Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

My problem with the DLC...

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:18 AM
Original message
My problem with the DLC...
OK, I'll admit, in the past I was somewhat ambiguous of the DLC, namely because of Al From, but I decided to actually look at the website and look at what their issues are and find out what they are about, basically.

BTW this is their website:

www.dlc.org

Feel free to peruse it and make up your own minds. OK, so I'm going to make some cites from the site(I'm a poet and I didn't even know it.;)). The format, for easy reading is that the cites will be in italics, certain sections emphasized by bold. The emphasis by me only, of course. Followed by a direct link to the article in question. I will follow the Copyright rules of the 3 paragraph limit for each article, so no problems there, I hope.

OK, Problem number one I have with the DLC, using Right Wing framing of issues, I'll give an example of this below, and also why it undercuts Democratic messages and also, in some cases, is extremely inaccurate factually.

The academic standards of most states make reference to religion and religious history, but in practice teachers are reluctant to take these issues on in any depth. Educators are understandably worried about attacks and lawsuits from organizations and advocacy groups at the extremes of the ideological spectrum that are too ready to pounce on perceived adversaries with even the flimsiest cause. In addition, there is insufficient training, curriculum support, and resources for teachers who wish to tackle these issues in any depth. Frequently, what does exist is milquetoast at best because it is sanitized for any hint of controversy or political correctness. This curricular problem touches many subjects, as the education historian Diane Ravitch recently documented in The Language Police: How Pressure Groups Restrict What Students Learn.

Too often, moreover, the political right dominates discussions about religion. And its agenda focuses on prayer in school, displays of religious symbols and religious expression, and school vouchers, rather than ensuring that students have a solid understanding of the world's major religions, as well as a capacity to intelligently discuss the role of religion in politics and global affairs.

At their core, many of these issues are largely resolved. Under the leadership of then-U.S. Secretary of Education Richard W. Riley, during the Clinton administration, a range of religious groups and experts developed guidelines for religious expression in public schools. But it is the practical application of these guidelines by teachers, particularly when it comes to social studies curricula, that presents the greater challenge.


http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=252306&kaid=110&subid=181

OK, my first question for the author of this article is, who are these "ideological extremists" that are suing schools left and right for the meer mention of religion? The ACLU, a TRADITIONAL civil rights organization, or Americans United For the Separation of Church and State, run by a minister, of all people, are NOT extremist organizations! He developed a straw man, and knocked it down, for no other reason that I can see, except to try to earn brownie points with the Religious Right. Now, my second emphasis is important, because it is inaccurate at best, first neither Clinton nor his Education Secretary set up the guidelines, the Supreme Court did, years ago, through, oddly enough, lawsuit resolutions. Religion is to be presented in public schools in a BALANCED way, with no restrictions on students free excercise of religion, nor are teachers to lead prayers, nor are schools to give RELIGIOUS lessons themselves as if they were sectarian. Pretty simple rules, schools still suffer from Administrators in cover your ass mode, but they are usually dealt with through the ACLU suing them for keeping religious expression out of school.

Like I said, this is one example, here's another covering basically the same thing but is more blatant in inaccuracies, etc.
http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=252572&kaid=127&subid=170

Now that just covered framing, which weakens the arguments of Democrats altogether because it muddles the issues to those swing voters we are trying to get. Best to differentiate.

I also have problems with some of their policy positions, but also their unwarranted attacks on opponents to those policies. I'll give yet another example with another hot button issue "Free" Trade. OK, first example coming up, right about now:

Second, the United States has a tangible political and moral stake in our partners' success. All six today are peaceful, democratic nations -- and bipartisan American trade policy deserves some of the credit. The Caribbean Basin Initiative, a trade preference program dating back to 1985, helped bring new urban industries to Santo Domingo, Managua, San Salvador, San Pedro Sula, and many other Central American and Dominican cities. Central American clothing factories now employ about half a million people, and often provide the first jobs for hundreds of thousands of young women moving out of impoverished villages. This source of employment has helped Central America make a crucial transition from the wars, armed insurgencies, and military repression that characterized the region in the 1980s.

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=108&subid=127&contentid=253383

OK, correct me if I'm wrong, but in the United States, but isn't the minimum age requirement for young people to work in this nation the age of 16? This is excluding farm workers of course. So Basically the DLC is lauding the "success" that 13 year old girls and under work in factories for over 12 hours a day under armed guard? I'm supposed to support this for what reason again? Also, who supported those armed insurgencies and other violence in Central American during the 1980s again? Wouldn't that impoverish the villages, destroy democracy, ad nauseum? Also, why were these insurgencies supported, oh yeah, for FREE trade, smashing success there. :sarcasm: I like how they said they hope the workers right's provisions are enforced properly, its toward the end, kinda thrown in as an afterthought, at least to me.

OK, if you think that idiocy isn't enough, here is a good example, again about Free Trade:

The story continues: We now live in a global economy, created by trade agreements like the North American Free Trade Agreement and enforced by the World Trade Organization. This global economy leaves workers jobless at home and exploited abroad, as businesses escape to poor countries where they pay lower wages and ignore environmental laws. The opening of our borders, meanwhile, has exposed families to pollution and unsafe food. America's government has failed to respond, blocked abroad by the WTO and perverted at home by business wealth. But the people know what is going on. Some day their government will have to listen.
(snip)
The argument has force and emotional appeal. Since the Clinton administration departed, it has visibly gained ground. Shrinking Democratic support in Congress for trade agreements is one sign. So is the adoption of mild versions of this story by the Gore and Kerry campaigns in 2000 and 2004, presumably in the hope that trade skepticism would appeal in Ohio and the Carolinas.

But the story is wrong. Factually speaking, it is badly mistaken. Data, though duller than narrative, speak loudly against stories of decline and decay. Even with the weak economic policies of the last five years and the spectacular emergence of China and India as industrial challengers, America's economy is larger than it was 20 years ago, and more Americans are on the job. Since the NAFTA went into effect in 1994, American gross domestic product has grown by $6 trillion, businesses have added 19.2 million new private-sector jobs, manufacturing production has risen by almost $500 billion, and average unemployment rates have dropped by one point. Nor, to state the obvious, was America self-sufficient before NAFTA.


http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=108&subid=206&contentid=253726

OK, they throw in a lot of big numbers in here, so let's break it down, OK, so, they gave a 20 year mark, so that is what I'll use, back in 1980, we had a labor force of about 109,980,000 people, of which about 7,637,000 were unemployed, that's about a 7% unemployment rate. Fast forward to 2006 (Year to Date), labor force is now up to 149,600,667 with about 7,518,333 unemployed, that's about a 5% unemployment rate. OK, this is actually BETTER than their somewhat outdated report, but a few things, I feel, are missing, first, the total amount of workers unemployed, in raw numbers, hasn't decreased in the slightest, we just added about 50 million people and able to find them jobs. Another thing, that is totally missing from this article is the QUALITY of the jobs that are available. OK, they talk about raw earnings, the GDP growth, however, this gives you NOTHING as to how the AVERAGE worker lives, earnings by Corporations have increased over 700% in the same time period, and worker's wages have been totally stagnant, not even keeping up with cost of living. I don't give a shit about GDP growth in the slightest, someone gets diagnosed with leukemia and the GDP goes up, that, to me, means that having it grow could be a BAD thing as well. So the conclusion is that Free trade has I guess, allowed the US economy to keep up with its population growth, if just barely. Wow, what a SMASHING success! :sarcasm: Let's not talk about Unions shrinking, along with wages and benefits, that would be a BAD thing. Remember, FREE trade is good, no matter the consequences!
BTW raw data on unemployment is here:

http://www.nidataplus.com/lfeus1.htm

Now, another thing that pisses me off, that you would see in the DLC article, and that is the smearing of the opponents to their version of free trade, I say their version because theirs is not the only model, and it can be argued that it is a total failure. You know what, they wouldn't have these protests from "college students" if they didn't like, oh I don't know, protect human rights in these agreements. But hell, they barely even MENTION them in their position articles, so why should I support them? The odd thing is that they have been debunked, they pulled out the canard that us "obstructionists" to this "wave of the future" that they call free trade want to return to old fashioned protectionism. Yet, what happens in Third World nations that stand up to things like FTAA or CAFTA, they form their OWN free trade agreements, with stipulations for human and worker rights being STRONGLY protected, free movement of peoples between nations, you know freeing up labor with capital, and basically are using the EU for their model, not NAFTA. Food for thought, to say the least.

OK, I'm done, its late at night, I'm going to bed, and if anyone wants to respond, I'll respond in the morning.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
1. Very good analysis
I'm going to bed myself, but I'll bookmark your thread for more study tomorrow. I'm working a congressional campaign, and we're not DLC fans. We incorporate some of these same arguments in our campaign.

Good work, and check out www.johnrussellforcongress.com
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
snowbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
2. Some of the DLC I like, some I don't... I don't dwell on them....
I like Rham Emanuel for example when he's in front of a crowd. He's excellent in off-the-cuff interviews.



I'd like to see him in Pelosi's position for a while, just because the guy can sell freezers to eskimos. He's an eloquent spokesperson that holds the attention of anyone he happens to be addressing.

I like Nancy Pelosi. But as far as effectiveness, she worries me. She continually bats her eyes and stumbles her words.. Why?

At this point in our time, we need someone out there that is a true spitfire Democrat. If Rham's the guy that can get the point across, step aside for a while Nancy. We seriously need that message out there CONTINUOUSLY for the next 5 straights months. Rahm holds the attention of a crowd like no one else.

Take advantage of his unique abilities!



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. Then tell him to disassociate with the DLC...
The DLC is an organization that slanders and misrepresents the BASE of the Democratic party, tell him that he should no longer be associated with them. What would it hurt? 90% of the electorate don't even KNOW the DLC exists, they aren't NEEDED.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:52 AM
Response to Original message
3. DLC are in bed with the neocons
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
snowbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. You're catagarizing....... Not ALL of them are..
Edited on Sat May-13-06 01:57 AM by larissa
Granted they are the moderate-middle, but they have some Democratic members that we're going to need like hell to get through this 2006 election.

I'll worry about which DLC'ers lean too far to the right after we've declared major victory on the morning after the November election.

For now, I'm not wasting my time nit-picking about them -- SORRY.

We're all in this together and we need like hell to WIN!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
xxqqqzme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. for me, the PPI site is as scary as PNAC.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:04 AM
Response to Original message
6. The DLC is a cancer on the Democratic party
The party once known as the only true representative of labor.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
snowbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Some are ..... Many are not.
Can you list all of the DLC members that you feel are a cancer, verses the ones you find highly effective?

Exacly which of those affiliated in anyway with them are you having problems with?


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. It's not the individuals. It's the theory
The DLC "theory" is based on two facts, and two facts only:

1) Successful campaigns cost a lot of money.

2) Corporations are happy to give candidates that money to make it happen.

And then those corporations own the candidates. It's not that hard to understand.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
snowbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Yep....
Edited on Sat May-13-06 02:36 AM by larissa
And when we win back both seats (in November) with the helps of DLC'ers like Rahm Emanuel, Harold Ford, Jr., Mark Warner, Bob Casey, etc...

Then trust me.. We're going to finally be in a position to start being more selective in our own party; slowly moving our party away from "Hillary's righthand corner" and directly back on course!

That is.. when we boot a few, add a few, demote a few, promote a few..

Until then, we need to WIN baby WIN!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. "...and when we win..." Sorry, but I'm old and I've heard that before
The last time we "won" we ended up with the Telecom bill and NAFTA.

Nice try, but it won't fly with the geezer crowd. The DLC "theory" is nothing but a blatant attempt to further purge the voter rolls. The Repubs do it by making all crimes felonies, the Dems do it by refusing to support labor, universal health care, and wage protections.

Both parties will be fighting to the death to convert the last 10 voters in the country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
snowbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Okey Dokey Artichokie... whatever..
Sleep tight!

(I'm dozing on the keyboards.. .. see ya next time fello' DU'er! )
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #9
27. We're not going to win by being pro-free trade and low corp taxes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:57 AM
Response to Original message
12. excellent analysis
Edited on Sat May-13-06 04:09 AM by Douglas Carpenter
Many liberals and progressives make the mistake of thinking that the DLC is "right-wing" the same way the right-wing of the Republican Party is right-wing. This is not correct at all. If you check the voting record of leading DLC members of the House or Senate you will see that their voting records on such matters as pro-choice, gay rights or other social issues are about the same as the voting record of leading liberal/progressive members of Congress.

My main problems with the DLC is:

1. The attempt to marginalize progressive voices within the Democratic Party and to represent mainstream opinion regarding trade issues, single-payer universal health care and matters of war and peace as extreme positions. When the evidence shows that they if anyone is out of the mainstream. Their positions on the most important issues are simply put; fringe positions.

2. They embrace an albeit modified form of neoliberal economic ideology and believe it should be imposed on the third world who do not want it because of the devastating consequences it has on the third world as a whole; fueling inflation, disposing the peasantry from their land--creating a new commercial class for the benefit of the few at the cost of the vast overwhelming majority. The only place where the Orwellian named "free trade" is less popular than the rust belt of northeastern United States is in the developing world -- the very people who would be the greatest theoretical beneficiaries.

3. On foreign policy they live in their own little tin soldier-video game fantasy land. They just don't understand that the world does not want and the American people do not an imperial America that is in a never ending series of military conflicts while the social contract and social fabric of American society disintegrates on an over-bloated budget that as as former President Eisenhower described as "so wasteful it weakens the nation". They just don't get it. I am very much afraid that America could be led astray into an even more disastrous imperial war in the Middle East or elsewhere not by a Republican President but by a DLC Democrat President.



http://www.dontattackiran.org
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
13. OK, I slept in, but said I would kick this, so I am. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
15. I consider the DLC like my mother,
often with nothing nice to say, mind-numbingly ignorant but strongly opinionated, sometimes an embarrassment

... yet still family.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. More like an abusive parent...
best to get away from, quickly, for your own health.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I did, when I was 17.
A long time ago. Thanks for the advice, though. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
18. SSDD
"who are these "ideological extremists" that are suing schools left and right for the meer mention of religion?"
Yeah. that was what the DLC said...no wait, they said "organizations and advocacy groups at the extremes of the ideological spectrum that are too ready to pounce on perceived adversaries with even the flimsiest cause."

Nonetheless, if you want to know "who are these "ideological extremists" that are suing schools left and right for the meer mention of religion?" you might look at a charming little bunch called the American Center for Law and Justice.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Err, your argument doesn't hold up...
It would make sense if the sentence in question was talking about the Lack of mention of religion, but it doesn't. When I read it, I perceived that they were talking about the ACLU and AU, no more no less. the ACLJ are a Christian "Rights" group that would sue if you failed to mention Christianity at school, not the reverse, his whole paragraph was predicated on the reverse. So there is the destruction of your argument there, how about critiquing the rest of my post, or agree with it, but I'm asking too much from a DLC lock stepper.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Considering what a pantload the first part was
Edited on Sat May-13-06 02:49 PM by MrBenchley
I see little reason to waste time on the rest of your dreary mess.....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. See, that's the difference between you and me...
Unlike you, I actually decided to look at what they are writing, and critiqued it with something OTHER than simpler derision, having an intelligent debate based on this is essential to a vibrant democracy. If you can't even support your argument on its own merits, how are you to even attempt to win votes, I mean really, as far as I can tell, you contribute nothing to the debate. It would be best if you actually, oh, I don't know, dissuaded me from my opinions, I mean, really, its not like I'm dogmatic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Which is why I can quote what the DLC ACTUALLY said...
and you have to distort what was said (and ignore political reality) to even have a point.

"having an intelligent debate based on this"
Irony is SUCH a wonderful thing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Problem is that it didn't debunk my argument...
You cannot say with certainty that the author didn't mean the ACLU or AU, he constructed a strawman due to ommission, that was my argument, your post actually PROVED that because you thought he mean the ACLJ. He could have worded it better, like specifying those on the right wing extremes only, that would at least be a little more specific. Instead I guess he tried to be all things to all people, and defeats his own argument because of it. The key to political speech is to be CLEAR in your meaning so misunderstandings do NOT occur. He failed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. It sure did...
"The key to political speech is to be CLEAR in your meaning"
Says the guy who "was somewhat ambiguous of the DLC"....like I said, irony is SUCH a wonderful thing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Maybe apathetic would have been a better word...
OK, Al From comes off as an asshole most of the time, but I voted for Gore, Voted for Kerry, and you quote me out of context for crying out loud! Seriously, I never really even READ the New Dem Dispatch or any DLC publications, and I decided to make up my own mind about it, so I read them, and am frankly appalled by most of them. Its not a lack of understanding on my part, but a dawning of where they are coming from. Do you accept the use of Republican talking points to undercut Democratic values?

Look, the FRAMING of the issues is just as important as the issues themselves, if people accept Republican framing of the issues at FACE VALUE then WE lose. Its plain and simple, what we NEED to do is CHANGE the FRAMING of the DEBATE to be more BALANCED so that our PRINCIPLES are defended properly. Take my example above, and the SECOND article I linked to, they make it seem like the Supreme Court actually took God out of the classroom, when it is blatantly not true. We need to tell the TRUTH here, not repeat LIES that SUPPORT REPUBLICANS and the Radical Religious Right. We need to stick to the facts, plain and simple, and call republicans on their bullshit, which is exactly what it is. Using common sense arguments, we can win, because that is what appeals to the middle.

Any dismissal of any Democratic organization because you support it unconditionally, even when it doesn't help in this instance is not constructive. We need to stop validating myths, and start sticking to the truth for once. We want to bring back people of faith, then do it right, frame it as a civil rights issue, that the fact that school prayer was NEVER taken out of school, the fact that religious freedom is NOT supressed in this country needs to be hammered home. And that is but one issue that is considered important to get votes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. That's not the word I would use
"Take my example above, and the SECOND article I linked to, they make it seem like the Supreme Court actually took God out of the classroom, when it is blatantly not true."
Wow, "not true" sure sums up your shallow and ingenuous description of that piece.

"start sticking to the truth for once"
Like I said, irony is SUCH a wonderful thing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-13-06 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. Excellent post, Solon.
Edited on Sat May-13-06 05:46 PM by 1932
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed May 01st 2024, 03:36 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC