Gen. Wesley Clark voted for Reagan

[skipos]

Poll question: Gen. Wesley Clark voted for Reagan

There was much debate about the fact that General Wesley Clark voted for Reagan. I vaguely remember Lieberman calling Clark something to the effect of a "fake Democrat." I am curious to see if there is any pattern here. Pick one...

[David Zephyr]

1. Clark is on videotape complimenting Reagan. And I like Clark a lot.

K&R.

[BootinUp]

2. Clark never attempted to raise the image of Reagan or the repukes

he simply defended his choice then as a choice for more funds for the military. If I am incorrect I am sure someone will point it out.

[TwilightZone]

5. I recall that being his motivation, as well.

[FrenchieCat]

7. Oh...but I've got some quotes of Clark on Reagan that are very

complimentary...because like Obama, Clark is intellectually honest.

Wanna see the quotes?

[BootinUp]

10. Frenchie

Obama is trying to speak for our party at the current time and set a new direction. The quotes you are bragging about were undoubtedly before Clark announced he was a Democrat and before he ran for the nomination. But if I am wrong I would like to see them.

[FrenchieCat]

21. Clark.....talking, as Obama did, of Reagan's effectiveness, period.

So, when Ronald Reagan called the Soviet Union an "Evil Empire," or stood before crowds in Berlin and proclaimed "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall," he was reaching a receptive audience on the other side of the wall. The neoconservatives persist in seeing a vast difference between Reagan's policy of confronting the Soviets and previous American administrations' tack of containing it. In fact, it was precisely those decades of containment and cultural engagement that made Reagan's challenge effective.
Broken Engagement, May 2004
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0405.clark.html

I've got a bunch of stuff in reference to Clark and Reagan. To this day, I don't think that Clark would ever say that he disliked Reagan or anything like that, although I'm sure that he didn't care or agree with Reagan's domestic policies (just like Obama)


But be clear, Clark understands exactly what Obama is saying in reference to Reagan. Of that I have not doubt. Clark is no someone who would even think it wise for Democrats to act as though Reagan was nothing but a leper. I think he would most probably agree that Dems would be setting themselves up attempting to equate Reagan as the Devil incarnated.

[BootinUp]

27. I think you should re-read that article frankly

snip:

These neoconservatives looked at the nest of problems caused by Middle East tyranny and argued that a morally unequivocal stance and tough military action could topple those regimes and transform the region as surely as they believed that Reagan's aggressive rhetoric and military posture brought down the Soviet Union.
----------------------


This is a blistering assault on neo-conservatives, the very people who advised Reagan and Bush. The only nice thing he has to say about Reagan is with regards to a strong role US role abroad. He tells us that the only reason Reagans bluster worked against the USSR is because of smart containment policy beforehand. He is not crediting these people as geniuses. As to being proud of serving under Reagan he speaks as just about any military officer would, I am not impressed with your analogy.


Don't be surprised if Clark has something to say on this issue in the near future that might shock you.


As for public criticism of Reagan, I am not asking Obama to launch a tirade at Reagan. Just stop belittling the Democratic party and our last two term President just to win a primary on a weak mandate.

[FrenchieCat]

31. Why....you think Clark is going to say......Reagan was an evil man

and I despise not only everything that Reagan ever stood for, but I despise the Reagan Democrats and also Obama for even speaking Reagan's name and using the fact that Reagan won landslides to suggest anything that we Democrats can take note from...and in fact, I said the word Reagan. Ooh...let me run out of the room?

That wouldn't be the man that I supported than.

[BootinUp]

34. Of course not

but there are better ways to build a coalition with independents than how Obama is doing it. Perhaps he will have some comments on that.

[robbedvoter]

13. If they are from his campaign time - 2004- then I was an idiot. But I believe they are old quotes

Long before he even voted for Clinton.

What troubles me about Obama is that this is his vision - about what he wants to do:

"The conservative revolution Reagan helped usher in gained traction because Reagan's central insight--that the liberal welfare state had grown complacent and overly bureaucratic, with Democratic policy makers more obsessed with slicing the economic pie than with growing he pie--contained a good deal of truth."

[krkaufman]

29. Well, we've done a helluva job tearing down the welfare of the citizenry.

Good for us.

sigh...

[robbedvoter]

39. If you intended to answer me - I am clueless as to your what you meant - sorry.

[BootinUp]

20. intellectual honesty

You do realize this Reagan talk is a political strategy unveiled for optimum effect in SC and NV right?

Actually it was first unveiled back in July in an article by Ben Smith politico.com, there has been a lot of thought put into how to squeeze enough independents into our primaries to minimize the core of the party.

[robbedvoter]

40. And written in the book long before that

"The conservative revolution Reagan helped usher in gained traction because Reagan's central insight--that the liberal welfare state had grown complacent and overly bureaucratic, with Democratic policy makers more obsessed with slicing the economic pie than with growing he pie--contained a good deal of truth."

[robbedvoter]

9. Same recollection. Had Clark praised Raygun, he'd have lost me in a NY minute

You guys don't get it - Obama thinks raygun was right, liberals were wrong. NOW!

"The conservative revolution Reagan helped usher in gained traction because Reagan's central insight--that the liberal welfare state had grown complacent and overly bureaucratic, with Democratic policy makers more obsessed with slicing the economic pie than with growing he pie--contained a good deal of truth."

Clark had voted for Clinton - twice - and for Gore - by the time he became a candidate.

[Texas_Kat]

17. Nope, you are exactly correct

He didn't defend Reagan's social or economic policies either. Neither did he see Reagan as transformational.

Reagan fostered a gestalt of greed, corruption and self-serving, self interest and Reagan did it by pandering to the worst in America. The Savings and Loan scandals, contra gate, BCCI, refusal to address AIDs, the beginning of the healthcare gold rush (which Clinton wound up trying to fix later). There was no end to it.

[FrenchieCat]

25. Obama is not defending Reagans social or economic policies either.....

But I wouldn't be so sure in reference to Clark not giving Reagan credit for the exact same reason that Obama has.

I find that making specific convenient separation for Clark's statement as to what he defended and didn't defend about Reagan....

while throwing a wide net and implying that somehow Obama is in agreement with this greed, corruption, etc that Reagan committed...to personally disappoint me.

Folks that I believe were rational and fair.....really never were, I guess.

I don't care if this is a political campaign......This is a ridiculous pile-on, for the sake of being able to do it.

I know that Clark respected Reagan, regardless of what he thought of his policies.....and Clark most likely sees Obama's point better than most.

[robbedvoter]

41. Reagan offered Americans a sense of common purpose that liberals seemed no longer able to muster."

more from the book
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4087189&mesg_id=4087491

[Texas_Kat]

55. I know what Obama is saying and I personally think he's 100% wrong.

Reagan wasn't 'transformational' -- he was merely a figurehead for all those people he hired that were supposed to give him advice. He didn't 'transform' anything that he didn't destroy first. Much of what Bill Clinton spent years cleaning up was the due to the Reagan 'mystique".

I can do without 'transformation'..... it would be sufficient if we could get just a little cooperation out of the Republicans. They don't 'do' bipartisanship unless you are operating from a position of strength. The only 'common ground' we have with the Republican infrastructure is the ground they want to bury us under.

[TwilightZone]

3. Not really on topic, but Lieberman's accusation sounds pretty silly now, doesn't it?

Clark campaigned for dozens of Democrats in '06 and will do so again in '08.

Lieberman is a former liberal who is now supporting McCain for the presidency.

[krkaufman]

30. It sounded damn silly back then, too. n/t

[Clarkansas]

4. It should be obvious I supported Clark

and I certainly think the Clark/Reagan stink and the Obama/Reagan stick are total non issues.
What was the quote from Lieberman?

[Auntie Bush]

8. I voted for Rag-gun too. What ya gonna do about it?

Guess what? So did a huge majority of people including Dems. Ever hear of Reagan Democrats? Sometimes we get "too late schmart." I thought it was good at the time and Carter wasn't so hot with the military or public...so people voted for Reagan. So what!

Yes, It's ANOTHER non-issue! Some people make me sick.

[robbedvoter]

15. But TODAY - do you think raygun was a good guy? Do you stand by that choice

TODAY? Because Obama does praise raygun TODAY:
p156 of his book:
"The conservative revolution Reagan helped usher in gained traction because Reagan's central insight--that the liberal welfare state had grown complacent and overly bureaucratic, with Democratic policy makers more obsessed with slicing the economic pie than with growing he pie--contained a good deal of truth."

It's what he wants to bring to us - if elected. It's extremely relevant - more relevant than anything else.

[Auntie Bush]

24. I intensely dislike Raygun today!

Actually I turned against him at during his second term. Couldn't stand the man. Thought he was a liar...just like bush. I guess it's a rethug thing.

But I hate to see Clark criticized for voting for Ray-gun...as if he wasn't a Democratic now...just like I am. We've always thought alike and still do. How about you?

[robbedvoter]

43. He isn't. he is used to justify Obama's PRESENT admiration for Reagan

It's that what i have an issue with - a vision polluted by Raygun worship - scares me.

[ZinZen]

47. You are either lying or overly hyped up

about your preferred candidate. This is a non issue except amongst political junkies.

[robbedvoter]

11. Then you supported Clark for all the wrong reasons.

[FrenchieCat]

26. Wow!

:wow:

[Jai4WKC08]

36. That just doesn't make sense

Maybe you misread what Auntie Bush said? Because I can't see anything in it about why she supported Clark and what Reagan has to do with it.

[robbedvoter]

48. I thought I was answering Clarkansas, not Auntie Bush - in fact I did, if you

follow the link

[Jai4WKC08]

58. My humble apologies

I'm getting old. :(

;)

[ZinZen]

46. Agree

non issues that most American voters will not care one blip about. Most folks are dealing with lack of health care and loss of jobs. This is a non issue for them.

[FrenchieCat]

6. Funny you should ask!

I supported both men, and I don't have a problem with either one bringing up Reagan.

In part, I supported Clark for similar reasons that I suport Obama now.

Both spoke out and warned against going into Iraq

Both had their words twisted to make it appear that they were indicisive on IRAQ, which is and was nothing but a bunch of shit.

Both are being called either "Republican or Republican-like" when both are as progressive or even more so than those running.

Both have been accused of not having enough experience to run.

Both are honest enough to realize that Reagan is the GOP Sacred Cow...and to speak of him is not a crime..

Both ran on a platform that they can best attract Indies and Repugs to our side.

Both are very analytical thinkers who try hard to stay away from "dirty" politics.

I think that both would make superior Presidents over all of who are running.

I'm just consistent...cause I didn't care for Hillary as President then, was hoping Clark would jump in and run AGAINST Clinton, realize that Obama is as much of a renaissance man as Clark is....

Wish that if Hillary Likes Clark so much, she would have helped him during his bid.
She didn't raise a doggone finger.....not even once. Bill did minimum.....throwing him a crumb here and there. But with friends like the Clintons, well, you know how that goes. A few Clark supporters think that Hillary is going to pick Clark as Veep or something. I ain't holding my breath.

[skipos]

62. I am glad you posted

One of the 1st times I posted on DU, I declared that I was supporting Clark. I was getting hammered by people accusing Clark (and me) of being a Republican, yadda yadda yadda. You came in an thumped 'em good.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

12. Reagan represented a military approach and a racist /classist social approach

I do not begrudge military people like Webb and Clark their support of Reagan in the same way I am riled by talk of his unifying, optimistic message domestically.

One can argue the military policy questions. I didn't support the Reagan approach, but I didn't support the nuclear freeze movement either... there was at least a legitimate basis for debate.

The domestic/social policy and message were, however, indefensible. No legitimate arguments to be found. Straight up hate in the service of kleptocracy. Nothing but a backlash against the civil rights movement.

[FrenchieCat]

16. Clark supported Reagan because he was in the military....

and Clark believed that Reagan would "restore" our reputation in the world.

OBama understands why Reagan won the Presidency, because Reagan claimed that he would restore America's reputation in the world and a majority of people (like Clark) believed him.

Ironic, hey?

Both Clark and Obama know exactly what is going on here. Folks here at DU...not so much.

[robbedvoter]

18. "A lot of liberal rhetoric did seem to value rights and entitlements over duties and responsibilitie

He agrees with Raygun BS!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4087189&mesg_id=4087491

[Proud2BAmurkin]

14. Quarter century ago. Obama supported Reagan two days ago.

[robbedvoter]

19. Actually, longer, and thoughtlfully so, as he gave him many mentions in his book

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4087189&mesg_id=4087491

[FrenchieCat]

23. Clark has references to Reagan all over his books too.....

I mean, please. Is this a game? :shrug:

You think seriously think that Clark, as thoughtful and grown up of an individual that he is, would not acknowledge exactly what Obama observed about Reagan effectiveness electorally?

Is this some kind of alternate universe? Hillary good, everyone else not?

[robbedvoter]

50. As his vision for the future? I am sure that's a "no" here. Obama wants to bring people

what reagan did - order, patriotism, grow the pie rather than slice it...

"The conservative revolution Reagan helped usher in gained traction because Reagan's central insight--that the liberal welfare state had grown complacent and overly bureaucratic, with Democratic policy makers more obsessed with slicing the economic pie than with growing he pie--contained a good deal of truth."

"That Reagan's message found such a receptive audience spoke not only to his skills as a communicator; it also spoke to the failures of liberal government, during a period of economic stagnation, to give middle-class voters any sense that it was fighting for them. For the fact was government at every level had become to cavalier about spending taxpayer money. Too often bureaucracies were oblivious to the cost of their mandates. A lot of liberal rhetoric did seem to value rights and entitlements over duties and responsibilities. Reagan may have exagerated the sins of the welfare state, and certainly liberals were right to complain that his domestic policies tilted heavily toward elites, with corporate raiders making tidy profits throughout the eighties while unions were busted and the income for the average working stiff flatlined.

Nevertheless, by promising to side with those who worked hard, obeyed the law, cared for their families, loved their country, Reagan offered Americans a sense of common purpose that liberals seemed no longer able to muster."

[AzDar]

22. He also supports HRC. We all have our momentary lapses of reason, don't we?

[krkaufman]

28. I refrained from voting since the choices were too limited.

"I supported Clark in 04, and Obama's comments give me *some* concern."

Clark was talking progressive policies in his 04 campaign, closer to Edwards than Obama or Clinton, and Obama's comments can give the impression that he doesn't view Reagan's policies as the root or our problems.

[robbedvoter]

51. Bingo! Reagan's policies ARE the root of our problems - they led to Bush!

That's what made this so relevant to what he intends to do as POTUS.

[Barack_America]

32. Why isn't "tar and feather him" an option?

;)

[FrenchieCat]

33. Thank God this is over in not too long.....

edited cause I'll just think what I think.

Twisting intent will come back to haunt those doing it now.

[BootinUp]

35. you were more convincing when you talked about

how the Clinton campaign was spreading race baiting code words. No it was about the same actually.

[Barack_America]

38. Did I twist something?

Say something wrong?

I'm confused.

[FrenchieCat]

44. No, not you......

I'm just frustrated by a lot of dumbass shit going round here. You've been excellent! :pals:

[Barack_America]

53. No problem....(crazy theory inside)

And...thanks!

Our guy's doing great! And, you may have noticed that Hillary's base pretty closely resembles the so-called Reagan Democrat, so it's entirely possible that he wants her supporters to stir this shit up.

Here's a link to my crazy theory on the situation:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4095508&mesg_id=4095704

[Jai4WKC08]

60. Reagan Democrats?

That's funny, in a thread where Obama talks about what a great guy Reagan was.

But that's ok. Keep on demonizing us. I expect no different from SOME people. Others I thought better of.

[BootinUp]

42. I note your edit Frenchie

removing the broad brush Clarkie-Clinton smear, I think I'll let my post stand as it is though.

[Occam Bandage]

37. '04 Clarkie, and I think this is ridiculous.

[bigwillq]

45. Didn't vote for Clark, Obama's remarks upset me (nt)

[Jai4WKC08]

49. I'm more concerned by what Obama said about not being a CEO

And about not wanting to manage the bureaucracy. For the first time, I'm beginning to believe the man is absolutely clueless about what a President does.

Next to that, complimenting Reagan is nothing. Heck, I never voted for him, even tho I was in the military -- but being a minority (woman) in the military is to see things with a different perspective -- and I could say some good things about him. And certainly from a political perspective, he was immensely successful in turning the nation toward his vision, as warped as it was.

It strikes me that maybe Obama sees himself as the kind of leader Reagan was. Someone who sets the climate and expects others to do the work. Reagan had little choice -- he was too old, and by his second term probably too senile -- to be a hands-on president. Bush is too lazy and uncaring. I don't get Obama's excuse, except maybe that not having been in Washington for long, he just doesn't know what will be necessary. I dunno. If he gets elected, maybe he'll catch on. He's a smart guy.

Butcha know, Jimmy Carter was a smart guy too. And he never figured out what was expected of him either.

[Cameron27]

54. I'm concerned that Barack not only

doesn't want to manage the bureaucracy, but he also had his spokesman pull out the standard DLC line about why "certain issues" cause Democrats to lose elections, which he called the "Democrat's disease," and it wasn't only his praising Reagan that's chilling, it's the fact that he used the RWers tripe about the excesses of the 60's and 70's to do it.

[BootinUp]

57. I forgot about the Disease line.

There are too many RW attacks flying out of that camp for me to keep track of.

[ecstatic]

52. I was suspicious of Clark and I think Obama's mention of Reagan was a strategic mistake

similar to declaring, "I don't have a bomb" in the airport, or like Will Smith's misunderstood statement on Hitler. It's never a good idea to bring up controversial, complex topics in this soundbite challenged nation.

[high density]

56. I supported Clark and don't really give a crap what Obama says

A lot of the stuff coming out of his mouth makes me roll my eyes anyway.

[calteacherguy]

59. Not only do they not upset me alot, they don't upset me at all.

There is nothing in what he said to be upset about, period.

[Superargo]

61. 04 Clark

supporter here as well. I think Obama's comments were an intelligent, realistic observation about the Reagan Democrat phenomenon.

[ArkySue]

63. Easy explanation

Gen. Clark was in the military.
Raygunz was very pro-military.
End of story.