WTF is substance?

[Bread and Circus]

Seriously?!?

People trot this out against Obama as if he were a porn star or a car salesman (no offense to either of those professions) who just one day decided to run for President with absolutely no credentials.

How can this guy, who is obviously brilliant, with educational and work experience that is just as good or better than any president in the last Century, be pasted with the meme that he lacks substance.

Issues? It's not that hard folk just check his website. Just check any of their websites. It's there for anyone who wants to seriously read it.

Intelligence? He's probably the most intelligent person fielded right now.

Presence? This is subjective, but this he has in abundance both on stage and off.

Message? His message is that of elevating us past petty bickering and striving for something more. It's uplifting. What's wrong with that!

Foreign Policy Experience? For any practice purpose, it's no different than Clinton or Edwards. They just don't have much hands on foreign experience when you compare them to those that really do. This is something that will have to be overcome for any of them.

So, maybe those things aren't substance in many of your eyes or maybe he doesn't make the cut on those grounds.

And if that is your opinion, please tell me what substance is, why Obama doesn't have it, and why Clinton and Edwards do.

I'm waiting...

[sam sarrha]

1. would that be like working for the unrepresented under classes protecting them from irresponsible

predatory corporatists most of their adult life....??

[Bishop Rook]

9. A bit like that, yes

In his days as a community organizer and as a state senator. And Obama certainly made a lot less money on it.

[sam sarrha]

22. .....that is quite a resume

:rofl: lets face it all he has is carisma, and we already have one like that

[cali]

24. Aaargh. You keep spelling "charisma" wrong.

I've noticed it in other threads. If you're that ignorant- it's hardly an uncommon word- simply use spellcheck. It's not hard to do.

And no, he has far more than charisma. That you prefer to indulge in a cheap fiction is entirely up to you, but that's all it is.

Carry on.

[sam sarrha]

26. sorry, i am autistic, never could spell and since i lost my hand i have to type with one finger...

but by now i know how much NT's enjoy being spelling Nazis and delight in humiliating the handicapped.. but,it's ok, you were somewhat polite about it... considering what is going on in the world and in our country does it really matter... if i miss spell check, which does not always work..??

[no name no slogan]

2. Substance

... is/was a "greatest hits" collection by the British post-punk band New Order, originally released in 1987.




Disc 1:

1. "Ceremony" – 4:23
2. "Everything's Gone Green" – 5:30
3. "Temptation 87" – 6:59
4. "Blue Monday" – 7:29
5. "Confusion 87" – 4:43
6. "Thieves Like Us" – 6:36
7. "The Perfect Kiss" – 8:02
8. "Sub-culture" – 4:48
9. "Shellshock" – 6:28
10. "State of the Nation" – 6:32
11. "Bizarre Love Triangle" – 6:44
12. "True Faith" – 5:55



Disc 2:

1. "In a Lonely Place" – 6:16
2. "Procession" – 4:27
3. "Cries and Whispers" – 3:25
4. "Hurt" – 6:58
5. "The Beach" – 7:19
6. "Confusion Instrumental" – 7:38
7. "Lonesome Tonight" – 5:11
8. "Murder" – 3:55
9. "Thieves Like Us Instrumental" – 6:57
10. "Kiss of Death" – 7:02
11. "Shame of the Nation" – 7:54
12. "1963" – 5:35

[Kucinich4America]

3. And a great compilation it was

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w77T0AncLKo

[jlake]

4. If you support Obama, clearly substance does not matter to you, so why ask what it is?

[Bread and Circus]

11. I'm trying to be nice here because you are baiting me...

but I think you understand the question is rhetorical.

Nonetheless. If Obama doesn't have it, please tell me what it is.

All I can find is this:

sub·stance (sbstns)
n.
1.
a. That which has mass and occupies space; matter.
b. A material of a particular kind or constitution.
2.
a. Essential nature; essence.
b. Gist; heart.
3. That which is solid and practical in character, quality, or importance: a plan without substance.
4. Density; body: Air has little substance.
5. Material possessions; goods; wealth: a person of substance.

which obviously does not apply as I'm sure the Clinton camp means substance in a slightly different, metaphorical way.

However, I would really like that defined for me.

It's a charge that can't defended against because to now it seems to have no meaning.

I'd appreciate an earnest reply.

[jlake]

12. I cannot speak for others, but the reason I feel he has no substance is that every

one of his issue boilerplates is very generic. Something you can find on every candidates website....others with much more detail and plans for getting things done.
Other candidates offer EVERYTHING he does + much more with DETAILS.
"Hope" and "Change" are meaningless. I honestly cannot figure out what he wants me to be hopeful for and what change to expect.
Change is good, but the fact is that ANY dem will work for the same changes Obama is trying to claim as his own, and I think Hillary will be better prepared to do so (as would Edwards, and those who have abandoned their bids).

....or to be more plain, on the issues he has done nothing to distinguish himself from any other candidate (and has less experience and accomplishments).
So his only asset is the hype/pep rally/bandwaggon/cult of personality aura that surrounds him.

[magatte]

15. Ok, I bite, what is IN DETAIL the substance that Hilary brings?

Please show me examples of what she brings to the table. And I mean examples not generalities.

[Bishop Rook]

16. Thank you

Though I've asked that question a couple times so far and haven't gotten any takers. I'm afraid even put together, our post count doesn't reach 1000+.

[jlake]

17. Well, since the Obama supporters told me to read his website....and I did.

Compare the "issues" sections of Obama's website with Hillary's.
She seems to have about 25 times as much written....those are the details
Obama's is just broad ideas, with Hillary you can look into each one, with links for specific programs/policy issues.
www.hillaryclinton.com

[Bread and Circus]

19. That's just absolutely not true.

Have you taken a look recently?

On the main issues page alone, Obama takes on 19 topics, Clinton only 12.

Click on the immigration sectiona alone and you will that Obama's and Clintons level of detail are comparable. Then, Obama's site has additional detail in pdf format.

It's just a falsehood to act like there's not detail there.

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

click any topic, read it and then click the attached pdf's for more detail.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt in that maybe you are missing the pdf's.

:)

[jlake]

20. Going to check it out right now...

[Bread and Circus]

21. Sweet, can you hook me up with Clinton's detailed education plans...

I can't find them on her site in order to compare to Obama's http://www.barackobama.com/issues/pdf/PreK-12EducationFactSheet.pdf

[Bread and Circus]

18. As a physician, I just read his health plan vs clinton's plan...

and I can tell you they are effectively the same. Obama's pdf is probably slightly more detailed.

Also, throughout his website the issues are well detailed.

You may not know this but the policy promises that the candidates offer are actually written by the exact same advisers. I learned this a while back when I supported Wes Clark. That's why they all sound about the same with trivial differences.

I use the healthcare one as I probably know more about healthcare policy than Obama or Clinton.

Unfortunately, both of their plans don't get to the root of the problem and aren't likely to be passed without a huge mandate in the Congress in both the house and senate.

p.s. Hillary Clinton flunked her Bar exam in D.C. in case you didn't know but she passed it in Arkansas and worked there for a well known corporate stablishment law firm, which represents Tyson foods and Walmart among other corporations. She's also done quite a bit of pro bono work and child initiatives throughout her career. Barack himself has an illustrious law career and his profesional legal work has a much more community focus to it as "he represented community organizers, discrimination claims, and voting rights cases.<30> He was a lecturer of constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School from 1993 until his election to the U.S. Senate in 2004." (in quote material from wikipedia).

I know that nothing I say will influence you but there's my response.

[sam sarrha]

23. he is 'carismatic'..... but we already have one of those

[theredpen]

5. People says that substance is something Clinton has that Obama doesn't have

So... I'm guessing it's boobs or something.
:sarcasm:
(Good post :hi:)

[Didereaux]

6. Kiddy Army says Obama has charisma...what the fuck exactly is charisma?

[Bread and Circus]

8. I think that's actually fairly well defined and this....

is how it's used in reference to Obama:

cha·ris·ma (k-rzm)
n. pl. cha·ris·ma·ta (-m-t)

Personal magnetism or charm

[BeyondGeography]

7. Substance abuse is more like it

[1corona4u]

10. You mean, like cocaine or pot?

I guess don't understand your comment?

[LittleBlue]

13. A slogan that very gullible people use

As if proclaiming some policy guarantees the politician will get it implemented.

[lumberjack_jeff]

14. What if they called it "gravitas"?

Undefined subjectivity makes me nuts too.

[JVS]

25. The ability to maintain a straight face when discussing hemorrhoids.