NJ : Star Ledger-- calls for Howard Dean to be “bound and gagged”.

[FogerRox]

This is from a recent DFA rapid response alert sent to NJ members.
----------------------------------

ISSUE: John Farmer column in Ledger calls for Howard Dean to be “bound and gagged”.

Yes, that’s right – after providi ng a litany of Bush’s political failings this year, Farmer decides it is Howard Dean who should be punished. Perhaps what we are seeing here is the punditry equivalent of the Bushies’ post 9/11 confusion in which they attacked the country that didn’t attack us. In this case, Farmer lists the failings of one politician (Bush), and then calls for for the tarring and feathering of one of his opponents. Perhaps it is a case where Farmer, who has not written a column this year on torture, is sublimating his conscience’s need to address this issue by using the language of torture on Howard Dean, whose “badmouthing” of Republicans he decries.

See the full column: http://www.nj.com/columns/ledger/farmer/index.ssf?/base/columns-0/1135921390198480.xml&coll=1

Folks – everyone should write [e-mail] and ask him to provide a reason why he harbors such violence in his heart for Howard Dean, but none for the man who is getting Americans and Iraqis killed every day in Iraq.

Also, write a letter to the paper at [e-mail]. While we are at it, let’s lobby for a progressive columnist at the paper by writing to [e-mail]

Essentially, Farmer just notes that Bush’s initiatives failed on all counts in ’05, mostly thanks to nervousness of his own party (Social Security, tax cuts for the wealthy, torture, etc), and then concludes that we are stuck with Bush, and gee, maybe next year will be better. But first, gag Howard Dean!

Points to Consider….
Framing and Background:

Farmer provides no examples of statements for which Dean should be bound and gagged. Since Farmer notes Pelosi is also a guilty party, we can only assume that it is their comments about Iraq that annoy Farmer. Remind him that Dean, as usual, was taken out of context: http://www.ktvotv3.com/Global/story.asp?S=4219046&nav=1LFs and Dean – Just Plain Right: http://alternet.org/waroniraq/29179/
Ask Farmer, given his graphically violent suggestion for how Dean should be treated, if he has a policy for torture in the United States, and if it is different from his policy for detainees in Gitmo or elsewhere. Or is it just that he has a pro-torture policy for Democratic politicians with a little gumption.
Ask Farmer if he’ll change his mind about continuing to pour lives (both American and Iraq) into our occupation of that country when the insurgents finally manage to score a large direct hit on the Green Zone, or when our strategy shifts from the constant and futile recurring raids on the same towns over and over again to an air war that will include many civilian casualties (that the press will mostly ignore). Ask if his grandchildren are in this fight. Ask if he is considering how Al Qaeda’s recruitment policy is benefiting from the anger created by the occupation of a Muslim country by our mostly Christian country.
Farmer does note that with a turnaround of about 60,000 votes in Ohio, Bush wouldn’t have even been re-elected. Let’s remind Farmer and his readers that we’ll never know if Bush really won Ohio because the Ohio Republican Party’s State Secretary made sure that poor and minority districts didn’t receive enough voting machines. It was a sort of electoral version of Katrina. Black voters can stand in the rain for hours, or on their rooftops, waiting for voting machines, or rescue – it doesn’t matter. Neither arrive fast enough. Farmer should not be allowed to mention Ohio without us noting these racist realities. (Note: Forrester got a statistically insignificant amount of black votes in NJ <too few to count!> ask Forrester if the Republican Party has a problem with African American citizens, especially post-Ohio and post-Katrinia)
Farmer writes only one sentence about Bush’s trashing of the Fourth Amendment: “Bush’s decision to approve warrantless telephonic surveillance and searches is in trouble”. Ask Farmer if he has a US Consititution handy when he is writing his column. Remind the columnist that Bush’s decision is ‘in trouble” because it is unconstitutional on the face of it. The Constitution includes remedies for such lawlesslness by the executive.
Farmer also notes that Bush suffered a “rout” when Congress supported McCain’s bill to ban torture. Should not this Administration’s pro-torture position be condemned? Should not any president who supports torture , while saying we don’t do it, be removed, or at least subject to the same heartfelt criticism that Farmer can only seem to subject to Howard Dean? Or is this columnist simply an amoral observer of the game of politics?
Ask Farmer why he doesn’t write about torture or the Fourth Amendment. Remind him that Bush’s failings include actual crimes. Provide him with the link to Bush lie number 7983 in which he stated in 2004 that the government always gets court warrants for wiretaps on Americans. http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=4286167&nav=4QcS Bush’s full quote: "Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires — a wiretap requires a court order," - "Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so. It's important for our fellow citizens to understand, when you think 'Patriot Act,' constitutional guarantees are in place when it comes to doing what is necessary to protect our homeland, because we value the Constitution." It sure sounds like Bush lied there, but the Administration maintains “oh, these wiretaps are different”. Doesn’t matter! It’s not an issue for Farmer – ask him why he doesn’t call for an investigation.
Farmer says Bush wouldn’t have had these problems last year. Remind Farmer that a big part of the reason for this is that columnist like him who, despite mountains of evidence, gave (and continue to give) Bush the benef it of the doubt on numerous issues, but especially WMD in Iraq. If we had a Democrat in the White House there were would be a special nightly TV program (or two, or three) with variations of the title “Day 1,567 of the Hunt for Osama bin Laden”. Instead, we have a media that won’t even report on the Downing Street Memos for weeks, and when they finally do, it is only to dismiss it.
Farmer says that the ‘upshot” of the year is that Bush has lost the confidence of the country, but “like him or not, Bush is the face we put forward as a nation to the rest of the world”. Ask Farmer why this has to be. Why, when he have a president who has, to put it charitably, shown a laxity with the truth and our troops’ lives in Iraq, a disconnect to reality when it comes to providing prompt aid to our own populati on in New Orleans, and a stated uninterest or even worry about Osama bin Laden….. why should Farmer sit in his bully pulpit and wring his hands over Bush’s failures, but reserve his heavy rhetorical artillery for Howard Dean, the guy who was right about Iraq, right about how the capture of Saddam wouldn’t make things all that much better, right about Colin Powell’s Feb. 2003 UN speech, right about how our government exists for the benefit of 20% when it should exist for the benefit of the 80%., right even when he said the Republican Party was majority white? (note: I disagree with much of Dean’s stance on the war in iraq – he hasn’t called for withdrawal, but rather redeployment; he is likely caving in somewhat to realities in the Dem Party, but this makes Farmer’s lazy assault on him all the more galling)
Happy New Year - Resolve to write a Letter to the Editor and your Congressional representatives at least twice a month in '06!

ACTION:
Write the Star Ledger at [e-mail]
Write the [e-mail]

[Rainscents]

1. People should stop buying their paper!!!

Dean speak for me!

[Roland99]

2. This wasn't some sarcasm from Farmer?

"Perhaps what we are seeing here is the punditry equivalent of the Bushies’ post 9/11 confusion in which they attacked the country that didn’t attack us."


Maybe that was what he was intending to do?

[Dr.Phool]

3. Bush failed because of the nervousness of his own party?

:wtf:

I thought he failed because EVERY idea he has is a bad idea. So bad in fact, that his own party had to run away from him...really fast.

[MrBenchley]

4. What a load of crap....

And let's not even get into the FACT that Farmer is absolutely right...Dean's comments in San Antonio were idiotic and helped the faltering GOP.

[AntiCoup2K4]

8. You would defend this fucking piece of filth.

DLC'ers don't care who they have to side with, as long as they can take a cheap shot at Dean.

Talk about McCarthyism.......

[MrBenchley]

9. From a scummy attack like this? You bet.

Dean was a fucking idiot, and Farmer was right.

"Talk about McCarthyism......."
Our progressive purists don't just talk avbout McCartyhyism--they do all they can to emulate Joe.

[FogerRox]

12. DLC'ers--- LOL-- you may be right-- LOL

kinda sounds like it dont it? LOLOLOLOLOLOL

If the poster was a fan of -- asy --- CLarke-- it would be different maybe-- LOL

[FogerRox]

11. got a cite? link?

[MrBenchley]

16. For what?

Even Dean knew he fucked up...which is why he began doing damage control.

[FogerRox]

18. link to

Dean's comments in San Antonio were idiotic and helped the faltering GOP.

[MrBenchley]

19. Even Dean knew he fucked up

since he began doing damage control almost immediately.

[FogerRox]

20. I must have missed that

SAn Diego? do you remmeber the date? If you dont have a link or cite-- I can search for it the comments-- just get me in the direction with a time frame--

thanks

[MrBenchley]

21. San ANTONIO....as I clearly said.....

[FogerRox]

24. got a date or time frame? as I clearly said?

[MrBenchley]

39. Hahahahaha....

Ask me next why I should bother.....

[FogerRox]

68. lets just see about that

Michelle Malkin the Phillipino who is hated by Phillipinos, and aws threatened with Assisination by the Mexican Mafia

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004026.htm

or-
http://760kfmb.com/rick_blog/?p=42

Howard Dean said “The idea that we are going to win this war is an idea that unfortunately is just plain wrong.”

Okay. That’s the last straw. The Democrats MUST remove Howard Dean as their Chairman. AND WE SHOULD THROW HIM OUT OF THE COUNTRY!

If for no other reason than he is putting our national security at risk! As President Bush said “You’re either with us or against us.”

or was it this comment-

Seeking to clarify a statement in a Texas radio interview that Republicans harshly assailed and some Democrats questioned, Dean said, "They kind of cherry-picked that one the same way the president cherry-picked the intelligence going into Iraq."

source:

KFMB TV Local 8 News in San Diego
http://www.kfmb.com/story.php?id=30357

heres the part about getting a death threat from the mexicaly mafia- She --MIchelle was chased out of LA and ran to Seattle --- of course she doesnt get into the underlying reasons--

http://michellemalkin.com/about.htm

[MrBenchley]

70. What the fuck ARE you babbling about?

[FogerRox]

76. you might want to bother because you are positive member of DU

[AntiCoup2K4]

36. Dean "fucked up" = Dean says something that Al From didn't like.....

God forbid anyone should ever do that......

As usual, Dean was correct, and the DLC continues to defend the FRAUD that is the Chimp pResidency and it's so called "war on terra".

[MrBenchley]

41. Dean fucked up...and even HE knew it.

[SaveElmer]

48. Exactly right!!!

Dean is the DNC chairman whose job it is to get Democrats elected, and he has done well so far. Elected officials should be speaking for the party on issues. And if Dean insists on doing it he needs to prepare his remarks more carefully. His comments were incompletely stated and just gave the GOP an issue to flog us with.

Even he realized this the next day and did a good job of damage control, limiting it to a one or two day story.

[MrBenchley]

55. Dean did do damage control quickly

but he could have avoided the whole mess.....

[SaveElmer]

59. No doubt about it...

And he is a smart guy. I think he will learn from this and be more careful in the future. Other than these verbal gaffes he seems to be doing a good job!

[MrBenchley]

62. Agreed....

[madfloridian]

66. A gaffe is the truth the party does not want you to say.

He told the truth. Boy, it hit the fan didn't it? Now everyone in our party loves the war because Dean spoke out. They went right back in line.

Toe the line. Speak carefully.

[SaveElmer]

73. Deans job is politics...

Not policy...

In his job it is not what he says that is important...how it is perceived is!

[madfloridian]

77. Perception got us into this war, truth is needed to get us out.

My God, will our party ever get over the perception stuff?

[SaveElmer]

80. That is the job of the politicians...

Deans job is to get those politicians into office. Giving ammunition to the enemy, and drawing negative media coverage is not the way to do that.

[madfloridian]

86. That "negative press" stuff is getting tiresome.

The only way one gets positive press is to praise the God Bush.

We all have a right to speak out, and if he has an opinion on lies and truth....he has a right.

So do I.

[SaveElmer]

120. The usual bugaboo...

No one ever questioned his RIGHT to speak out...only the wisdom of doing so. Again, it is not his job to be the spokesman for the party on issues...that is the job of elected politicians. And, if he is going to do it he needs to do it in a way that advances the prospects of the party. He made his point badly, and we got two days of bad press because of it.

Even he realized he had made a mistake and did a very good job of damage control.

[Cha]

90. Oh yeah, Dean should be more

like Fucking hillary.

[SaveElmer]

121. Nice mouth...

Politics 101:

Hillary: elected politician

Dean: Hired political operative


Hillary's job: Speak out on issues and represent her constituents

Dean's job: Get Democrats elected

Both doing good jobs up to now.

[NYCGirl]

122. Hillary:

Hillary: elected once.

Dean: elected five terms.

[SaveElmer]

123. Irrelevent...

Again, Dean's job is to get other Democrats elected, not garner negative publicity for the party...

He messed up, and everyone, including Dean himself realizes it. It is only here in the DU bubble that that realization never sinks in!

[NYCGirl]

124. How can you say it's irrelevent when YOU BROUGHT IT UP?

It obviously meant something to you.

[SaveElmer]

133. Buruther...

Of course I am referring to the post that stated Howard Dean WAS a governor, and that that somehow made a difference as to what his role is now. He is not a Governor now, and his role as Governor has no bearing on how he performs his job as DNC chair!!!

[madfloridian]

49. Dean told the unvarnished truth, it went out all over the world.

The audio had hundreds of thousands of listens. I say power to the truth tellers.

[MrBenchley]

54. And it was an utter debacle

which is why Dean began to do damage control....

[radio4progressives]

87. Not a debacle at all, only to right wingers like you...and the DLC.

'nuf said...

[MrBenchley]

109. It was a fucking debacle, which is why Dean began doing damage control

almost immediately.

[Capn Sunshine]

110. Could you be more specific?

Cite an example of "damage control"
Since you're the one maintaining there was "damage"

[madfloridian]

112. I am working up a post on his appearances and statements that week.

I am working up a summary of the times he appeared that week, including his appearance at the Florida Democratic Convention. It is amazing how he said almost the very same words, just a little wee tweak here and there.

But we haven't heard much from him or Murtha or Pelosi since.

But I did see the Bull Moose as Democratic spokesman on a recent show...either CNN or MSNBC. He is not even a Democratic by his own words. He is an independent spouting DLC rhetoric.

I have the WOAI audio, the CNN interview, the Steph Miller show, and the Florida appearance....according to people present there among the 2000 or so...he "lit up the room" . They were having to keep people back from the rope line.

And according to one person there, she said to him wouldn't it be easier if you did not tell the truth so often. He grinned and said it wouldn't be nearly as much fun.

[Capn Sunshine]

119. I think there's a blackout on Dean in MSM

It's not like he's stopped talking ( as if) He's at a conference today , In Florida I think, with other Dem leaders from around the country.

I think MSM realized saying the truth about the war in Iraq resonated to such an extent they had best stop covering Dean before he says something else that rouses the populace.

I look forward enthusiastically to his next "fuckup".

Like someone else said, "fuckup" = something the DLC doesn't want to hear that threatens their corporate cash flow.

[madfloridian]

125. Are you sure it is today? I do agree on the blackout , though.

Do you know what city? Just curious. My friends who hold positions with the state party and county level are finding that a lot goes on they don't hear about. It is like Karen Thurman and Bill Nelson pretty much run things at the state level, and I suspect Jim Davis of being pretty much involved as well.

There was a time that was ok with me because I was not paying that much attention. Now I am.

Oddly enough I just heard from someone in the state party asking me about that. You would think this person would know something at least.

Dean was here this month for the convention, 9th or 10th. So were Edwards, Warner,Obama, and Vilsack. If you want to see how Karen handled the star factor thing, you need to read this. Front page and main speaker all Obama. Fine with me, Dean was Friday night...a rally and all. But it is interesting how she handled all the ones who were there...not a picture of anyone but Obama, Nelson, and a state guy...

Just kind of odd.
http://www.fladems.com/

Let me know if you hear what city. My friend just heard something today, thought she was hearing wrong.

[MrBenchley]

135. Geze, are you really this far out of touch with current events?

"Dean was questioned on CNN about an interview he gave Monday to radio station WOAI in San Antonio. "The idea that we're going to win this war is an ideal that unfortunately is just plain wrong," the former Vermont governor and unsuccessful 2004 presidential candidate said.
<snip>
Asked Thursday to defend his statement in the Texas radio interview, Dean said: "It was a little out of context. ... We can only win if we change our strategy dramatically. ... We want to serve our troops well. They're doing a fantastic job in Iraq."
Dean charged that Bush is "going in the wrong direction. We'll go in the right direction and save soldiers lives while we're doing it."
"We can and we have to win the war on terror," the Democratic Party chairman added. "We can't do it with this kind of approach.""

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/08/democrats.iraq.ap/

[BlueIris]

126. Ah. I LOVE YOU, MR. BENCHLEY!!!

Finally, a poster who REALLY tells it like it is.

[MrBenchley]

136. How do you like the way

the OP ignored pretty much all of Farmer's column to throw a conniption about one sentence?

[FogerRox]

74. MrBenchley

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

3. Civility: Treat other members with respect.

4. Content: Do not post messages that are inflammatory, extreme, divisive, incoherent, or otherwise inappropriate. Do not engage in anti-social, disruptive, or trolling behavior. Do not post broad-brush, bigoted statements.

[radio4progressives]

85. MB: You really ought to change those Lens' of yours, they are BLINDING you

to the point you can't even tell if the sun is shining or it's a moonless night. either that are start learning to read braile.

[LiberalPartisan]

5. The most difficult thing for pundits to comprehend

is their complete and utter irrelevancy. They have no say in the process or the outcome. They are parasites - surviving off the work of others.

Having lived in New Jersey for extended periods I can vouch for the extremely low quality of the Star-Ledger. It suffers from a major inferiority complex vis a vis the NYC dailies which is only exacerbated by it the sub-par quality of its staff.

[FogerRox]

13. LiberalPartisan:

I can vouch for the extremely low quality of the Star-Ledger.

yes I know-- LOL

which is only exacerbated by it the sub-par quality of its staff.

touche-- again

[LiberalEsto]

104. I worked for the Star-Ledger for 11 years

from 1979-1990 as a reporter. It was gawd-awful back then. We couldn't write anything that might step on this politician's toes, or that one's. One reason Newark became such a mess was because the Star-Ledger shirked its job of investigating what went on in the city. It was frustrating, and sometimes embarrassing, to work there.

Frankly I think it's become a far better paper in recent years. It takes some surprisingly liberal stands in its editorials. I don't read it often, since I now live in Maryland and get the WashPost. But I think the Star-Ledger is currently a far better paper in terms of its overall politics than the cowardly, rethug-ass-kissing Post.

The Star Ledger also does a pretty decent job of covering what goes on in New Jersey -- something the NY and Philly papers don't bother to do. The few other dailies in NJ are for the most part owned by Gannett, publishers of USA Today, which means they utterly suck.

That said, I think John Farmer's comments on Dean were uncalled-for.

[tsuki]

6. Freedom of Speech, Constitution of the United States.

Farmer either LOVE America and Its Constitution, or LEAVE.

[chaumont58]

7. I sent him a note accusing him of taking money from the DLC

ala Jack Abramoff.

[MrBenchley]

10. He'll probably laugh his ass off at that.

[Kahuna]

15. That is so silly. Farmer has been doing this stuff for many many decades.

You know nothing about him. You will not help your side by making ad hominem attacks about someone who was leading the fight before you were a gleam in your daddy's eye.

[chaumont58]

22. Is this the DU or the KGB?

Are we allowed to have opinions, or must we all tow a line.

Sunshine, you should not raise your voice before you know what you are talking about. I bet I am older than Farmer, let alone some event that occured in my father's eye.

[Kahuna]

29. Don't know why you pointed such a ridiclous question at me..

Of course you're entitled to have your opinion, and others are entitled to disagree with you. You're the one who seems to have a problem with it. Not me. And somehow I doubt that someone who is as old as Farmer, only response to a column you disagree with is to accuse him of taking money from the DLC. Sorry but that just doesn't sound like something people of Farmer's generation would be saying as they say wisdom comes with age. And your retort doesn't scream WISDOM.

[chaumont58]

35. I don't know Al Farmer from Farmer John

I've never before read any of his tripe, and, if I am lucky for the rest of my life, I won't in the future. But, he advocates muzzeling the elected Democratic leader in the House of Representatives and the elected chairman of the Democratic National Commitee. If that is right out of the DLC handbook, what is?
I think I made a reasonable suggestion. Farmer is carrying DLC water, pure and simple.

[Kahuna]

43. It's obvious you know nothing about Farmer, or you wouldn't make such

wild and asinine assumptions. And you continue to do it. Wise people of age don't do that.

[chaumont58]

46. Thank you

It is often one get to hear from an expert on 'wild and asinine assumptions.' You must spend a lot of time listening Rush or O'Reilly.

I will go about my duties with a lighter heart, now.

[Kahuna]

56. Another immature retort to someone you know absolutely nothing

about. :eyes: That's the ticket. Can't win on the facts so call names.

[FogerRox]

78. right on chaumont58

Farmer is carrying DLC water, pure and simple.

[Kahuna]

14. I've been reading Farmer for decades. I have always found

him to be fair and reasonable. While I don't agree with him 100% of the times I can usually learn at least one useful thing from reading him. As you can see from his photo, he is no youngster. Farmer is from the old school of political punditry and knows his stuff. Farmer is a liberal and has been since long before many of you were born. You will not scare him off with your diatribes. He knows enough to expect it. IMHO, Farmer has called this one exactly right. I've been thinking the exact same thing about Dean. We had bushco on the ropes. Then suddenly, bush is up nearly 10 pts in the polls. I'm sure that Bush is thankful to Dean for at least some of his rebound. As Pat Buchanan put it, Dean is the gift that keeps on giving.

[MrBenchley]

17. Exactly right....

[madfloridian]

25. Ah the old Dean gave Bush higher ratings meme. I heard about that one.

That is the biggest bunch of BS I have ever heard. That is because all the little Bushbots can't stand for a big bad Democrat to stand up to them....and Dean did. He criticized their little God Bush. The Democrats did not like it either, they did not want to make waves...after all so many of them still support the war.

Dean was 100% right in every word he said in those several days. The party leaders just did not want an upstart like him, with all the little upstarts who want him to change thing..did not want an upstart to take the lead.

He took the lead...Good for him.

[MrBenchley]

50. LOL!!

"Dean was 100% right in every word he said in those several days."
Was that when Dean blurted out that we couldn't win...or when he started doing damage control and said we could?

[madfloridian]

53. Benchley, nothing you say bothers me anymore.

It reached saturation level long ago. Chirping....

[MrBenchley]

58. Yeah, fact, decency and common sense have never penetrated

your dreary little hate-filled fantasies....

[madfloridian]

61. Sad to see you reach that level of discourse.

.

[MrBenchley]

65. Sadder still

to see the level at which you routinely operate....

[FogerRox]

81. nice one - MrBenchley-:"your dreary little hate-filled fantasies...."

real civil of ya---

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

3. Civility: Treat other members with respect.

[MrBenchley]

108. Fits that poster perfectly....

[Cha]

97. Oh, now you've done it, madfloridian..

getting those dlcs :scared: :scared: :scared: all in a dither.

edit~grammer

[madfloridian]

106. I do that just by getting up in the morning.

I come on here and say boo, and they start bloviating.

[Kahuna]

129. You're so funny. Because you always make every single issue

about either you or Howard Dean. It's amazing how you do that.

[Le Taz Hot]

138. . . .

LeTazHot<--------Getting dictionary . . . "B...L....

:popcorn:

[chaumont58]

79. Fair and Reasonable?

From the column in question:

"Dean should be bound and gagged ... well, gagged anyway."

This is fair and reasonable? By what standard? Rush's? Karl Rove's?

From the column in question:

"The upshot of the year is this: With more than three years of his term still to run and a mountain of problems to face, Bush has lost the confidence and the trust of the country. Even Democrats must realize this is not a good thing. Like him or not, Bush is the face we put forward as a nation to the rest of the world. And if he can't lead, someone else in some other country, like China, or a collection of countries that don't have our interests at heart, such as the European Union, will lead."

This is a DLC position. "We should all love chimpie, because he's the only president we've got" I'm old enough to remember LBJ saying something very similar. Remember that gleam in my father's eye, you speak of with such reckless abandonment.

I'll tell you what, Kahuna, you and I should put each other on the ignore list. I want no further truck with you.

[FogerRox]

91. Kahuna said

Farmer is a liberal

I dissagree

Farmer hides behind BUSH, carries water for BUSH and the DLC---------- you understand how I might think that you are the same

carries water for BUSH and the DLC

[Kahuna]

132. Oh Bull shit! Farmer has been around since

I was a kid and I'm 51! I've been reading him since I was a kid and have always found him to be pretty liberal. He's also honest about the missteps the Democrats make. Always has been. Farmer is a very wise observer of the political establishment. I've always gotten the impression that Farmer is unwed to the party establishment. (any party establishment) That way, he stays objective. Just because you live in NJ doesn't mean you know anything about a decades long staple of the Star Ledger. From your comments you obviously know nothing about him. It's one thing to attack the message. It's quite another to attack the messenger.

What's this nonsense about Farmer hiding behind Bush? WTF does that mean? Can you explain?

[Cha]

92. I find farmer to be an idiot..

[radio4progressives]

93. Oh you think that was DEANS' fault? My Gawd!

I call that cherry picking intelligence to fit the facts around a mean spirited campaign to scape goat the pathetic problems of the DP on to Dean.

Make DEAN the problem for the failures of this party going back decades.

how freaking pathetic.

[FogerRox]

115. ya I know its real pathetic--- are those called

FREEPERS

I say go DR DEAN,

[madfloridian]

23. The Democrats want Dean to hush. Ignore the bloviators. Ignore them.

Please don't let some in this thread upset you. They don't want Bush criticized, might hurt his feelings. They really don't think Howard Dean has a right to speak out, and they for sure don't think we do.

You are right, you know. I have not read that guy's op eds before, but it is pretty obvious he does not want the Democrats getting any power back.

If you follow any threads I have written about the Bull Moose or the DLC, I don't even have to criticize them....I just use their own words.

Dean's statement from San Antonio went out all over the world. Then he got a chance to "reword" just a wee bit the next day on CNN...great interview and powerful. He did not back down.

Then he just kept on telling ways we had to get out of Iraq, on Leno's show...great interview. And in Florida before 2000 cheering people...he got to reiterate that the the Iraq War could not be won this way. We would have to redeploy, and withdraw some troops.

It made the wing of the party who wanted the war for imperialistic purposes absolutely livid...they despise Dean, they despise us.

We are little nothings to be squelched under their big fat thumbs. Ignore them, you are right. The party establishment would rather squash us than win back the congress and White House.

Don't let the bloviators piss you off. They get great joy in it.

[Kahuna]

26. WRONGO!! Nobody is against speaking out against bush and you know it..

It's not that people want to shut Dean up, we just want him to exercise some adult like skill and control in making his/our case.

You all are going to keep this Dean loyalty oath thing going at the risk of every thing and every body. And, I don't get that. Dean is not more important than the nation or the Democratic party as a whole. Unfortunately many of you Dean enthusiasts seem to think he is. That's very sad.

[madfloridian]

27. This has little to do with Dean...it has to do with shutting up truth.

You know it, and I know it. It is about the fact that certain in the party want to play a game called I'll pat your back if you pat mine.

[Kahuna]

31. It has nothing to do with shutting up thruth. It has do with speaking

truth to power in a way that people will want to hear what you have to say. It's an important skill for politicians. Sadly, Dean is lacking that skill.

[madfloridian]

33. Hell, like the way we spoke truth to power all the way to Iraq?

Don't try that crap on me anymore.

[Kahuna]

60. And still I bet if there was election between Dean and Bush today...

I'd bet bush would win. That's reality too. Hope you like it.

[madfloridian]

64. Then that is our fault as well.

So sad to see political correctness rule our party so much.

[Kahuna]

67. LOL! It's not about Dean, okay. It's not about a cult of personality

with the vast majority of Democrats. Dean Smean! We just want to win and we want somebody to help get us there.

[madfloridian]

72. Most of us read and know what is going on. I think we may have to lose.

I am not sure we know how to be winners anymore. You can do your personality cult crap all over, but you know it is foolishness and does not work with me.

[FogerRox]

83. MAD I agree- lot of BUSHIES in this thread & DLCers

[Kahuna]

134. Bushies like in, Nader 2000 voters per chance?

:eyes: Myself and a lot of the people you are calling Bushies and DLCers have been voting for Democrats much longer than you have. So be careful about who you call names.

[radio4progressives]

94. Exactly MF... and Every Body Knows It... N/T

[NYCGirl]

28. You know what's REALLY sad?

That the GOP can call us traitors and cowards and every other name in the book. That they can call Murtha a coward and no one blinks an eye. But have one of ours say something that's absolutely true, like "the war in Iraq is not winnable," and the many in our party run for the hills and shiver in the corner and mouth silly things like, "we have to act like adults." That's what's sad.

[madfloridian]

32. Amen!

:toast:

[Kahuna]

34. What's REALLY sad is the reality of the political landscape in America..

that begat us bush. There is a political reality out there that has us out manned and out gunned. The only way we are going to overcome our disadvantage is to think smarter than the republicans. Sadly we're not doing that.

[NYCGirl]

38. And being, oh so careful about what we say in response is smarter?

Even though a LARGE majority of the public believes that the war in Iraq was a mistake?

[Kahuna]

52. Maybe so, but you people don't get "the" point. I've tried to make

it to you before. But you totally ignore the facts. The fact is that America may disagree with a particular war like they did with Viet Name and now with Iraq, but that doesn't equate to wanting a leader who will cut tail and run when the going gets tough. People compartmentalize the attributes they want in a leader. In bush's case, people know he's a brain addled fuck up, but they like his determination. They (American voters) see that as a strength not a weakness.

[madfloridian]

57. Do NOT say "you people" anymore. It is not acceptable.

I don't like that term.

This is just like Vietnam, and everybody is being stubborn...that was what Dean said.

If the American voters see that as a strength, then our party needs to speak out on the truth.

[Kahuna]

69. Do I care if you like it????

Get a grip. :crazy:

[madfloridian]

95. Get a grip? I have a grip on the truth...something unknown to many.

Oh, trust me. You are the one who needs to get a grip on reality on the ground now.

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[Kahuna]

130. So only YOU know the truth.... Cueing Twilight Zone music...

nt

[NYCGirl]

63. And who asked for "cut tail and run"?

Dean didn't, Murtha didn't, Kerry didn't. (BTW, in case you didn't remember that one of those three who called for the LONGEST time frame to get out of Iraq was Howard Dean.) The GOP tried to characterize it as "cut and run", but that's just twisting it — they'd do that to anything any Democrat short of Lieberman would say.

[FogerRox]

84. Kahuna yeah-- U R soooooo right

not

in


my book

[Andromeda]

107. Dean never said "cut and run."

Wherever did you get the idea that Howard Dean said we should tuck our tails between our legs and split?

He's said numerous times that we need an exit strategy because we don't have a winning strategy. Bush has been criticized over and over again because of his ignorant stubbornness and I don't know anybody who thinks this is a "strength."

You've been watching too much Chris Matthews IMO.

[madfloridian]

42. Because our party is flat out afraid of Bush. That is why.

It has to stop. They have got to say things more powerfully and out loud.

This party does NOT want people who say things clearly. They would rather be cautious and careful and not bruise tender GOP feelings.

[Kahuna]

44. A lot in the party are afraid of HIS MOUTH. Not him. As a person

there is nothing wrong with Howard Dean, and I often agree with his more controversial statements. That doesn't mean that I don't want them put out for consumption in a way that will make people want to move closer to the Democrats instead of further away from us.

[madfloridian]

47. I say thank God someone has a mouth. There was too much silence.

There was silence and consent as we went to war, and there has been too much of it about the torture and white phosphorus. Hey, I bet they'd fire him for that.

I could post what one general said about it, but it would just inflame things worse.

[madfloridian]

51. I edited to clarify they are afraid of Bush.

They just want Dean to shut up, and they want us to go away.

[gulfcoastliberal]

117. Exactly. Just read the DLC blog of marshall Whittman for a real good look

at how they think. He's all for illegal wiretapping and anything else little "war prezidint" wants. He calls the ACLU "feverish" more than once. Check it out for yourselves:

If lefties and some libertarians want to oppose the eavesdropping because they are privacy absolutists, fine. But don't suggest that the President has defiled the Constitution and broken the law. Sometimes judgments are right or wrong and not illegal or unconstitutional. The Moose acknowledges that he is deferential to Presidential powers during wartime. And this President has far from stretched the boundaries of precedents established by past Commanders-in-Chief.

http://www.bullmooseblog.com/2005/12/year-end-musings.html

[Cha]

89. "republicans are the party

of Christian white males".. :scared: :scared: :scared:

[NYCGirl]

96. Right on.

Edited the post, because at first I didn't understand the reference you were making.

That little shivering blue square is the part of the Democratic party who is afraid that the GOP might twist their words. So, of course, they say nothing.

[Cha]

100. Exactly right!

I've been using a lot them on this thread :D

[madfloridian]

30. And the way you guys attacked the OP and defended a reporter...

who said Bush was not doing well because his base was nervous...well, I'm sorry, but that is just too much.

His base is nervous? Oh, hell, me, too. We have half our party still defending this damn war, and a lot of folks here attacking me and everyone else.

[Kahuna]

40. Nobody is attacking you. You're doing the attacking and you keep

trying to conflate seperate issues and make them one. Nice tactic, but it rarely works. Wrong! It works very well for the republcans, but it doesn't work for us.

[madfloridian]

45. Nope, you are just wrong. Call it like it is.

Instead of putting the blame on me, instead of condemning a man who said the truth straight up clearly....realize for once what our party has done. They have allowed Bush to destroy this country, and are only now thinking about speaking up.

I say thank God for people like Howard Dean who don't fear polls anymore.

[Cha]

98. Right! You're Exactly Right,

madfloridian! Dean makes their collective head EXPLODE and they do Delight in pissing off anyone who isn't :scared: like they are.

[madfloridian]

37. To the poster of this thread, don't be intimidated.

Post what you believe. You made a good post, and you were sincere.

No one has to agree with you, and they should not attack you for saying it.

Hang in there.

[FogerRox]

88. NJ 4 D in the house -Mad FL was away for a bit just catchin up

Looks like you were cleaning house madfloridian, ya doin my light work for me--thanks dude. >wink<

Next DLCer that walks into my thread gets it right in the virtual face.

Farmer is a whimp hiding behind BUSH-- thats no liberal.

Howard DEAN is the new Sherrif in town-- got a problem with that? I suggest you leave town - pardner.

Now of course if certain folks came into this thread and said the didnt like Dean that much & Really prefered Hillary, I could understand that.

But thats not what happened, instead folks came into this thread and used some uncivil language targeting other DU members

DFA rocks

[Debi]

71. Why isn't anyone attacking Pelosi? In the article she's held as guilty

as Dean...and she's the leader of our members of the House of Representatives.

I wonder, if we went back through 2002, 2003 and the beginning of 2004 how many articles did Farmer write that were critical of Dean? It certainly would help to know his mindset a little more.

Of course, sometimes it's more fun just to attack Howard Dean because he's Howard Dean. After all, he lost the presidential race long before John Kerry did.

[madfloridian]

75. How very true. They would rather defend the reporter than other Dems.

Now that should tell us something right there.

[Debi]

82. Happy New Year to you Mad...

:hug:

You are wonderful to keep up the fight.

[truthisfreedom]

99. once again, thugs prove that their only answer to questioning the madness

is "SILENCE DISSENT!"

[TallahasseeGrannie]

101. Now that everyone is done fighting

I'll just say this. I'm from NJ. Fifth generation. When somebody from Newark talks about binding and gagging..I lock the doors.

[madfloridian]

102. Hubby is from that area...he is lol at this stupid thread.

He said the binding and gagging would never work there at all. He did get a tear though, because as a boy he delivered that paper. Brought back memories, but the absurdities of this thread brought laughter.

He also delivered the Courier...he can not get over anyone wanting to bind and gag.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

103. I still check out the Courier on line

for the obits.

[madfloridian]

105. Yes, he does as well. Too many of them of friends and family now.

We stay in touch with a lot of Watchung/North Plainfield friends who have moved to Florida, and keep in phone touch with those still there. Still has family in Tom's River.

[FogerRox]

114. lock the doors bar the windows---- LOL

just moved from South Orange to Montclair, my self

[Capn Sunshine]

111. OK. Here's the remark., how is this fucked up?

"The idea that we're going to win the war in Iraq is just plain wrong," Democratic Party Chair Howard Dean told a San Antonio radio show on Monday.

Those who are maintaining thisis a fuckup; you then say the Iraq war can be WON?

HOW? Seriously. HOW DO WE WIN THE WAR IN IRAQ?

Frankly, I think someone is lashing out at the architect because they've painted themselves into a corner.

[FogerRox]

113. yes- exactly-- and when DEAN calls the repubs on it ----- they

hate him for that. And it may be that the DLC contingent dont like DR DEAN speakin the truth either. Considering that the DLC is considered the corporate supported wing of the democratic party.

I mean dont get me wrong-- if its '08-- election day-- & its Cheney and Hillary- I'd vote for Hillary-- (choking) BVut in the mean time, I will consider going across the river to NY to work for Hillarys DEM primary opppenent.

[Capn Sunshine]

116. Funny how articulate they can be until you ask for some truth from them

I really want to know, how do we WIN in Iraq?

Did I miss a course at Naval War College?

[FogerRox]

118. DAmn UR un american we have to stay the corse-- good god man

dont you see it?


tongue in cheek-- of course

[Kahuna]

131. Here's the deal. It used to be called the "Rope-a-Dope." Emphasis..

on the Dope. Since bushco has never officially declared what victory will mean, he can change the goal post at any time, and declare victory tomorrow. That's his MO. THAT's what he does. He will then have the media repeat his victory theme ad naseum until the clueless American public accepts it as fact. In the meantime the Dems are on record as being "anti-victory." It's just another set up by the bushies. Dean should know better.

[MrBenchley]

137. How is it NOT a fuckup ten ways from Sunday??

Even Dean knew it was a fuckup, which is why he began doing damage control almost immediately.

[depakid]

127. NJ : Star Ledger- Republicans win 7th congressional election

Democratic leadership Caucus unrepentant.

[xchrom]

128. lol -- a lot of excitement in this thread -- that i know of -- dean didn't

say anything that wasn't true -- military people have pointed out the the presence of the u.s. in iraq is a destabilizing factor?

hello? our very presence there continues, aids and abets the very thing bush claims to be fighting -- how did dean say ANYTHING wrong?

if the gop and the media are jumping all over dean -- then dean is probably doing his job.

repukes don't worry about taking heat for the far more outrageous shit they say.

they are smart enough to take the free p.r. and run with it.