into society because of the lack of morals and spiritual direction etc: here is a bit of info about him and his beliefs that he has since passed on to his neo-conservative students (including Cheney, Wolfowitz, etc)

Many neoconservatives like Paul Wolfowitz are disciples of a philosopher who believed that the elite should use deception, religious fervor and perpetual war to control the ignorant masses.

Straus was born and educated in Germany, relocated to the UK in 1934, then emigrated to the U.S. in 1937. After lecturing for several years at the New School for Social Research in New York, in 1948 he accepted a post at the University of Chicago, where he spent most of the rest of his career.

A charismatic teacher, he attracted a coterie of brilliant students, many of whom became prominent neoconservative thinkers and polemicists. A sizable number of Strauss devotees have served in Republican administrations, starting with Reagan and continuing through Bushes I and II. For example, Abram Shulsky worked for the Office of Special Plans, currently under fire for cherry-picking intelligence during the buildup to the Iraq war, and maybe the name Paul Wolfowitz rings a bell?

Straus's best-known protege is probably Allan Bloom, author of a best-selling critique of U.S. higher education, The Closing of the American Mind (1987).

Straus also took a bizzare interest in ancient estrotic texts.

His philosophy can be summed up in 3 major principles:

Rule One: Deception

It's hardly surprising then why Straus is so popular in an administration obsessed with secrecy, especially when it comes to matters of foreign policy. Not only did Straus have few qualms about using deception in politics, he saw it as a necessity. While professing deep respect for American democracy, Straus believed that societies should be hierarchical; divided between an elite who should lead, and the masses who should follow.

But unlike fellow elitists like Plato, he was less concerned with the moral character of these leaders. According to Shadia Drury, who teaches politics at the University of Calgary, Straus believed that "those who are fit to rule are those who realize there is no morality and that there is only one natural right; the right of the superior to rule over the inferior."

This dichotomy requires "perpetual deception" between the rulers and the ruled, according to Drury. Robert Locke, another Straus analyst says,"The people are told what they need to know and no more." While the elite few are capable of absorbing the absence of any moral truth, Straus thought, the masses could not cope. If exposed to the absence of absolute truth, they would quickly fall into nihilism or anarchy, according to Drury, author of 'Leo Straus and the American Right' (St. Martin's 1999).

Second Principle: Power of Religion

According to Drury, Straus had a "huge contempt" for secular democracy. Nazism, he believed, was a nihilistic reaction to the irreligious and liberal nature of the Weimar Republic. Among other neoconservatives, Irving Kristol has long argued for a much greater role for religion in the public sphere, even suggesting that the Founding Fathers of the American republic made a major mistake by insisting on the separation of church and state. And why? Because Straus viewed religion as absolutely essential in order to impose moral law on the masses who otherwise would be out of control.

At the same time, he stressed that religion was for the masses alone; the rulers need not be bound by it. Indeed, it would be absurd if they were, since the truths proclaimed by religion were "a pious fraud." As Ronald Bailey, science correspondent for Reason magazine points out, "Neoconservatives are pro-religion even though they themselves may not be believers."

"Secular society in their view is the worst possible thing,'' Drury says, because it leads to individualism, liberalism, and relativism, precisely those traits that may promote dissent that in turn could dangerously weaken society's ability to cope with external threats. Bailey argues that it is this firm belief in the political utility of religion as an "opiate of the masses" that helps explain why secular Jews like Kristol in 'Commentary' magazine and other neoconservative journals have allied themselves with the Christian Right and even taken on Darwin's theory of evolution.

Third Principle: Aggressive Nationalism

Like Thomas Hobbes, Straus believed that the inherently aggressive nature of human beings could only be restrained by a powerful nationalistic state. "Because mankind is intrinsically wicked, he has to be governed," he once wrote. "Such governance can only be established, however, when men are united; and they can only be united against other people."

Not surprisingly, Straus' attitude toward foreign policy was distinctly Machiavellian. "Straus thinks that a political order can be stable only if it is united by an external threat," Drury wrote in her book. "Following Machiavelli, he maintained that if no external threat exists then one has to be manufactured."

"Perpetual war, not perpetual peace, is what Strausians believe in," says Drury. The idea easily translates into, in her words, an "aggressive, belligerent foreign policy," of the kind that has been advocated by neocon groups like PNAC and AEI scholars, not to mention Wolfowitz and other administration hawks who have called for a world order dominated by U.S. military power.

Straus' neoconservative students see foreign policy as a means to fulfill a "national destiny," as Irving Kristol defined it already in 1983, that goes far beyond the narrow confines of a "myopic national security."

As to what a Strausian world order might look like, the analogy was best captured by the philosopher himself in one of his, and student Allen Bloom's, many allusions to Gulliver's Travels. In Drury's words, "When Lilliput was on fire, Gulliver urinated over the city, including the palace. In so doing, he saved all of Lilliput from catastrophe, but the Lilliputians were outraged and appalled by such a show of disrespect."

The image encapsulates the neoconservative vision of the United States' relationship with the rest of the world as well as the relationship between their relationship as a ruling elite with the masses. "They really have no use for liberalism and democracy, but they're conquering the world in the name of liberalism and democracy," Drury says.

Frightening isn't it? This, my friend, is what we are up against. True evil... It is not about God. The Fundies have been had. Let's just pray God does exist because we'll need a little help from Him before this is over.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. It's possible if they control enough politicians in both parties to thwart
a thorough investigation of voting irregularities.

Note that while bills that help the working masses are divided along party lines, bills that support multinational corporations usually have strong bipartisan support.
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driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. Q, well said!!
That is what pisses me off the most...politicians who are supposedly on "our side" have enabled these criminals.

"Sshhh...don't speak out against these guys...someone might hear you."

It is disgusting what our government has become.
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Patty Diana Donating Member (555 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
17. Democracy Died and the US Military Industrial Complex is now run
by this SINISTER PNAC WORLD CONQUEST CABAL. Nothing on their agenda but endless wars!
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
18. No one appointed them...
Edited on Sun Jul-31-05 11:24 AM by hootinholler
They assumed it by default when the press didn't pick up their story. They perceived (wrongly I think) a vaccume in the balance of world power and made a grab. I have to admit it's a hell of an accomplishment, in a Dr. Evil sort of way.

Who in the US really knows about the PNAC? Seems to only be us. I get blank stares when I mention it to people.

Why have the Dems not used the PNAC publications against the republicans?

Who is really pulling the strings?

-Hoot

edit: dislexic typist
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