Opinions please: I am substituting today and am sitting at a teacher's desk full of religious...

[DuaneBidoux]

material.

There are all kinds of little pamplets including one called "Living Water, The Radical Message of God's Word "whoever believes in Me has eternal life."" These are sitting on the corner of the teacher's desk in plain (and some would say "pushy") view of the students.

There are also several posters for a church on the walls (which I presume to be the teacher's church).

This is a public high school in the metro Houston area. What amazes me the most however is that this a biology teacher and class.

I'm really torn because I would like to say something to the school district officials but I am trying to get a permanent position with this school system.

Is this okay on the teacher's part?

[notadmblnd]

1. I'd toss them in the garbage.

nt

[Carni]

17. GMTA

That is exactly what I'd do!

[wyldwolf]

2. It's ok until someone complains. Send an anonymous letter.

[PresidentObama]

4. I agree with wyldwolf.

If you want a teaching position full time there, do it anonymously. But thats not right letting a science teacher get away with pushing religion in our schools.

[villager]

5. Yes. "I saw these in the classroom...."

If it's anonymous, they won't know if it's a student, parent, or other teacher, but they'd have to act....

[johnlal]

26. Be the best teacher you can be...

If you fear reprisals in the Public School System for reporting proselization by a science teacher, then an anonymous letter probably won't stop these kids from getting bad information. (Although it certainly won't hurt to try it). However, you can make a difference by becoming a permanent member of the faculty, and by dedicating yourself to educating these young minds.
The good news is that you have already decided to take this course of action. Just be a good teacher. Make yourself a role model. Some kids will get it, and some will not. But maybe you will inspire children to use their heads. Good luck!

[LiberalFighter]

53. Don't report it right away... let a bit of time lapse so they don't connect

it with you

[Lisa0825]

7. Just what I was going to say.

I would wait a little while after you're done subbing for her, so it won't look too coincidental. Then send an anonymous complaint as a concerned parent.

[huskerlaw]

56. Agreed, and also

take some of the pamphlets with you to include in the letter.

[Hawkowl]

62. PHOTOS

Make sure you include pictures of the materials and where they are posted in your letter. Also, I would even include samples of the pamphlets. Send it to the school board. If there aren't any results you could try the media.

[PresidentObama]

3. Not it isn't okay. Do the right thing and report it n/t

[valerief]

6. Mention "evolution" positively in every sentence to the students.

[don954]

8. take pictures and send an anonymous letter

with the pictures so they cant just BS their way out of it...

[flvegan]

9. If I were a teacher, I wouldn't think it okay to

put copies of "Why Vegan?" in such a manner. If I'm in a position of influence like that, I would keep my personal beliefs largely to myself. If it's professionally okay, as in "not against the rules" okay, I'd look in your Code of Conduct.

[jobycom]

10. You might carefully phrase a question to the principle.

"I'm filling in for Teacher X, and she has all this religious stuff on her desk. I know that's not allowed, so I was wondering if she confiscated it from someone, or if it's part of some project she's trying to create? Do you know?"

If you push them or complain too hard, kiss the job offer goodbye. On the other hand, if she is pushing religion, they might be unhappy with her, anyway. You might get her job.

[Avalux]

11. Don't touch them, they're not your property.

But I would do as another DUer suggests and write an anonymous letter to the superintendent of the district. Good luck. :hi:

[Jackpine Radical]

12. I don't think it's OK on the teacher's part.

Nevertheless, that doesn't mean you have an obligation to raise hell about it. I think you need to consider the various options, the possible outcomes of those options, and how your needs and concerns fit into that matrix. For example, if you anticipate that you could get the admin to actually make the teacher change their behavior and that they would be thankful to you for doing it, then you probably ought to do it. If, on the other hand, you think the admin will turn a blind eye to the inappropriate stuff & punish you for bringing it to their unwilling attention, then there would be little point in making a stink. Think it through & do what your heart & head combined tell you to do.

[Lars39]

13. Do you have a camera or can get one today?

This stuff needs to be documented or else someone will get word to this teacher that someone has complained. The posters and pamphlets would conveniently disappear before someone in authority checked out the complaint. I wonder why the principal hasn't noticed and taken action before.

[LiberalFighter]

54. If you do the camera bit and it is a digital camera

change the date on it to sometime in January.

And make sure the file date matches with the date on the picture.

[AndyA]

14. I agree with the other responses. Send an anonymous letter.

The advice to wait a while before doing so is also good advice. I'd send a letter to the school board, and cc the Principal of the school as well, just to make sure several levels of responsibility get the message.

[mtnsnake]

15. If you're trying to get a position there

then don't ruin your chances by saying anything directly to them. Complain about it to them, but do it anonymously. Write them and tell them you're a concerned citizen who's gotten negative feedback about this teacher's religious interference with the students. Since it appears from your profile you live in TX, don't leave your name on the letter, and be sure to tell them you're a concerned Republican parent.

BTW, how is it that you can spend time on your classroom computer doing unrelated activities? Isn't that dangerous? Teachers in NYS get busted occasionally for things like porn on their classroom computers. The authorities are always looking into the computers, so be careful about your online activities in the classroom, even if it's only DU related.

[wake.up.america]

16. Keep on the good side, don't say a word that might jeopardize your chances at...

tenure.

[Parche]

18. Pamphlets

Do you have matches or a lighter near you????

A big fireplace would work !!!

[Dinger]

33. Take Them Home

What's the teacher gonna do? Complain?

[Bandit]

19. Like many have said an anonymous letter

But not just to the Principle, send one to superintendent of schools and also one to the editor of the local newspaper. Make it a public matter so it has to be addressed and can't just be swept under the rug.

[kath]

20. If at all possible, send PHOTOS along with the anonymous letter, and

do as bandit says, sending to principal, supt., local newspaper.
COnsider contacting ACLU as well.

[Dinger]

32. Make It Public

And not just in Houston either. Document what you see (Do you have a camera?), and send it EVERYWHERE!

[Melinda]

21. My son the teacher says:

Don't assume they are part of the teachers classroom curriculum. There are Christian related clubs in the public school system, and each must have a teacher advisor. According to my son, it is perfectly acceptable to have such materials on the desk and posters on he wall if such a club exists and meets in this classroom.

BTW, my son teaches social sciences and his curriculum includes teaching/discussion of all theisms; he does not push nor promote his own personal belief system (he is a Buddist) above any other.

My advice would be this: gather all the facts if you decide to pursue a complaint. However if I were in your position, I'd probably sit this one out. The presence of such materials alone is not clear cut evidence of any possible educational violation.

Best of luck! :hi:

[Hangingon]

27. I agree.

You don't know how they material is used. It is just something you seem to have found while going thru another teachers desk. I would assume that the school would know if the teacher were proselytizing. Anonymous letters deserve to be sent straight to the circular file.

[The2ndWheel]

22. Write a note to the teacher to meet you at 3 o'clock

Good ol' fashioned high school fight.

Write an anonymous letter to authority? If you really believe in something, at least put your name on it.

[FormerDittoHead]

23. Without knowing WHY there are there, did you think there may be another reason for them?

For example, if a brain-washed fundie kid were to confront the teacher on, excuse me, SCIENCE, the teacher would have these 'materials' there to cover their butt.

I'm just playing devil's advocate (joke!)

[BoneDaddy]

24. I love the folks

who say "throw them in the garbage". If that was my stuff, I would track you down and put a whipping on your ass. That is my personal property.

That said, the items may be legitamately innappropriate in a public school and alerting the officials might be necessary. An anonymous letter may be the first step.

[Greyhound]

25. How "christian" of you.

:eyes:

[BoneDaddy]

29. Who said I am a Christian?

I don't identify with any Christian faith. This is about property rights being violated. So you are saying because you disagree with that person's faith (as irrational as it might be), that gives you the right to destroy their property? That is sad. I am no fan of organized religion, but that is way overboard.

I would lobby to make sure the teacher keeps that out of the public school, however, and if he is speaking to the students about it in a preaching manner, they should be reprimanded. The stuff should be removed, but not by you.

[Greyhound]

31. No, my objection is to your threat of violence in reaction to someone throwing away some useless

crap. And you say that throwing away that crap "is way overboard"?

I also doubt that you would do anything at all over this affront, let alone go through the hassle of lobbying the school board over this completely unprofessional and explicitly illegal action.

[BoneDaddy]

35. LOL

Give me a break. You have no clue what you are talking about. You violate my personal goods, steal, break or violate my stuff, I will remind you never to do that again. You may not remember it all, but that is not my problem. You would be less likely to do that in the future as I hoped you would have learned your lesson.

As for following through with letting the administration know, I would most absolutely. As for unprofessional, I agree. Illegal? You have to be kidding me.

[Greyhound]

38. And I quote, "If that was my stuff, I would track you down and put a whipping on your ass"

Not that it is at all likely that you are even capable of following through with your threat, but you did make it nonetheless.

The whole issue of prayer in school, in spite of the ravings of the deluded masses (who also seem to forget that if it's OK for their brand of fantasy, it is also OK for the other brands they hate with such intensity) is a settled point of law in the public school system, so yes, it is illegal. We are not talking about a comparative religion, or a philosophy class here, and the intent is clear. Now this may all be taking place in one of the many backward areas of our country where this kind of behavior is tolerated, but it is still illegal.

BTW, if you were so foolish as to try and make good on your threat, I can assure you that you would have ample time to reflect on your mistake. The first rule of being a bad-ass is that there is always a badder ass out there.

[BoneDaddy]

44. Are you taking me personally?

stop living in your little fantasy world. If someone vandalized my things, I would do my best to knock them out, plain and simple, whether that mean in reality or figuatively pressing charges or getting you fired. If you have a problem with that, I could care less. Do me a favor, go ahead and vandalize someone's goods and then make your case, I somehow doubt your argument will hold much water in the real world. And use ice, it keeps the swelling down.

As for following the story as it was written and not, again, your mass assumptions, the story was about a substitute teacher who found religious material in a biology teachers class. I have, since the start of this thread agreed that there is a case that he is crossing the religion/school line and most likely board policy and some disciplinary action need be taken but you don't have a right to destroy their property regardless of how you view their religious beliefs.

Of course there are badder asses out there, but I never go looking for a fight unless, of course, you fuck with my family, me or my life. My goods are part of my life. What don't you understand or are you still projecting your problems onto me?

As for working in a metropolitan school, I do. I work in a school where there are 85 different languages/dialects spoken. I work with Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindu's etc. I work with kids from all over the globe. Some of my staff are of the above religions. We have a Christian Atheletes Club on campus as well as an East Asian Club, a Latino Club, a Woman's Club and a Muslim Students Club. The very prescence of religious material is not heresy.

If you can make the case that a teacher is proseltyzing in class, then you have a case, but don't you attempt, lamely, to justify the destruction of someone's property.

[Greyhound]

45. Posters on the wall and pamphlets (plural) displayed on the desk,

there is no doubt about the intent.

Since you apparently value your crap over another person's well-being, I only hope you live in one of those places where this is prevalent and tolerated, where I'm sure you are quite happy.

[BoneDaddy]

46. God you are a bore

move on please.

[Greyhound]

55. and yet he continues to reply and never addresses the issue

I'm shocked...:eyes:

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Greyhound]

58. Your apparent willingness to resort to violence over a bunch of paper.

and while I do not resort to using alerts, except in the most extreme cases, it is against the rules to call others dumbfucks.

[Greyhound]

59. Let me state that I did not alert on this, apparently a mod was watching. n/t

[BoneDaddy]

60. What the hell

are you talking about?

[griffi94]

28. Reply from a school law attorney in Texas

HI - I'm griffi94's wife, and he called me in to read this post. There are a lot of thoughtful answers that have been made, but I thought I'd add my legal 2 cents.

Teachers are allowed to express their personal beliefs at school, as long as it is age appropriate (talking to elem. kids is different than talking to HS kids) and as long as it does not give the appearance, from the student's perspective, of endorsing a particular belief system. So there is not always a bright line to determine what is protected free speech and what can be regulated by the school.

In this case, if the material is there solely as the personal property of the teacher, not school related and not curriculum related, it probably does cross the line. But, as many posters pointed out, we don't know exactly why it is there. i like reply #10. That way you (the sub) can accomplish several things: you carefully let the principal know about it just in case he/she doesn't already know, and you also get a chance to talk to the principal about educational matters and help give yourself a little boost when it comes to hiring time.

You don't have any particular legal duty to do anything, though, so if you would rather lay low you can do that, too.

Another post pointed out that if the material relates to an after-school club, it would be okay to have it there - I add, MAYBE. Depends on the policies of the school as to after-school clubs.

If you're interested in classroom law, I do a blog, Texas Teacher Law, at http://www.teacherlaw.blogspot.com

[tulip]

39. good advice

This kind of thing is in many schools. What may be allowable in one school district may not be in another. Until a parent complains the administrators will look the other way......if it gets into the news they will say "We didn't know". The only one who is risking their career is the teacher who owns the materials. Let them take the fall. Do not take photos and send them to the newspaper.....it will eventually lead back to you.

Before you do or say anything consult with the law and the association rep for the school. You're not a member but they might give you some sound advice.

Remember superintendents in one school district meet with other superintendents in neighboring school districts all the time. Not only will you blow it for yourself there but it could affect your job searching abilities in nearby areas.

[Irreverend IX]

30. Don't bother telling the administrators...

Tell the media. School officials shit bricks when reporters start asking questions. Just make sure you don't tip the local news outlets too soon after you finish your sub work, and do it anonymously.

[Earth_First]

34. You could always leave a couple of these...

http://www.weirdcrap.com/chick/intro.html

[HuffleClaw]

36. take photos and send 'em to the local tv/newspapers

and the school board along with the relevent regulations in their charter about such things.

[noonwitch]

37. Is the teacher just making the pamphlets available or is she pushing them on students?

I don't have a problem with kids in school discussing religion, especially at the high school level. I only have a problem if the teacher pushes his or her views on the students. The pamphlet thing with fundamentalists is their way of spreading the word without verbally getting in people's faces.

I'd say let it go if the kids and their parents aren't complaining. It's their place to complain, not yours.

[Blue_Tires]

40. i sub too, and have seen some religious classrooms/schools

i'll be honest, you'd better get a general feel of how that school/system and the higher-ups in the administration feel about it--if your teacher seems to be really out there compared with his/her colleagues, then I'd report it. But if not, I'd keep my mouth shut.

[IndianaGreen]

41. You said the magic word: Texas

I am sure that the science teacher in question is teaching the little kiddies that the Earth is flat and that T-Rex lived alongside Noah.

You won't get any support in the Bible Belt for anything that smacks of Separation of Church and State. We have our own lunatics up here in the Midwest and, while they are not a majority, they sure do make quite a stink all the time.

[LWolf]

42. Probably not.

Assuming that they aren't working on, or about to begin, a unit that looks at propaganda, religious politics, etc. I can't off hand think of any real use for those items, but I hesitate to crucify someone 3rd hand, so to speak. Pun intended, lol. A casual comment to the admin on the way out might be in order: "I so much enjoyed working in Mr./Ms. __________'s classroom today. I didn't know the ___th grade curriculum included religious studies!"

[Zhade]

43. Why are we ignoring the real problem? The posters are a violation.

Even if there's a Christan club that meets there after school hours, it's not like those posters are only being put up during the club's time, is it? I mean, they were up when the OP got there.

That is a DIRECT violation of the separation of church and state.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

47. An anonymous letter will probably not remain anonymous.

Unless you think the teacher in question and the school board are stupid, I wouldn't recommend an anonymous letter - I suspect it will be reasonably easy for them to guess where it's come from.

If you want to do something about this, then talk in as friendly and as non-confrontational way as possible to the teacher in question, and if that doesn't achieve anything - and it probably won't - and you really want to make an issue of it then talk to the school board.

Basically, though, you're going to have to make a choice - do you want friendly relations with that teacher and their friends and colleagues, or do you want to try and get the posters removed (which you probably won't succeed at, although you may)? I don't think you'll be able to achieve both.

[Bridget Burke]

48. Ask the principal for clarification; don't phrase it as a "complaint"

Is he or she aware of the situation? What are the relevant district policies?

If the principal is a nutcase, you might have a problem. But anonymous letters are cowardly.

[ktlyon]

49. It is completely out of line and inappropriate

It should be reported and looked into. Students should be questioned to see if this teacher has overstepped the bounds when talking to students about church and religion. I'm not sure of the rules but this seems wrong to me.

[Curious George]

50. General discussion

Hmm...First of all assume nothing. What do you know, there is religious material on the desk, and a photos of a church. You do not know who it belongs to, nor do you know how it was placed there. It's religious material, we're not talking about drugs, weapons, porn, or offensive stuff, I dont'think this stuff creates anthing that will potentially harm children. Making waves at this point will do nothing but create problems for you with the administration, I am certain that if they are like most school districts they have greater issues to be concerned with. I'd consentrate on actually teaching these students something of value.

[Dinger]

51. Give This Bible-Thumper A Free Pass?

This situation can be dealt with, AND the kids can still receive a good education. Also, this teacher's whole career does not depend on being forced into silence.

[LeftishBrit]

52. My feeling is that you have two options...

either to report this openly to the headteacher, or to say nothing.

If you report it, you can do it as tactfully as possible, e.g. stating that you're reporting it because you're concerned that this might put the school in an embarrassing situation if a parent misinterpreted it, rather than making a full-frontal attack.

You might also decide to say nothing so as to protect yourself. Having been myself in a fragile, non-tenured position for a long time, I wouldn't blame you. Also I do feel that there are two possibilities here (assuming that the teacher is actually proselytizing). One is that she is doing it secretly against the ethos of the school, and the other is that the school accepts it. If the school accepts it, there's probably nothing you can do; and if she's acting against the ethos of the school, then I think the kids are probably largely protected just by knowing that this teacher is weird and not doing what most adults in their lives approve of doing at school.

I respectfully disagree with the idea of sending an anonymous letter. I feel that (a) this would probably not be taken seriously; and (b) if it were, then the children might be more harmed and influenced negatively by knowing that anonymous complaints can be used to harm someone's career, than by the religious proselytizing of one person. I think that setting the example of anonymous letter-writing is so potentially damaging, and risks having such serious spin-off effects in creating an atmosphere of fear or malice (e.g. if children think that they can get their own back on a teacher who has given them a low mark, by reporting them to authority), that it should only be considered under the most extreme of circumstances. I can see situations that are so extreme that they might justify it (e.g. a teacher's physical or sexual abuse of a child); but this behaviour, though bad, is not quite in that category. JMO.

[Guaranteed]

61. If you're going to do something, be careful that you have a very clear

idea of what, exactly, is untoward about what the teacher is doing beforehand.

I.E., the teacher has 1st Amendment rights. Just be ready for "Why can't a teacher express his or her religious views in school?"

[SemperEadem]

63. ask the students what they are and why they are there

they do have bible study classes in schools these days.

While it may grate against the nerves of some here, the fact remains the pamphlets don't belong to you and since you don't know what their function is, it's always best to get some information before acting.

There may be a legitimate reason why they are there. There may be a reason which has nothing to do with bible study classes and is the teacher's own personal brainwashing stash. Either way, asking the students first and then asking the principle second the questions one of the posts above laid out would be your best bet. If the reason is the latter and not the former, perhaps you should encourage the children to talk to their parents about what is in that classroom--depending upon the make up of that particular community, they may either embrace it, or they may reject it... it can't hurt for the parents to know that this teacher has this material in their classroom and needs to explain themselves if they're attempting to out-parent the parents when it comes to their child's faith and what religious values they choose to teach them. AFter all, the parent, not the teacher, is responsible for the student.