Opinion on RW charge that "Clinton spied illegally also"

[rurallib]

I know he didn't but since Air America runs Franken reruns and lets the RW go unchallenged, I caught a little Rush today. That was his major point for an hour or so. Here is my opinion on that:
Hey, stupid, just because someone jumps off a bridge doesn't make it ok for you to jump off a bridge. W has been president for a long time. He is supposed to have people to help keep him from doing illegal stuff. If he chose to do wiretaps without warrants, he is responsible for his action. Bill Clinton is not responsible for W's actions. Nothing else needs to be said.
This is only one of a multitude of your fuckups that you are reesponsible for, not Bill Clinton.

[killbotfactory]

1. Well, it's not true, but that never stops them

If Bush sacrificed a baby to Bhaal on the White House lawn, they would scream "But Clinton did it, tooooo!"

[xchrom]

2. when have they ever missed an opportunity to lie about clinton?

[Telly Savalas]

9. For the last 5 years it seems.

It's awfully strange that they've sat on this "revelation" about Clinton so long.

[SkiGuy]

3. Did theidiot say that it was illegal for Clinton?

Did he really use that illegal word? If so, thank you, Rush. You just incriminated your president in your own stupid, drug induced words.

[rurallib]

4. Not sure. It's hard to listen to Drugrush let alone listen close.

the point is that it's ok for W because someone else did it, is just total bullshit. W must be held responsible for his own actions.

[SkiGuy]

6. I just find it interesting that

the repugs claim Clinton was doing something illegal (which is false) and then say Bush does the same thing. Therefore, repugs are saying Bush did something illegal. They must have big butts to stick their heads up there that far.
I still think, very much, that them saying Clinton or Carter were doing illegal things, and in the same breath saying that Bush did, is going to turn on them. Do they even have the capability to think???

[rzemanfl]

5. This is a bogus, bullshit, fucking fraudulent claim based upon

out of context quotes. We should not be wasting our beautiful minds thinking about it.

[BoneDaddy]

26. true but...

when having a debate discussion, I want to know the facts. What are they claiming? This can go several ways
1. Clinton didn't do it and they are merely lying. Criminal prosecution of Bush cabal.
2. Clinton did do it, and it was legal and they are lying about it's illegality. They did it and illegal. Criminal prosectution of the Bush Cabal.
3. Clinton did do it, it was illegal. The Bush camp does it and it was illegal. Criminal prosecution of the Bush cabal and give Clinton another BJ.


Why do they make the assumption that just because we are liberals, progressives, dems that we approve of everything Clinton did. It is such an asinine position, illogical, but their masses eat it up. They appeal to a group of non-thinkers and Clinton has become their anti-christ. Everything will be held up to the great mirror of CLINTON. Fucking whacks.

[havocmom]

7. If he had, they would have nailed him for more than lying about nailing

an intern.

What a bunch of attention-span challanged dip shits they are. They can't even remember back to their glory daze of gittin Bill :eyes:

[radio4progressives]

8. If we don't drive the point home this issue should concern ALL

Americans, and it doesn't goddam matter if Clinton did it or not, it's fucking WRONG.

It's exactly the same issue on Iraq in terms of the echo machine, "well Clinton said Saddam was a threat" .

Once, we Stop playing all around the mulberry bush, pop goes the weasel game - and start talking about the fucking evils of the outright destruction of our civil liberties - then we'll GET NO FUCKING WHERE.

And WHERE is it that we need to be??

First and foremost, we did need to RESTORE OUR RIGHTS - FOR ALL OF US.

Fuck these weasles politicians that would love to keep us mucked in the mire of this endless tit for tat game .

The fact is this war on terror is a PHONY WAR, completely MANUFACTURED.

Obviously we can't that fact very effectively, since noone EVER acknowledges this FACT.

But we can at the minimum - get this matter on the track of PRINCIPLES FIRST and party games last.

[thefool_wa]

10. I've said this before, but

it bears repeating.

At this point the only arguments I can get out of my Repug friends regarding ANYTHING the current administration has been up to are as follows:

1) you are ignorant/uninformed (the DU keeps this from being true)
2) you are gullible/naive (I assure you I am neither)
2) Clinton did it too/did worse (uh, no, he didn't)

Its like trying to talk to a petulant child who is so spun up with distress that he resorts to repetition and denial. I thought it was just the crony followers that I am within arms reach of that resorted to these arguments and it saddens me to think that it is spreading to those who wield either power or popularity.

I miss Uncle Bill...

[radio4progressives]

12. My Dear , Clinton DID do it too... Aldridge Aimes Espionage Case

involved illegal wire taps, apparently without FISA.

Convicted without a Jury Trial. Therefore no evidence released.

we can say shhhh.... all we want but Clinton DID do it to.

So the arguement with your Repug friends is not about "Clinton did it too" the issue is the crime against American Citizens.

and oh yeah, don't forget about WACO. Yes, Clinton inhereted it, but it appears illegal wire taps happened during that criminal trajedy.

[demgrrrll]

13. I don't think that Clinton made any illegal wire taps. There is a great

post up at Media Matters about Clinton and this issue. The post is the best I have read about what did and did not happen.

[radio4progressives]

21. At a rough skimming through Media Matters report....

seems to have undergone a great deal of hair splitting and I'd have to spend what i think as an inordinate amount of time analyzing the findings of these reports.

I suspect in the end of this undertaking, there will still be highly questionable actions in terms of legality and constitutionally.

Indeed apparently there were legal questions and fears and actions taken to amend the FISA Act, after the fact, according to the Media Matters report, as a result questional actions occurred during the planting of eavesdropping devices in Aldridge's home, and wire tapping the telephone and so forth.

No one is mentioning WACO it seems, which i think Clinton inherited, but gross constitutional violations occurred in that tragic event as well. And there are plenty of others I'm certain the ACLU can point to. I haven't spent the time researching this but when i do, those sources will not be limited to Media Matters, which is an organization that I do support, and i think they do a good service for the most part.

But they are serving a party, so they are partisan, and i'm ok with that generally speaking, we need people like Media Matters to be on message about political issues in the media.

But to me, the questions before us is not a partisan "debate". Or it should not be. It's a question of gross violations of our Civil Liberties, a Constitutional breach against American Citizens. I don't personally care which party is at fault. And neither should any of us.

i want justice and i want our rights restored to the pre Clinton, pre Poppy Bush, and pre Reagan era. If that means bringing Clinton to justice along with Bush that's perfectly fine with me.

If I had my "druthers" - and the political machinery to back me up, I'd abolish the 1947 National Security Act, shut down the NSA, the CIA and the Pentagon intel shop with all their mainframes storing data on all American Citizens.

But unfortunately, we've institutionalized the NSA Act of 1947 into our governance structure, and now due to the phony 9/11 Cover Up Commission recommendations, created and legitimized a secret "government within a government" aka "Homeland Security".

To me, all of this stinks and it's wholly un-American.

[thefool_wa]

16. I've never heard

of Clinton being formally accused or openly admitting to the entire nation that he violated the law with regards to illegal wire tapping. I am not saying that means he didn't do it, but these arguments sound like they are coming from the same people I was talking about. I'm always open to being proven wrong, so throw me a link if I am missing something.

WACO - man I had almost forgotten about that - there were so many things that went wrong there that they defy enumeration. I will say though, that if criminal wiretaps were used in any way with regards to that you would think that the Repug "war on Clinton" machine that hounded him from day one would have been able to capitalize on it.

One more time, I miss Uncle Bill.

[radio4progressives]

24. I think Clinton largely inhereted Waco, many of those illegalities

occurred before Clinton took office, and the invesigations, interceptions and other surveillance activities were "fluid" - on going - So, as best as I can tell Waco was a tragic disaster that was essentially created under Poppy Bush regime.

i'll get back with the links in a couple of days, probably after xmas day..

:hi:

[knight_of_the_star]

29. Just to point out

If he did you bet the GOP would have gone to town on it as soon as they found out about it while he was in office. That they didn't impeach him on such charges is very telling.

[henslee]

11. And if Clinton jumped off the empire state buildng... Wow, how infantile.

[ddeclue]

14. They are doing the standard omission of critical information B.S.

They are leaving out the sentences of the order where Clinton expressly forbade the government to spy on Americans.

[FogerRox]

15. I - SPY-- LOL-- ! ! !

Andrea Mitchell gives the snack down on the lies about CLinton and Carter--
http://www.canofun.com/blog/videos/mitchellclintoncartersmackdowndec2105.wmv

Additional smack down on Colorado Gov. Bill Owen on Bogus Republican Talking Point--

http://www.canofun.com/blog/videos/owensmackdownbymitchelldec2205.wmv

[harpo]

17. Debunked

http://www.canofun.com/blog/videos/mitchellclintoncartersmackdowndec2105.wmv

[dorktv]

18. "So you admit that Bush broke the law?" That is all you need to say.

If they say he broke the law then it does not matter what Clinton did or did not do. BUSH BROKE THE LAW.

[rman]

19. opinion? it's either fact or not

knowing the RW, it's probably not

[Vickers]

20. Damn shame they wasted time prosecuting a blowjob, huh?

:eyes:

Way to go, freeper scum.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

22. It's a reflex reaction, you know a knee jerk reaction

Just like when someone is tapped by a doctor's hammer at the right place on the knee the foot jerks outward.

So when Neocons, Republican fanatics are found out doing another nasty, it is reflex reaction to criticize Clinton and say he did it too.

Funny, in a way. Cause it is almost like they are giving this huge amount of credence and respect to Clinton. Like if they can say he did it too, then it is okay. Haha. They would never acknowledge this.

And then there's the fact that usually they are either outright lying, or at best exaggerating. What Clinton might have done to some small degree legally, their hero did abundantly, without any checks, oversight, and illegally.

[Contrary1]

23. Don't know if Clinton did that or not

“I will restore honor and integrity to the White House.” — George W. Bush, 2000

Enough said.

[MissMarple]

25. Not on"United States persons".They didn't do it here without a warrant.

The Republicans like to leave out the inconvenient bits.

[robbedvoter]

27. Clinton didn't - their logic is distorted:

9. From CNN
BLITZER: And just after the interview, we contacted the former deputy attorney general under Bill Clinton, Jamie Gorelick. She said she didn't know what Senator Cornyn was talking about. She went on to say this and she gave us this statement -- "During the Clinton administration, the Justice Department sought from Congress the extension of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, FISA, to include physical searches. Congress granted that authority. The Justice Department did not seek authority to wiretap without a warrant."
And Jamie Gorelick went on to say this. She said that as an employee of the Justice Department, she never asked for authority to obtain a warrantless wiretap.
We'll go back to Senator Cornyn and get his update, to see if he has a different recollection, or if he has different information than what Jamie Gorelick has just told us.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/12/21/8157/6595

logic of the argument as posted on DU:

ProfessorGAC (1000+ posts) Wed Dec-21-05 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
4. OK, I'll Post This One More Time:

Peter King (R-NY) said he SHOULD HAVE and that would have prevented 9/11. So, what we've got here is conservatives saying "Clinton did it too, but because he didn't we had 9/11, which wouldn't have happened if he had spied, but he didn't, even though he did."

[McCamy Taylor]

28. "They all do it" is in the RNC playbook after "Divide and Conquer"

[BigYawn]

30. Not only Rush Limpballs claimed Clinton did it, he went further

by saying Clinton actually had ordered breaking the door down
and execute a search without a warrant of the house where the
alleged spy lived. If Clinton actually did that, it was only the
right thing to do. We don't need to coddle no friggin spies.