Just so we're clear, this is where Hillary's church stands on GLBT issues:

[Critters2]

From the United Methodist Book of Discipline:


"Since the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching, self-avowed practicing homosexuals* are not to be accepted as candidates, ordained as ministers or appointed to serve in The United Methodist Church."

*Footnote –- "'Self-avowed practicing homosexual' is understood to mean that a person openly acknowledges to a bishop, district superintendent, district committee of ordained ministry, board of ordained ministry or clergy session that the person is a practicing homosexual." (Book of Discipline, Par. 304.3)
bullet "Homosexual persons no less than heterosexual persons are individuals of sacred worth. All persons need the ministry and guidance of the church in their struggles for human fulfillment, as well as the spiritual and emotional care of a fellowship that enables reconciling relationships with God, with others, and with self. Although we do not condone the practice of homosexuality and consider this practice incompatible with Christian teaching, we affirm that God's grace is available to all. We commit ourselves to be in ministry for and with all persons." (From "The Nurturing Community," a section of the church's Social Principles, Par. 65G).
bullet "The council on shall be responsible for ensuring that no board, agency, committee, commission, or council shall give United Methodist funds to any gay caucus or group, or otherwise use such funds to promote the acceptance of homosexuality. The council shall have the right to stop such expenditures.* This restriction shall not limit the church's ministry in response to the HIV epidemic."

"*Reference is made to a Judicial Council Decision (491) that authorized the right of an annual conference to use funds to study homophobia and another (592) that gave the General Conference the right to create and fund a study of homosexuality." (Book of Discipline, Par. 806.12)
bullet "We affirm the sanctity of the marriage covenant that is expressed in love, mutual support, personal commitment, and shared fidelity between a man and a woman...Ceremonies that celebrate homosexual unions shall not be conducted by our ministers and shall not be conducted in our churches." (From Social Principles, Par. 65C).

[journalist3072]

1. Your point? eom

[hulklogan]

2. Some candidates for the Presidency would fit in well at that church n/t

[babylonsister]

6. Apparently Clinton does. nt

[The_Casual_Observer]

3. What church do you attend?

[Critters2]

9. I'm a member of the United Church of Christ. nt

[Dogmudgeon]

4. Where do Obama's and Edwards' churches stand?

We know where Kucinich's church (Roman Catholicism) stands on GLBT issues.

--p!

[Critters2]

7. Edwards is also United Methodist.

Obama is a member of the United Church of Christ. The UCC was the first Christian church to ordain an openly gay person in 1972. In 2005, the UCC General Synod endorsed Marriage Equality. Here are the UCC's Social Policy Statements on LGBT issues:

http://www.ucc.org/lgbt/statements.html

[Kucinich4America]

5. What is a "self-avowed homosexual" anyway?

I didn't know they took vows.

"I pledge allegiance to the rainbow flag......"

[Critters2]

8. I don't know. Ask those whose churches use such language. nt

[xchrom]

15. oh sure we do -- Gay Central Committee has reams of vows, dress codes,

and Goals{i.e.agenda} we have to sign.

i had to spend a day at the Gay Spa when it was over just to have my wrighting hand tended to -- so i could get on the Militant Gay training.

[Critters2]

16. Do you get the toaster before or after taking vows?

:)

[NMMNG]

17. Oh yes, the vows, dress codes, hand shakes and all that

[Critters2]

18. It's the phrase "practicing homosexual" that I've never understood.

How much do they have to practice before they're good at it?

[NMMNG]

19. Heh heh

:P

[frogcycle]

10. pointless

[TankLV]

11. Pointless crap. My brother-in-law is a methodist minister and he is totally supportive of me and my

partner - always have been.

AND

The methodists have ALREADY ordained a GAYS and WOMEN as pastors - which is causing a split with some bigots in their membership...

Nice way to LIE about the TRUTH...

As soon as obama "reaches out" to RACISTS the way he has REPEATEDLY SOUGHT AFTER homophobic BIGOTS, then we can BEGIN to have a dialogue...until then, shut the fuck up with your phoney "issue"...

[Critters2]

12. Not lying. This is the official position of the UMC

Quoted directly from the Book of Discipline. And those gay and lesbian pastors have lost their standing. The church does not allow them to be ordained.

On edit, here's the latest UMC pastor to lose her credentials because she came out: http://gayspirituality.typepad.com/blog/2005/10/defrocking_of_b.html

[TankLV]

13. WRONG - they are still standing as ordained...

[Critters2]

14. No, they aren't.

Beth Stroud is the latest lesbian to be defrocked because she came out. There are no provisions for ordaining glbt clergy in the UMC.

[murielm99]

22. That is the official position of the church,

but there are many people working from the inside to change things. I hope it happens.

Individual congregations and pastors, like the one mentioned in the above post, are supportive.

My church has several openly Lesbian couples among the membership. They are active in the church. No one here seems to care.

I think there will be a split.

[ruggerson]

20. I understood that Obama's congregation was not open and affirming

which stands in contrast to the views of the National UCC.

Personally, I think their religious views matter only if they have mentioned them in the context of public policy in the secular world.

[VarnettaTuckpocket]

23. That's what I'd heard as well

I thought I heard his pastor was pretty homophobic, and anti gay-marriage, and Barack had to issue a statement distancing himself from him at one point. I've never seen anyone else bring that up here though, so I believed everybody saying his church is super pro-gay.

[water]

21. Kerry was pro-choice.

[jpgray]

24. UCC is pro gay marriage, Obama is against it. Kerry is pro-choice, Catholicism is not

Church membership doesn't always indicate total agreement with church views.

[unc70]

25. This is a major fight within the UMC

Because the UMC is a large denomination formed through mergers, its membership is still fighting this issue. Language has been added that supports membership and participation, while the language condemning the "acts" has not been removed. While some regions of the country support a more inclusive position, including homosexual unions, the votes have not been there to change the church law.

The UMC positions on most issues is quite good (human rights, anti-war/aggression, poverty, women and children, and many others), this is one area that still falls short. A few years ago, this nearly split the church with those opposed to changing to a more liberal position threatening to withdraw from the denomination. That was in the middle of the Repub gay marriage hype a couple of years ago.

[totodeinhere]

27. It is a major fight within many denominations.

And the question is, should someone like Hillary leave a church which is not yet perfect on GLBT issues, or should they stay in the church and fight for change from within?

[LostinVA]

26. I have a friend who is a Methodist minister, and your snippet is a bit misleading

There is a great struggle within the UMC about this, with most of the ministers wanting to perform same sex marriage services. There are just a few big shot holdout bishops that are stopping this from becoming officially allowed. Gays are also totally welcome in many, many -- if not most -- congregations. It's mainly some old guys standing in the way.

I say, "Officially," because she performs them all the time.

[DrFunkenstein]

28. But It's Different For Obama's Church!!!

Because, like Clinton, her supporters are incapable of taking responsibility for a mistake.

[Critters2]

29. My point precisely. Thanks for being, apparently, the only one to get it. nt

[immoderate]

30. This part struck me...

Homosexual persons no less than heterosexual persons are individuals of sacred worth. All persons need the ministry and guidance of the church in their struggles for human fulfillment, as well as the spiritual and emotional care of a fellowship that enables reconciling relationships with God, with others, and with self.

Not so. There are as many paths to "human fulfillment" as there are humans. "Sacred worth" means they'll accept your donation.

The fellowship and reconciliation functions hearken back to a tribal society, where the small group provided the community functions that churches do today, comforting the sick and infirm, socializing children, etc. Humans have been organized into tribes for much of their natural history. But it allowed for the dehumanization of other tribes. Killing, pillaging, raping, and enslavement of rival tribes, are all condoned by the tribal (old testament) god.

When, thanks to the Romans, the world went empire, the Jews had the most powerful god in Yahweh. (Sort of picking out who should be the natural leader in the League of Super Heroes. Superman could kick all of their asses.) So with their respective front men, the god of Abraham became the god of the religions of empire: Christianity and Islam. But people's behavior is fundamentally still tribal.

--IMM

[MyNameGoesHere]

31. i have never thought of HRC as a religious

person. Yes she panders to them as well as the rest, but i think this is a stretch. I think a better barometer would be to analyze her voting records and comments not by posting some religious manifesto that she may or may not subscribe to.

[unc70]

33. I believe a Methodist youth minister started her liberal awakening

If I remember correctly, it was this minister that took her to MLK, got her involved in social causes.

To see what a typical UMC is doing, check out University UMC and its social programs, etc. at http://www.chapelhilluumc.org

Not perfect, but really good. This particular church has a number of gay and lesbian members and works to change the denomination's position.


I regret that Bush and Cheney are also Methodists. I don't see them walking the walk. Neither does the church. The UMC has officially condemed their actions, particularly wrt Iraq, and called for immediate withdrawal of all troops.

[MyNameGoesHere]

34. Well she "maybe" has a religious component

i cannot say for sure. But i do not see her injecting a lot of her religious beliefs in public. Other than the obligatory pandering that they all do. And thanks for the link but I steer clear of ANY religion. It makes me break out in hives :) Cheers.

[unc70]

35. No problem. Don't think Clinton, Edwards, or Obama has used religion much

Neither UCC or UMC are particularly "in you face", both denominations generally maintain a reasonable level of church-state separation.

No problem. Understand the hives. Been there at times myself.

[CorpGovActivist]

32. KNPnta

[wildflowergardener]

36. Church

Not a Clinton supporter, but I am methodist and believe none of this nor would I ever attend a church that taught this. I think some congregations are more liberal than others.

Meg