A question about the Rathergate documents of dubious origin . . .

[ProfessorPlum]

I've never seen the broadcast where they discussed Bush's AWOL for his final year in the guard. But the way I have heard the story told, is that these documents were flashed on the screen as part of the report. And then BuckBeak or whatever his name was, started almost immediately afterward claiming the documents were forgeries based on technical arguments.

Now, I've seen news shows use documents in their broadcasts before, from close-ups of newspapers with yellow highlighter to graphics with specific quotes jumping off the documents and zooming up on the screen. And those documents almost never stay on the screen for longer than about 2 seconds. In fact, they seem sometimes like a conceit of the graphics department, when a simple statement that "we have received documents which are consistent with the reports of our sources" would suffice.

I guess my question is this: were these documents on the screen long enough for BuckFush to actually come to any conclusion at all? Or did they flash by too quickly? Is there any way in which this wasn't a Rove ratfucking operation, or is there a slim possible chance that the events actually unfolded the way we were told they did? (From Buckshot's perspective)

I think we need to dig into the NSA phone records database and see if any calls were made between Buckbag and Karl Rove in the weeks prior to the CBS story, no?

[blm]

1. Actually, PP, those documents were never found to be forged. Interestingly

the millions of dollars spent on the investigation were never able to determine the documents were forged. I would say that if they were forged, we would never have heard the end of it and a HUGE investigation would have happened PUBLICLY.

[ProfessorPlum]

3. I never said they were

It's "surprising" that a whole network of journalists investigated those documents and never was able to establish their provenance. And still haven't been able to. Real curious folks, those journalists, huh?

[blm]

7. HAH - real journos? Coverup guy for AP and Richard Thornburg of the BFEE

really did their best to get to the truth, didn't they?

[ProfessorPlum]

5. You know, it's interesting - that's what _should_ have happened

The CW is that the documents were forged and Rather retired in disgrace.

But as you say, why wasn't a public investigation done? Because, that might have revealed the source of the forgeries. And that wouldn't have helped the GOP at all, would it?

God, I'm starting to actually hate this country. At least, the way everyone allows a crime syndicate to run it.

[blm]

10. Then you should read this Parry article.

He comes down on the same side I do - the only way to turn this country around is to open the books and let the citizens KNOW what has actually happened so they can MAKE informed decisions. Of course, Parry is a brilliant writer (and I can't write my way out of a paper bag) and makes the point a MILLION times better than I ever could.




http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/051006.html

>>>>>>>>>
So for Clinton, learning the truth about controversial deals between the Reagan-Bush crowd and the autocratic governments of Iraq and Iran just wasn’t on the White House radar screen. Clinton also wanted to grant President George H.W. Bush a gracious exit.

“I wanted the country to be more united, not more divided,” Clinton explained in his 2004 memoir, My Life. “President Bush had given decades of service to our country, and I thought we should allow him to retire in peace, leaving the (Iran-Contra) matter between him and his conscience.”

Unexpected Results

Clinton’s generosity to George H.W. Bush and the Republicans, of course, didn’t turn out as he had hoped. Instead of bipartisanship and reciprocity, he was confronted with eight years of unrelenting GOP hostility, attacks on both his programs and his personal reputation.

Later, as tensions grew in the Middle East, the American people and even U.S. policymakers were flying partially blind, denied anything close to the full truth about the history of clandestine relationships between the Reagan-Bush team and hostile nations in the Middle East.

Clinton’s failure to expose that real history also led indirectly to the restoration of Bush Family control of the White House in 2001. Despite George W. Bush’s inexperience as a national leader, he drew support from many Americans who remembered his father’s presidency fondly.

If the full story of George H.W. Bush’s role in secret deals with Iraq and Iran had ever been made public, the Bush Family’s reputation would have been damaged to such a degree that George W. Bush’s candidacy would not have been conceivable.

Not only did Clinton inadvertently clear the way for the Bush restoration, but the Right’s political ascendancy wiped away much of the Clinton legacy, including a balanced federal budget and progress on income inequality. A poorly informed American public also was easily misled on what to do about U.S. relations with Iraq and Iran.

In retrospect, Clinton’s tolerance of Reagan-Bush cover-ups was a lose-lose-lose – the public was denied information it needed to understand dangerous complexities in the Middle East, George W. Bush built his presidential ambitions on the nation’s fuzzy memories of his dad, and Republicans got to enact a conservative agenda.

Clinton’s approach also reflected a lack of appreciation for the importance of truth in a democratic Republic. If the American people are expected to do their part in making sure democracy works, they need to be given at least a chance of being an informed electorate.
>>>>>>>>

[ProfessorPlum]

13. Wow, talk about the beaten spouse syndrome

Good intentions are always used against us.

[grasswire]

18. and FDR hushed up the attempted military coup, too

The military industrialists attempted a full coup against FDR. When it was foiled at the last moment by General Smedley Butler, FDR too instructed that it be hushed up. He didn't want the fuss of investigations to spoil his election chances.

Until these people are brought to justice, this will never end.

[blm]

20. It will end when we demand our leaders pledge to support open government.

I have been pleased that in recent weeks, both Dean and Nacy Pelosi have used the words open government as part of their overall theme.

We are not alone - We are the anti-corruption, open government wing of the Democratic party.

[Opening_Day]

22. Sure, he hushed it up!

But YOU if course have super-secret unsourceable unattributed personal knowledge of said event. Just like all good conspiracies that are revealed only to those "special" internet people.

[grasswire]

24. welcome to DU

Hope your short stay is informative!

Incidentally, most Americans have never heard of the coup attempt against FDR because IT WAS HUSHED UP!

You, of course, can learn about it today via Google.

[Opening_Day]

27. Well sure! Everything you read on the internet is true!

The great FDR Google coup, how could I have been so misinformed?

[Opening_Day]

28. Short stay?

Oh, and thank you. What makes you think it will be a short stay? Because I don't believe every lunatic conspiracy sourced through Google?

[RandomKoolzip]

25. Uh oh! Black Helicopters!

Look out!

[ProfessorPlum]

8. This outcome is the best of all possible worlds for Rove

everyone assumes that the docs were forged, but there is no further investigation, just a sulfurous smell. Everyone assumes they know what happened, but no one does.

[ShortnFiery]

2. It's Elementary Dear ProfessorPlum ...

Spying is only legal when it's Republican operatives gleaning the focused snoops on their Democratic Opponents.

Remember The Law of BushWorld: "If The President does it, it's not breaking the law". :sarcasm: :P

[havocmom]

4. Excellent: If Buck DID actually read & identify those docs from TV

did he have the program recorded so he could PAUSE it long enough to really see the docs?

I don't have tivo and the VCR is DOA so I can't test to see if a pause would leave me with a clear enough image to read and scrutinize the doc on the screen. Anybody care to help me out here? Would paused image be clear enough to allow time to really SEE the fine print?

Would love to jump all over this aspect, but we need to look before we leap. If pausing a playback would give a crisp image, we might just get clobbered on this same issue again. At a time when Rove is getting clobbered himself, take nothing for granted. Confirm confirm confirm... and make sure all loopholes are pulled tight.

But, boy oh boy, if the doc images are not clear enough on a pause, run with it!
:evilgrin:

[robbedvoter]

6. I very vaguely remember some papers being shown. It was the

secretary who testified that W considered himself above the law that made an indelible impression on me. There were other witnesses as well - lots of independent corroboration of the facts. It was only sheer critical mass of the shrill media running with the pack that allowed this to be about Dan Rather instead of about Bush.
In a trial, judges and juries sift through evidence to figure out what is a preponderence of. In this case - one simple -allegedly- tainted piece of evidence in an iron clad case, got the accused off and hang the prosecution. Unbelievable piece of orchestrated propaganda.
It's why I get so POd at the shrill attacks on DU on the recent possible entrapment. They act exactly like the MSM with walking orders from KKKarl - no matter what their actual individual motivations are. And that is more upsetting than getting a story wrong - even if it were done as a con job.

[ProfessorPlum]

9. Yeah, what is sad is that they wouldn't have needed to show the

docs at all. What would Rove have done if they decided not to flash pictures of them on the screen? How would the fake "investigation" have gotten started in that case?

Surely he had a backup plan.

What's also amazing is that CBS vetted those documents through the White House, which returned them without a peep of objection before the broadcast. Guess no kerning experts on duty that day.

[ldf]

29. the secretary said

that if those were true documents, SHE would have been the one to type them.

she said she did not.

she DID say, however, that the concerns reflected in the document WERE accurate reflections of the concerns of those involved.

so, she said it was true, but she didn't type them.

also, the story is that those documents came from a certain woman, who INSISTED that copies be made, and the originals destroyed.

so, they weren't the originals, and the freeper guy was sitting on ready to expose them as not being originals. so he knew in advance.

once the smoke started, the truth of the documents was totally obscured by the fact that they were "forgeries".

a total rove setup. the REALLY wanted to "necklace" dan rather.

[Shrek]

11. The documents were posted on the web

I doubt the "analysis" occurred from a TV image.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-09-09bushdocs.pdf

[ProfessorPlum]

12. It would be good to know the exact timeline

of when people had access to the docs, and when they started screaming "forgery".

[LA lady]

15. check wiki

Wiki hasa a pretty good analysis along with the overlay of documents

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rathergate

[TreasonousBastard]

14. From what I remember...

the docs were put up on the web and that's where the swiftboaters got them.

However, the "originals" were photocopied, faxed, scanned, and converted to PDFs before they got to the web. Then they were printed out by thousands to examine. Each one of those processes caused some slight change, and the result, particularly the PDF conversion, could have been enough to cause the furor over whether proportional type was used. And that was pretty much the key to "proving" them forgeries.

I thought at the time that it woould have been easy for CBS to explain that, and divert the argument back to the witnesses and other known facts to show that the docs were only part of the evidence thay had and that the story was legit. But, they folded, and the best explanation seems to be that some very heavy guns were brought down on them.

[KittyWampus]

16. The Secretary Flatly Stated She Didn't Type Those Documents BUT

she typed ones almost completely identical with exact same information.

[zann725]

17. I personally used Selectric typwriters during that time, & subscript type

existed on various type-face "balls" (as they were referred to. This was also verified by IBM experts, as I recall.

I therefore see no basis for the fraud. Just simply the OVER-KILL of lies in reverse (as in "Swiftboat" lies) which were simply covered more by MSM, and the Truth suppressed by Powers-that-be. Besides, the story at basis (Shrub's no-show not only in Nat'l Guard, but also in college)...as well as HARD drug abuse are NOT fictional, and well-known and verified by many for years.

[Nederland]

26. I show a show

that demonstrated exactly what a person would have to do to produce a memo with a Selectric that looked like the one CBS showed. It involved changing type face balls three times. Hard to believe that a person would do that for a memo a few sentences long. Personally, I think the timing of the documents and the swiftness of the response indicates that CBS was duped by somebody in the RNC.

Just a guess though...

[Bridget Burke]

19. The "papers" were only part of the story.

Dan Rather's interview with Ben Barnes began the segment.

And I've been quoted and misquoted. And the reason I'm here today, I really want to tell the story. And I want to tell it one time and get it behind us. And again it's-- this is not about George Bush's political career.

This is about what the truth is. About the time in which I served and the role I played. Sid Adger (PH), a friend of the Bush family, came to see me and asked me if I would recommend George W. Bush for the Air National Guard. And I did.

And I talked to a Gen. Rose, who was the commander of the Air National Guard. I don't know whether my recommendation was the absolute reason he got in the Guard. He was a Congressman's son. He graduated from Yale. He was a person that would have been eligible.

But there was a long list of people waiting to be, or hoping to be a candidate for the Air National Guard, and for the Army National Guard. That was one route that young men had to go to-- or that was available to a very special few to-- be able to avoid being drafted and being able to avoid going to Vietnam. Although some National Guard people later went to Vietnam.

www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/08/60II/main642060.shtml

Controversy over the documents somehow made everyone forget the story of how Bushie used his family's "pull" to get a scarce place in the TANG.

(And I used an IBM Executive Typewriter back in those days. One with Proportional Spacing.)

[Bandit]

21. What I remember is the documents were never able to be authenticated

They were never declared to be falsified either. Just speculation and Rather was bruised because he put them out there without being able to authenticate them, sort of like Jason Leopold. I have no doubt Rove will indeed be indicted but Jason sort of jumped the gun without real verifiable authentication.

[zbdent]

23. I find it hilarious that one of the two documents produced which show

any service by Bush at all (the other being a dental record - freeloading on the taxpayers' dime then, too) was discredited by the Republicans . . . and nobody has come forward YET to claim the thousands of dollars bounty for proving that Bush showed up for his duty . . .