If Dean became his top adviser, Kucinich could win

[ecstatic]

He just needs to toughen up for interviews and debates--get some bass and power in his voice and refuse to get shouted down and humiliated. Back in 2003/2004, I saw him torn to pieces a couple times in interviews.

As the only consistently anti-war candidate (who was in office at the time of the vote), Kucinich could definitely win.

[Radical Activist]

1. Oh no way.

Dean had some great people on his campaign team. What Kucinich needs is some of those people, like Dean's press team that got him so much early coverage and maybe Joe Trippi. Dean himself is not what DK needs, and I don't think there's a chance in hell Kucinich would want that anyway. I don't think DK was too impressed with Dean last time.

[MuseRider]

3. I agree,

Dean on the team might make me reconsider.

[MonkeyFunk]

2. I disagree

in 2004, Kucinich polled at under 3% among DEMOCRATS in almost EVERY poll during the primary season.

And I'm not convinced Howard Dean could provide the advice necessary to change that significantly.

[Radical Activist]

6. DK polled better than that in some of the early primary states.

He polled much better among people who actually knew who he was and what he stood for.

The fact that he came in second in the MoveOn.Org online primary says a lot. When people heard Kucinich and what he stood for, they liked him. His problem was that most voters never knew much of anything about him.

[MonkeyFunk]

7. I was able to find ONE poll

that put him at 5% of registered Dems polled. The rest had him at 1% to 3%.

Carol-Mosely Braun may as well hire Paul Tsongas to propel her to the presidency.

Sorry, I like Rep. Kucinich, but he will NEVER come close to getting the nomination, or even winning a single primary.

On edit:

Of COURSE he does well on liberal website polls. That doesn't translate to an electoral win.

[Radical Activist]

12. It was a little more than a liberal website poll.

If you recall, they emailed extended statements from all the candidates and votes from registered members. It was a significant process. It gave people a chance to get to know the candidates beyond what people saw in the media.

He was at 8% in one Iowa poll I recall. He got 6% in the New Mexico caucus, 16% in Maine, 17% in Minnesota, 26% in Hawaii, 7% in Nevada. Hawaii was a little late (March) but the race was still competitive when the other states voted. Sure, that doesn't make him a winner, but he did better than you're suggesting.

[MonkeyFunk]

13. OK

I was referring to nationwide polls:

http://www.pollingreport.com/wh04dem.htm

[Radical Activist]

17. Those depend heavily on national media coverage.

Since Kucinich was essentially blocked out by the national media (Tim Russert never stopped calling Dean the ONLY anti-war candidate) its no surprise that Kucinich never scored high in the polls. His name recognition was always low. Among those who know who he is, he does well. That indicates that Kucinich has a lot of room to go up in the polls if he finds a way to get his name and message out, despite non-cooperation from the media. It does not indicate that he's unpopular.

I don't personally think Kucinich will put together a campaign team and strategy that will allow him to get out his message since the corporate media is sure to continue their blackout of him. But, if he did find a way, I know he would appeal to a lot more than 3% of the primary voters. That's what the polling indicates.

[MonkeyFunk]

21. He got

9% of the vote in his home state.

You can't blame it ALL on the media.

And even if you COULD - dealing with the media is a reality of politics. People who can't do it well lose.

[Radical Activist]

41. I didn't blame it all on the media

if you read my post again, I suggest I don't think he'll be able to put together a campaign that will get beyond the media blackout, which is his own fault. But the fact remains that Kucinich does well among those who know more about him. To suggest his potential is limited at 3% is an unlikely argument.

Polling also showed that more people would have voted for Kucinich had they not been convinced that he had no chance. So posts like yours and many others that repeat the idea that he has no chance are self-fulfilling prophecies. Liberals are the biggest victims of their own self doubt.

[SaveElmer]

14. My recollection of that poll however...

Was that no candidate names were used...is this correct?

[Radical Activist]

18. No. This was their official endorsement process.

MoveOn members were voting for who they wanted to get the official endorsement of MoveOn.Org. Dean got the most votes, but not enough to win the endorsement. Kucinich was second. Kerry was a distant third.

[rinsd]

40. So he's 6 out of 9 instead of 8 out of 9.

"It gave people a chance to get to know the candidates beyond what people saw in the media."

That's great except campaigns don't exist in such a vacuum.

[Radical Activist]

42. But it does suggest

he has potential to gain support far beyond what he has, if he runs a better campaign and builds on the network of support he got last time.

[rinsd]

43. Response

It suggests that if campaigns were solely about issues he would perform better.

But they aren't.

Kucinich is not a great fundraiser. He does not have relationships with key committiee people at the state and local level.

And while I am trying to keep this on a non superficial level but Kucinich is not considered telegenic. Now I don't care and you don't care and many people on DU certainly don't care but people vote for candidates based on dumb things.

[Radical Activist]

44. Kucinich has run and lost for many offices.

He understands how a losing campaign can help build a base of support for a future one. He will start from a better position and will perform better this time than last.

However, I do agree that he's a poor fundraiser. I wouldn't support him again unless I saw that he was making a better personal effort to raise money and hired a campaign manager with at least some basic qualifications to run a campaign.

[cyclezealot]

52. the basic problem with fund raising is

often causes one to sell out. fund raising is questionable. He did raise over $9 million. for grass roots I thought that pretty fair. TV time really puts one's ethics in jeopardy. Dennis Kucinich did not stop running for vanity. He knew his delegates would go no where else and would not let us down. We stayed with him even after we were released and encouraged to go to Kerry. In the end, Dennis been the better campaigner, compared to Kerry. bush would not debate Kucinich because he'd know Dennis would get the better of him. Unlike Kerry.

[Radical Activist]

54. You don't have to sell out

to pick up the phone and ask major donors for money. Dennis needs to commit to doing that if he wants to run for President. He is the one who has to raise the money himself.

[hijinx87]

36. 1%-3%?

jeeez. if he can't poll higher than the margin of error . . . . maybe
he should reconsider . . . .

I also worry that since he was against the war resolution from the very
beginning, he could do damage nationally by attacking more prominent
democratic candidates that voted for the resolution, but have since
renounced their vote.

[Ken Burch]

47. Er,,,you do realize that Tsongas is dead, don't you?

(Or was that your intended joke?)

[rinsd]

38. His high point was 26% in Hawaii

And that was after many had already dropped out with Kucinich doing some actual campaigning there.

"The fact that he came in second in the MoveOn.Org online primary says a lot. "

Its says nothing when he ends up polling 5% or lower in most of the contested primaries where you would think MoveOn types would be the majority or at least a substantial block of the voters.

[Ken Burch]

46. What REALLY hurt Kucinich in 2004

Was that Dean's supporters kept voting for Dean even though Dean's candidacy had ended. If they had done the right thing and given their votes to the last remaining peace candidate in the race, the candidate who was closer to most Dean supporters' views than Dean himself, Kucinich would have gone into Boston with hundreds of delegates rather than only 60.

What the hell were the Deaniacs thinking?

[Infinite Hope]

4. LOL, Dean doesn't mean an automatic win. He'd have one in 2004 if he were.

Though for the record I think he's *one of* the greatest things since sliced bread.

[dorkulon]

5. I like Kucinich, but

he is weird-looking and uses the word "peace" way too much for hippie-hating Americans. He can never win in a country where adults snigger at people who are different just as much as they did in high school.

[ecstatic]

8. maybe he can quickly do an extreme makeover

Message wise, Kucinich is one of our best options. We just have to get him mainstream/ media-ready.

[MonkeyFunk]

10. Again, I disagree

Message-wise, Kucinich is very attractive to many hard-core progressives. That does NOT mean it makes him attractive to the bulk of the American electorate, or even the bulk of Democrats.

[ecstatic]

15. I don't consider myself to be a hard core progressive

I'm more of a moderate, Deanesque type liberal. Maybe I need to take a second listen to Kucinich's positions to make sure I'm agreement with what he's in favor of. But one thing I think 2008 will boil down to is someone who means WTF they say without all this backtracking!!! Hillary/Kerry and them, nice people, but they've backtracked too many times and I'm sick of it.

[eridani]

9. Dean needs to be right where he is

It is the rebuilding of the whole party structure from the grassroots on up that will eventually give us the ability to elect many more people like Kucinich, Feingold, Wellstone etc.

The thing about backing Kucinich now is that Plan B is just about as good as Plan A, in which he wins the nomination. Plan B is that the lefties consolidate behind him and push the party and whoever is the nominee in his direction.

[SaveElmer]

11. He doesn't stand a snowballs chance...no matter who is advising him...

But if he wants to run I have no problem at all with that...

Nothing wrong with a healthy debate...just do not want to see it get nasty...that does us no good!!!

[ecstatic]

16. Well, as long as he knows when to give up, and doesn't pull a '3rd party' ploy

like Nader/Lieberman did. LOL

[SaveElmer]

19. Well I have no reason to believe...

That he is not a loyal Democrat...I doubt he would take a step like that...

I would be hugely disappointed in him if he did!

[Captain Hilts]

20. Win, what? A three-legged race? nt

[jaysunb]

22. He'll need to explain 2004 first....

Why did he give his votes to Kerry in the Iowa Caucus ???????

[MonkeyFunk]

23. He didn't

He made a deal with Edwards.

And his explanation should be simply "that's caucus politics". I find no fault in that.

[jaysunb]

28. I stand corrected...

and I'm still pissed.

[MonkeyFunk]

30. well...

enjoy your pissed-ness.

And I might suggest that you try to undersand electoral politics.

However, the fact that you had such a fundamental misunderstanding about the Iowa primary in 2004 doesn't give me confidence.


Dilletantes are often sexy, but they tend not to have long careers.

[CTLawGuy]

24. dennis and howard

are two very different people politically.

[madfloridian]

25. That would never work.

Dean is not one of Kucinich's favorite people. A lot went on in 04, and many here know exactly what I am talking about.

[jaysunb]

34. yes we do, don't we...

and check the little "lesson" and smack down I got up thread.

I'm thinking of sending it to HD, just for a few laughs ! :hi:

[Ninja Jordan]

26. Kucinich would never win under any circumstance. Get real.

Why waste your time?

[AtomicKitten]

27. I love Kucinich.

I organized a couple fundraisers for him in Santa Cruz, CA in 2004. He is us. But unfortunately we aren't presidential material. He just doesn't have the umph required to propel himself into the presidency. What he does bring to the table is some down to earth discussion of issues that matter. He will hold the other candidates' feet to the fire.

[cyclezealot]

29. americans are sick of this rip off medical system and endless war.

Kucinich is the only one we can trust to take on the needs of the people. He is resolute to do the right thing. Pacs/bribe money won't sway him as evidenced by his fight as mayor against electric privitatization.
It will give us cause to get involved . Hurrah. Today, Kucinich announced he will run. Ouch, it will hurt our check book again.

[MonkeyFunk]

31. Do you understand that

espousing ideals doesn't mean you get to implement them?

We have the governmental system we have for good reason.

Kucinich would be incredibly ineffective as President. However, I haven't lost a minute's sleep over that possibility.

[cyclezealot]

32. for now we live in Europe.

One thing I do understand, the US medical system puts Americans at risk,due to it's bureurcratic self interest. As it did my wife's health. One thing I understand, we are not returning until it has a system that respects people and works for their best interests. Until then , we can't sleep easily while in America. We have learned there is a better way. From personal experience. Health care is too critical. There are solutions and there are bandaids. Americans will have to live with their choices, we won't.

[DemBones DemBones]

33. Where are you living? And can you stay there long term,

become a citizen, etc.?

[cyclezealot]

49. Roussillon, in the south of France.

Life is peaceful, much cheaper than california, but still a good climate. No guns as we demand. Health care good and costs are controlled. And doctors seem freer to be doctors. This government gives us good health care at affordable costs. Dental too. As far as we are concerned, this government treats us better as visitor with visa's than the US government treated us as citizens.
Sorry to get huffy in my response to those who will not loose sleep because a candidate will not compromise with the best interests of the American people; but, such lack of determination makes us rebel.
part of the reason we left is US health care, but my wife's life at RISK. The hassles US insurance companies put us through in our bout with cancer, is enough to cause one to go crazy. It was so redicilious.
What really puts us off. Those who buy into the likes of MSN and their name calling with honest politicians like Kucinich and supposedly informed people here at DU buy into the media's spin on Kucinich. We all know DK is a threat to monopolies like the US media and that's why they spin against Dk and fools here at DU buy into it. Don't have to think his solutions are the best, but to buy into MSN spin by informed people against true patriots is enough to make a progressive give up.

[cyclezealot]

50. Roussillon, in the south of France.

Life is peaceful, much cheaper than california, but still a good climate. No guns as we demand. Health care good and costs are controlled. And doctors seem freer to be doctors. This government gives us good health care at affordable costs. Dental too. As far as we are concerned, this government treats us better as visitor with visa's than the US government treated us as citizens.
Sorry to get huffy in my response to those who will not loose sleep because a candidate will not compromise with the best interests of the American people; but, such lack of determination makes us rebel.
part of the reason we left is US health care, but my wife's life at RISK. The hassles US insurance companies put us through in our bout with cancer, is enough to cause one to go crazy. It was so redicilious.
What really puts us off. Those who buy into the likes of MSN and their name calling with honest politicians like Kucinich and supposedly informed people here at DU buy into the media's spin on Kucinich. We all know DK is a threat to monopolies like the US media and that's why they spin against Dk and fools here at DU buy into it. Don't have to think his solutions are the best, but to buy into MSN spin by informed people against true patriots is enough to make a progressive give up.
trying to find way to delete second message. guess not possible.

[cyclezealot]

51. now over my rant.

yes. we have a long term commercant visa. Can stay as long as we renew it. And as long as we are good citizens of course. Doubt we'd become Dual citizens. Still have some loyalty to the US, even if it did not treat us all that great in some ways. Wonder what we can do from abroad to help Dennis K or maybe we will come back awhile to help him out. Which primary and which state. We were regional co-ordinators for him out in Calif. Do like the openess of the French. we are allowed to participate in Socialist party politics. We cant vote in national elections of course. But party caucus' we can. and we did. voted for Royal for president.
Do wonder how being bi national if allowed would affect our US income, too? As of now, we have to pay US taxes on our foreign income, so we are doubly taxed. But, then utilities are 1/2 what they were in Calif. and health care is good and cheap so all evens out.

[LittleClarkie]

35. Mitts off of my DNC Chairman

he's busy.

[Vidar]

37. It's a good dream.

[NoPasaran]

39. Sorry, Kucinich couldn't win if Jesus became his top adviser

And included a couple of miracles in the deal.

[ooga booga]

45. Kucinich is a smart, sincere man, but it just ain't happenin'

As a Texan, I see Dennis Kucinich having the same chances as Kinky Friedman had in our last gubernatorial race. Kucinich is far more coherent than our beloved Kinkster, but his chances of success are almost the same. Virtually none to none.

I think Robin Williams could run as a joke like in "Man of the Year" and have a better chance than Dennis Kucinich.

Dennis Kucinich can serve a useful purpose by forcing stronger candidates to engage on important issues -- that is, if he can enough media outlets to cover him and if he can get into some candidate debates. Gadfly candidate not potential nominee candidate.

[NoPasaran]

48. I don't like Kucinich, but I respect him

Kinky, on the other hand, is a vile, disgusting scumbag. Rick Perry owes him a big Thankyou for getting him re-elected.

[cyclezealot]

53. if it is not Kucinich for us

then the election is just a big yawn. Good policy is the reason for elections or else during October we get to stay home and tend to the garden. W/O Kucinich or someone of his character we can just appreciate our favorite season, the Fall and turn off tv to ignore the damned crap they call political spots. If thats an election, we will have none of it.

[NoPasaran]

58. "We will have none of it." Excusez-moi?

You live in France and you're whining about our politics being a yawn?

[cyclezealot]

59. framce has a vibrant left

Always in competition of ideas. And the best of all , the third veto, the people going into the street saying no, if needed. It's right wing government can't get away with what the right gets away with in the US , because of that fact. I think it's in part because the media is also vibrant and challenging. And not a part of the corporate structure as in the US.
As to life in France. Can't help it, they have better health care here, compared to the US.
And Yes, who needs Dean when Kucinich can have Will Pitt. Pitt has special work to do over at Truth Out; but, also important work to do for Dennis.

[NoPasaran]

60. Well, in terms you may be able to understand

Kucinich has about as much chance of being elected president as Alain Krivine does.

Frankly, most of this sparring over presidential politics on DU is pretty pointless, and I doubt whether many of the most vocal candidate groupies do very much in the real world.State and local politics is where a lot of change can actually be effected, and where grassroots efforts really make a difference at this point.

[cyclezealot]

62. terms you may understand.

if that candidate ignores the disgust from the recent election about endless war or supports unworkable health care reform that does little to enhance health care to the average American, many of us have minimal interest in getting involved.

[NoPasaran]

63. I would think

That by living in Europe, you've pretty much taken yourself out of the game anyway.

[robcon]

55. Since when does the "top advisor" win elections?

He has to be tough - not toughen up for the debates and interviews.

It's not in him, IMO.

[DocSavage]

56. Is this the new National Lampoon forum?

There is no way in this big blue planet that Kucinich would gain the nomination. The people that run the party know he is a looser in a national election. Gingrich would get more votes. The electoral base that would vote for him is a fraction of the numbers that someone has to have to win. He would gain no conservatives (face it, it is pretty close to 50/50 right now with the 20% in the middle making the difference), moderates would run, and he would end up like McGovern. You had better find a horse that is going to win this race, not the one with neat colors and a cool name.

[cyclezealot]

57. being a moderate means running for cover,

since I don't know the issues. Or else too weak to take on the powerful lobbyists who spin talking points to avert change. On Issues, polls show Kucinich to be mostly in the mainstream. He is not some far out left field lunatic. Kucinish is mostly working class, with knowledge to fuel his candidacy.

[mrgorth]

61. No, he couldn't.

[Rosemary2205]

64. Kucinich has no chance of winning.

Influencing the debate yes. Winning no. ---- in spite of the fact he'd probably make one hell of a president ---- America will not ever elect anyone who looks and sounds like Kucinich.

[Katzenjammer]

65. I just love how the left-fearing "moderates" come scurrying out from under their rocks

to tell us how Dennis has no chance.

If he really had no chance, they wouldn't bother.