Universal Health Care: a worthly litmus test?

[Stinky The Clown]

No doubt you've seen the various threads about my recent side trip into that part of the world peopled by the 'health care community'.

My situation is not the issue. I have every confidence I'll eventually be back to full on 'grumpy clown status'.

But damn! What if I were not so fortunate as to have health insurance. I know that many of you, right here on DU, are not.

I've spent a good part of the afternoon musing about your situation. I mean, I've always been aware of the very situation with regards to health care. Don't think that, because I'm posting this now, after having a serious issue face me up close and personal, that I have finally found religion. This is one religion I have always had.

I just want to say a few things about my own views of health care, and the right of **each and every one of us** to have equal care. And further, that the equal care shoujld be the best available to science, ecnomics be damned.

When I was laying on the gurney in the ER, they were deciding what to do with me. The cardiologist and the ER doc were conferring and thjey were discussing how to move me to the hospital that had the 'license' to do the procedure my condition warranted. Then the cardiologist informed me that his group didn't take my particular isurance, but that the head guy where I would be going did take it.

A few thoughts ....... why is not every hospital 'licensed' to do what, today, today is actually a fairly routine cardiac catherization? Why did we have to incur the completely unecessary cost of a medevac transport? What the fuck is **that** about?

And then there's the aftercare issues. I said to the first cardiologist, "What if I diddn't have insurance?" He said no one would be turned down for the initial procedure. The problem comes in the aftercare.

In my case, the aftercare, beyond the consults and follow-up visits, involves some drugs that I need to make viable the long term efficacy of the stents. Who pays for this?

I have always felt that 'access to health care' is a bullshit measure. It only means that insurance stays as part of the equation.

Not good enough.

There is nothing acceptable apart from universal, cradle to grave, everyone is equal, single payer, government supported, unfettered, health care for EVERYONE.

Period.

Put the insurance companies out of business and make UNIVERSAL healthcare a part of what we buy with our taxes.

I am, today, closer to seeing this as a litmus test when I choose a candidate for an elected office.

I just had to get that off my chest.

[DonkeyInChinaShop]

1. Hope you listened to Obama's speech yesterday than

He said the next President of the United States needs to establish universal health care by the end of their first term.

[Warren Stupidity]

7. Has he clarified what exactly he means by that?

Last time I looked he was touting romneycare and that is corporatist bullshit and a diversion, a last ditch diversion, to prevent extending medicare to everyone.

[Lasher]

56. Obama is still touting health care with insurance companies included.

Is any Democrat proposing single-payer universal healthcare through traditional Medicare? You know the insurance companies are just waiting to bury anyone who suggests such a thing.

[Stinky The Clown]

57. I'm pretty sure Kucinich's plan calls for single payer and the death of .....

..... the insurance industry. I also recall that Clark called for single payer in the 04 cycle but am not familiar with the details of his plan (or if it has morphed between then and now).

[nuxvomica]

2. Universal health care would help business, too

Businesses wouldn't have their profits siphoned off to the health insurance companies nor have their workers spending so much time dealing with the insurance issues. I'd like to see health insurance companies simply go out of business. They had their chance and they blew it. Even some non-profits are making more money than they know what to do with.

[Union Thug]

3. I agree. To share an anecdote...

My neighbor is a 20K/year, 42 year old truck driver. He delivers and refills candy machines for businesses included in about a 60 mile perimeter.

A couple years ago, he broke his ankle over the course of a weekend. He had no health insurance. He was barely able to afford the initial treatment, he lost many hours of work, spent what few pennies he had managed to put away on survival and lived a subsistence lifestyle for the time it took to get him back in the truck.

Now, here's the rub. Something didn't heal correctly. He has chronic pain in the ankle, but he won't say anything to his boss for fear of being taken off the job, and he cannot afford to see a doctor. He just lives with it and drinks to take the edge off.

And here we are, in the richest country in the world.

Yeah, it's a great country. Uh-huh.

[TomClash]

19. He's in the wrong social class

He actually works for a living.

My employees don't pay for health care - no contributions, no deductible, nothing. If they need to go to the doctor, they go. Business cutting health care because it is too costly is bullshit. It's an inalienable right.

I'd pay taxes for universal health care in a heartbeat.

[Warren Stupidity]

4. Couldn't agree more, welcome back, get healthy.

Having gone through a serious illness as a self employed person, let me tell you about health insurance access anxiety. I was not allowed to be sick, even though I was sick as a dog. Everytime I hear some mealy mouthed romney care bullshit touted as universal healthcare I want to strangle somebody.

I have two huge hurdles for any candidate for president: the war and UHC. If they cannot get over those two barriers I can't support them.

[LWolf]

5. Yes. It's one litmus test.

Happily, there are at least 3 candidates speaking about universal health care, and one of them has been working this issue for years, including introducing legislation into the house.

[Adelante]

6. "I just had to get that off my chest"

Back in the saddle, Husb :D

[Double T]

8. Universal 'Congressional Grade' Health Care should be provided........

to ALL citizens of the USA; after all, if great health care is good enough for our elected Congressional Representatives, then it should be GOOD ENOUGH for THEIR constituents ALSO. The greed mongering wall street powered HMOs should be REPLACED with Universal Health Care provided THROUGH the government for ALL CITIZENS; increased taxes would be REQUIRED to provide the same.

[jaxx]

9. I am out preaching this everyday to anybody who brings up medical care.

The idea that people do without because of no money has got to be stopped. Getting rid of the insurance vultures is the first step. One care plan for everyone, paid by us, and and nobody can touch it, but we the people. They have robbed social security and they would try to rob this too. It has to be protected and it has to start soon.

[yy4me]

10. Glad you are well enough to belly-ache about the situation. You

are right, 100%! For years, my family has been struggling to pay health insurance. We were self-employed but the cost of individual insurance was one of the reasons we closed our business. It was a small mom and pop business and $12,000 a year for health insurance was far too much. For the past 14 years, I have have been trying to find and keep jobs that have insurance available to employees. Not free, just a group policy that allows you to pay a share of a "group" rate, and not the baloney--"individual policy holders cost much more" bull spewed by the insurance companies. The unbelievable injustice of our system is am embarrassment to the country. We need to cover everyone equally. No deductibles, no pre-existing condition baloney. That means all levels. Preventative care, acute care and after treatment care. Whatever you need should be available. No-one should have to go without care or run the risk of loosing their house, savings or anything else.

Before our current Iraq fiasco, I remember the politico's spewing the fact that the country could not possibly find the money to offer a national health care plan. Well, we certainly found enough for the war fast enough. Of course, we even found $343 billion extra. What a bunch of hypocrites in Washington. If we can find dollars to fund a war, we can find dollars to fund health care. I'd ask Exxon to be the first up with a plan. I'll be too old to ever see a national plan but maybe some of our citizens will see it in their lifetime. The fact that I am from Massachusetts does not do me any good. The state mandated insurance is $380.00 a month for an individual. Huge deductibles, huge co-pays. It is a joke and is not going to fly. We need NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE and NOW.

[boobooday]

11. Firstly -- glad to hear you are home!

I agree completely with you.

I have a friend who is a multi-millionaire. He is a sweet guy, but he lives off a trust fund, and has never had a 'job'.

He has chronic health problems, and he can't buy health insurance. HE IS A MULTI-MILLIONAIRE AND HE CAN'T BUY HEALTH INSURANCE AT ANY PRICE. At least he can pay his bills, unlike most people (he was recently hospitalized for a month), but I think that his situation points out the stupidity of the system.

To me, the whole idea of private, for-profit health insurance defies logic. If you need it, they won't sell it to you. What kind of sense does that make? A health insurance structure that profits from denying care to the people who need it most.

Disgusting.

[Jackpine Radical]

12. I was in a rollover accident a couple of years ago & was transported

to the nearest ER. My insurance co. refused to pay for the ambulance the cops had called because that ambulance service was not an authorized provider.

The insurance co. was Humana.

I'm making sure as many people as possible know about that.

Humana refused to pay for emergency ambulance service for one of their insured people because the cops called the wrong provider.


You're not safe with Inhumana.

Thank you for letting me vent on your thread.

And welcome back. Wonderful to see your name on the board again.

[Stinky The Clown]

17. Jackpine .... vent all you want in 'my thread' ..... that's the point of this ..... first we get mad

and then, if enough of us do, we get what we want.

Vent away, my friend!

[Warpy]

13. Insurance companies divvy up the hospitals in a given region

by taking the lowest bids on care they can get. Licensing a catheterization lab isn't the deal. Finding the hospital that deals with your particular insurance plan is.

Therefore, hospital A, where the ambulance brought you, might have a great cath lab and top notch doctors, but if the insurance company doesn't have a contract with them, you are going to be in for another ambulance ride.

The problem is that a second ride can be fatal. So you have a decision: do you get care when and where you need it and plan on fighting your insurance company for the next year and a half, do you risk getting into debt for the rest of your life, or do you risk that ambulance ride? ,

Ah, the best medical system in the world. "Your money or your life?"

[Stinky The Clown]

18. I can understand that ...... but only to a point .......

I can understyand them sending you to particular (and often inconveneient) hospital if the issue is, say, hemherroidectomy. It isn't life and death. Its important, but not time sensitive.

Life and death stuf? That **ought** to be a whole other issue.

So long as the system is, as you so rightly term it, 'Your money or your life' then the system needs to be changed.

[Warpy]

21. Single payer

Expand Medicare. Accept nothing less.

[Stinky The Clown]

26. I completely agree

Nothing less is the goal.

[Cobalt Violet]

14. It one huge issue for me.

I think your story is a good example of why even people with it should really consider it important. And there are other good reasons why it would be good for everyone.

[Hissyspit]

15. Welcome back, Stinky!

:)

[Hippo_Tron]

16. The problem is that it's impossible until we have public financing

We need to ban PAC contributions and lobbyist influence over our legislators and make them accept matching funds. Until we do, the health care industry will continue to be able to buy our legislators and universal health care will never pass.

Public financing is something that we should work for but it's going to take some time. Until we get it, I'm fine with attempting to expand coverage in whatever way possible for the short term.

[Stinky The Clown]

20. Please don' t take my stated 'all or nothing' descrption as opposition to

sound interim measures. These plans for insuring all kids or all the poor, or other half-way measure are all okay if for no other reasons than they get people covered.

The problem with them, however, is that they give cover for those opposed to **real** solution - universal, single payer, taxpayer paid healthcare for everyone.

[Hippo_Tron]

32. Yea I understand

I'm just trying to emphasize how important public financing is to many important things that we want like single payer health care.

BTW, good to hear that you're doing well after the surgery.

[TomClash]

22. Single payer nt

[phillysuse]

23. Agree completely but we need to frame it differently

I like Medicare for All, rather than universal health care. It's easier to understand, most people know someone on Medicare - Mom, Grandma or themselves. Medicare is not threatening.
In 1965, the Republicans tried to pain Medicare as socialized medicine but over 40 years later, everyone knows it is not.
They know Medicare as offering choice of physician and hospital, i.e. private, for profit medicine - a truly capitalist endeavor.

Glad you are feeling better and sorry about your encounter with the American health care system driven by the profit motives of large insurance companies.

And remember, Edwards wants to keep large insurance companies in the loop.; I don't think Hillary knows what she stands for regarding health care; in 1994 she was for highly managed care controlled by her friends in the big insurance companies, such as Zoe Baird from Aetna. Now mostly she wants to be President.
Obama doesn't have a plan to get to "Universal" health care yet but maybe he will get Medicare for All.
Wesley Clark, the unannounced, is for a single payer system but since he hasn't announced yet, we don't have his details as to how he would transition to single payer.

[Stinky The Clown]

28. "The transition to single payer" .......

..... I'm no epxert. I'm just a pissed off clown who just had a heart attack.

The transition is easy. Disband all health insurance companies, HMOs, for profit hospitals, drug companies, etc. Put their employees to work in a single payer health care organization paid for by the feds. No more health insurance 'premiums' to be paid. Every citizen and every company contributes to the single pool of costs now incurred by the government.

Who's 'injured' by this plan? The stockholders of the eliminated companies. Who benefits? Everyone, including the stockholders of the eliminated comapnies.

I call that a fair trade off.

I'm certain it is more complicated than that, but not much.

[phillysuse]

34. I agree intellectually with you but I think the reality

is that this will be done incrementally.

Edwards wants to set up a government system in competition with private insurance.

Another way to do it is to expand Medicare downward - i.e. starting at age 55 for 5 years, then age 50 etc. You could call that Medi-boomer.

Or insure all children first - that would likely be cheaper than the 55 to 65 age group (I'm in that, by the way) and you could call it
Medi-Kids.

[Warren Stupidity]

38. It really isn't more complicated than that.

Extending medicare to everyone could be done in a matter of months. It is just stunningly stupid that 40 years later we still haven't taken the next step.

[Gregorian]

24. I ensured my vehicles two days ago.

Yes, plural. I'm a god damned American. It's my right! Or my fate, as it may be.

At the end of the process, I leaned over the desk of the man who owns this insurance agency. I said, instead of buying ammunition, why don't we subsidize medicine. The answer that came back, was a binary one. And I didn't expect this since this is in the quaint, liberal town of Mendocino. Do you want to live in a socialized country!? I was blasted back a bit. But what do I expect from an insurance man.

As I drove home, my subconscious was heard to repeat over and over "as we do to the least of us". And after watching De La Vega talk about her book on cspan, I am now saying to myself "preemptive medicine". And after all, what is the greater threat- terrorism or disease? Is there even a comparison? Not by magnitudes!

I think discussion, in it's very essence, has been derailed in America. And in other places, also. But when the talk of universal health care is like tip toeing on thin ice, we are not able to even address the actual subject. Does anyone actually want bombs dropped on them? Does anyone actually want a percutaneous transluminal coronary angioplasty without the aid of financial assistance? I honestly think that we need to learn how to create honest discussion with actual facts before we can even begin to discuss the actual issue. Without a doubt a genuine elected official with the power to be heard will make a difference. As it stands, the fox is in the hen house. Cacophony has ensued.

And one last thing. Plenty of people are stressed beyond their limits, and haven't had coronoary occlusions. My advice is to keep being involved until something changes. Of course, we all know you have no choice.

It's not the dark ages any more. It's time to act democratic. I had to get this off my chest also.

[The Count]

25. Yeay! That clown's back! recommended just for that - before even reADING

As for litmus test - I have a bad feeling that I'll be presented again with the choice between an opportunistic, war supporting Dem vs a fascist GOP-er who wants to nuke the world...

[Fovea]

27. Universal Healthcare

For everyone who needs it.
It is not just a litmus test in an abstract sense.
It is every human beings inalienable right.

For how can the sick pursue happiness?
How much liberty does the disabled citizen, facing ongoing challenges have?

Universal Healthcare is like universal suffrage. Medical treatment must be extended to all.

To do otherwise is to suggest to Americans that it is ok making some of us second class citizens because of our health.

[McCamy Taylor]

29. Not just universal. Single payer, emphasis on prevention.

[gratefultobelib]

30. A word about Medicare...

Since my husband and I are entering the Medicare years, we've been surprised to learn the insurance companies are still involved. Were we naive, unlearned or what? There are a BUNCH of insurance cos vying for our business, i.e. our Medicare will go through them, if we so choose. We thought we would be dealing strictly with the gov with no middlemen/women.

[phillysuse]

33. Medicare D is administered through private drug plans

Prior to Medicare D, straight Medicare did not offer drug coverage, only coverage for hospitals and physicians.

The Medicare D plan was a great boondoggle for Big Pharma and for insurance companies, all of which developed competing plans.

For the patients, it is true that some people now have prescription drug coverage that they did not before. But many people, especially those of limited means who own their own home, fall into the donut hole and year after year have to come up with 3600 after the first 2400 of drug costs is paid.

So not only do we need Medicare for All, we need Medicare D reformed to eliminate the donut hole. To make it affordable, we may need to have enhanced cost for those seniors making over a certain amount/year or those with extensive assets, for example income over $100,000 per year.

[gratefultobelib]

37. OK, OK, it's all coming back to me now! I remember all of the coverage over

this issue. Funny how you pay attention when it affects you! Now that I think about it, my husband hit the "donot hole" in November, and when he told his dr, the dr said, "Oh wait a minute," went and got him enough samples to last 6 months! Also I've been able to find generics for everything I take, although it took some research online.

I appreciate your nice, succinct explanation of Medicare Part D. I remember when my mother was paying $350 per month on drugs. It was a difficult time for her.

[phillysuse]

39. There is nothing nice or succinct about Medicare D!

There are anywhere from 20 to 40 different health plans in most urban communities, fewer in less populous areas. To compare plans, you do best going on line, which creates a hardship for the oldest patients, those of limited means and education and those who are limited in their ability to see, use their hands, use a computer or understand the English language or read.

You can change plans once yearly and you pick your plan by comparing the medications you are on and which plan best covers them. Of course, you must try not to get an additional illnesses for which you might need medication, because unless you can read the future, you can't check which plan covers medication you don't need yet and aren't on.

It looks like a plan designed by a committee of lawyers and that's what it is.

[gratefultobelib]

42. OK, nice and succinct is out! Your explanation was very helpful, though,

and this second post also clarifies further. But what a mess for some of our citizens. I am at a loss to try and understand why this has to be so complicated. Yes, I am handy with the Internet, but like you point out, many are not. I am so relieved not to have to be paying $429 monthly (starting this month! Medicare will be around $90) for my health insurance, that I forget about the many others who are struggling far worse.

[AbbyR]

31. I'm not sure I will have a litmus test, but

I will be watching the universal health care issue very carefully, and that, plus global warming, the war(s) and education, are my major issues. Would that be a good project for the research forum to undertake - a chart showing each candidates stand on various issues? I know I'd like to see it.

My husband died in August, and I have had my fill of corporate medicine.

[Greyhound]

35. First, let me say how happy I am to see you're up and pounding the keyboard again.

Second, as with 90% of your posts. I agree 100%.

Why are Dennis Kucinich and Russ Feingold the only elected representatives that are talking about this? It isn't like it is some radical notion that the majority of people disagree with and wouldn't support, quite the opposite. So why aren't any of the "frontrunners" (Hello Hillary and John and Barack) talking about this? All we hear from them are plans to steal even more of our money to continue and expand the corporate rape of our country.
:kick: & R

[Porcupine]

36. Universal Health Care- nothing less. Absolute litmus test.

The US can not afford to pretend that our current health care system will fix itself. Every fix offered by the corporate rats is just a way to steal more money.

Also- health care needs to come off the payroll cost of US workers and employers. Americans need jobs and small employers need the ability to expand business.

[many a good man]

40. Single payer, all or nothing

The only reason I say that is because if we merely expand MediCare or subsidize the for-profit insurance companies EVERYBODY's costs are going to go up with higher taxes. People will then associate "universal" health care with higher costs.

With single payer across the board health care costs go down for everybody due to lower administrative costs and cutting out high CEO salaries. The only difference is you pay the tax man instead of the insurance company. But you pay them less than what you do right now.

With single payer we can cover everyone at the same cost we pay now -- which leaves 50 million Americans without coverage.

We can leave the hospitals and providers private. The sticky part will be having to negotiate price controls with providers.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

41. Is there any prospect of that in the US?

I think that free-at-point-of-use health care paid for from general taxation is self-evidently a good idea, and here in the UK virtually everyone agrees, but my impression is that in the US it's a complete political nonstarter for the forseeable future.

Is there anyone with a serious chance of being elected President who supports it? Because if not, setting a litmus test all the candidates are going to fail strikes me as foolish.

[many a good man]

43. They all support "universal" health care

But they're all too chicken to come out openly and support single-payer or socialized medicine.

Universal means incrementally reaching toward the goal of getting everyone covered, starting with the millions of children. No one will take on the insurance companies so "solutions" are stuck around subsidizing private insurers or raising taxes to expand Medicare.

[kath]

44. "Put the insurance companies out of business" -- these 6 words are the key to

everything. We MUST get the bloodsucking insurance companies out of the equation. SINGLE PAYER is the only way to go.

[blondeatlast]

45. Every morning, when I prick my finger for a BG reading and

push the buttons that give me insulin (read: my very LIFE), I think about how lucky I am--I'm not kidding.

The time has come. If a plan for single payer healthcare isn't offered to every American in the Democratic platform I will still vote Democratic but they won't get a good gilligan damn from me for the campaign.

[sandnsea]

46. Glad you're doing okay

We just went through this last July. If you have questions that we might be able to answer, diet ideas, med assistance, anything like that, feel free to PM. Take care of yourself. :hug:

[Tom Rinaldo]

47. Who can argue with you on this? Not I

I didn't realize that you already mangaged to get more than one thread up here already! I repeat, turn off the news for at least most of every day for a few weeks, we can't afford to let your blood hit full boil for a little while, we are counting on you for the very long hawl, it's going to be a long fight!

Welcome home Husb2Sparkly

[antigop]

48. If I may make a suggestion --- write a letter to the editor

I just got one published recently that talked about the benefits of single-payer and Medicare for All.

The support for a single-payer system is quite strong but people don't know there is already a bill in Congress (HR 676) Medicare for All.

Now here's the interesting part -- I got a phone call from a complete stranger. He tracked me down and called to tell me that he thought my LTTE was great and that HE DID NOT KNOW THERE WAS A BILL prior to reading my letter. He said he would contact his representatives and I told him to spread the word.

People do read LTTE's. Try to get one published. HR 676 is not getting publicity.

Support is there --- people want this. A lot just don't know that a bill exists.

[truedelphi]

49. I did not know about this bill

Have spent most of my free time in the last thirty days trying to get a friend who needs help get into hospice.

Finally accomplished it.

But will attempt to get publicity out about this bill

Thanks!

[antigop]

54. Here is a link -- pass the word

http://www.house.gov/conyers/news_hr676_2.htm

[Guaranteed]

50. Good to see ya, Husb.

Myself, more than anything what I'm interested in seeing is getting the system fixed so that it is efficient. Basically, that means cutting out the middleman and getting SINGLE PAYER healthcare going. The result of that should be the ability to get everyone covered. But what I really hate is the wastefulness and these assholes who are making, literally in some cases, a billion dollars per year as compensation for being the CEO of a company that makes a living denying people healthcare.

[EVDebs]

51. Besides corporate greed in the phama/insurance industries, globalization is behind demise

The Benefits Trap
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_29/b3892001_mz001.htm

makes it clear, companies are stripping workers in the US of pensions and healthcare benefits in order to 'compete' with their overseas counterpart subsidiaries

"" Perhaps most important, in the global economy, long-established U.S. companies are competing against younger rivals here and abroad that pay little or nothing toward their workers' retirement, giving the older companies a huge incentive to dump their plans. ""

This is all symptomatic of an overall 'race to the bottom' (as Alan Tonelson calls it) and another sign that the consolidation of wealth in the US with the upper 1 and 1/2 percent of the wealthy is ruining this once great nation.

[Doondoo]

52. kick

[Vinca]

53. Glad you're back and fighting.

It's a frightening state of affairs, to say the least. If I (an uninsured person) had been in your position I'd probably be dead because I wouldn't authorize treatment that would end up leaving my family living on the street in a box. Even you, laying on the gurney, having to go to a "licensed" facility for the procedure is total bullshit. What if you'd had the procedure there because it was an emergency situation? Would the insurance cover it or would you be on the hook for tens of thousands of dollars? One of the biggest misperceptions about health insurance is that if you have it, you're safe. You're not. We need universal, single payer care NOW. Not universal insurance, universal care.

[Nimrod2005]

55. K

[Lasher]

58. Welcome back, H2S!

And ranting about one of my favorite subjects too!

I wonder how many people know the net cost would be zero for single provider universal health care for everyone. I wonder how many know that Canada is paying lots less per capita for health care, and everyone there is covered.

Sparkly says you're supposed to ixnay on the antray for awhile but I'm not gonna tell on you. Just kidding, I think this is just the medicine you need.

Lasher