Liberal versus fundy believers... we need help!

[GreenPartyVoter]

I am trying to compile ideas for how to put an end to power of the angry version of so many faiths, particularly my own, which is Christianity.

If you have any _helpful_ suggestions (and no, "all religion should die" and "It's your faith, it's your problem" aren't helpful.. I need _constructive_ plans of action here), please add them to the discussion on my blog about how Hell and salvation drive these people to drive us nuts. Thanks!

http://www.livejournal.com/community/thought_express/14905.html#comments

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Ok

I'll go there. I would suggest you google "Cherag's Library" (sorry I don't have the url). This will get you to a website hosted by the Sufi Order International. Our idea is that all paths lead to God, and our Universal Worship Service presents the themes to be found in all faiths. There are texts there from different religions, as well as sample readings.

[GreenPartyVoter]

3. I do have a link to a sufi site. Not sure if it is the same one, though

I'll go have a look.

[FreedomAngel82]

42. Check out

Christian Alliance. http://www.christianalliance.org They're a progressive group of Christians.

[undeterred]

2. Good idea

I will think on this.

The one thing I am sure is true about God is that the nature of God is inclusive... I will think more about how to say this.

[GreenPartyVoter]

4. Thank you. :^) Some folks have suggested standing up in fundy churches and

speaking out, but the only way that would have an effect is to be a member of that church long enough for people to care about you. Otherwise it's a RT version of trolling and probably would carry little weight with church members.

[DanCa]

5. Peaceful picket and protesting

I believe that we should actively picket and protest the policy makers of the fundie religion. For example lets go down to Dobson's hq in droves and stand up to them as a force. Or better yet the Bishop council who wants to make policy decisions for all of us.
Note I am not talking about the people in the pews. What I am suggesting is that we take it to the heads of the church themselves. The only way to win against the fundies is to show them were not afraid.

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. Well, they certainly have no trouble picketing us. I think it's a

reasonable course of action to give them a taste of their own medicine. Of course, we won't be screaming "baby killer" at them. Hopefully we will radiate serenity and God's love and compassion instead. That draws more people than vitriol.

[DanCa]

7. I agree with you on that.

There is a right way and a wrong way to get our point across.
I also started wearring my donkey pin too church each week and no one has said anything. Hmmm maybe we can we a light blue unity ribbon or something

[FreedomAngel82]

44. Yep

Last year during the election I had a Kerry bumper sticker on my car and a Kerry pin on my purse. Nobody said anything even though I knew all the young adults my age, except my brother and I, were Bush supporters. I was definietly a proud Kerrycat.

[kevinbgoode]

34. As a gay man who has to watch some of these individual

churches and ministers running off demonizing pamphlets that they distribute HOUSE TO HOUSE in a growing number of communities, I say. . .it's time to demonize them back!

Make up brochures about individual wacko churches, call them cults, and distribute them all over the community. It's past time they got a taste of their own medicine.

[DanCa]

46. Amen and hugs to you kevin.

Hugs to you kevin. I agree where playing by marquis de queensbury rules when facing street thugs. Isn't it written anyway those who live by the sword shall die by one.

[ninkasi]

58. It sure is, Kevin....

"It's past time they got a taste of their own medicine." Yes, it is. If they were true believers in Christ, they would spend their time trying to live his teachings. Instead, they spend their time and money to, as you point out, demonize others. I have enough problems trying to control and monitor my own life, and to constantly evaluate whether what I do is of value to society, and harms nobody else.

They should have their hands full reflecting on their own actions, and not have time left over to condemn people they make no attempt to understand. They will attack, they will be vicious, and try to claim that this is all done in God's name. My own interpretation of God would be of a Deity much, much more wise and compassionate than that.

Freedom of religion should not include freedom to spread hatred and violence. If they choose, in their own lives, to hold certain beliefs, that is their right. Acting on their feelings of hatred, and encouraging others to act out of narrow-minded hatred and prejudices is where they cross the line.

[FreedomAngel82]

43. Yep

I use the Bible against them. Use phrases like "love thy neighbor as yourself" etc.

[bluedawg12]

8. Try" Would Jesus Love A Liberal? You Bet! Site.

This site has good info, and may be of help to you.

http://geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm#scripture

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!

Resources for Liberal, Progressive, & PostModern Christians

Need more information? Try reading "The Heart of Christianity: Rediscovering a Life of Faith."

[GreenPartyVoter]

9. *g* Actually, the sigline are off today so you don't see it but

that's my site. And thank you VERY much for promoting it, cause almost no one ever goes there. *pout*

[bluedawg12]

16. LOL!! small world! You did a great job!

And a heck of alot of work. I had it book marked for future reference because I ran across it and thought it was so good and here I am passing it on to you! heh


Good job!!O8)

[GreenPartyVoter]

19. *blush* Thanks! In the words of the fundies, I felt "called" to do

something about getting resources together for people who want an alternative to what the fundies are peddling.

[FreedomAngel82]

45. Ooo very helpful!

Thanks for this site. Very helpful.

[Larissa238]

10. I posted as an ex-fundie

And I gave the name of a great website.. Christian alliance for progress. they are wonderful!

[GreenPartyVoter]

11. Thanks! *wave*

[Larissa238]

12. Not a problem

I think I have a unique view, since I have been on both sides.

[GreenPartyVoter]

25. I tried hard to be a fundie back in high school, but that glass slipper

just wouldn't fit this big ol'd foot. *g*

[Larissa238]

27. Its not for everyone...

Not me, at least. I did my best, but they kicked me out for reasons I dont want to go into.

~Rissa

[GreenPartyVoter]

28. If I _really_ let them know what I was thinkin'... they'd give me the boot

too. :)

[Larissa238]

31. yeah, I had my own mind

and they didnt like that. I would question things too much.

[mzmolly]

57. That is a great group. I wish we could really fund such groups

so they can "promote" rational "religion."

[GreenPartyVoter]

59. Hi MzMolly *hugs*

[bigmonkey]

13. A Religious Left site at the University of Chicago.

The Religious Left Speaks Up

[GreenPartyVoter]

14. Thanks, I don't think I have seen that one before. :^)

[FreedomAngel82]

47. Nice

I didn't know of this site before. Thanks!

[goodboy]

15. The Sermon on the Mount,...The Beatitudes>>> x-tian taliban's kryptonite

The text of St. Matthew runs as follows:

* Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
* Blessed are the meek: for they shall posses the land. (
* Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted. (
* Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill. (Verse 6)
* Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. (Verse 7)
* Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God. (Verse 8)
* Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. (Verse 9)
* Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 10)

[bluedawg12]

18. The Beatitudes- totally radical- theofascists don't speak of them

do they?

I think Jesus was a radical for his time- totally.

[left is right]

49. the whole Sermon on the Mount passage

presents a radical theology. In it Christians are called to a higher standard than just presented in the 10 Commandments. It is not enough to refrain from killing--anger is condemned. It is not enough to not cause harm for another we are to actively seek doing good toward him. Fundamentalist are always wanting to see the 10 Commandements posted because they know they aren't living up to the supreme text on Christian ethics. We (liberal believers) need to consistently, but with great tactfulness, confront the push back to Old Testament values with the Sermon on the Mount. And this, I am afraid can only be accomplished by liberal believers--we shouldn't leave it to Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, or even the agnostic/atheist. Christ who confronted the fundalmentalists at every opportunity gave His followers that responsibility when He told us to be salt and light

[johnaries]

35. There ya go! Hit 'em with CHRIST'S ACTUAL WORDS!

I consider myself more of a Daoist (Taoist) than a Christian these days (personally, I think Paul was a political hack even after his "conversion"), but notice that the fundies' seldom quote Christ's own words.

Here's another good one: "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's." Sure sounds like separation of church/state to me!

And if they hit you with Matthew 10:34 -
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.", hit them with the next 2 verses:

10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

So much for "family values", huh?

[FreedomAngel82]

50. And I also like this one too of judging

Luke 12:57 "Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right?"

[TrogL]

17. Check my website

http://members.shaw.ca/trogl

[GreenPartyVoter]

21. Cool, I'll have to add it to the gender and sexuality issues area on mine

:^)

[highplainsdem]

20. You might like this page, for the contrast drawn between the

Christianity of Law and the Christianity of Love:

http://www.christianmystics.com/basics/twoways.shtml


The main page of the website (http://www.christianmystics.com/index.shtml ) calls fundamentalism a "sordid remaking of God into the limited image (of) our own bigotry, prejudices and small minds."

[GreenPartyVoter]

22. Thanks! I thought that site had died off due to lack of funding or time

but I am glad to see it is still around. That is a very good comparison page. :)

[Mr_Spock]

23. I'm gonna do my best to post something constructive there...

may take me a while to put together something intelligent :bounce:

[GreenPartyVoter]

24. Well, that's fine. It took me up until recently to figure out that airwave

control is a big factor here. I am sure there is more we can do, as well. :)

[GreenPartyVoter]

26. Off to a good start but since religious flamefests can go up to 200 posts

I am setting the bar really high for this discussion. ;)

---------------------------------------------------------------
Tired of nutty in your face fundies? Me too!
http://www.livejournal.com/community/thought_express/14905.html

[GreenPartyVoter]

29. Hmm .. I think this thread was sposed to stay in the OTHER GD *wave*

[Ladyhawk]

30. I wish you the best of luck.

As an atheist, I doubt I could be of much help, but as a survivor of a fundamentalist upbringing I understand what you are up against. If I come up with anything, I'll let you know. :)

[GreenPartyVoter]

32. Thanks. :^) *wave*

[mvd]

33. I think that liberal Christians such as me

(I'm really a generic liberal Christian even though I was baptized Catholic) need to talk about religion more. If we don't, the fundies will have the stage and influence. We should tie our beliefs into our positions. For example, fundies point to Matthew 19: 4-6 when they want to justify their anti-gay agenda. But nowhere there does Jesus mention homosexuality. And I thought the fundies wanted to interpret the Bible literally?

[GreenPartyVoter]

37. My hubby;s church glosses that one over with "we're against all sexual

perversion". :eyes:

I agree. We need to work past our inherent liberal tendency to live and let live and keep our beliefs private and speak up every so often to counteract the very vocal fundies.

[FreedomAngel82]

51. Exactly

Jesus never talked about gay people and Jesus never tried to change his government. We shouldn't either as Christians. Instead he tried to change the religious leaders and what they were doing and he tried to change people's hearts and minds. Someone in another thread posted this great quote by Barry Goldwater: "You can't change how society lives or thinks through the law."~ Barry Goldwater

And I also like to throw out quotes by the founding fathers as well.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

36. How about using the words of Jesus?

Unedited by the apostles and the church. Hell, the Sermon on the Mount stands against just about everything the fundies of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism love to spout.

I'm not a "Christian" but I am a great admirer of Jesus and what he said.

[GreenPartyVoter]

38. Except Jesus "said" some pretty harsh stuff in some spots. So I am not

even sure if I follow everything He is said to have said. (But as a liberal I do not believe the Bible is inerrant, so I think any monk could have come along and slipped in some ideas and said the Lord uttered it first.)

[DanCa]

39. My grandmom used to say that the beattitudes and commandments

over rule anything that is written in the bible. Plus the fact that Jesus himself said beware of scribes and pharisee's. Couldn't the word scribe be someone deliberating misquoting the bible or telling fallsehoods? For example jesus was to nice of a guy to single out lectivus as germ obsseded gay hatting imbellcile so he just used scribe as a way of saying not everythin written is true?

[GreenPartyVoter]

40. Who siad even thinking about getting with someone else counts as adultery.

Although He may have been warnign against that in terms of not letting your marriage fall apart or drifting from the person you are with, but the fundies have turned that into a such an issue as far as "purity". They really are latter day pharisees.. all hung up on the purity issues Jesus was preaching against. :eyes:

[DanCa]

41. I am thourghly conviced that Jonah and the whale was a metaphor for

depression rather than living inside a giant belly of a whale for xx many days. If such a thing happened wouldn't the acid in the whale's belly have disolved jonah by then?

[FreedomAngel82]

53. Interesting thought

I never thought about that. Hmm. Jesus did use a lot of meaphor's in his parables. Things that people back than would understand to make the message simpler.

[GreenPartyVoter]

55. I think a lot of the stories are allegories or metaphors. No way do I

think the Ark really happened the way they said, or why they said. What, everyone on the planet was SO evil.. even the kids, and, babies and fetuses, that God had to kill them all?

Puh-LEASE! What kind of father kills his own children? If He was a human in that story He woulda gotten locked up. Or worse. (And never mind that Noah had room for evey kind of animal plus enough food, or that he was able to collect the penguins and polar bears. Or that it had never rained on the planet until the flood came. oy vey!)

[DanCa]

63. Well it always struck me funny as to how single priest can give marriage

advice. That's like me giving out diet tips.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

48. Most of the "harsh" words he used were against the fundies of the time.

He scorned the "established" religion of the time, the rich, the powerful, the status quo. The very things the fundies love to defend.

Skip the editorializing of Paul, the legends of Mark, John and Matthew, and stick to his words which were about compassion, love, simplicity, brotherhood, truth.

[FreedomAngel82]

52. Yes

When it concerns issues with the church what I do is I look at what the apostles say and than I look at what Jesus said. Since I'm a Christian I'm a follower of Jesus. Not a Paulistian. So I go by what Jesus says and if he doesn't discuss an issue (such as gay marriage) I make up my own mind and look at the law(s) of the land.

[DanCa]

54. Interesting i never cared for paul myself.

I dig mathew mostly, and the book of John but not paul.
I wonder if we can have a poll that asks which apostle would you most likely to agree with.

[liberalitch]

56. James to me was the man.....

always on the side of the downtrodden and misunderstood

[Coastie for Truth]

60. Try the local Unitarian Universalist Church or the UU web site,

and try some books by UU theologian Forrest Church.

Reading the UU books and being in the UU milieu will give you some ideas (I am not a UU member - just a "Friend of UU").

[greyl]

61. The problem is that Liberal and fundy Christians share a central

vision, and that is that "there is one right way to live." Added to that the fact that they believe they have found "that one right way", and the situation is bound to get worse.

And concerning Christians who say that tolerance of other religions is something they believe in so long as the other religions aren't "too crazy or fundamentalist"; what about acceptance? Can one truly accept an other religion while remaining of pure faith in their own? Now, if you as one of the "Good Christians" says "I believe that all religions have something to teach, that they were manifest here in the way perfect for the particular people they revealed themselves to", then you're displaying that you've been educated out of being a 'pure' Christian anymore.
That is a post-Christian attitude. ed: and i would congratulate you on your evolutionary path /ed

My advice to you is to avoid using the terms "right" and "wrong", and drive home the idea that a successful dialectic would center on "what works" and "what does not work". Just totally remove the concepts "right" and "wrong" from the discussion.

And good luck to you on that one. :)

ed: form

[Cell Whitman]

62. One good way to deal with them is to promote the moderate Christian voices

I find it odd that popular liberal blogs and websites don't link to sites like Dr. Prescott's Mainstream Baptist EXCELLENT blog. Also, down the right side of his page you will find many more good moderate Christian sites.

We've had extremist Christians in America forever. We've had John Bircher types for decades too, but we have never before let these folks run the country. The Christian right was represented by the Moral Majority - which had been fading since the early 80s when folks spotted them as extreme. The country wasn't going for their bulldroppings. Their money was drying up when Moon stepped in with his "American Freedom Coalition" and other fronts to show the Christian right how to be a political force. He trained them, he "raised" them up. The AFC was one of the most powerful conservative organization in the country for several years starting about 1987. They produced the voter guides distributed to churches across the country at no cost to Bush 41 in 1988. Yes, in a way, Moon instructed 30 million Christians how to vote. Started in 1982, Moon's Washington Times helped make fertile political ground for them.

Note that Moon and his political operatives claim his job as "messiah" was to bring the Christian "right" to power in America and he literally did it. He easily outspent Scaife in the process.

Moon is the master of illusion via front groups which appear to have a lot of support. Through these groups and his cash swindled from the Japanese, he helped mold the Christian right into a force. The bigger they appeared, the more money rolled in, the more powerful they became. The money helped to buy up TV and radio stations which convinced many moderate Christians they needed to join them as there was no other way. The "liberals" were coming to get them. So they convinced many to go extreme with their incessant misinformation and lies. Let's be up front here, what we are dealing with is a Moon molded product. imo.

Some called it the "Gingrich" revolution in 1994. hahah It was the "Moon" revolution. He guided it, paid for it.

So, my point here is that people are NOT going to give up their religions. So why not support those that are religious who have not joined this cult which controls so many in their ranks? Let Christians know there is more to the world than helping Moon theocratize our nation and the planet.

Promote people like Dr. Prescott and his Mainstream Baptist site.... hey, he has great blog even if you are not religious, check him out.

Let Christians know they don't HAVE to be fire breathing extremist to be good Christians. THEY DON'T.

Anywho, you can think I am nuts, but I am telling you what is happening to "religion" and politics in America is not the product of the free market of ideas or the Bible.

Read some of what occurred at the link below this photo which says it quite well:

http://cellwhitman.blogspot.com/