Are DUers really that far outside the "mainstream" body politic?

[MoonRiver]

Lately when I look at polls it seems most Americans share the sentiments of the majority on this board. Granted the numbers are different (e.g. many more of us think * is a disaster and the Iraq war should be ended immediately), but the direction of opinions is the same. I'm hoping the progressive movement has had some effect on Average Joe's and Jane's increasing awareness of reality, but it may just be that the reality we've known for years is just now staring in his/her collective face.

[Neocondriac]

1. The illusions we have swallowed......

are hard to counter with reality. Most Americans believe their government is essentially good and supports them. It is hard to wrap your brain around the now obvious fact that they just want complicit obedient workers.Remember the "American Dream" requires you be asleep to believe it.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

2. oh gee..I don't want to rain on your parade

and when you hang out here a lot you tend to lose a bit of perspective. But DU is way off the mainstream, IMO>

[Protagoras]

4. We're off in our level of obsessive reading and posting

but I think the majority of DU fall well within the majority of liberal views. Sure we have outliers and trolls...but I can find those on the streets and in my office as well and many of them have never read a blog.

I think we're unusual in the vocal nature of our efforts...but not so much in the povs that we espouse.

[BeFree]

9. Gawd, how wrong can one be, Grannie?

I don't know who you hang with, but you sure are lucky to have found DU, eh?

Here, you will GAIN a perspective, not, as you say: "..tend to lose perspective."

Or are you saying you haven't gained perspective on DU? If you ain't, I'd be amazed........

[TallahasseeGrannie]

11. Lol

well, "gain or lose" perspective is debatable. I say lose because I tend to think, after hanging out on DU, that everyone with a brain thinks this way. But then I gain perspective in some ways because of the many folks here who do my research for me and are always ready to answer questions.

[BeFree]

14. I see

You gain knowledge here, but feel you lose the perspective on how most Americans think?

Does that mean most Americans you know were quite up on things, and that they all knew * is the biggest crook ever to be put into office? Do they have a greater perspective on elections, the invasion, 9/11, and the general putridity of politics, as well or equal too DUers?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

16. You lost me

okay..let me figure this out..

gain perspective....biggest crooks... putridity... equal

Here goes:

I lose perspective on how most Americans think (or what used to be MOST) because I immerse myself in the DU culture where one assumes everyone thinks as they do, or at least I do. Hence, the diminishing perspective.

Did I not state that correctly? I'm wondering if you need to read my post again because you appear a bit annoyed with me and yet I think I...oh, hell. I'm a tad hung over. You?

Read it again and tell me if I have made myself clear. I'm NOT trashing DU.

[RazzleDazzle]

28. You're not trashing DU but you make it sound like

"gaining" the perspective DU offers is a bad thing, or in some way less good than immersing yourself fully and only in the collective consciousness, which is massively illusionary and delusionary.

Your perspective is not diminishing here, it's diminishing out there. You too can be a beacon of light and consciousness in a dark world, but not if you think "out there" is where it's at.

I know you probably think I've misinterpreted you, but I would just encourage you to think through what you're saying, perhaps when your hangover is gone.

[zanne]

22. But who's "mainstream"? Yours? Mine? Joe Shmoe's?

I'm reminded of the old Simon & Garfunkel song that goes something like; "They've all come to look for America". Who is the mainstream and where is it? And is it all a matter of perception?

[havocmom]

3. Nope. 'Mainstream' just wasn't getting any facts. Now more are.

DUers helped lead the masses to some real news. The mainstream sorta caught up with us when they got savvy about how to catch up on the news ;)

The Corporatists spent years rounding up the media for a reason. The Blogosphere sorta messed with their plans to build an Iron Curtain around what information was available to people.

If THEY were really mainstream, they would not have had to get control of the media to such an extreme extent. It is not Democracy which is served by filters, censorship, controlled messages, contrived perceptions.

[glitch]

6. Absolutely correct --

"If THEY were really mainstream, they would not have had to get control of the media..." and that goes for the voting machines as well.

[RazzleDazzle]

29. Good points, and here's another

Not only do they have to control the media and as many other avenues of truth as possible, they have to lie about stuff. You name it, they have to lie about it. Jean Schmidt had to lie and say she never intended to call Murtha a coward, and the man she was quoting had to go even further to disassociate himself from her remarks.

The Bush adminsitration has to lie about absolutely everything they do, and withhold all their papers, and Congress has to help them cover up and lie.

Blogosphere sorta messed with their plans to build an Iron Curtain around what information was available to people.

The Blogosphere is the new journalism. We'll never go back and I don't think there's any way they can shut down the internets, tho they can try to raise havoc. The blogosphere will continue to prod and even drive traditional journalists and may indeed take over the role of news gathering and publication in time.

[xultar]

5. Yes. In some ways it is good because we are educated about the

issues.

But in some way it is bad because it causes us to shoot at each other. Most Americans are Moderate. Duers don't like or want or seek to understand a Moderate point of view.

DUers tend to consider moderate Dems as republican lite and moderate republicans as cowards. That's not going to endear us to anyone.

But I come here to learn. I live in the real world I'm educated on the web. I understand reality. What we do have right here is that people want our candidates to fight for themselves and what is right. The lack luster demonstration of Dem candidates fighting for themselves has made them appear to be wimpish. People don't want no wimp ass president.

[RazzleDazzle]

30. Moderates either don't understand the issues or

dont' want to understand the issues because they're too selfish. Here's an example of what I mean (just one): I know someone who is very liberal except about Affirmative Action. He doesn't understand it and he's against his screwed up, mistaken version of what it is, not the real thing. He won't let me explain it to him, and I begin to suspect there's a part of him unwilling to share in the way affirmative action creates equality because it forces equal sharing of opportunity. White males have always been the beneficiaries of affirmative action, and still are. Hard to give that up, I guess.

[Old and In the Way]

7. Not outside the mainstream, just way ahead on the awareness curve.

[IChing]

8. The mainstream believed

We would never kill journalist on purpose
Saddam had weapons of mass destruction
John Kerry didn't deserve his medals
Fahrenheit 9-11 was full of lies
Terri Schiavo wasn't brain dead
Intelligent design is as valid a evolution
We would never torture just a bunch of bad apples would do that
Corporations have the interest of the people and the nation in their business
Tax relief for the rich is in their economic interest
Katrina fault lies vastly with the State and local government
Brownie was doing a heck of a job
The stock market is not manipulated
Chavez was not legitimately elected
The topple of Saddam's statue wasn't a staged psy-ops event but spontaneous from Iraqis
Republicans don't lie.
Private schools deserve the same tax support as public
We have freedom of the press
We have free elections

Each one of these mainstream points have proven to be false

[BeFree]

10. Oh yeah, we have progressed....

....while the 'body politic' is still mired in the age old conditioning of hate and war.

DUers are the leading edge, a knife blade even, cutting into the mud of the past, and freeing, one-by-one, other members of our democratic family, allowing them to find stable footing upon the ground high up from the swamp of neo-conservative desires.

Peace, Love, and DU!

[Hello_Kitty]

12. Not at all

What I've realized in the last few years is that the wingnut view has never been held by more than probably 20% of the population, if that. But for a long time I really thought they did and that I was a walking anomoly in my community. Certainly people may subscribe to one aspect or another of rightie ideology but very few people see eye to eye with Rush, Hannity, or Pat Robertson. It's just that they've captured the media to such an extent that their message dominates the airwaves, particularly the radio. This in turn, emboldens the folks that Randi Rhodes calls the "Backyard Bobs", those guys who loudly pontificate with dittohead talking points at the barbeque. I used to be silent when they spread their ignorance, but now I speak up. It's amazing how many more people tend to agree with me than them. I'm in Arizona and these are fairly mainstream (whatever that means) folks.

[MoonRiver]

13. I watched my parents change from strong Repubs

to more radicalized Democrats than my husband and I (and that's saying a lot). They felt totally repulsed and betrayed by the extreme rightwing religious take over of the party. Dad can't be in the same room with a television that has *'s image on it. Mom likes to laugh at him, but dad just goes ballistic. And, btw, my parents have never been on the Internet and only watch main stream t.v. They do read news magazines and newspapers, but are definitely not "wired".

I think many fiscally conservative, socially moderate Repubs are angrier than those of us who saw through these fascists a long time ago. There may be lots Americans out there who are philosophical DUers without even knowing it!

[LWolf]

15. DU has become steadily more mainstream

as it has grown. Perhaps to be expected? I don't see any difference these days.

[annabanana]

17. we are "famous" for being fringe..

It is the label we have been given by a dying media. As more Americans find that news is only available in the "alternative media" world they become better educated and the polls move closer to an approximation of the truth.

Believe me, if the beliefs of Americans went all the way over the to the farthest reaches of "leftness", we the actual American middle, would STILL be called "fringe left" by the gasping dying corporate media news establishment.

[welshTerrier2]

18. DU is mainstream

many of us were against the war ... now, most Americans are against the war ... does that make us "fringe" or just more knowledgeable ??

some of us understand that lobbyists for big oil, big pharma and big agribusiness are abusing our democracy ... does that make us fringe or just more knowledgeable ??

some of us never trusted the lies bush was selling ... the American people have come to agree with us now ... does that make us fringe or just more knowledgeable ??

before sticking the "fringe" label on DU, perhaps those who have this view should list what issues they think DU is more fringe about ... there may indeed be difference between DU and the general public but i think most of these differences are caused by a greater awareness of the issues on DU ...

if we use rhetoric here like "capitalism is destroying our democracy", i suspect many in the general public would not agree ... but, if instead, you asked whether you believe special interests get special favors in Washington and the bests interests of the American people are not often represented, many more would agree ...

the point is, we on DU differ because of the knowledge we have and the way the issues are often framed ... if we are able to "teach" the general public what we know and we're able to tone down the rhetoric and emphasize the underlying values more than the labels, i think the general public sees things in much the same way that we do ...

[TankLV]

19. We search out the truth and don't believe the bullshit, especially when we

see and hear and read EVERYTHING for ourselves and can't help but notice the REPUKE LIES instantly.

So in that sense, we ARE out of the mainstream!

[MoonRiver]

20. But, I'm beginning to think that the "mainstream" is starting

to recognize that Repukes lie constantly.

[KingFlorez]

21. Yes

I mean we might talk a little more harsh than most people, but the ideas here aren't out of the mainstream. We want out of Iraq, so do most other Americans, we oppose Social Security privatization, so do most Americans and the list goes on. Most DUer's share the ideas that most mainstream people do.

[sandnsea]

23. yes and no

There are a small number of DUers who are way way way outside the mainstream but think they're the "base".

Then there's the majority of DUers who might appear to be outside the mainstream, until you get the mainstream out from under the influence of a right wing - media campaign. One on one, most people I talk to are much more to the left than how they vote. These people have charicatures of the Democratic Party that they reject, they think the whole party is those small numbers of DUers who proclaim that they are the base.

So yes and no.

[Donna Zen]

24. Philosophically and politically

we are Americans as defined by the founders.

Does that make us "middle of the road?" That term is always moving since it's denoted by the what lies around it. If the ideology of the far-right is successful in "selling" its mumbo jumbo, then the "middle" moves further to the right. The same thing can happen on the left (although I've yet to experience it.)

What I find here are people who are serious about the American experience; serious enough to educate themselves and take part in a dialogue. That is American. In a land where many people can't even name the three branches of government, that is amazingly American.

Ideologically DUers may disagree, but that doesn't negate our points of agreement regarding the intent of the founders, our belief in civil liberties, our committment to democratic ideals of fairness and justice, and a wide host of other issues.

Since when is supporting presidential lies a main-stream value? Or is it a moderate position to sign-off on corporate greed over the needs of average Americans? How far left does one travel to believe that we need jobs and healthcare in our country? Does the average American applaud the ranks of special interest lobbyists stealing the future of their children while they sell their soul to the Chinese?

The radical label doesn't fit; we are simple Americans who took the initiative to educate ourselves. If that makes us "out of the mainstream," then more people need to leave the mainstream before this ship o state goes down. Join the Liberals of the Enlightenment and learn to love your country.

[Eric J in MN]

25. Personally, some of my views aren't mainstream.

If it were up to me, there would be a 100% tax on income over a million/year.

I doubt most Americans would agree with that.

[Orangepeel]

26. I'm sure it depends on where you are. Compared to Florida, yes

In "real life" I'm usually considered a raging leftist liberal. On DU, it usually seems like I'm more moderate than average.

[Zhade]

27. Nope. It's a myth driven by centrists desperate to bolster THEIR base.

In just about every way, a majority of Americans embrace the positions we liberal progressives embrace.

We're not out of the mainstream - we ARE the mainstream. People just react negatively to the lies conservatives and their allies tell about us.