Obama cites his religious traditions as basis for opposition to gay marriage...

[IndianaJones]

Does he feel this is a deeply moral issue like abortion? Will prayer lead us to the right decisions?

[elehhhhna]

1. Islam, right? LOL relax, people. Geez.

[IndianaJones]

2. Obama is a Christian. nt.

[CyberPieHole]

29. A "PROUD CHRISTIAN"...or so he keeps telling us.

:eyes:

[LittleClarkie]

58. And Hillary is ashamed?

Does she hide her Christianity?

[CyberPieHole]

67. Does Clinton "hide her Christianity"? Like Obama hides his middle name of Hussein?

Actually, there is something called "humility". Pride is one of the seven deadly sins. Obama said he is a "PROUD Christian"...as opposed to a "Shamed Jew"? Or "Shamed Hindu"? Why should someone be "Proud" to be a Christian? Is it better than other religions? Are other religions the wrong ones? Are atheists lesser people than "Proud" Christians?

[LittleClarkie]

68. I think you're reading alot into the word "proud"

What do you think of this Mother Jones article?

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/09/hillarys-prayer.html

In particular, this passage:

"Through all of her years in Washington, Clinton has been an active participant in conservative Bible study and prayer circles that are part of a secretive Capitol Hill group known as the Fellowship. Her collaborations with right-wingers such as Senator Sam Brownback (R-Kan.) and former Senator Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) grow in part from that connection. "A lot of evangelicals would see that as just cynical exploitation," says the Reverend Rob Schenck, a former leader of the militant anti-abortion group Operation Rescue who now ministers to decision makers in Washington. "I don't....there is a real good that is infected in people when they are around Jesus talk, and open Bibles, and prayer."

[CyberPieHole]

71. You know, I don't really care about a candidate's religion...Obama's the one who said he's "Proud"..

and he's the one who has been pandering to the religious ex~gay bigot Donnie McClurkin. Obama has brought all of it to the forefront. If he practices his religious beliefs privately, where they belong, I couldn't give a hoot...but trying to appear as pious and holier~than~thou is just too frickin similar to someone we all hate who now sits in the White House.

[LittleClarkie]

72. How is Hillary practicing her beliefs privately?

Another paragraph from that article:

"Such references to spiritual warfare—prayer as battle against Satan, evil, and sin—might seem like heavy evangelical rhetoric for the senator from New York, but they went over well with the Sojourners audience, as did her call to "inject faith into policy. It was language that recalled Clinton's Jesus moment a year earlier, when she'd summoned the Bible to decry a Republican anti-immigrant initiative that she said would "criminalize the good Samaritan...and even Jesus himself." Liberal Christians crowed ("Hillary Clinton Shows the Way Democrats Can Use the Bible," declared a blogger at TPMCafe) while conservative pundits cried foul, accusing Clinton of scoring points with a faith not really her own."

I'm just saying that we should hold both up to the same standard. I don't understand having a fit about Obama's public faith talk if you're going to ignore Hillary's.

They're really not all that far away from each other. You smack one, the other's going to say "ow".

[CyberPieHole]

74. You didn't hear her say "I'm a PROUD Christian" last night. Did you? Obama said that...

I don't really know what church she belongs to and I really don't care...as long as they don't try to rub my nose in scripture I can let it pass. Obama feels a need, a compulsion to let us know how religious and pious he is...it doesn't have the ring of truth to it either...just so much showmanship ala W Bush.

[LittleClarkie]

3. Did you have a problem with Kerry's stance?

Or the stance of everyone in 2004 beside Kucinich?

[William769]

4. And I'll cite my religious traditions against Obama!

[Ediacara]

5. So how is this anything markedly different from GOP-lite?

His personal religious convictions are getting in the way of having a secular society.

[BOSSHOG]

6. As long as gays can't marry I don't think christians should be able to divorce

If he (or any other candidate) interjects religion into such issues they have lost me.

[GoldieAZ49]

81. LOL!!!

Thats Great!
Gays should get in on all the joys of marriage and divorce, joint tax returns, alimony, child support, lawyers fees...etc.
Why just have the sex and none of the responsibility!

[LittleClarkie]

7. And is this a fair assessment of Hillary's stance?

"Hillary Clinton and Gay Marriage: Some gay and lesbian voters don't feel like Hillary Clinton has done enough to support gay and lesbian rights, while others believe she is the best candidate for gay and lesbian issues. Clinton opposes gay marriage but supports civil unions between members of the same sex. During her husband's administration, she supported the Defense of Marriage Act, a law preventing the federal recognition of same-sex marriage.

"Marriage has got historic, religious and moral content that goes back to the beginning of time, and I think a marriage is as a marriage always has been, between a man and a woman." - Hillary Clinton, opposing same-sex marriages, quoted in The New York Daily News.

http://lesbianlife.about.com/od/lesbianactivism/p/HillaryClinton.htm

Do you have a problem with your own candidate, too?

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

8. Hillary has apologized for saying marriage is between a man and a woman

I don't have a link, but as a gay person who keeps up with gay political news, I do remember hearing that Hillary apologized for stating her opposition to gay marriage that way. The way Republicans do. Barack still doesn't mind sounding like his idol, Reagan.

[Occam Bandage]

13. What has Clinton said in favor of gay marriage?

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

22. None of the front-runners support gay marriage, we're discussing the rhetoric used

Hillary apologized for using Republican rhetoric in stating her opposition to gay marriage. Barack said: "I'm a Christian. And so, although I try not to have my religious beliefs dominate or determine my political views on this issue, I do believe that tradition, and my religious beliefs say that marriage is something sanctified between a man and a woman." And hasn't apologized for using right-wing rhetoric, and after declaring what a "proud Christian" he is in the debate last night, I certainly not holding my breath that he'll apologize anytime soon.

If you're going to argue that rhetoric doesn't matter as long as the ultimate position is the same, that's not true, it does matter. It's offensive to pit gays against Jesus and the bible. Who's going to win the public debate in that match-up?

[Occam Bandage]

23. I didn't see her apology. Link?

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

28. Um yeah, that's already been covered.

Did I not say I don't have a link? Hillary is only my 2nd preferred candidate, I bought up her apology so that people here who are more into her might remember it and know how to link it.

Do you know who Michelangelo Signorile is? He's a famous gay activist. I listen to his radio show every afternoon, I'm listening to it right now. There's pretty much no aspect of gay politics that isn't discussed on his show. This is where I most likely where heard about Hillary apologizing for saying marriage is between a man and a woman. You don't have to take my word for it, but it is true. Maybe a bigger Hillary fan can help you with the link.

[Occam Bandage]

34. Well, I'll wait for that link then.

[GoldieAZ49]

83. Hillary on Gay Marriage

This is all I could find

http://terminatoronline.blogspot.com/2007/09/hillary-on-ellendances-around-gay.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3huRVrckY8

Hillary on Ellen...Dances Around Gay Marriage Question

Now, I could rightfully rant about Hillary's idea of what amounts to a 'separate but equal' system of civil unions for gay couples, but the comment that stands out the most to me is that she believes this is an issue that should be left for the states to decide. Not only did she dodge the root of Ellen's question, but she contradicted some of her well known political ideals...again.

Remember her healthcare solution from 1994? The core of her proposal, and current healthcare proposals as well, is that we should federalize the entire healthcare system. Whether you agree with that or not, it's a prime example of how Hillary constantly sends homosexuals to the back of the bus...so to speak. Apparently, it's perfectly acceptable to provide healthcare for all Americans, but it's not acceptable to do the equivalent regarding gay marriage.

[LittleClarkie]

26. And Hillary talks about the moral and religious implications of marriage

I fail to see much of a difference. Does the why matter as much as the what?

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

30. Past tense, she *talked*, I told you she apologized for that rhetoric

And I also explained why the rhetoric matters.

[Bluerthanblue]

42. If she did, you should have NO trouble linking to it- something

like this, especially from Hillary (who refuses to apologize for her IWR vote) would NOT be difficult to find.

If you can't back up your claim, you shouldn't make it.

[Critters2]

55. Her church opposes both gay marriage and gay ordination.

Has she denounced these positions?

[LittleClarkie]

56. And if she's recanted how she opposed gay marriage and took back her words

then has she given new ones in their place for her continued opposition? That's what I'd like to know.

[LittleClarkie]

57. Btw, I've looked at your replies in this thread. Where did you explain why rhetoric matters?

I'm not seeing it.

[Critters2]

45. He's mistaken. His tradition voted for marriage equality

two and a half years ago.

Try to catch up, Barry!

[GoldieAZ49]

82. It is an ELECTION year

She will apologize for anything she said or didn't say to get votes.

[LSparkle]

9. Except U.C.C. (Obama's church) is very liberal and may support

gay marriage. I know they ordain gay ministers ...

[IndianaJones]

10. he breaks with them on this issue. nt.

[ellacott]

11. What does John Edwards believe?

[hayu_lol]

12. Obama is just a bit too much tied up in his morals and his christianity...

He would, it seems, be making policy based on HIS view of morality which appears to be deeply entrenched in what many of us see as fundie christianity.

He is way way off base doing this.

Last thing we need is power from the pulpit in the White House.

[ellacott]

21. What does John Edwards believe?

I seriously doubt he will be setting policy the way you all describe.

He probably speaks more about his faith because he is the only one that has to confront rumors about his faith. Some people have actually believed those emails.

He's not like the fundies that have dominated the right wing.

[Critters2]

46. Clinton and Edwards both belong to a church whose official stance is

that "homosexuality is incompatible with the Christian faith" and which prohibits gay marriage and ordination. Obama's church both marries and ordains gays.

[Bluerthanblue]

24. BULLSHIT- how about a link for that-?

put up or be quiet.

[Critters2]

47. What are you objecting to? What would you like cited in a link?

Is it that his church is gay friendly, or that he breaks with his church on this issue? I'm not clear.

[CyberPieHole]

35. Could be true, but Obama's church also praises Louis Farrakhan and he's an anti~semite...

How "Christian" of them.:eyes:

[Critters2]

49. His church, or his pastor?

I belong to his denomination, and have never heard anyone praise Louis Farrakhan. The last pastor I know of who did so publicly--Ben Chavis--lost his ministerial credentials.

[Critters2]

59. And perform gay weddings.

http://www.ucc.org/news/general-synod-calls-for-full-marriage-equality.htm

[bunnies]

14. What reasons for opposing gay marriage are acceptable in your opinion?

You seem to think religion is a bad reason... so whats a good reason? Pray tell.

And arent you the same poster that not so long ago said you're "tolerant" of the theory of evolution? Youre confusing the hell out of me with all these anti-religion posts.

Whats your stance exactly?

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

25. I'll pray-tell, it's offensive to pit gays against Jesus and the bible

Keep the bible out of it.

[LittleClarkie]

27. What are the other candidate's reasons for opposing it?

Don't they all site religion? I know Kerry sited his Catholic faith

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

32. Sigh, see my other posts (that you've been responding to, so you have seen)

[LittleClarkie]

37. Okay, if she apologized, but hasn't reversed her opposition to gay marriage

Then what is her reason for opposition? Did she restate her opposition using different reasons?

Btw, I'm posting at work. I post, go away, come back, see replies, sometimes reading one but not having time to read the other. So if things seemed to get redundant between us, that's why.

Or, if I've misunderstood and she's changed her mind completely and now supports gay marriage, may I have a link to that position, because I can't find it on her website. Thanks.

[Occam Bandage]

15. "We are attempting to inject faith into policy."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4158307

[THUNDER HANDS]

16. I think he feels the same way about gay marriage that all the candidates do

personally, they have no problem with it, but they know the country isn't ready for it now. maybe in 20 years. or 10 years.

[maxanne]

31. right on!

Why take a strong stand for civil rights? Why be principled?

Easier to just pander to the lowest common denominator.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. Wasn't it just the opposite?

Clinton supporters and their fairy tales again.

[cali]

18. retreadjones. how many times can you post the same thing?

you need some new material, pal.

[robbedvoter]

19. Maybe prayer will heal you guys? halleluja?

:shrug:

[Capn Sunshine]

20. Hillary and Edwards have cited their religious beliefs in being against gay marriage as well

None of the mainstream candidates favor gay marriage. They all favor civil unions.

Hillary's people pretend otherwise, as do Edwards.

I respect other people's beliefs, but wonder why "gay marriage" is so difficult a concept for people to accept.

I say they have the right to be as miserable as anyone else.
(credit George McGovern)

[LittleClarkie]

40. Apparently Hillary has apologized for her rhetoric, but I'm still left wondering

what her reasons are then for opposing.

[Occam Bandage]

43. I haven't found any such apology.

[Critters2]

51. Her church is actively anti-gay.

Prohibits both gay ordination and gay marriage, both of which are practiced by Obama's church.

[LittleClarkie]

53. And so her opposition is different from Obama's how

Shouldn't she be held up to the same light? I guess I'm less interested in the rhetoric than the candidate's actual position and their simple reasons for it. So she apologized for how she opposed it, but she still opposes it.

[Critters2]

54. My point precisely. nt

[JackORoses]

33. can you provide a quote for this, or is it just your severely biased opinion?

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

36. The Quote

"I'm a Christian. And so, although I try not to have my religious beliefs dominate or determine my political views on this issue, I do believe that tradition, and my religious beliefs say that marriage is something sanctified between a man and a woman."

http://pilgrimsole.blogspot.com/2007/12/god-is-still-speaking.html

[Occam Bandage]

38. But yet you can't find a quote for Clinton's supposed apology for similar statements.

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

39. And? Do you have a link for everything you've heard?

I wish had links for everything, do you?

[Occam Bandage]

41. I can't find such a quote on Google.

[LittleClarkie]

50. Well, if you're going to make an assertion up and down the thread

and insist it makes a difference, then it would be nice if you had a link for it.

Some of us would like to read it. And some of us would like to know, if she's recanted THOSE reasons for her opposition, what then are her NEW reasons.

[Bluerthanblue]

61. If you can't back it up- then rescind it- every one is held to that standard-

otherwise, we run on rumor.

And innuendo.

Not very reliable, or unbiased sources from any one of us.

[kelligesq]

44. obama concerned with racism but not bigotry apparently against gay people

he's a phony and I still say he's goiing to be another boosh for this country only worse. same deal, on the job training, on the take fromlobbiests, and on top of his repulican leanings, Id ont think he would be a president for all of
America. Just like Boosh is a president for billionaires(favoritism) barry is likely to be concerned more with black america than all of america.

[mondo joe]

48. Just compare his responses to Don Imus and onnie McClurkin. NT

[Bodhi BloodWave]

69. well, Obama did write this in his book

It is my obligation, not only as an elected official in a pluralistic society but also as a Christian, to remain open to the possibility that my unwillingness to support gay marriage is misguided, just as I cannot claim infallibility in my support of abortion rights. I must admit that I may have been infected with society's prejudices and predilections and attributed them to God; that Jesus' call to love one another might demand a different conclusion; and that in years hence I might be seen on the wrong side of history.

I am quite happy that he has such a healthy dose of skepticism that he is are willing to question his own views on the matter and admit he might be wrong.

[KennedyGuy]

52. I will never understand how an Afican American..

who has known the pain of discrimination, is so quick to discriminate against another group of people.
It is appalling.

[Bluerthanblue]

60. just as I cannot understand how SOME GLBT individuals are quick to hate

and dismiss people based on a group affiliation, rather than individual actions.

THAT is pitiful- and incredibly sad.

[mondo joe]

70. Who is hated based on group affiliation by the GLBT community?

?

[Bluerthanblue]

75. christians-

[mondo joe]

76. That is bull-fucking-shit. Get off the cross.

Bigots are hated. If you're a Christian bigot, you're a bigot. If you're a Christian non-bigot you're not a bigot.

You have some fucking nerve whining about second class citizens hating you.

[Bluerthanblue]

77. you may make the distinction- or 'claim' that you do- but

if you want to try and tell me-(or make the claim) that there are NOT those here who post saying christians are homophobic mentally unbalanced, weak, mindless, desperate, assholes, then you are either lying - or very stupid.

I'm NOT whining Mondo Joe.

There is enough genuine whining on DU to last for decades.

And what is with the "second class citizens hating you"-? garbage?


Those are YOUR words, and NOT mine.

bitter, angry, dead words.

may you come to know
peace~ and healing.

[mondo joe]

78. Damn right I'm angry. You have the nerve to blame an oppressed group for their

oppressors having hurt feelings?

What a twisted worldview.

[Bluerthanblue]

79. You are not listening-

I am saying that the OPPRESSION and ABUSE that the GLBT community as a whole, and as individuals have experienced, and PRESENTLY continue to face and fight against- should help to guard against doing the same kind of thing to others.

As a person who has been on the receiving end of destructive, deadly abuse myself, I can tell you, that one for the few positives for me, was the- real life, intimate understanding of what suffering and torment is like. Undeserved, unearned, unwarranted oppression and abuse, that comes dancing through life hiding behind lies of "tradition"- "misogyny" "god" and chance.

Personal experience, a vow to refuse to become that kind of hatred, to anyone else is what I'm talking about. Suffering teaches compassion. And sometimes it breeds hatred. I'm sick to death of hate.

I don't blame you for having hurt feelings - and more! But hurt feelings are no justification for tuning around and doing wrong to others, individuals you don't even know. All that need be known is that "they" are one of "_________". (them) in this instance, 'christ'ians. That is bigoted and prejudiced. And it is wrong.

peace~

[mondo joe]

80. You're still full of shit for accusing the LGBT community or any noteworthy

portion of it for hating a group rather than the bigots in it.

[Bluerthanblue]

84. I never did that - and you know it- READ my post-

I specifically said SOME individuals IN the community-

It's right here in this thread MONDO JOE-

Don't let your anger and outrage blind you.

Read my words again, and if I accused the community at large- please point it out to me-

Because I would be very ashamed of myself for doing that- and would want to correct it immediatly.

This society encourages us to view groups, and discount individuals - I don't want to fall into that hole.

It is a grave.

peace to you~ and to us all

[mondo joe]

85. "SOME GLBT individuals are quick to hate..."

Why even specify "some GLBT individuals"?

You made it a gay thing. Live with it.

[Bluerthanblue]

86. - hey-

it's ok.

You are who you are.
And I am who I am.

We are living with it.

peace~

and 'nite.

[MoonRiver]

62. Well isn't that special.

All is forgiven now, NOT.

[LittleClarkie]

63. What do you think of your own candidate's opposition to gay marriage then?

I've seen her reasons, and they are religious based, but someone on the thread said she apologized for stating them the way she did in the quote I found. Nevertheless she apparently still opposes it. If it's true that this quote no longer applies:

"Hillary Clinton and Gay Marriage: Some gay and lesbian voters don't feel like Hillary Clinton has done enough to support gay and lesbian rights, while others believe she is the best candidate for gay and lesbian issues. Clinton opposes gay marriage but supports civil unions between members of the same sex. During her husband's administration, she supported the Defense of Marriage Act, a law preventing the federal recognition of same-sex marriage.

"Marriage has got historic, religious and moral content that goes back to the beginning of time, and I think a marriage is as a marriage always has been, between a man and a woman." - Hillary Clinton, opposing same-sex marriages, quoted in The New York Daily News."

http://lesbianlife.about.com/od/lesbianactivism/p/HillaryClinton.htm

Then I would like to know what her new reasons are, and if they are indeed still religion based, then how is that different from Obama.

[johnnydrama]

64. so wait

Hillary said marriage is between a man and a woman.

She then apologizes for that remark, maybe?

But she's still against gay marriage

So what did she apologize for then?

Doesn't make much sense.

How can you apologize for saying something that you still believe?

[LittleClarkie]

66. Apparently she apologized for HOW she said it

Don't see how that helps, frankly.

And if Obama's stance isn't ideal, neither is Hillary's. That's all I'm saying.

You could probably throw in Edwards as well. He's in opposition too.

[GoldieAZ49]

87. all I could find

and no apology

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3huRVrckY8

[jpgray]

65. Yet the church he belongs to (UCC) supports gay marriage.

[and-justice-for-all]

73. Well there goes my second choice. nt