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Would you support splitting up Iraq? (ethnic self-determination)

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Ignacio Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 10:40 PM
Original message
Would you support splitting up Iraq? (ethnic self-determination)
Iraq is an artificial country created by Winston Churchill for the Treaty of Versailles. The goal was actually to consolidate oil reserves out of three Ottomon provinces. Ethnically and socially Iraq is a Frankenstein-state, with Shiite Arabs, Sunni Arabs, Kurds, Turkomen, and Assyrian Christians (ironically, while the Kurds have been persecuted, the committed atrocities against the Turkomen and the Assyrians.) I was wondering, should there be a referendum held in Iraq on whether or not to divide the country in two or three? Perhaps southern Iraq could become an independent Shiite state, while the Sunni rump state is annexed by the Jordanians. The Kurds could have their own country on the condition that protection is given to ethnic minorities. If splitting states doesn't work, then maybe a Confederation? Like the Holy Roman Empire or the Iroquois Confederation of Upstate New York?
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bammertheblue Donating Member (391 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. As far as I am concerned
it's none of our god damn business. I support whatever the people of Iraq want to do. If they want to elect a queen or a king or another dictator, it's not up to America to say that's not okay.
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Ignacio Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Not forcing them to, but hold a vote of autonomy
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bammertheblue Donating Member (391 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Exactly
Even if we think the government they want is crazy/stupid/weird/whatever, it's not up to us.
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O.M.B.inOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Ironic if the war replaces a secular bully with an aggressive Taliban nt
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bammertheblue Donating Member (391 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I wonder
if anyone would really care. Probably not, as there have been terrible bloody dictators in African nations and I bet * couldn't even pronounce the names of the countries, let alone care.

PS. Sorry to sound ignorant, but what is the origin of the *? It does mean Bush/Shrub, right? (Egg on me if it doesn't!)
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O.M.B.inOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. comment on pronouncing the names of the countries
I don't know the origin of *, but I find it a nice shorthand. It also has the word 'ass' in it.

Why would *'s speechwriters have said "uranium from Africa," not "from Niger," or "the central-African nation of Niger?" Right, show off his knowledge with specifics? I really think it's likely they were afraid he's mispronounce Niger, using instead a word that's probably more familiar to him, and inflammatory term of bigotry. So it was "from Africa."
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bammertheblue Donating Member (391 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. ooooh
Good point. Since he can hardly pronounce "condom", how can he be expected to pronounce names that he's probably never even heard of?

Isn't it odd that countries in Africa are almost never referred to by the name of the nation? Rather, it's just "AIDS in Africa" or "Famine in Africa" or "War in Africa". When we're discussing Europe or Asia, we sometimes say the name of the continent, but we also say "Japan" or "Switzerland" or "Romania" or whatever.
I bet a lot of not-too-educated people think that Africa is all one country. :(
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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. People Just Don't Care about Africa
Some of it's subtle or overt racism. Other times it's just ignorance - people are just baffled by its large size and by the sheer number of countries. And people just assume it's all jungle and corrupt dictatorships and poor people. People just don't care - the way they see it, it'll always be poor and lawless and filled with suffering. Even educated people aren't expected to know about Africa.

It's really a tragedy.
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jackbourassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #1
16. I support it.
It's going to happen anyway. Maybe we'll get out sooner.
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catmother Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
28. i ttotally agree. n/t
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AnnieBW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. The Main Trouble Is
That the Shiite part of the country is rapidly becoming a mini version of Iran, complete with forcing women to wear the veil, etc. If they get full autonomy, Iran will have control over the Shatt al-Arab, which is the only seaport in Iraq. Which was what the Iran-Iraq War was all about, anyway. So, while I think it's a great idea for the Kurdish north, who seem to have their act together, the other parts are ripe for becoming Islamic Fundamentalist states, one Sunni and one Shia.
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Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
15. That's not even the biggest problem
Turkey has flatly stated that it will not tolerate the existence of a Kurdish State on its border.


I support the Iraqi people's right to self-determination. But the reality is that a multi-state solution would almost certainly plunge the region into further, bloodier war.

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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
22. The Kurds aren't even that together
Edited on Sat Dec-03-05 01:52 AM by liberalpragmatist
That has been the media meme but as some observers have noted, the Kurdish parliaments are essentially rubber-stamp bodies. The two Kurdish chiefs essentially run the show like dictators, handing out patronage to supporters and instigating ethnic cleansing and violence in the Kirkuk region, in addition to defying the central government when they have disagreements.
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. They should be allowed to do for themselves... it can't be up to "us" n/t
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rfkrfk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. Iraq should be broken up... the pieces could get back together,
if they wanted to do so.
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O.M.B.inOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
7. Time for bold solutions to a big (and predictable) problem. Why not?
As long as distribution & access to resources are equitable. And let them decide later who would arbitrate and what would be done to protect the wearer states. After so much thumb-twiddling in the face of genocide, the threat of a strongly-worded letter from the UN may not be more potent than historical animosity. Still, I think it's the right kind of radical thinking. But then again, I wouldn't mind if the US were broken into 2, ala that joke that's been circulating about California seceding and taking the blue states with it. Seriously.
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Aimah Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
8. Ultimately it's up to the Iraqi people but..
it will have a negative effect on the rest of the Middle East. It would be seen as a US initiative and many Arabs are still angry over the divisions by the French and British with the Sykes-Picot Pact.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-02-05 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
9. How the hell would I know?...
What little I have read written by an Iraqi living in Iraq, has not provided me with the slightest clue on which to base an opinion.
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Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
14. Self Delete
Edited on Sat Dec-03-05 12:05 AM by Sandpiper
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elfin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
17. It was botched after WWI....
and the idea of "nation state" never took hold despite the strongman Saddam and his atrocities to ensure solidarity on his terms (and our extensive help.)

The natural historical inclination is to cleave to clans and tribes despite the fact that some important families blend others ala shiite/Sunni.

To expect a "nation" is exceedingly problematic - so few see themselves as "Iraqi" first rather than their familial identity.

The Kurds alone seem to have maintained their own identity and position and power - and seem to me have the concept of a nation state apart from the Sunni/Shiite schism.

They have been fighting for YEARS (almost a century) to re-instate "Kurdistan" - and will never stop .

I went to an Aspen Institute in 1975 and became acquainted with the depth of their mission and feel this is the untold story of the present mess.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
18. If you ignore Oil, you still have water to fight over.
Iraq is a STABLE country, ruled from a central location of Baghdad or from cities within 20 miles of Baghdad since the Collapse of Alexander's the Great Empire. First it was the City of Seleucia and than Ctesipon (270 BC to Arab Conquest in 637 AD).

Like the other great River system through a Desert (Egypt) someone has to divide up the land and divide up the water from the River for Irrigation. The group who does this is located in the central location and rules from that city (For example Ancient Thebes in Ancient Egypt, than Alexandria and finally since the Arab Conquest Cairo, All near or in the Nile Delta). The Delta was picked for no one ever Conquered Egypt from the Desert, it was either from Libya, Palestine of the Sudan. Of these the Sudan was the least powerful, so the Capital of Egypt was always near the Delta (Egypt had a second capital up stream, Memphis, but less important than the Capital in the Delta.

In the case of Iraq, you have TWO RIVERS, the Euphrates and the Tigris. Enemies came from Syria, Persia, Palestine and even the Persian Gulf. Thus the central location is in the middle of the Country, basically modern Baghdad or one of its predecessor cities.

The same Geography rules today, any Ruler of the Euphrates and Tigris River System wants to control both rivers as completely as possible. Given the need to keep the irrigation system up (or crops will fail and people starve) who ever rules Baghdad needs to control the Rivers, and whoever controls the Rivers must rule from Baghdad.

Even when the Turks ruled Iraq, it ruled it from the Ottoman's Empire Eastern Capital, Baghdad since to Rule baghdad means to determine how the waters of the Euphrates and Tigris Rivers are used.

Now the oil deposits are NOT in the Baghdad central Iraq region, instead being in both the Northern area control around Mosul and the Southern Area of Iraq. Shiite control the Area of the Southern oil Fields, while the Kurds contest the Northern Fields with Sunnis. Now oil could give both areas Independence, but water distribution of the Rivers still has to be done AND THAT HAS TO BE DONE FROM BAGHDAD.

Thus while Oil could lead to a breakup of Iraq, the Rivers require a central ruler. Both the Kurds and the Shiites know this, through the Kurds being upstream are less concerned than the Sunnis and Shiites who are downstream. Thus the Kurds may want to be independent, but then you have the question of how Turkey will look upon an Independent Kurdistan, next door to its much larger Kurdish population. I just do not see Turkey or Iraq permitting the Kurds to be Independent of Iraq unless Iraq and/or Turkey has a very large say in the Kurdish state (i.e. Independent but NOT independent).

As to The Shiites, they KNOW that water is more important than oil long term, and as such do NOT want to break up Iraq. Someone has to protect and make sure they get their share of the Water from those Rivers, and that mean someone in Baghdad must make that decision. The Shiites hope that a Shiite will make that decision, but an independent Shiite state can NOT provide the guarantee of water the Shiite need. On the other hand someone ruling from Baghdad can. Thus the Shiites do NOT want to break up Iraq, they want to RULE ALL OF IRAQ.


History of Baghdad:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Archaeology/ctesiphon.htm
More on Persia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Persia

http://www.umich.edu/~kelseydb/Excavation/Seleucia.html
http://i-cias.com/e.o/babylon.htm
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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
19. A Free, Democratic Kurdistan
We royally screwed the Kurds after the last war. In the interim, they have developed their part of Iraq into a stable state. If this war really is about democracy, we should let the Kurds go their own way. Yes, Turkey wouldn't like it, but they have their own problems. They need us too much to threaten a US-allied Kurdistan.

Do we reward our friends? Or do we screw them? The one group who have consistently helped us, and actually fought reliably with us, are the Kurds. Their state should also include all traditionally Kurdish areas, including those ethnically cleansed by Saddam.

Someone wrote something about not having read anything written by Iraqis. Here's a great Kurdish link page:

www.politicalresources.net/kurdistan.htm

Of special note are the pages of the two largest Kurdish political parties, the PUK and KDP:

www.puk.org/
www.kdp.se/

There's also the site for the Kurdistan Regional Government, which (I think) may be the official one, or which may be being run by the PUK and KDP, which have overcome their longstanding differences (sometimes violent) to form a front for national Kurdish unity.

www.krg.org/

Though the official position of the parties in the coalition is for Iraqi "federalism," you'll find that the hope expressed there is for de facto independence, if not full sovereignty.
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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Hm, not really
The Kurdish parties are basically corrupt patronage machines with dictatorial tendencies.

Matt Yglesias cited this article, admittedly from the AEI, so take it with a grain of salt, but the analysis seems sound. It's actually a defense of the Republican strategy, but it contains some excellent points about Kurdistan, which I have read elsewhere as well:

http://www.aei.org/publications/filter.all,pubID.23469/pub_detail.asp

Take the case of the Iraqi Kurds. Long championed as a model of liberalization, they are becoming a regional embarrassment. Rather than pursue democracy, the Iraqi Kurdish leadership is more consumed with self-enrichment. Following Iraq's defeat in 1991, the Kurds rose in rebellion against Saddam Hussein. The leader of the Kurdish Democratic Party, Massoud Barzani, returned to Iraqi Kurdistan with little but respect for his family name. Fourteen years later, his personal worth is estimated at close to $2 billion. Corruption and nepotism are rife. No foreign businessman can strike a deal in his region without entering into partnership with Barzani or a favored relative. Human rights workers in Irbil say they have met Kurds imprisoned for failing to pay kickbacks. Across the region, the Barzani family conflates government, party, and personal property. Local militias uphold not the rule of law, but rather serve as Barzani's enforcers. The Kurdish Parliament, meanwhile, is flaccid; its power no greater than that of its Syrian or Libyan counterparts.

The cost of corruption goes beyond money. An embezzlement scandal sparked the 1994-97 Kurdish civil war between Barzani and his rival, Patriotic Union of Kurdistan leader Jalal Talabani, Iraq's current president. Barzani is not alone. With the complicity of United Nations officials and cynical politicians, Saddam Hussein siphoned off $1.8 billion from the UN's oil-for-food program. While children died for lack of medicine, he built palaces and his family members bought real estate in Amman.
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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Self-delete - nt
Edited on Sat Dec-03-05 01:54 AM by liberalpragmatist
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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. corrupt patronage machines with dictatorial tendencies
Cynics would describe political parties in general this way. Heck, the definition of political parties as electoral cartels of legislators seeking to maximize their electoral power certainly does not preclude corruption. Political parties in our own country have been corrupt (witness the Republicans of today), yet the US has still qualified as a stable democracy. I'm not claiming that there wouldn't be problems in a democratic Kurdistan--I didn't even mention the PKK, or the general problem of too damn many political parties, or the Turkmen--but Kurdistan has a better shot at becoming a stable state than the rest of Iraq.

Besides, these same parties will still be in government, whether in a federal state or a Kurdistan. I still think that the ability of the various parties in the Kurdish area to overcome their differences to form a coalition for Kurdish unity shows that they have some willingness to let bygones be bygones and solve problems politically, which is a prerequisite for democracy lacking elsewhere in Iraq. I know Kurdistan wouldn't be as democratic as your average western democracy, but it would probably do better than Jordan, Saudi Arabia, etc--Freedom House scores of 3 or 4 would be a lot better than we could hope from most countries in the region, including what's left of the rest of Iraq.
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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Fair point
I just think it's naive to suggest - as a lot of sources do - that Kurdistan is some shining beacon of freedom. It's relatively stable and admittedly that's probably the most important thing right now.
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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
23. How are you going to divide it?
It may well happen - civil wars have a way of forcing populations apart and resulting in divisions of multiethnic states. It may be unavoidable. But we certainly shouldn't impose such a partition - it'll have to be up to the Iraqis. And frankly, a division of Iraq might well make things even MORE unstable, not less.

This article by Juan Cole lays out many of the inherent problems with the "Three-State Solution": http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040329/cole

The big question is: how do you divide the country? There aren't any clean lines. The region between Kurdistan and Sunni Arab areas is highly mixed with lots of overlap. There are large Turkmen and Assyrian populations scattered throughout Northern Iraq and do not trust the Kurds. There are a million Kurds in Baghdad and Baghdad is close to evenly split between Sunni and Shi'ite Arabs.

Meanwhile, even the Sunnis and Shi'ites aren't cleanly divided. There has been a fair degree of intermarriage in many cities which causes family divisions. There are millions of Sunnis in the predominantly Shi'ite south and whole areas where the populations are essentially even.

Moreover, if you DO divide the state, how do you create a situation that is geopolitically stable? Not that Iraq is stable today, but partitioning the country might not make it much more stable. The only part of the country with a steady source of income and a strong economic base would be the Shi'ite south. The oil reserves in the Kurdish north are running out, and they would be left a tiny landless nation surrounded by large hostile powers. As for the Sunnis, there would be massive ethnic cleansing and major population transfers (some of which is admittedly already ongoing) - who controls Baghdad? Whoever does, you can be sure that millions of the other communities will flee. Plus, a small Sunni state would have no economic base and no oil supplies.

Ultimately partition may be unavoidable. But it's always easy in ethnic conflict to assume that partitioning a country will make things more stable - in fact, it often makes things worse. Even when people share a relatively short history together, institutions and economic assets become shared, populations become mixed and different groups come to dominate different economic sectors. Though the Iraqis have not long been in a country called "Iraq," they have long been in the same empires, meaning that there has long been ties between the different communities within Iraq. Breaking those ties and splitting the populations will be extremely and tragically messy.

Historically, most ethnic or communal-based partitions have tended to result in greater conflict and instability in the long-term. The biggest example is India and Pakistan. Certainly had British India not been partitioned, there could have been problems down the road. But the British divided the country because of fears of civil war - instead they essentially got a civil war anyway and the result was much greater regional instability, protracted political disputes, and economic devastation in many areas. The result was an economically truncated state of Pakistan, an even-more economically unviable Bangladesh (East Pakistan till 1971), and even major economic displacement in India, where much of the North Indian elite were Muslims who fled to Pakistan and where the state of West Bengal - already poor - was overwhelmed by refugees who were now penniless. India's Northeast was also economically cut-off and is now an extremely backwards and deprived. And has there been peace or less communal tension? Far from it. The position of Muslims within India has actually declined as people are constantly questioning their loyalty to India and because they lack representation in the middle and upper classes (which mostly went to Pakistan). The two countries have fought three major wars and are now nuclear powers fighting over a disputed territory (Kashmir). Meanwhile, Pakistan was hijacked by the hardline militarist and religious establishment which seized control of the army and has prevented democracy from taking root and also funded the Taliban, Al Qaeda, and other terrorist groups in order to attack India.

That's a long example, but there are many more - Israel/Palestine, Greece/Turkey, Yugoslavia, and Northern Ireland and Ireland. Of course, I/P and G/T were probably unavoidable. But personally I think that had Northern Ireland not been partitioned the conflict would not have existed today - there would probably have been a civil war at the time, but there wound up being a civil war anyway. And although their numbers were far smaller, Protestants in the south of the country have long since integrated into Irish society. Yugoslavia is debatable - it's a myth that the cultures had nothing in common - they were long under the same rulers and given that they were demographically scattered amongst each other and spoke the same language, the union made sense. Whether it could have held together is an altogether different question and one that observers are divided on. J.K. Galbraith insists it needed to have been partitioned sooner as it could not have been sustained. Other observers have said that by encouraging Croatia and Slovenia to secede, Western powers caused the state to unravel when it need not have.

My point is ultimately that it's very easy to say "partitioning things will solve everything." It won't. It'll come with it's own set of problems and there exists every possibility that it will make things WORSE. It may ultimately be unavoidable and maybe it'll be preferable to keeping the country together. But the danger is that in seeking to avoid short-term instability and violence we'll get BOTH short-term instability and violence and long-term instability and violence.
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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 05:07 AM
Response to Original message
26. It's their business
We should only provide advice from the perspective of the very limited level of expertise that is available to us. We don't have a lot of expertise on Iraqi history and culture working in our government.
As a matter of fact, I think that is one of the primary problems here. Probably the thing to do is to allow them to negotiate and ask for advice and help from people who know better. The end result may not appear to be anything close to a "win" for the U.S. because women's rights may not be all the rage in that region. Church and state might be connected in some territory. But, dammit, we need to respect what they want to do.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-03-05 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
29. The US is an artificial country held together by a Constitution
as the Constitution has been trampled, and as religious zealots try to turn this country into a theocracy, there is little left to hold the country together. Secession will come to America and no one will care!

Iraq is a bit different. Iraq is the result of colonialism, as all other countries in the Middle East are (except for Israel and Egypt). Secession in Iraq will lead to civil war and foreign intervention.

Shias will never allow Iraq to become splintered and they will use force to subdue the Kurds if they attempt to secede.

Turkey will never allow the Iraqi Kurds to secede for fear the Kurds in Turkey would follow suit. Turkey will intervene to prevent a separate Kurdish state.

None of this would have happened were it not for America destroying Iraqi society!
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