The Second American Civil War

[wcepler]

The Second American Civil War:

Time to see it like it is. What's happening now in America isn't politics as usual; it's more like a civil war.

It stopped being politics in the year 2000 when Republican brown shirts stormed the Florida election centers to steal the presidential election.

It stopped being politics when Senator Wellstone's plane crashed so "conveniently" in Minnesota.

It stopped being politics when only high profile Democrats received anthrax in the mail.

It stopped being politics with black box, one party, Diebold "voting machines".

It stopped being politics when the Republicans also stole the year 2004 presidential election (please remember that significant discrepancies between exit polls and tallied results are the international standard for election fraud, and according to that standard, John Kerry is now unequivocally President of the United States).

It stopped being politics when patriotic members of our intelligence corps were exposed to life threatening dangers as acts of petty political revenge (are you listening, Karl?).

It stopped being politics when religious extremists tried to replace our Constitutional Democracy with an arrogant caricature of the loving and compassionate teachings of Jesus Christ.

And it stopped being politics when Presidential State of the Nation lies were used to justify exchanging the blood of thousands our children for oil.

Please note that these aren't political events. These are violent, illegal, and desperately immoral acts. We are talking about death and dishonor, treason and revenge, and these aren't political words, they’re war words.

Our noble forefathers won their war against a mad King George. Now it's our turn.

Viva America!

wcproteus

[Ian David]

1. Those who make peaceful revolution impossible...

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
John F. Kennedy, In a speech at the White House, 1962
35th president of US 1961-1963 (1917 - 1963)
http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/24966.html


Live free or Diebold.

[JeffR]

2. Good synopsis

I think the Starr investigation and the Clinton impeachment sham should be in there too.

[Sequoia]

3. Welcome, but this would be the 3rd Civil War.

The first one WAS the Revolutionary War and you just know one brother was a Reb and one was a Tory. Then of course the war between the states which the south hasn't gotten over, and now this.

[NativeTexan]

4. GREAT POST!!!

Your reasoning is completely ON POINT! And THAT, my friend, is EXTREMELY FRIGHTENING!!

WELCOME TO DU!!!!

[Fovea]

5. The civil war of 1980.

like the events of 1840s-50s created the armed uprising and secession of 1860.

What happened in the meantime was business as usual in a degenerating social contract. I live on the border of Kansas and Missouri. I eat lunch a block from where Union Order #11 was signed, violating the constitution. It depopulated 3 counties of those who could not be certified as loyal to the Union.

But before this, the Kansas Nebraska act set off a competition to see if the new kansas territory would vote to be Free or Slave. A lot of religious fervor against slavery had come through Missouri, and the back lash of Southern culture's defensiveness arose in Missouri's Little Dixie region along the Missouri river.

Besides the religious turmoil, there were stolen elections by the Slavery group in Kansas, Underground Railroad's western terminus at Quindaro sat across the river from Riverside and Parkville which were Slave supporting communities.

My neighborhood gave the world the terms bushwhacker, jayhawker, redlegs, border ruffians, butternuts, etc. But the point to remember is that a lot of the underlying conflict in the area started in the mid 1840's when northern baptist preachers rode the little dixie circuit demonizing slave holders.

But looking at the current civil war, the rhetoric starts with Ronald Reagan saying 'There he goes again.' in '79-- from there, it was a matter of months before Reagan was the beneficiary of the first republican 'October surprise.' Bush41 carried it forward, starting the replacement of institutional welfare by dogma driven faith based aid with his 'thousand points of light.'

But the Iraq war I, 41's essential tone deafness to the average American, the third way, and a co opting of core strategy with the charisma of Bill Clinton took what should have been a virtual one party lock into the 21st C. was deferred for eight years of brutal, amoral struggle to regain the white house.

Along the way, we have seen terrorist bombings,both foreign and domestic, and biological attack. We have had multiple election frauds, vilification of the Democratic party(like the local republicans were vilified in western Missouri in the 1850s), massive corruption like the Buchanan admin, and a culture war (like Slavery vs Free in the 1850s) that requires capitulation, because there is no room for the old guard to wiggle. They have already fought and won or lost the individual battles. Now they must deliver on their promise to the descendants of the anti-bellum south.

They must deliver nothing less than a Christian Falangist State. To do that one of two things must happen, as I see it.

1. There must be a state of national emergency that allows the status quo to continue indefinitely. Like, say a Sarin attack on congress.

2. There must be an actual faith based take over establishing a taliban Murika.

And I don't see them as mutually exclusive. After Bushco nukes Iran, there would be rumors of a huge 5th column, a huge NK nuke scare, another anthrax scare, another planes into buildings scare, another small plane whacking of a Dem leader...the filling of a halliburton camp or two.

And just like that, the shooting will start. Not just here, but the fraggings will start in the field of deployment. National guard units, regular g.i. vs the mercs and locals. But here it will be an outbreak, suppression, and reprisal conflict. Between cycles, there will be migrations, like the ones to bleeding Kansas in the 1850s. It will be a holy war. Read the latest book by Kevin Phillips.

It will be inter-mural and it will look on the surface a bit like Kansas City in the 1860's-- rural vs. city folks. But then as it will be soon, it is more about a basic social question. Not shall we hold people in slavery, but shall we be a nation whose behavior and society is framed by an agreement, a constitution of our society and state-- or shall we become a theocratic authoritarian cult of personality?

I fear that America will not survive this next hot culture war. Why? Because the PNACicans are true believers and their kingdom of Jesus/Mars depends on total victory. That's how the eschaton works. They already control the airforce, and the National Guard is overseas.

But there are Americans who will never give in to the new american fascism. Not enough to defeat them, but enough to thwart total pnacification. I see a literal Jesusland in the future. I also see a new America rising eventually, smaller, but freer and more just.

[PassingFair]

32. Thanks a LOT.

Sweet dreams for ME tonight....

[joetripp]

6. Diebold wasn't expecting this

I saw this on BradBlog www.fixavote.com

[In Truth We Trust]

7. Great post! Hand Counted Paper Ballots NOW!

[frogcycle]

8. Roger That!

For all of us, there should be one and only one mission right now.

GET DEMOCRATS ELECTED THIS NOVEMBER!

This is absolutely critical to the survival of our form of government. The checks and balances were suspended over the past six years, the "fourth estate" has largely abdicated its role, the Bill of Rights has been temporarily nullified (I say temporary because I believe even THIS SCOTUS will overturn the "bush torture and indefinite detainment act of 2006").

Regardless of who you prefer among Democratic possibles, this November's elections are crucial. If we don't win overwhelmingly, bushco will still claim a "mandate" and then trump up a national emergency and try to suspend the Constitution entirely. These people are not going down without a fight. They know they are in trouble two years from now, and will be trying to avoid having to fight that battle. We need to eviscerate them in November. We need both houses, with enough votes to override vetoes!!!

All these "signing statements" are essentially line-item vetoes where there is no chance to override, yet another end run of the Constitution.

We need to get laws passed that crush these people, let him veto, and override. Then if he won't enforce, impeach. We can't wait two years to vote in our nominee, whomever that may be. This war has been going on since the end of the Eisenhower administration, accelerated some during the Clinton years, moreso in bush's first 8 months, and then skyrocketed with the excuse of 9/11.

Our Republic is at risk. I wrote on John Laesch's blog the other day that a little over a century and a half ago Illinois sent a man to Washington who saved the union. Now we need him to do it again, by defeating Hastert in 30 days. Yes, you read correctly. DEFEAT HASTERT! The man has enjoyed 65-74% majorities every year, never needs to campaign, is the modern-day "Congersman Frog" from the Pogo comic strip. But he can be beat! He was down to the low-to-mid fifties in July! John Laesch is a young guy only just getting into politics. The national party hasn't paid him any attention because it is a hopeless cause. Well it's NOT!. It can be done, and the message to the scoundrels, and any remaining fence sitters will be huge. We're mad as hell and not going to take it any more! Tammy Duckworth is going to win Henry Hyde's old seat in my district, and Laesch can win the 14th. That will be a huge swath of oh-so-red Northern Illinois turned blue. The world needs to know that the people are retaking the American Government.

OK, deep breath.

So we all need to contribute, do whatever we can to help in key races, whether our home districts or not. Respond to Murtha's email, Pelosi's, Kerry's, Obama's. Donate what you can, do phone calls, whatever. If we don't win big using Constitutionally-prescribed processes this time, we may never have the chance again.

[newyawker99]

16. Hi frogcycle!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[frogcycle]

20. Hi back

Well thanks.

I have found lately that I need to do a lot of venting if I am not going to put my fist through walls and kick in the TV.

Last night I went to John Laesch's town meeting. My first-ever actual participation in grassroots politics, I am embarrassed to say. I don't even live in his district. We need to mobilize thousands like me to get involved, put up signs, buttonhole their neighbors, sound the alarm. This is going to be one of the (if not THE) most critical elections in our history.

[frogcycle]

9. And furthermore...

It stopped being politics a long time earlier. We were warned of this slow-motion coup by Ike. There has always been a "Dark Side of the Force" in our Republic, since its inception, but it is getting stronger and bolder.
I posted this elsewhere back in June; things have changed a bit since then, but the overall message is still the same:

It is my opinion that this cabal, whomever the real powers hidden deeply out of sight may be, came into being shortly after the Kennedy election and has been fine-tuning its methods ever since.

I don't suggest that it was complicit in JFKs assassination, but would not be at all surprised to learn that it was. To all you youngsters out there who didn't live through the Kennedy/Nixon campaign, let me tell you, it was the beginning of all the crap we see today. It was "A long, long time ago" , I know. And November 22, 1963 was the real "Day the music died" for this country.

Richard Nixon was the "heir apparent" to the Republican rule under Dwight D. Eisenhower, who, in my opinion, was one of the "good guys" from what was once a decent political party. He beat out another "good guy", Adlai Stevenson, in an atmosphere of McCarthism and red-baiting not dissimilar to today's "terrorist threat" scare tactics. I was too young to follow the details of the campaigns - the most I can recall is hearing an "I like Ike" slogan on the car radio, knowing my dad agreed, and therefore concluding I did too.

Eisenhower was a war hero - more than that, he was our first Supreme Allied Commander, leading us to eventual success in the European theatre in WWII.

When he left office he delivered a warning speech, cautioning the country to beware the "militaryindustrial complex" :

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."

Ike's Farewell Address

That speech is one of the finest ever delivered, and should be as familiar to Americans as is the Gettysburg Address or the preamble to the Constitution. *

As he acknowledges in the speech, he had to feel his way as President, but did so successfully. He pays homage gracefully both to the legislative branch and to his successor. He points out that the "militaryindustrial complex" was a new phenomenon that developed, and necessarily so, during his tenure in office, but warns the American people to keep it under control.

Unfortunately, that complex was not about to stand by and wait to be controlled. Kennedy's victory stunned the nation. Here was someone who was NOT part of the nascent power center beating out their guy. He had ideas other than theirs. Ideas like equality for blacks and fighting organized crime and poverty that had nothing to do with increasing their profits. So some sort of mobilization occurred. I don't know what or whom, but a cabal was formed.

JFK's assassination may have been a "lucky break" for them, as 9/11 was some 37 years later, or they may have encouraged it somehow. We will never know in either case. But they had a pretty good ride with LBJ because he agreed "I'll give you your war", and indeed he did so. That he also pursued some social programs was acceptable, because they had plenty of cash flow from VN and could tolerate a democrat being in power.

Whereas JFK had been hesitant about the Bay of Pigs invasion, and ultimately was a major cause of its failure through that hesitance, LBJ was their guy through and through. Some say in his later years he realized that and was stricken with remorse. He was a tortured soul during VN, but got it cranking nevertheless.

Whether the Bay of Pigs debacle is what decided The Machine to take drastic action is something we'll never know.

So guess what? When LBJ threw in the towel and VP Humphrey ran, the cabal said "who you gonna call?" and dusted off none other than RMN. All he had to do was promise he "had a secret plan" to get us out of VN, and a desparate nation bought it, hook, line and sinker. Whereas HHH might have actually managed to undo the damage LBJ had done by being snookered, he didn't make such broad promises, and RMN's sound bite put the cabal right back in the catbird seat. His "secret plan" managed to keep the d*mned thing going quite nicely, until eventually overwhelmed by a mobilized populace demanding an end to it.

I don't know whether RMN was really behind the "dirty tricks" and such that are collectively called "Watergate" or just ok with them. Regardless, they ended up backfiring. They were amateurish in those days. They weathered the storm long enough to get him reelected, but those pesky reporters kept pecking away, and things unraveled.

The outsiders in the person of James Earl Carter, Jr., managed to beat out the placeholder, Gerald Ford. For four years Carter tried his d*mnedest to set a good direction; he recognized the coming oil crisis and tried to pass legislation to stimulate development of alternative energy sources. His downfall was the taking of hostages in Iran, and his inability to get them freed. He made great strides in dragging the Israelis and Palestinians to Camp David and making them actually talk to each other. Carter's one bold effort to take action on the hostages backfired when The Machine's helicopters could not deal with the dust. So the overriding message by the time he ran for a second term was - guess what? He can't get the hostages freed, and Reagan will. Reagan didn't claim a "secret plan" - he didn't need to. The hostage-takers themselves were pretty open about letting it be known they would deal with him, but not Carter. They actually negotiated with Carter's people. but refused to give him get the satisfaction, held out to reward Reagan.

The Machine had its way, and we got Ronald Reagan as our President.

The Machine had learned a lot by then, and managed their control pretty well. The "Cold War" ended - sort of - and he got credit. The "Star Wars" initiative he had started, which was a huge black hole of investment in (guess what?) Eisenhower's "militaryindustrial complex", kept on cranking, with unchecked funding, because we never knew when a "rogue state" might get its hands on one of the former Soviet Union's missiles. Life was good for The Machine, and this time around, the heir apparant was readily elected.

But a mere four years later, despite a pretty good job in Desert Storm GHWB got beat by yet another of those pesky outsiders. The Machine mobilized immediately, with various efforts to discredit him via Whitewater and such. Simultaneously, they started preparing for the next couple of elections. Bob Dole would be the placeholder in four years, and hopefully prevail. But Plan B was activated as well. GWB was recruited from his comfortable job running a baseball team, having failed repeatedly in the oil business, and was successfully run for governor of Texas. Karl Rove was the brains behind that campaign and its many dirty tricks. GWB was placed in office with little or no clue what it meant, and a steady campaign of developing a resume was conducted, while on the other front smearing Clinton however possible.

Sure enough, Dole didn't win, but unfortunatley four years later Clinton had scr*wed up royally and handed The Machine a present, which they used oh-so-well.

Even so, it was close. So close, in fact, that The Machine had to use some of its emergency-preparedness tactics to undo the results of the election, which it did with aplomb. Four years later it was again close, and had it not been for some of The Machine's dirty tricks ("Swift Boat" comes to mind), would not have been close enough to again steal. And yes, I firmly believe Ohio was stolen in '04 just as Florida was in '00.

So look at the track record, folks. Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it. Throwing Mondale, McGovern, Dukakis up against this Machine was folly. Having a divisive primary campaign would be folly. We are up against the big dogs, and MUST NOT think that just because they haven't named their heir apparent, that they are folding their cards. They WILL come out with a strong candidate. Not necessarily a GOOD one - GWB wasn't a GOOD one, but they used him successfully. They WILL do it again. They are addicted to their power, and are NOT going to go quietly into the night.

The arrest of some stumblebums in Florida the other day was a lame attempt to stir the pot and refresh the "terror threat" in all our minds. Having Rick Santorum claim belatedly "the WMD have been found" was another lame attempt. It was passed off by the press as his desperate move to salvage his campaign. BULL! That is illogical. If he is 18 points behind in Pa, "proving" GWB was right is not going to help him. He was doing the bidding of The Machine - already a casualty, "making his bones" for some future role in The Machine.

The "CO2 is life" ads were another lame attempt.

Trial balloons, Madison-Avenue tactics through and through.

Right now they are poking around trying to find a soft spot. Their work is cut out for them, because they have done such a crap job. But they are like a fighter who has taken a couple of head shots, using the ropes to support himself, covering up, catching his breath, looking for an opening to come out swinging, taking a few tentative jabs in the interim.

We absolutely MUST understand that this is not a fair fight. It is FAR from what is envisioned by the Constitution. We the People are up against a modern-day George III.

Geroge III

My analogy is not to GWB, but to The Machine - the hidden invisible monster that is having its way with our country and form of government.

George III's madness eventually had him deposed. We can only hope the same will become of The Machine. It is much more difficult, however, because The Machine is a faceless enemy. Cut off one head and it grows another.

We are, in fact, at a major juncture in the course of American history. Either we kill the monster, or it kills us. Just as Al Gore says we are no more than a decade away from the point of no return in Global Warming, I fervently believe we are no more than one more Presidential election away from a point of no return in our country's history. Our very form of government lies in the balance.

We need to listen to Ike. He fervently loved and believed in this country. We owe it to ourselves, to his memory, and to all who have fought and died for this noble experiment to get our act together, get our powder dry, and kill the monster.

dbc
6/25/06

*Ike is the reason i grew up a Republican, and didn't switch for a long time. I decided I was independent toward the end of RMN's debacle; finally admitted the Democratic party was the only game in town sometime during Reagan's tenure. Voting for John Anderson, which I did, got us nowhere.

[Fire Walk With Me]

10. Hi Agent Mike!

[Hosnon]

11. Observation: Some liberals seem to always think another civil war is

on the horizon. Some conservatives seem to always think another world war is on the horizon.

Just an observation...wonder what it means?

[Jed Dilligan]

12. It means

blood will flow... somewhere... and one of these days it might hit home for us.

[lpbk2713]

13. Civil War ---- A classic oxymoron.

But that's what makes its usage so strangely appropriate.

[DaveT]

14. a civil war?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4649308



The Second Civil War started in Miami Dade County when a farcical band of Republican apparatchiks disrupted the counting of ballots by the force of their own blubbery persons -- coupled with the explict threat to bring in "Cubans" as re-inforcements.

At the time Jim Baker was on TV almost every day, laying the ideological groundwork for the Restoration of Rule By The Bush Family Business. Baker pompously, ponderously and sarcastically expounded the post-modern conception that there is no such thing as Objective Reality -- that a person could not be trusted to look at a cardboard ballot without letting her "bias" determine her assessment of which Presidential candidate should get credit for it.

This premise that power determines reality shortly thereafter became the per curiam rationale for putting Bush into the White House. Rather than applying the rule of law (which incidentally, with a little intellectual effort, could have supported their decision) the Supreme Court just blew an ultra-cynical 5-4 raspberry at Al Gore and the majority of Americans who did not want Bush to become President.

Throughout that miserable month of political disputation in Florida, we saw a continuation of that faux-riot in Miami: a relentless array of shouters from talk radio; Fox News; and the internet; plus ever larger numbers of Mainstream Media voices -- all expressing the exact same message at the exact same time.

Having been a professional labor organizer my whole life, I have to tip my hat to the iron discipline and rock solid unity of this Chanting Machine. I really would not want to emulate this inherently fascistic technique, but we would all be blind fools not to recognize the depth, breadth and perfect unity of the right wing organization assembled behind the Bush Family Business.

In our own disorganized way, liberals, progressives and leftists have tried to come to terms with this Leviathan -- only to get our ass kicked at every turn.

The one dimension that makes absolute unity possible for them and what makes anything remotely resembling unity impossible for us is what Baker expounded in Florida -- their denial of Objective Reality. To them "reality" is a party line dictated from above. For us objective reality is a dozen mutually exclusive interpretations of how smart or dumb is the individual named George Walker Bush.

Our belief in the significance of Objective Reality leads us into holding our end of a perpetual "debate" in which we all speak our own minds while they spout off their Party Line in unison.

Our belief in Objective Reality also leads us to pine for a "Free Press" that adheres to the principle of objective journalism.


Well, there is no escape from the challenge they pose. It is a frontal attack on the premise of democracy and constitutional government.



This past week brings the grim reality to a crisis point. The hurricane is a dose of Objective Reality that no amount of chanting in unison can alter. Caught without his brain trust at his side, the grinning pestilence of George Walker Bush did not know what to do about the human catastrophe that engulfed a wide swath of the USA.

People suffered and died while Bush ate cake and strummed a guitar.

By the end of the week, the game plan was finally cobbled together and you will hear it blasting out of your cable TVs and car radios this week -- it was Somebody Else's Fault.

It does not matter that this is absurd on its face. It does not matter that, even if absolutely true, it would not absolve Bush or FEMA or the DHS of their dithering under fire. It does not even matter that this shows when Al Qaeda does launch its next attack within the USA, our government will go into Instant Blame Game mode rather than address the human suffering caused by terror.

No, we are dealing with a tightly knit organization that has no patriotism, no respect for law and nothing but contempt for truth. Contempt for the truth is what put them in power and it is what keeps them in power.


What we need more than anything else is to realize that there is no reasoning with these people. I hate writing these words. It contradicts everything I have believed in my 52 years on this planet.

I remain a pacifist and I firmly believe that a non-violent campaign to restore Respect For Truth will have a chance to succeed while violence would cause more grief and accomplish nothing.

But until we realize that the other side is fighting a civil war AGAINST US -- particularly the people of color among US -- we will continue to be frustrated, disorganized and, at bottom, losers.

That is what sustains them, by the way. The only belief they have on this earth is that they are winners and we are losers.

[SIIHPAPP]

15. They may have the guns...but we have the PEOPLE!!!!!!11

I don't own guns because I believe only the government should have weapons, but I can probably whip up some pointy sticks!!!

[newyawker99]

17. Hi SIIHPAPP!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Brian Stevens]

23. In times we MUST set aside our pacifistic beliefs

and do what must be done.

[derby378]

31. You poor thing...

I may be a Quaker, but I support your right to bear arms. Looks like I found you just in time...

[PerfectSage]

18. The way I see it...

...the north won the civil war, but the south has won the civil cold war.

[kwolf68]

19. No offense

And there are few that loved Paul Wellstone such as I did, but unless there is real evidence in his death to suggest what you suggest then we look like clowns suggesting assasination. Keep in mind, I DO NOT PUT it past the radical right, not at all. But I just believe his death was a tragic accident and nothing more.

[elocs]

21. Passionate post, but there will be no civil war.

Americans, most Democrats included, are too fat and lazy to give up their comfortable lives to engage in civil war. Only about 60% of the eligible voters can even be bothered to participate in a presidential election and of that number probably 1/3 are Democrats, 1/3 are Republicans, and 1/3 are independents who go both ways. So if you are talking civil war, you would be lucky to get even 1/4 of the Democrats. Reality is a cruel mistress.

[Brian Stevens]

22. Thats the problem

There are peolple that post here talk a good game. But to do it, is another story. We have and are being looked at as cowards because of this. If civil war must start, which is TOTALLY INEVITABLE, the first shot must come from us.

[elocs]

24. There will be no civil war.

If you threaten the comfortable life which Americans experience, they will be more than willing to help the government, no matter how corrupt or dictatorial, crush you like a bug. The opposition numbers are far too small for a civil war. The numbers of "us" in, as you write, "the first shot must come from us" are too few to qualify as being part of a civil war, but would only be considered as "insurgents" which most Americans call "terrorists". Undergrounds may have an effect if they have help from an outside force such as the French underground had from the Allies in WWII. In this country, if you want to be in the forefront of a call for civil war then your designation will quickly change from "coward" to "martyr".

None of what has happened in this country has occurred in a vacuum. Republicans have been smart in consolidating their power over the years and paying attention to local and state races. I am sure everybody here can now appreciate the importance of the office of state secretary of state after what happened in Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004. Prior to that many probably thought what can a state secretary of state do? How important, in hindsight, was it to lose the Texas governorship to Bush and the Florida governorship to Bush? No, although it looks bad for Republicans now, they have done well in the past dozen years and have been pragmatic about their goal and message in order to consolidate their power from the bottom up.

Words have meanings and certain words have more inflammatory meanings than others. I hope your real name is not Brian Stevens because you have made their work much easier. We here may all be on a list, but you, quite likely, have gone to the top of that list (the DU list, at least). This country has not even seen massive civil unrest and demonstrations concerning the war and this government and although most Americans do not approve of Bush, most are happy overall, or at least comfortable, with the way their lives are now and would not want to risk it all on a civil war. So, another reality check, there will be no civil war.

[Brian Stevens]

25. This is not the first time civil war was called for on DU

If you look hard enough, you might find around 5 or six threads regarding the same subject, and you be surprised at the responses.

[elocs]

26. Calling for civil war now,

is like declaring bankruptcy because you are behind on paying one of your credit cards. Have you exhausted all the alternatives before declaring bankruptcy? An idea that is stupid is stupid no matter how many threads it has suggesting it. I am not surprised by the responses I read to anything here. In a civil war, lots of innocent people, including children and babies, suffer and are hurt and die, but evidently that's no problem either for all those noble insurgents who are willing to sacrifice anybody and anything to attain their cause. Sound familiar? And you want to bring that to America? I don't think that those who belong to DU are even an accurate reflection of the Democratic Party as a whole. Good luck with your civil war though, but I don't see it happening. It might make an interesting book, though. Give it a try and maybe it can make you rich and famous, which will help you to fund a civil war.

[chicagolefty]

27. I agree

Those who call for civil war really have no concept of what that means. We can get these right wing dolts out of public office with the ballot. They are hanging by a thread and come November we will see a change begin.

[smitty]

30. Thoughtful post, people calling for civil war are fools.

The worst thing you can wish on a country is a civil war---the American civil war, the Russian civil war, the Chinese civil wars of the 19th and 20th century were exceptionally bloody. The list is endless and very depressing.

[lyonn]

28. Just gotta kick this thread, it's oh soo good

nt

[smitty]

29. All this talk about civil war is just mental masturbation.

Remember, in the original American civil war (1861-65) 600,000 died, out of a population of 40 million. Another thing about civil wars, you never know what side is going to win.

[Bridget Burke]

33. It wasn't the Civil War when "we" fought against King George....

That was the Revolution. (I doubt any of my "noble forefathers" were here yet. But they might have been fighting against the English, anyway.)

The Civil War was states seceding to preserve their "rights"--primarily, the right to hold slaves. It didn't work out well.

We DON'T need another war.

This topic comes up every few months here.