Clark is a more experienced politician than Dean

[MIMStigator]

Dean fans say Clark has no political experience. Working with the tempers and egos and idealogies in the military and from other COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CULTURES around the world is a hell of a lot harder than working with tempers and egos in the vermont state house.

I think Clark knows how a bill becomes a law too. So what kind of experience does Dean have that Clark doesn't have?

[dsc]

1. Having someone tell him to drop dead

and not being able to order him to siberia.

[bearfartinthewoods]

23. running for election

duh...

[amyforclark04]

73. Actually

I believe JFK was from Massachusetts.

[boxster]

32. Siberia?

The KGB used to send people to Siberia. So, unless there's some phantom KGB-Clark link that no one in the world is aware of except for you, I'd say that you have your government/military organizations confused.

If all you're going to do is post negative one-liners in every Clark thread, please try to at least keep to topics that you know something about. Otherwise, it looks kind of silly.

[KittyWampus]

60. Oh NO! The Phantom Clark/KGB Link Has Been Exposed

Darn... well, Clark blew his cover when he admitted his favorite movie was Dr. Zhivago.

[Demobrat]

2. I admit

Dean's never killed anyone. Clark's got it all over him in that regard.

[MIMStigator]

3. Dean never saved 1,500,000 lives

and we don't know if his policies killed anyone. He's hiding his records.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

4. How can he hide what isn't his?

His records now belong to the court, and Dean has said numerous times that he welcomes an independent judge reviewing his records (which is exactly what is happening right now) and allowing any that won't hurt anyone to go public.

How many times are you going to hold on to that one arguement that doesn't hold water?

[MIMStigator]

7. Dean has not said "open the records" and he lied about reason for hiding

said he was protecting people like AIDS patients when his campaign already said he was hiding them for political reasons and the next day it was reported he had already released letters with that kind of information.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

21. Again, he CANNOT

say that, as the records are being held by the court and now it's their decision alone, no matter what Dean would request, to release any records they wish. It's completely out of his hands, and he's said he welcomes any records that the judge releases to be made public.

[TorchTheWitch]

76. because it DOES hold water

and I'm REALLY getting tired of explaining it:

Dean STILL can open the records HIMSELF. He has put it into the hands of the judge for the SOLE purpose of continuing to refuse to open them HIMSELF.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A57807-2003Dec11?language=printer
<snip>
Responding to the mounting criticism, Dean said this week that he would leave the matter up to the judge in the Judicial Watch lawsuit. Deputy Secretary of State William A. Dalton, whose staff oversees the archives, said a decision could be months away, but he is preparing his staff for the possibility that the court, or Dean himself, will make some documents available sooner.

Fitton, of Judicial Watch, said that Dean is trying to delay the process. Last year, three Vermont newspapers sued for access to Dean's schedules. It took several months for a judge to rule that some should be made public. "It is clearly a stall tactic to say, 'Let the judge decide,' " Fitton said. "Once people realize that, the pressure to open them up himself will increase."
<end snip>

*Tom Fitton is Judicial Watch President
http://www.judicialwatch.org/3536.shtml


Further, Dean had no legal standing to seal those records to begin with. As per the lawsuit:

http://www.judicialwatch.org/cases/107/deancomp.htm

<snip>

This action seeks Defendants' compliance with the Vermont Access to Public Records Act, 1 V.S.A. §§ 315 to 320. Defendants have steadfastly refused to disclose hundreds of thousands of pages of public records and papers of former Vermont Governor and current United States presidential candidate, Dr. Howard Dean, based solely on an unsupported, blanket claim of "executive privilege" as memorialized in a "Memorandum of Understanding" that Dr. Dean negotiated with the other Defendants. However, some five months before officially announcing his candidacy for president, Dr. Dean acknowledged (on Vermont Public Radio) that this secrecy is motivated by "future political considerations" and the desire to prevent "anything embarrassing appearing in the papers at a critical time in any future endeavor." This is not a legitimate basis for refusing to release public documents.

...

Vermont's Access to Public Records Act declares: "Officers of government are trustees and servants of the people and it is in the public interest to enable any person to review and criticize their decisions even though such examination may cause inconvenience or embarrassment." 1 V.S.A. § 315. The Act permits "ny person" to "inspect or copy any public record or document...." 1 V.S.A. § 316.

...

There is no Vermont statute or other law that authorizes a governor (or anyone else, for that matter) to enter into a "Memorandum of Understanding" as a means of preventing public review of a governor's official correspondence.

<end snip>

Read the suit and look up the cited laws.

[Demobrat]

11. We'll never know how many lives he saved

with his prescription drug for seniors, health care and early childhood intervention plans. We do know that child abuse decreased substantially.

[MIMStigator]

14. Chicken pox isn't the same as genocide

eom

[Demobrat]

18. Dead is dead.

eom

[liberalnurse]

15. Silly thought that was indeed.....

Dean is a Physician.......

[JVS]

30. I can just see the new Robert Conquest book "Maple Syrup of Sadness"...

in which he claims that Dean's policies caused 50-million citizens of Vermont to perish in a sales-tax related syrup famine. And the Dean opponents would eat this book right up.

[dajabr]

5. Can't wait until Congress gets brought up on charges...

For not following a direct order from The General.

I'd say, being able to pull rank made it MUCH easier for Clark to "work" with his subordinates - oh, sorry...constituency.

Please...

[MIMStigator]

8. Clark never had to take orders? hahahaa

eom

[dajabr]

9. See, it is different than being an ELECTED official...

Isn't it?

[KittyWampus]

61. The Funds Clark Procured For Programs Went Through Congress

Example, He testified before Congress about funding for Education.

[HFishbine]

6. Winning elective office, for one (n/t)

[MIMStigator]

10. More generals who never won office have won presidency than vermont gov's

eom

[HFishbine]

12. Just answering your question

Sorry you didn't like the answer.

[Larkspur]

25. Except for Andrew Jackson, the other generals didn't have to really

campaign. Grant and Ike rode their military popularity into the White House.

Andrew Jackson, a Democrat, had made the transistion from the military to the civilian realm by becoming involved in his state's politics and by becoming Tennessee's first US Rep. Jackson lost his first bid as President in a similar fashion that Al Gore did. For 6 months after that lost, Jackson accepted defeat, but after Henry Clay, who had been Speaker of the House and overseer of the Presidential tie-breaker votes, was named Secretary of State by John Q Adams, Jackson and his followers cried "Bargain and corruption!" and Jackson launched a massive rebuilding of the Democratic Party into a Populist Progressive force and led the civilian insurgency that unseated Adams in 1828.

In many ways and in an ironic twist, the civilian political leader, Howard Dean, is following a similar path that Andrew Jackson took, especially in regards to reorganizing the Democratic Party and leading a civilian political insurgency against the Beltway Dems and Bush. Like Jackson, Dean has the foresight and the strength of seasoned civilian political leadership to lead his Party back into power.

[artr2]

47. Great Post !!!

NT

[MGKrebs]

54. Ahh, but...more generals from Arkansas?

[DFLforever]

13. You don't get to order the voters around

You have to persuade them to back you.

[MIMStigator]

16. You have to persuade world leaders to back you.

harder to do than persuading average voter

[DFLforever]

20. Could be, but world leaders aren't the key to winning the 2004 election

or getting your legislative programs passed.

[Donna Zen]

17. BTW

Wellstone loved Clark...had a party for him in the Iron Range, and understood what a sacrifice Clark had made for a humanitarian intervention.

[DFLforever]

22. So...?

[Larkspur]

19. Gov. Dean was re-elected 5 times as Governor by the People of Vermont

and he had to battle opponents from both the Left and Right to win. His last re-election bid gave him the campaign experience he will need to defeat the well-funded Rightwing machine in 2004.

Unlike Clark, Gov Dean's political career started from the bottom of the Democratic Party structure. His first taste of politics was licking stamps for Jimmy Carter's re-election campaign in 1980. That stint and his ability to relate to both the Carter and Kennedy supporters got him the position of Dem Committee chairperson for his county. From that post, he launched his first bid as state rep, then he went onto lieutenant governor and Fate finaly pushed him into the Governor's office in 1991.

Dean has that innate ability to give confidence to anxious people in trying times. He did that for the people of Vermont after Gov. Snelling died, and Dean, the relatively unknown and untested governor, assumed the highest office in the state. Dean is exercising that innate ability now with his Party's base, who were angry and anxious at Bush's agenda being rammed down our throats with minimal opposition from our elected Democratic leaders. Just watch and listen to his March 2003 speech to the CA State Dem convention. That speech was about confirming the Dem base's concerns and offering hope for change within the Party and our country.

Dean also has the ability to make bad situations better -- turning deficits into surpluses and the worse bond rating into the best in New England -- and getting re-elected.

Clark has never run for civilian elected office. Trying to get civilians to support you is like herding cats. Ordering soldiers, who have taken an oath to obey, is not the same as building a civilian political support base, which can desert you quicker than you can earn its support.

Clark has never won or lost a bid, and his current campaign is stalling and starting to enter that graveyard spiral that Kerry's is in. As I said before, if Clark can't defeat Dean in the Primaries, he has no hope to defeat Bush in the general election.

[neuvocat]

24. Dean wasn't drafted.

Clark was asked to run for President.

[dfong63]

26. so what - Clark instigated and encouraged the "draft" from the start

[JVS]

50. Yeah it looked like a big publicity stunt

[Larkspur]

70. Well, that Draft Clark enthusiasm seems to have been disspated

His campaign is now run by Washington Clintonistas who helped screw up the 2002 election and Clark's poll numbers are leveling off or beginning their descent.

[dfong63]

27. Clark's foreign policy experience consists of making war on countries

that's not what i'd consider the best background for a president.

[bowens43]

28. Dean has civilian political experience, Clark has none.

You seem to forget that Clark was a general. He had no reason to compromise anyone.IMO military 'experience' would be a detriment to a civilian government.

[edzontar]

29. This is just silly...

Clark was a military officer.

He was a politician in that sense, especially in his diplomatic capacity.

You might also mention that he voted for Reagan.

Twice.

I voted for Carter and Mondale in those elections.

I am younger than Gen. Clark, but somehow I knew better.

[KittyWampus]

63. Did You Ever Have People Call You A Baby Killer

for serving in the United States Military?

Because a great many Leftwingers did just that back in the day... no matter if they were enlisted or no.

But then, Clark makes it quite clear that he was proud to support the protestors right to say whatever they wanted.

And he has also said "Republicans like weapons systems and Democrats like people".

He has proposed cutting the Pentagon Budget.

He's one of two candidates who can accomplish the necessary task of reining in the MIC.

[robbedvoter]

31. I'd say holding 19 nations together as SACEUR shows some skill

But then , this would be foreign policy - and we are not allowed to talk about that on DU, were we?

[shivaji]

33. All kkk Rove has to do is run commercial of Clark praising *

and these video's of Clark are ready and available. Is there some one an ounce of rational thinking who thinks this will not de-energize and confuse our base voters?

Dean has no such vdeo's for Rove to use.

[FrenchieCat]

37. Your rational makes no sense....

Clark can run his own commercial of HIMSELF praising the Bush team in their hopes of what they would hopefully accomplish in EUROPE....During the General election, Clark via a commercial will intimately tell the average "numbskull" voter, that he too was fooled by the Bush administration...but after seeing (show unemployment lines, bombs in Iraq, the deficit shooting up)them in action, I believe that Americans now deserve better. We may have been fooled once, but we shall not be fooled again!!!!

So the video of Clark can actually be used against Bush very effectively.....making millions of GOP members vote Clark...knowing that there is not stigma attached to it...and that everyone can be fooled.......

I have already sent in the idea to Matt Bennett.

[Patriot_Spear]

38. You're right. GOP Ad- Clark: "President Bush* is doing a great job..."

They'll blast it out on the TV and radio 24/7- and his campaign will be completely emasculated.

[JVS]

34. Not yet, but soon he will be more experienced at having his ass kicked

[Patriot_Spear]

35. Wow. Bit of stretch here don't you think?

:crazy:

[Hoppin_Mad]

36. Not a personal attack, but

Do you really think your incessant attacks on Dean and praise of Clark are doing anything other than leaving a bad taste in the mouths of everyone except the most fervent Clark worshippers ?

Do you think you're helping the Clark cause with your actions ?

Thank you.

Respectfully,

Hoppin Mad

[Legate]

39. ...

Are not both the Clark and Dean supporters tired of attacks against eachother?

[Donna Zen]

40. That road goes both ways

[edzontar]

41. They have certainly hardened my Dean support

And made me MUCH less interested in Clark.

The nihilistic doomsday scenarios posted every hour by Clark advocates have just worn me down.

I am ready to start my very own, Marcus-inspired, "Stop Clark Movement," just to annoy them.

[JVS]

45. I'll join

I like Kucinich better than Dean, but Dean is worthy of support

[Kool Kitty]

58. And the "Dean is messiah" posts

have worn ME down. It cuts both ways. And both sides are guilty of this. BOTH sides.

[JVS]

43. I supported Kucinich before this hardcore Dean bashing.

I still do, I'll vote for him if I can, but Dean is my #2 and Clark is my #8. There is no way in hell that I'm going to let #8 beat #2. So now I am a Dean supporter too.

[QC]

65. You should ask yourself the same question.

And then think about it hard. Real hard.

The nastiness goes both ways here, and you have done your share of shit-stirring, which makes your outraged virtue act a bit unconvincing.

Most of the animosity here is caused by a very small number of relentlessly negative people who favor a number of different candidates. Anyone who thinks it all goes one way needs to think again.

[IndianaGreen]

42. You never worked for a general, haven't you?

The politics in the military are similar in some respects to the politics inside a corporation.

They are not at all alike to politics, which requires building coalitions, working towards a consensus, compromises that are at times painful, and an occasional defeat.

Your argument is flimsy at best.

This is not to detract from Clark's other strong points.

[TorchTheWitch]

77. now that's interesting

They are not at all alike to politics, which requires building coalitions, working towards a consensus, compromises that are at times painful, and an occasional defeat.

You just described Clark's experience as SACEUR.

[goobergunch]

44. Does Clark know about Motions to Waive the CBA?

:P ;)

[farmbo]

46. Experience in governing by consensus instead of issuing Orders, for one

Clark has a great military resume...makes Bush look like a pipsqueak.

But you can't honestly derive civilian political and governing experience from his military career; distinguished though it may be.

If Clark's opponents failed to comply with his orders; he could (and often did) blow them up.
As acrimonious as the Vermont statehouse may seem during budget negotiations, air strikes were never an option.

[Donna Zen]

72. Wow!

By saying something like this:

If Clark's opponents failed to comply with his orders; he could (and often did) blow them up.

I just shake my head and quake. Little wonder the military is becoming a new wing of the GOP if Democrats understand so little of what they actually do.

Clark worked in the White House for three years. He has sat through the morning briefings, he knows the territory.

[xrepub]

48. If experience is #1 vote ?

Stop these foolish arguements. If experience was our first priority we should vote for bush. I hope that shows how ridiculous this squabbling is.

[stickdog]

49. Different cultures?

You mean like the military culture?

[WillyT]

51. Oh... Double Poop !!!

:hurts::hurts:

[Myra]

52. Not to worry! Dean can plug that hole in his resume w a running mate!

Quote Unquote.

God we are so doomed if Dean becomes the right wing's fall guy.

[burning bush]

53. False Assumption

Just because being a General may be harder than being a Governor (not saying it is, just following the concept for the sake of argument) doesn't mean that Clark has political experience.

It's easy enough to work with people in the military that disagree with you.

If you outrank them, they follow your ORDERS.

If they outrank you, you follow their ORDERS.

That's what it boils down to, that's discipline.

It's admirable to be discipled, but it isn't political experience.

[RetroLounge]

55. Yeah, and bush* rode to power on his corporate

credentials, right? Running a corporation is like politics, right?

"So what kind of experience does Dean have that Clark doesn't have?"

actually running and winning elections, comes to mind...

:boring:

[RetroLounge]

56. Hold on, I had another thought on this...

but I can't type because I just re-read the original post and now I can't stop laughing my ass off... Whatta freaking stretch that logic was. :crazy: Oh yeah, now I remember...


"I think Clark knows how a bill becomes a law too"

and is that because he owns his own copy of School House Rock? :shrug:

"I'm just a bill..."

[goobergunch]

57. Check out post #44

That's how the Medicare Destruction bill got passed...the CBA Waiver was successful in the Senate.

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

59. It becomes obvious

in reading this thread that many folks have never taken the time to learn anything about the opposition candidates.

It's almost comical. Instead of actually studying the positions or taking the time to watch & listen to the other candidates, people will let the press, their next door neighbor and the family dog set their "opinions".

It's no wonder the dems are pulling each other apart at the seams. And no wonder we have Bush & Co running (ruining) the country.

[Scott Lee]

62. And Bush* Got through Harvard with straight A's

What else goes on in this strange Alice in Wonderland type world?

[mouse7]

64. Yeah... He worked real well with Hugh Shelton.

I don't know what the story is between those to. I hear Shelton is the one who is outta line. However, Clark did something that made an important person like Shelton HATE him. So much so that Clark's military career ended because of it.

That's not a playing good Pentagon politics.

[webkev]

66. they never worked together

not once did they ever even work near each other..

shelton obviously backs someone else for commander in chief

[mouse7]

69. Ohhh... they sure did work together

Shelton was Chair of the Joint Chiefs when Clark was Commander of NATO

The former general is known for his transparent attempts to seek attention and manipulate the media. During the build up to the months of bombing in the Kosovo campaign, he sought airtime with the likes of Tom Brokaw and Christiane Amanpour, until his media showboating frayed the patience of his superiors. Defense Secretary William Cohen told Clark, through Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Hugh Shelton, "Get your f***ing face off the TV." Gen. Shelton has since made it clear he would not endorse Clark’s candidacy due to character issues, which Clark attributed to professional jealousy."

http://www.brokennewz.com/displaystory.asp_Q_storyid_E_680clarkcuss

[bitchkitty]

67. My mother is a more experienced

politician than Clark. But then this isn't a Clark thread, is it? It's yet another thread for you to complain about Dean. The day you say something positive about Clark without slamming Dean, it will rain ice cubes in hell.

[littlejoe]

68. In my humble opinion,

I think that's a bunch of poo poo.

[MoonRiver]

71. I'd say managing an international army and all the collective

egotistical heads of state qualifies General Clark as a FIRST RATE politician. Plus, he accomplished this while fighting a battle against the forces of genocide, without losing a single American life.

Bottom line: would I feel safer if Clark were President? YES!

[Myra]

74. Dean can answer that, in his own words:

"The Democratic presidential candidate says his running mate will be well-versed in foreign policy and defense."

"I need to plug that hole on the resume, and I'm going to do that with my running mate."

That's what he has that Clark doesn't have.
A hole in his resume where "foreign policy and defense" should be.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-dean22dec22,1,2428575.story?coll=la-headlines-nation

[eileen_d]

75. If any quote kills Dean, it's gonna be that one.

No, I'm not saying Bush* has any credibility on defense either. But this is a classic "off-the-cuff" comment from Dean that is going to haunt him.

Come on, folks... with "straight-shooting" like this from Dean, who needs Rove?