Kucinich Gets Tough on H-1b and L-1 Visas

[redqueen]

The expanded use of H-1b and L-1 visas has had a negative effect on the workplace of Information Technology workers in America. It has caused a reduction in wages. It has forced workers to accept deteriorating working conditions and allowed U.S. companies to concentrate work in technical and geographic areas that American workers consider undesirable. It has also reduced the number of IT jobs held by Americans. At its peak in 2000, there were 10.5 million people working in Information Technology in the United States. By 2001, there were fewer than 10 million -- despite continued global growth in Information Technology employment. Professor Norman Matloff of UC Davis estimates that in the spring of 2003 there were 500,000 unemployed and underemployed U.S. programmers, while there were 463,000 H-1b workers employed in the field.

A Kucinich administration will ensure that there are adequate funds for the enforcement of visa regulations -- including much-ignored regulations prohibiting the use of foreign nationals in critical infrastructure. A Kucinich administration will also appoint a special investigator to examine the extent and nature of H-1b and L-1 visa fraud and the reasons for heavy use of H-1b and L-1 visas at Enron, WorldCom, and Anderson. He will take seriously the allegations of perjury by corporate leaders who have testified before Congress, requesting expansion of this program in 1998 and 2000, as well as allegations of the use of the H-1b and L-1 programs in corrupt organizations.

There will be an industry fact-finding commission, including representatives of major U.S. investors, U.S. tech workers, and business leaders who have been competitive in the international marketplace without use of the H-1b/L-1 program. These representatives will make suggestions as to a new policy on the immigration of people with specialized knowledge or unique skills.

Dennis Kucinich has already set forth plans for major technical initiatives in the areas of renewable energy, pollution control, and promotions of Open Source software and media creating a wider diversity of means by which technologists are funded outside of the service of major corporations. It may not be possible to undo the damage that corporate shortsightedness has done to the U.S. technical community -- but it is possible to give a real voice to the vision that the U.S. technical community has for a better America.

For more campaign information: http://www.kucinich.us

For Congressman Kucinich's Schedule: http://www.kucinich.us/schedule.htm.

Contact: Susan Mainzer, 213-840-007, [e-mail]

[MuseRider]

1. He really gets it.

But "we" don't want to hear it.

[redqueen]

2. I know it - that's so very VERY irritating

But don't you just LOVE how he not only points out problems, but offers DETAILED solutions?

This man is my president. :loveya:

[tom2kpro]

22. He does get it!

Establishment people in both parties act like they cannot do anything about stuff like this.

What they really mean is that they are unwilling to insist that current law be enforced. Fine a few big corporations the maximum fine for each obvious, easy-to-prove violation of existing Immigration Laws, and the problem will take care of itself with millions of dollars in fines.

I am all for legal immigration, and even for H1B visas when used for the limited purposes that they were sold to us for-- to let US companies get people with highly specialized skills that cannot be found in people who are already here. Not to keep labor costs low. For example, you cannot design a router without some math or engineering geniuses to develop algorithms, and you may need to bring in a few of these folks from overseas, but you probably do not need H1Bs to maintain your enterpise network.

[Slice]

3. I don't get it.

So Kucinich wants people to come from Mexico and other countries in Latin America, but he doesn't want people coming from India and other countries? If that's his position then fine, I just find it a little bit weird.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

4. No, he doesn't want people coming in

to take jobs for which there are many unemployed qualified Americans.

Employers are throwing Americans out of work and bringing in foreign workers to whom a relatively low salary sounds like a king's ransom.

[Slice]

5. Some people say that

all immigrants take jobs away.

I don't think that you can really make that argument. If an immigrant is willing to work for less than an American, then why shouldn't they get the job? If the Americans continue to demand getting paid 80-100k for a computer programming job then I contend they are pricing themselves out of the labor market.

[redqueen]

8. You clearly do not understand the process involved in H1-B or L1 visas

look into it and then you'll get it.

edit: oh heck I'll just tell you -- these visas are only to be granted when the employer is unable to find help from citizens.

Also there is the issue of critical infrastructure.

Dennis is right.

[Slice]

9. You honestly think employers follow the H1b regulations?

They don't. But that's beside the point. I think Americans should be able to import labor from anywhere in the world, without restrictions. I don't believe in protectionism in the labor market.

[redqueen]

10. Americans fought and died for workers' rights

until those other countries recognize those rights they are OUT.

[Slice]

11. No they're not

I know that you are a big fan of socialism but you don't have the right to interfere like that.

[redqueen]

12. So you agree that we should live like people in India?

That's what will happen, our standard of living will fall to meet theirs.

You want the laborers living in substandard excuses for homes which smell of sewage?

I don't.

[Slice]

13. You would rather have xenophobia?

I see a lot of that. People work for small amounts of money in other countries, but would you rather they work for nothing? That's what would happen if Dennis got into office. People say, oh it's so bad that people have to work for 60 cents an hour. Well, are you volunteering to pay their wages if they lose their jobs? If you aren't then I suggest you not make that argument.

[redqueen]

14. Nice dodge, this has nothing to do with xenophobia

If you scroll up a few inches, you'll see where I said that if these countries recognized labor rights, I'd have no problem with it.

Since they don't, I do.

I thought I was pretty straightfoward. :shrug:

[Slice]

15. I think you need to understand

what a "right" is. Labor rights are a misnomer, because they are not rights. They are privileges.

[redqueen]

16. So if a child in India is chained to a carpet loom

to you, that's A-OK?

[Slice]

20. No, it's not a-ok,

but would you rather the people who are making ALMOST no money end up making NO money, and starve? I wouldn't want that.

[redqueen]

24. You've just voice Republican Talking Point 1 re: Labor

Would you like to re-think that?

(hint: see post #21)

[Slice]

25. that's against the rules

thanks very much. and no i wouldn't liek to re-think it.

[redqueen]

27. LOL, no it isn't. Re-read them.

:)

[Slice]

29. No

I choose not to. I don't want to get into a petty fight with you because you won't change your view and I won't change mine. I just know that I don't want to starve little kids in India...

[redqueen]

31. Newsflash: they're starving now

Another newsflash: it's because India has not recognized workers rights.

[Slice]

33. Again,

it's the "rights" vs. "privileges" thing.

What business do you have trying to influence laws and policy in India? You don't live in India.

[redqueen]

35. Does it matter where I live?

Why do you think I should not care about how workers are treated all over the world?

When CEO's are making 750 times what the workers make?

Workers generate the wealth that the fatcats suck up! I care about children no matter where they live.

[Slice]

37. CEOs' started the business

I really don't know what's up with all of the CEO bashing. If you ran these companies as collectives they would be nowhere near as profitable. Increased profability means increased tax revenues, and increased tax revenues means more of the services that I know we all love.

If a CEO starts a company, she has the right to find work anywhere as long as it is legal, and she has the right to pay her workers whatever she wants as long as it is above the minimum wage. Now you can argue the morality of that, but CEO talent is a lot harder to find than worker talent. The market sets the price of labor, and apparently CEOs are worth 750X more.

[no name no slogan]

43. Not all of them started businesses

In fact, most of them are professional "managers" who don't know the first thing about entrepreneurship. They did not start the companies they lead, they are merely there at the pleasure of the board of directors, who choose them to extract as much profit from the company as humanly possible.

If a CEO starts a company, she has the right to find work anywhere as long as it is legal, and she has the right to pay her workers whatever she wants as long as it is above the minimum wage. Now you can argue the morality of that, but CEO talent is a lot harder to find than worker talent. The market sets the price of labor, and apparently CEOs are worth 750X more.

The market may set the price for "talent", but who controls the market? The workers? Hardly.

The markets are controlled by the "market makers", who are largely executives or board members of the large corporations. These members of the executive class ALSO hold high positions in the government, which has a very large input on how the markets are regulated.

The consumer has some say over the markets, true, but even they are merciless at the hands of a government that goes out of its way to accomodate the corporations.

[Slice]

51. That's a good thing

we shouldn't have a lot of government intervention in this area.

Just because you are an American, and you exist, does not give you or anyone else a right to a chunk of corporate profits.

[redqueen]

64. I guess you missed Frontline last night

Tax revenues?

They're only paying 50% of what they owe. We get stuck with the rest.

Until we take the control of washington away from corporations we will contine to be screwed.

You may like it, but I do not.

[CivilRightsNow]

47. Globalization..

Wow..

I havent seen many people tout globalization around here.

Interesting stuff.

I'll keep maintaining that instead of undercutting the us worker..if you are so worried about people starving in india, perhaps we should take our trillion dollar defense budget and shave 10% off.. that could feed india easily. Not only could it do that, but it could enable india to develop their own infastructures instead of becoming a slave to the US.

[Paulie]

23. We did that, it ended with the Civil war

Wait till it's your ass on the line. NIMBY will be your screen name.

[Slice]

39. How nice.

[Paulie]

40. Isn't the correct response, HOW TRUTHFUL?

That's ok, you've had your fun. It's been a "Slice!"

[Slice]

41. Indeed

:hi: I intend to have a lot more fun.

[revcarol]

46. I hate to tell you this:

this is the DEMOCRATIC Underground, not some other site.

[CivilRightsNow]

45. Out of touch eh?

What about the tech support folks that used to make 25-35 K?

What about the programmers who make 40-60K.

You think those are unreasonable salaries?

Try supporting a family on 30k a year and then you get back to me, okay?

The layman has always thought us tech workers were making a bazillion dollars a year to sit on our ass and do nothing. But those days have been over for quite sometime. So let's put the blame squarely where it belongs. On corporations that use our public roads, our public systems.. our tax money .. our intellectual copyright laws.. but give us nothing back but a mighty "fuck you, we will hire someone from india for 5k"

Have you tried living on 5K a year? Just how am I supposed to be competitive with that?

[Mairead]

6. Perhaps you should look at the job categories involved?

Technology and basic-industry manufacturing capabilities are core competencies, vital to national wellbeing.

[Slice]

7. I guess you don't want immigrants to have those jobs?

What happened to us being a nation of immigrants?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

17. Let me guess what your political philosophy is...

and I bet it begins with neither a D nor an R.

[Slice]

19. Let me guess that

this is against the rules. Thanks.

[MuseRider]

18. All you have to do

is look into Kucinich. You will not find any anti immigrant attitudes there. He is being a bit protective but that is because we as a country cannot afford to help anyone else if we let ourselves go into the toilet. It is a little like you have to love yourself before anyone else can really love you. Anyway, that is my simplistic way of looking at this. DK is very pro immigrant but not to the extent that it kills our own people. Hope I did not miss the point.

[redqueen]

21. This misses the point

Saying that Kucinich's anti-corporate-labor-exploitation views are anti-immigrant is short sighted and completely wrong.

He is actually the one MOST SUPPORTIVE of immigrant workers.

Face it, these companies and countries want to sell to us. We are the biggest consumer market on the planet.

By forcing them to recognize labor rights in these countries, he is helping workers worldwide.

Once you cut through the propoganda and lies, it's really quite simple and elegant. :)

[Slice]

26. Calling my stuff

propaganda and lies?

[redqueen]

28. Yes

You say that Kucinich's policies are anti-immigrant.

That is propoganda and a lie. I just explained why.

[Slice]

30. lol

:hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi:

:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

well ok then.

[MuseRider]

32. Response to me?

I must not have been clear, one reason I hate to post sometimes because my writing style leaves lots to be desired. I agree with you, that is what I was trying to say.

[redqueen]

34. Sorry if that seemed short - lunch break's almost over

:)

I just wanted to make it very clear and plain that Kucinich's positions are actually very pro-immigrant.

Helping people to get jobs where they are underpaid and overworked is no help at all.

I hate cheap-labor talking points. :)

[MuseRider]

36. S'OK, I was trying to say

the same but apparently I did not. We agree.

[Slice]

38. talking points

talking points. talking points. talking points. talking points. talking points. talking points. talking points. talking points. talking points. talking points.

do you feel better now, redqueen? it's much easier to dismiss my arugments as talking points than it is to actually debate.

[no name no slogan]

42. Here's a "talking point"

I work in the tech industry, and I have some experience with this program first-hand. It is not only unfair to American workers, but to foreign workers, too.

Do you know anything about the H1B program? For one thing, it's not a permanent residency-track program. H1Bs are brought to the US by other corporations for short-term work, usually not more than five years.

At the end of their term, these workers are kicked out of the country and sent back to their home countries. They are not actually "immigrants", as one of the provisions of the H1B visa is that you CANNOT apply for permanent residency afterwards-- unlike other student or work visas issued by the government.

Also, H1Bs are paid FAR LESS than prevailing wages in the industry-- usually 75%, but often as low as 50%! Also, these workers have little if any rights-- if they are "fired" from their jobs for ANY reason, they have NO APPEALS, and must go home immediately. They are little more than indentured servants of big corporations who live and work in the US at the whim of their bosses. The difference is that at the end of their servitude, they don't get to stay here-- they're sent back to their country of origin, and have a VERY hard time coming back legally.

If we TRULY cared about bringing talented immigrants into this country, we wouldn't do it via the H1B program, which is unfair to ALL workers. We'd do it through the regular resident alien process, which would give them permanet residence status and the chance for citizenship.

[Slice]

44. No one forces them to come here

If someone chooses to come here under that program and doesn't likk it, then too bad. I have no pity for them. It's not like they were enslaved like african-americans were.

[CivilRightsNow]

48. I think you need to do some research and get back to us

It doesnt seem like you understand the concepts of H1B Visas, outsourcing, globalization, etc enough to really have this discussion.

IMHO, of course.

Have a fantastic day.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nederland]

49. Fellow Employees

Having worked in IT for over 14 years, I've got a large number of friends who are here on H-1B visas. I would hate to have them leave...

[no name no slogan]

52. It's not about the People, it's about the Program

I have no problem with them coming here, but I don't like the H1B program itself. It discriminates against the workers that come here, and against the workers already here, too.

IMHO the H1B program should be scrapped and replaced with another type of guest worker program that allows H1Bs the same rights as those given to other resident aliens with work permits. As it stands, the H1B program disempowers workers, and does not give them the chance for permanent residency if they want it.

[cryofan]

59. on the OTHER hand...

....all those unemployed AMERICAN CITIZEN IT workers would be able to get a job.

Ever hear of the Social Contract?

[Nederland]

62. So are you saying

...that Americans have more rights to a job than Canadians?

[cryofan]

63. Jobs performed in America? AB-SO-LUTE-LY

America is OWNED by Americans. Just like you own your car. I have no right to drive it. Unless I give you permission.
So therefore non-Americans have no right to American jobs. Unless we give our permission. And poll after poll after poll shows Americans want LESS and not more immigrants coming to America to work here.

[cryofan]

53. finally, FINALLY, Dennis takes my suggestion. If he had done so earlier.,.

....he would be in the race. But it is too late now.

Dennis's fatal flaw this campaign was his refusal to take advice.

He could still have a chance if he gets into another televised debate (can he still do that?) and he uses it as a vehicle to run HARD against immigration, both legal (h1b visas, etc) AND illegal.

[youngred]

54. So which campaign are you managing

Yep, that's Dennis fatal flaw, he won't take the advice of random, anonymous internet posters :eyes:

It isn't the media white-wash, has nothing to do with continued disrespect from all sides, nothing at all to do with that, its just that he won't take gosh-darned advice!

[cryofan]

57. 70-80% of ALL Americans are against such visas

That is what the Americans are advising their elected representatives to do, and in large those reps are are ignoring them.

[Desertrose]

56. always great to hear your glowing views of Dennis

and how amazing the whole campaign turned on your advice, cryofan.

what a bummer.....
:shrug:

DR

[cryofan]

58. no problemo!

:hi:

[w4rma]

55. I am in full and total agreement with Kucinich on this issue. (n/t)

[ThirdWheelLegend]

60. Dennis Kucinich leading once again..

That is why I have been supporting Kucinich since Feb 17th 2002.

TWL

[revcarol]

61. Remember the Y-2K scare?

How we had to get in all these others outside the country to reconfigure the computers that were in the old languages?

And how business after business said there were NO Americans to do the job, even thoughAmericans had designed and improved and whatevered all this from the get-go...

And workers(UNREPRESENTED BY UNIONS) said that this was a ploy to drive down tech wages and that we needed to have MAYBE 100 extra workers...

And how the Republican Congress kept expanding the program???

Well, the chickens have come home to roost.

THREE CHEERS TO DENNIS, WHO ALWAYS STANDS UP FOR LABOR!!

Hip hip hooray, :bounce: Hip hip hooray, :bounce: Hip hip hooray, :bounce:

He's an O8) in my book!!

[Mairead]

65. "He's an {angel} in my book"

In mine too, Carol!

Every time he says something, I'm reminded of how awful it's become in the last 30 years.