Kerry speaking on Senate floor now, 11:14AM re assault weapons ban

[flpoljunkie]

[Leilani]

1. Just listened to him

Did you notice, the Dems gave Kerry the closing argument time for the gunshow loophole amendment?

[flpoljunkie]

2. Yes, and they also gave him the rest of their allotted time to finish!

Roll call vote on Feinstein amendment to ban assault weapons is now in progress. Cheny may have to come break the tie--and if he votes against it--he will be voting against Bush's expressed opinion that the assault weapons ban should be continued.

Could get interesting.

[stldemocrat]

3. Amendments

Speaking of amendments, why don't they amend the Constitution to repeal the 2nd Amendment instead of discriminate against the GLBT community?

[Edwards4President]

4. Cause we'd have to pry the 2nd Amdt out of their cold dead hands n/t

[flpoljunkie]

6. You win the post of the day award!

LOL!

[stldemocrat]

7. Ha

My grandma used to like Chuckie's movies (Ben-Hur, The Ten Commandments.), now she can't watch them.

[w4rma]

8. They'll have to pry the 2nd amendment out of my cold dead hands, too.

It is my understanding that the second amendment was put into place to help prevent the formation of a police state/dictatorship/totalitarian government. The constitution must be defendable by regular citizens.

[Edwards4President]

9. I don't have a problem with the 2nd amendment

I have a problem with the way they interpret it.

[stldemocrat]

11. Guns

I don't like people running around with guns. I don't feel violence is the answer. Look at the changes Ghandi made without using violence.

[Zynx]

16. I support the right to bear arms.

Of the tens of millions of gun owners in the country such as myself, only a very small percentage use them to commit violence against their fellow man. 99% of them use them for recreation such as target practice or hunting. Unless you are some kind of animal rights nut, you have no reason to stop us from hunting.

[stldemocrat]

23. Guns

I don't know the fascination so many guys have with guns.

[Zynx]

41. It's fun to shoot at a target range. It's just like anything else.

You know, guns are responsible for around 50% of murders, but knives are resposible for about 35%. Should we ban knives too?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

5. Bush is evil, I agree.

Bush is the enemy, that is clear.

[dsc]

10. If I were an unemployed person

who either didn't care about, or actucally opposed the assult weapons ban, I would be majorly pissed right now. I am very glad Kerry showed up to vote for this but he also should have shown up to vote for the unemployment extention, which failed by two votes (his and Edwards).

[displacedtexan]

12. which would have resulted in a Cheney tie-breaking vote.

How many times do we have to go over the senate rules?

[dsc]

13. Evidently some more since you are dead wrong

The vote was on a procedural motion which needed 60 votes to pass. It got 58. If you are going to be so snide when answering somebody in the future try being correct.

[bigtree]

37. The republicans manuvered that vote so that Dole could vote yea

But they would have twisted one of their own to change to a nay to thwart Kerry if he came running back. If the republicans wanted the bill then they would have produced the votes. There is no democratic approach within their party. They whip each other to tow their party line. No one can make me believe that Daschle didn't have the count on that procedural vote before it happened. I have no doubt that he knew what the score before the vote. These campaigning Senators have a standing agreement to return if their vote will be determinate. To suggest that they did otherwise is a swipe that our own party members and leaders would not advocate. In these votes, everything is not what it seems on the surface. Rather than taking your cue from Kerry's detractors, perhaps you should follow the party view on this which is that these Senators have committed no foul in their missed votes. They are, as we see today, and as we saw on their return to vote against the non-binding 'right to choose' assault by republicans earlier in the month, conducting themselves as they should be expected in a presidential campaign to unseat the primary root of the obstruction in Washington.

[Edwards4President]

43. Hear hear!

Nicely said!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

18. Why keep making these false characterizations?

Why? What is the motive? It makes no sense to me.

[dsc]

20. Just what is false here

That vote failed by two votes. That isn't false it is accurate, true, and falls on Kerry's doorstep.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

21. Let's see

what vote you are talking about?

What vote is it?


Your unsupported assertions are meaningless.

What roll call vote are you discussing, on what date?

I admit that I based my earlier post on what the other poster said. Since you haven't actually said what vote you are talking about, I'm unable to look at the facts of the matter for myself.

on edit: almost an hour later, still no response that says what vote is being discussed. Why is it that when I ask for facts that back up the assertions, the answer is always silence?

[Edwards4President]

27. Here's the argument

The measure failed by two votes
Edwards and Kerry did not vote
Therefore, they caused the measure to fail.

Of course, the problem with that argument is that it assumes that this process is a static one and that if Edwards and Kerry had voted for the extension, everything else would have stayed precisely in place and their votes would have pushed it over the top.

But, we know that is not true. The measure failed, not because Edwards and Kerry didn't vote, but because the Republicans intended for it to fail - and to try to make Kerry and Edwards look bad.

Several Republicans who have always voted against this measure voted yes this time for the express purpose of making the vote look closer than it really was. If Edwards and Kerry had both voted, three Republicans in the yes column would have switched their votes back to no and the bill still would have failed.

I think the people who are making the faulty argument know this - they certainly should since it's been explained countless times. But admitting it would mean that they'd have one less thing to slam Kerry and Edwards with.

[dsc]

31. You keep saying this but I see no evidence to back that up

I know, as an Ohioan, that Dewine and Voinovich have voted for extentions before. They haven't been consistent either way. That is two of your nine.

[Edwards4President]

35. Here's the evidence

Voinovich and Dewine, and several other of the Senators who voted for the extension this time have consistently voted against extensions.

Check it out:

July 10, 2003: "To provide additional weeks of temporary extended unemployment compensation for individuals who have exhausted such compensation and to make extended unemployment benefits under the Railroad Unemployment Insurance Act temporarily available for employees with less than 10 years of service."

Among those voting Against:
Bond (R-MO)
DeWine (R-OH)
Dole (R-NC)
McCain (R-AZ)
Murkowski (R-AK)
Talent (R-MO)
Voinovich (R-OH)
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=108&session=1&vote=00269
May 23, 2003: "To extend the Temporary Unemployment Compensation Act of 2002, to provide additional weeks of temporary extended unemployment compensation, and to make extended unemployment benefits under the Railroad Unemployment Insurance Act temporarily available for employees."

Among those voting Against:

Bond (R-MO)
Chafee (R-RI)
Collins (R-ME)
DeWine (R-OH)
Dole (R-NC)
McCain (R-AZ)
Murkowski (R-AK)
Talent (R-MO)
Voinovich (R-OH)
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=108&session=1&vote=00199

May 15, 2003: "To provide for additional weeks of temporary extended unemployment compensation and to provide for a program of temporary enhanced regular unemployment compensation, and for other purposes."

Among those voting Against:
Bond (R-MO)
Chafee (R-RI)
Collins (R-ME)
DeWine (R-OH)
Dole (R-NC)
McCain (R-AZ)
Murkowski (R-AK)
Talent (R-MO)
Voinovich (R-OH)
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=108&session=1&vote=00152

So, prior to last week Bond, DeWine, Dole, McCain, Murkowski, Talent, and Voinovich voted against every unemployment extension benefit in this Congress. Chafee and Collins voted against two of the three. Yet, last week, they all voted FOR an extension.

You think they all suddenly had a change of heart? Think they'll do anything to push their leadership to have another vote on this at a time that will ensure that it will pass?

I think not. They switched en masse in order to isolate Edwards and Kerry. Please don't fall for it.

[dsc]

42. They both voted for this in 2002

I was on unemployment and monitored it carefully. I think the election gave them a change of heart.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

45. I think the reason you never support your assertions with links

is that you know they are false. Is there another explanation you would care to offer?

[dsc]

49. Yah my mom is in the hosptital and I am visiting her if that is Ok with

you. I always put up links and you know it. But I do have a life. I gave you the date, the name of the bill, and the motion. Get up of your butt and use google or for that matter search here where there were at least two sepeate threads.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

58. OK, so you edited the vulgarity out of your offensive post.

congratulations.

And you expect us to believe that you are at your sick mother's bedside posting on DU?

:wtf:

[Edwards4President]

48. Really? I find no record of either of them voting for such an extension

in 2001 or 2002.

Do you have a citation?

[dsc]

50. letters sent to me by them but no scanner.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

51. Your assertions appear less and less credible

What is your motive?

[dsc]

62. BTW here is my proof

http://www.ffis.org/misc/020402.htm

The Senate yesterday killed rival Republican and Democratic economic stimulus proposals but approved a 13-week extension of unemployment benefits. The additional jobless benefits, which would go to laid-off workers who have exhausted their existing 26 weeks of benefits, were approved by unanimous consent after the Senate deadlocked and dropped consideration of any larger economic package. The benefits bill now goes to the House for final action

Unanimous means all 100 Senators. That means that they voted for it. In short, I was dead right.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

66. I'm sorry but your point is so incoherent I can't make head of tail of it

are you now accusing Kerry and Edwards of voting FOR the extension of unemployment benefits? Those traitors.

lol

and by the way, your understanding of what 'unanimous consent' means in this context is flawed.

[dsc]

68. No it isn't

unamious means all. And I didn't state that Kerry never voted for the extention, I stated he didn't do so last week, and I was spot on.

[Edwards4President]

60. If you really did get letters from them saying they voted for an extension

they lied to you. They voted for no such thing in 2001 or 2002. In fact, as far as I can tell, there was no unemployment benefit extension measure voted on at all during that time.

[dsc]

65. Yes there was

and I just provided the sitation. I know that both you and the other poster refuse to believe that I might have a life outside of catering to your demands. But this took me one, count it one, google search to find. I almost always provide links. In this one case, due to my mother being in the hospital, I wanted to spend my time on line doing stuff for me and not your research. I don't think I deserved to be called a liar for that.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

44. I still want to know

what vote, on what date, we are talking about. Because I don't even know if the argument as presented is factual, or what the true context of the vote - if it took place - is.

But notwithstanding that, I tend to agree with your analysis.

[dsc]

46. google is your friend

this has been posted several times. It was this week, it was a germaneness motion on the bill to immunize gun dealers from lawsuits. It failed 58 to 38. It need 60 to pass. If you still can't find it, frankly I can't help you.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

47. I have to assume that what you are saying is not true.

If you were telling the truth, you'd be willing to back it up.


I miss the rule that stated DUers couldn't just make stuff up and pass it off as the truth, but rather had to back their accusations with references.

I take it you don't miss that rule. :eyes:


by the way, since you seem to have lost track about what assertion I was asking you to reference, it's this one:

"If I were an unemployed person

who either didn't care about, or actucally opposed the assult weapons ban, I would be majorly pissed right now. I am very glad Kerry showed up to vote for this but he also should have shown up to vote for the unemployment extention, which failed by two votes (his and Edwards)."

so again, what vote are you referring to on what date?


Thank you.

[Edwards4President]

52. Here are the facts:

Last week, an amendment to the Gun Liability bill was voted on. The purpose of this amendment was "to extend and expand the Temporary Extended Unemployment Compensation Act of 2002." It needed 60 votes to pass. Of course, passage would not mean it would become law or even get out of the Senate since it would have depended upon the final approval of the bill to which it was attached.

The measure got only 58 votes. All of the Dems voting except Zell Miller (big surprise) voted yes. Kerry and Edwards missed the vote, as did Ben Campbell, who was in the hospital. Eleven Republicans voted with the Democrats.

But, interestingly, nine of these Republicans had voted against extending benefits in the past and seven of those had voted against such measures EVERY time it has come up in the last two years. But, on this vote, they switched over and voted with the Democrats.

It is clear that they did this in order to make the vote as close as possible and, thus, encourage the measure's supporters to blame Kerry and Edwards for the bill's failure. It is also clear that had Kerry and Edwards voted, more Republicans would have voted no, thereby offsetting their votes.

It's a common tactic and one, unfortunately, that far too many DUers have fallen for. They are doing exactly what the Republican strategists intended - shifting focus away from Republican obstructionism and anti-worker stances and slamming Edwards and Kerry for not suspending their efforts to unseat George Bush (and thereby improve the lives of working people) and rushing back to Washington to cast a vote that wouldn't have made a lick of difference to the outcome.

And, as it was, thanks partly to Kerry's and Edwards' votes today on a series of gun amendments that the NRA hated, the Republicans dropped their support of the gun liability bill, which failed miserably.

[dsc]

53. Yeah so that fucking poster who just called me a fucking liar

is flat out wrong. The vote exists just as I said. Will I get an apology fuck no. But thank you for doing what I couldn't.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

55. What I said was

that if you were unwilling to back up your assertion, I would have to assume it wasn't true.


Now, would you care to apologize for misrepresenting what I said, as well as for being unnecessarily vulgar?

lol

[Edwards4President]

59. You're welcome

but I'd really rather you not attack another DUer in a vulgarity-laced post to me.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

56. Thank you for providing the facts and background

that the other poster was so fearful of having revealed.

[dsc]

54. will i get my apology?

and Edwards supporter just provided the info/

[Feanorcurufinwe]

57. You owe me and everyone reading this thread an apology.

I don't see any need to engage in namecalling or vulgarity.



I enjoyed this forum a lot more while those who were unable to behave like adults were banned from it.

[dsc]

61. I'd drink poison first

You flat out called me a liar and were flat out wrong.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

64. Of course

I did not call you a liar.

However, I will take this opportunity to point out that your statement: "You flat out called me a liar" is flat-out false.

It is boring, continually responding to false statements and false personal attacks.

[dsc]

67. No you merely stated I had no credibiilty

I am now two for two on my statements being backed up. In short, I was telling the truth when I stated that Edwards and Kerry missed a vote, which lost by 2 votes to extend Unemployment compensation. And I was telling the truth when I stated that my Senators voted for such an extention at least one time in 2002.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

69. No, I didn't say that either

I don't know what you gain by saying I said something that I didn't say when it's all here in black and white for everyone to read for themselves.

I never accused you of lying and I never said you had 'no credibility' so I don't know why you want to refute a point I didn't make. I guess it is easier than responding to my actual statements.


Frankly you can attack Kerry and Edwards all you want for I care, your viewpoint is such a tiny, insignificant minority of Democrats that I consider it irrelevant.

America is choosing sides between Bush and Kerry, and it's up to you which side you will be on.

[Evil_Dewers]

28. That vote failed by two votes.

So the 38 Republicans who voted not to extend benefits deserve no blame?

[dsc]

30. At least they voted

I do consider the people who show up and vote, even if they vote the way I don't want them to, far less blameworthy than those who don't show up to vote. It is one thing to be honestly against extending unemployment benefits, as presumedly those people are, but it is quite another to say you are for that and then not vote at all. BTW evidently Zell voted with Bush so it was 37 Republicans not 38.

[Evil_Dewers]

32. evidently Zell voted with Bush

Zell still considers himself a Democrat?

You cannot consider "all things constant" if Kerry and Edwards were there to vote. Some of the Rethugs (part of the 58) might have changed their yea votes to nay if both Kerry and Edwards were there.

[dsc]

33. maybe

but five of those nine and maybe more, are up for reelection, including Specter and Murkowski who are very vulnerable.

[Evil_Dewers]

36. Wasn't Specter in danger of losing his party's nomination

to a rightwingnut?

[dsc]

63. I am now two for two

I stated that there was a vote in which Kerry and Edwards didn't vote where unemployment extention lost by two votes. An Edwards supporter supplied that proof. Now I have just posted proof of the fact that not only Voinovich and Dewine voted to extend the benefits but so did every other Senator on that list who was in the Senate in 2002. You owe me an apology.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

70. You probably had the link all along

and didn't want to share it because you knew the facts of the matter would show your attack to be without merit.

(see post 52)

[sandnsea]

29. I totally agree

That affected my own son. We live in Oregon. You are exactly right, they should have showed up for that vote. On the other hand, I'm not entirely sure Republicans didn't vote yes just to make it look like it failed by those two votes. They should have showed up to make it clear.

[bigtree]

38. I want one of them to replace Bush

I want them working towards that instead of spending their time meaninglessly padding their votes.

[jsw_81]

14. Damn! I missed it!

I had to go to the airport.

[flpoljunkie]

15. Here's a photo of Kerry on the Senate floor after the vote.

AP Photo/Mannie Garcia

[JI7]

17. is he wearing that tie again ?

[flpoljunkie]

19. Actually, this one was looked to be a bright pink, not orange.

He looked great, by the way.

[JI7]

22. i think he has two or the color just looks different

i remember freepers complaining about that tie saying it was pink and gay and that kerry was sending a message to his gay supporters. the idiots they are. some others say it looks orange at times. i guess we will see tonight unless he changes into something else.

[jsw_81]

24. They'd ridicule Kerry no matter what

That's something we all need to understand.

[liberalitch]

25. That's because he's going to be the president.....

and a good one i'd bet

[flpoljunkie]

26. Here's another photo of Kerry, Feinstein, Schumer & Kennedy after vote

Kerry gives a thumbs-up in the Capital corridor
AP Photo/ Dennis Cook

[DoNotRefill]

34. God....

I hope that doesn't get wide press....


:(

[bigtree]

39. I do hope it gets wide press

Sometimes I feel like I'm talking in the halls of a high school.

"Eww! He looks gross! He looks goofy!" :eyes:

[DoNotRefill]

40. Not from me....

my objection was that the photo will play well in the NE and California, but will hurt him in the rest of the country, where Schumer, Kennedy, and Fienstein are seen as being the core of the "gun grabbers". I suppose we should count our blessings that Laughtenburg wasn't there....