McCain has sealed his political fate for ME. Pumping keeping troops

[cantstandbush]

in Iraq and even bringing more troops in. i would think that he would know better. For God's sake, what did we gain by going into Viet Nam? What will we gain if we continue to give more and more reasons for Muslims to hate us. I believe the study that showed what is most behind the suicides and hate of the west is the stationing of our (foreign)troops on their land. Such it was with Russia and so now it is with the US. We will never learn the lessons of history as long as we are looking through military binoculars.

[DesertRat]

1. McCain is a sell out

[Imalittleteapot]

7. Love fest pic turns my stomach.

I liked McCain and gave $ to his Presidential campaign to oppose bush, even though I'm a Dem voter. After the Rove dirty tricks against McCain in that campaign, I can not forgive John for sucking up Bush.

[DesertRat]

8. Me too

I post it to remind everyone what a sellout he is. The Bushites "swift boated" McCain and his family in the 2000 primaries and still McCain sucks up to him.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

18. "Will you call me in the morning?" 'Sure, hmmm, hmmm, heee hee.' n/t

[blm]

2. Both Clark and Kerry believe that window of opportunity is closed now.

Whereas that may have worked earlier this year, if handled correctly, that window is closed now.

McCain is trying to counter Kerry's withdrawal plan he submitted a few weeks ago.

Sadly, the media will give his pro war speech more attention than they gave Kerry's withdrawal plan.

[welshTerrier2]

5. can you elaborate on this, please ...

why are you saying that both Clark and Kerry believe the window has closed? has either of them actually used that term?

i thought i remembered something in Kerry's recent speech that suggested our options were more limited now but that we still could achieve some degree of success in Iraq ... do i not recall that correctly?

and i haven't heard much from Clark on Iraq since his last major speech ... i thought he had spoken about a 3-way approach using military, internal Iraqi politics and external diplomacy that would bring in other countries from the region ... this gave me the impression he still believed a positive outcome could be achieved ... again, am i missing something on Clark's position?

[blm]

10. In Nj in midSeptember he said there was only a 2mo window to turn it

around militarily and then the US needed to strategize for withdrawal.. I read here on DU that Clark was saying similar things at some appearances around that same time, so it seemed they were on the same page then.

I think I pointed the thread out to you back at the time when Kerry made the remark in NJ. It was in a thread where a DUer was retelling the speech he gave at a Corzine campaign rally. That was where we first learned he was preparing a plan for Iraq to hasten withdrawal.

[welshTerrier2]

16. from Kerry's "the Path Forward" speech

Kerry said: "But there is a way forward that gives us the best chance both to salvage a difficult situation in Iraq, and to save American and Iraqi lives. With so much at stake, we must follow it."

am i wrong to interpret this as an indication that Kerry still believes there is still a "way forward" and that we can still "salvage a difficult situation in Iraq"?

this doesn't sound like he's closing the window ... it sounds more like he's acknowledging the window is just not as wide open ...

[blm]

20. Go read the thread on the new bill

.

[welshTerrier2]

21. from "Strategy for Success in Iraq Act"

this comes from the thread you referenced ...

"Kerry’s legislation, the Strategy for Success in Iraq Act, lays out a comprehensive new strategy to complete the mission in Iraq and bring our troops home. Its goal is to undermine the insurgency by simultaneously pursing <sic> both a political settlement and the draw down of American forces linked to specific, responsible benchmarks."

laying out a "comprehensive new strategy" and having a "goal to undermine the insurgency" do not sound like phrases that support the idea of a window that's closed ...

again, i am only questioning the concept of whether Kerry sees a closed window in Iraq ... the intent of my comments in this thread is neither to support nor to criticize Kerry's resolution ...

[blm]

24. The insurgency sees us as occupiers. Kerry's plan goes into ways

for the military and the diplomats to stop ACTING as occupiers. Bush keeps sending signals that we will be staying. Kerry wants to reverse those signals and is offering sound ways to do so.

[welshTerrier2]

25. perhaps so but ...

i think it's fair to say that Kerry does not see a closed window in Iraq ... again, focussing on "new strategies" and "goals", whether one agrees or disagrees with the strategies and the goals, seems like more of a "we can still achieve something positive" than a closed window ... at least that's my perception ...

as far as the details of Kerry's resolution, i've written extensively on Kerry's ideas on Iraq and will likely do so again very soon ... perhaps we'll be able to go through the points of his resolution point by point ...

[blm]

27. When he said closed window, he was talking about the type of military

success that Bush was selling.

There was no longer a way that would could ever succeed after that two month window (which also included constitution referendum vote) - and kerry said that the US would need to put forth a withdrawal strategy.

[welshTerrier2]

29. to clarify ...

OK ... is what you're saying that the window has closed on a "military only" solution in Iraq but that it has not closed on other alternatives for "success"?

i'll probably repost my detailed analysis of Kerry's plan later ... i really hope DU is able to have a civil discussion on the issues and not on the personalities ... the last time i posted a detailed 20 point response, i received one personal attack and one very limited response ...

gotta travel ... back later ...

[LittleClarkie]

34. However, in calling for a pullout of the troops by next year

what he is trying to lay out, it appears is how that should be accomplished. However, I don't think he'd be trying to pull out 20,000 troops now, and the rest by the end of the year, if he didn't think that the window was either closed or closing. He'd be sounding like McCain ie: "Whatever it takes" and such empty phrases that mean nothing.

[TayTay]

23. But not with American troops

Americans must declare that we have no desire for permanent bases.
Iraqi troops must patrol Iraqi streets.

Americans troops must withdraw from the cities of Iraq.

That was some of Kerry's plan. I concur with these goals.

[Mabus]

14. I'm skeptical about the "windows of opportunity"

The best window was right after the invasion. Any talk of other windows is predicated on (IMHO) incomplete data. Without a more complete picture of what is really going on in Iraq, any speculation of when "the best time to do something to turn the situation around" is just an opinion. I don't think relying on media reports or what the government says is going on is the way to go.

[blm]

19. Except he said that right after he returned from Iraq and spoke with

commanders on the ground, our allies and UN officials. He has a pretty good picture. And now that window is closed.

[Mabus]

26. I think there's a difference

between being in areas that are approved and seeing the intelligence and ground reports from the various areas coupled with the knowledge of what our troops and special forces are doing. No doubt he has much more knowledge than most people, and to his credit he's able to digest & understand the material more readily than most people in poltics, government and the military but there's so much more going on that it makes it harder to grasp the whole picture.

I have no doubt that there are Iraqis who knew of the secret prisons before we in America found out. They knew about the atrocities going on the prisons in Iraq like Abu Ghrib that people in America didn't know about. So, again, until there is a more complete knowledge of what psych-ops and black projects that are going on (that the Iraqis and others know) I don't think anyone outside the government has enough knowledge to actually ascertain when there are/were "windows of opportunity" available.

[blm]

30. Suffice to say that Kerry has his allies in intel.

Remember, he was railing against what happened at Tora Bora for months while DOD was selling it as a success to the media.

He got that info because people wanted him to have that info.

[Mabus]

32. I imagine they all do

but that doesn't mean their "guy" knows everything or is able to tell them as much as "he" wants to tell them.

With that said, Clark is one of the most active Democratic leaders and there is much to admire about him. He has the advantage of not being in office and not really being accountable to anyone but himself. He's able to say a lot of things that others are afraid to say but I don't think he or anyone else has a lock on the truth about Iraq or is able to accurately assess when "windows" were open.

[blm]

Suit yourself. Kerry's assessments are better than Bush's.

And I trust that Kerry and Clark are better than most at the assessing game.

[Mabus]

35. Just happy you've been so open-minded and not dogmatic.

[RethugAssKicker]

3. I've been finished with that SOB a long time ago...

He's a rethug thru and thru...

I don't know why he gets the attention he does.

[bowens43]

4. McCain is a Republican.

No integrity, no honor.

[NanceGreggs]

6. I used to have a lot of respect for McCain ...

... until I saw him shilling for Bush in last year's campaign.

McCain, better than anyone, knows what the Bush faction did to him, and his family. And he stood up and told his fellow Americans to vote for these guys.

He used to be an upstanding American; now he's just another Judas Goat, leading the sheeple to the slaugterhouse.

[DesertRat]

11. Let them eat cake

* and McCain celebrating of McCain 69th birthday Monday, Aug. 29, 2005.
This was the day that the eye of hurricane Katrina passed over New Orleans. While St. Bernard parish was under 10 feet of water, * thought it was more important to travel to Phoenix to speak with senior citizens at an RV park about Medicare. :puke:

[lapfog_1]

9. I gave up on him and Colin Powell long ago

they both actively supported the BFEE, when they could have both either
stood by on the sidelines (and both had plenty of reasons to do so) or
even formed a dynamic third party with themselves and other so-called
moderate conservatives in opposition to the extreme right hijacking
of the rethuglicans. But they didn't.

Now they are acting all "surprised" that Cheney wants the US to be
allowed to torture or that the WMD intelligence was not just cooked
but fabricated from fantasy.

Fuck them both.

[hedda_foil]

12. McCain's a neocon.

He was a member of the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq along with Lieberman and the usual (non Congressional) suspects from hell. Just because he's not a crazed Straussian doesn't mean that he doesn't buy into Pax Americana with a vengeance.

[flpoljunkie]

13. McCain even trashed JK by name in his AEI speech, re JK's idea to pull 20K

of our troops by the end of the year. I see nothing wrong with this. It sends a signal to the Iraq people that we do not plan to stay in Iraq forever. JK also maintains that we must let the Iraq people know we do not intend to build and maintain the 14 permanent bases in Iraq-something the Bush administration has not done--for a very good reason. Their plan is for the bases to be permanent--there to guard the Iraqi oil.

And do you know who is also still in charge of the Iraqi Oil Ministry? Yes, that's right--Ahmad Chalabi--while also serving as a Deputy Prime Minister of Iraq! The same Ahmad Chalabi who is calling this week on Condi, Cheney and Rummy, and the same Ahmad Chalbi who is still under investigation by the Justice Department, specifically the FBI) for allegedly passing secrets to the Iranian government.

Senator Dick Durbin and Rep. George Miller plan a press conference today to urge the House and Senate intelligence committees to subpoena Ahmad Chalabi to question him about false information he provided about Sadam's WMD and his contacts with Iran regarding possible leaks.

[LynneSin]

15. McCain never had a political fate with me - he has been and always will be

REPUBLICAN

Sure, McCain went after a few hot spots to get back at Bush but in general McCain has toed the republican line like 90% of the time! Good enough for me to write him off as someone I will not support!

[DinahMoeHum]

17. McCain has planted too many big fat wet ones on Bush

to be considered as anything except a toady and a panderer who is only out for himself.

:evilfrown:

[blm]

22. Kerry just clobbered Mccain on the Senate floor by NAME. Then

submitted his withdrawal plan for Iraq as a BILL.

Threads in GD-P.

[Generator]

28. McCain sounds exactly like Bush on Iraq

Flipped on MSNBC for five minutes and heard him yammering. Must stay the course! (oh I just bet they showed Kerry later too...right..yeah never..) Anyway...McCain's goal numero uno appears to get nominated for the Presidency and continue with Bush's folly. What's the difference? For all the yadda yadda yadda about him being different. He's exactly the same..except now that it's not an election year..he's against torture again. I know he's not for torture..but anyone that doesn't call for Rumsfeld to resign has the same blood on their hands in my opinion. No guts now. Just political expediency.

[bluedawg12]

31. He wants to be the repug nominee and he is a hack for them

I heard him on TDS and was pissed at his neocon words.

[second edition]

33. Exactly! n/t