What's with all the anti-Dean self-proclaimed "progressives" around here?

[stickdog]

First, let's get one thing out of the way. Kucinich is a wonderful candidate with a wonderful platform, but if he gets 15% of the vote in any primary other than Ohio, I'll change my posting name to sickdog.

Which brings me to my second point which is that Dean should be -- and in my personal non-DU experience is -- the obvious alternate choice of Kucinich, Sharpton and Moseley-Braun supporters.

Dean is running a true grassroots campaign. Dean is listening to rank & file Democrats and adapting his platform to their concerns. Dean is criticizing Bush relentlessly, and the success he gained by doing so has forced all the Bush enabling Democratic candidates to tell the truth about Bush's miserable administration. Don't you people remember all-Bush, all-the-time? Don't you remember how and why that finally changed?

I live in San Francisco, and I have a brother who lives near Portland. Both of us are very active in local progressive politics. And both of us and almost all of our friends and fellow activists like Kucinich very much but see Dean as a more than livable compromise who can both beat the tar out of Bush AND forcefully pry this country out of the clutches of radical right neocon imperialist wannabe dictators now running the show.

How any true progressive can see any hope General Clark is completely beyond our comprehension. The guy has no record whatsoever AND he was drafted into the race by the same Washington insiders who brought us the "let's agree with Bush and vote for Iraq" 2002 election strategy, not to mention the complete top down corporatization of the Democratic Party structure.

Dean's not perfect, but he's a decent man who isn't afraid to point out that the emperor is indeed quite naked. Furthermore, he's not fully tied in with the DC establishment/corporate elite, and he's definitely not your average mealy mouthed, oh-so-nuanced politician. Finally, his insurgent, activist campaign actually encourages decentralized creativity in a way that fundamentally revitalizes the democratic spirit of those who volunteer or otherwise participate.

These facts are very obvious to almost EVERY politically aware progressive I know, other than the vast majority of the supposed progressives on this board. Yes, many will fight for and with DK until he pulls out of the race because they more closely share his vision for America's future. But I can't name a single progressive outside of DU who favors Clark to Dean for any reason other than the pragmatic anti-Bush concern that OTHER voters might be so concerned about national security that Clark might have a better chance of winning.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

1. Yeah, let's just ignore Dean's record and focus on his BS rhetoric.

:eyes:

[WiseMen]

66. Dean COLABORATED with Repubs to Undermine Best Candidates

A review of early Repub efforts to slime and diminish Kerry
will show that Dean, either wittingly or otherwise, collaborated
with their strategy beyond their wildest dreams.

[stickdog]

77. That makes sense. I'm sure the Republican strategy to tear down

Kerry was to say that he didn't stand up to Bush enough. :eyes:

[TLM]

84. Shhhh facts and logic have no place within a Dean bashing post

so just stop brigning them up, they get in the way of attacks on Dean.

You know he eats babies and drinks pee?

[TLM]

81. What records would those be?

Civil unions, heath care, success by six, clean air standards, protected land, prescription drug benefit, raising the minimum wage twice, fully funding Vermont schools by equalizing property tax, and all while balancing the state budget.

That record?

[kerry-is-my-prez]

138. Have any of the Dean supporters taken the time to look at his record?

I think not.... I don't know how they could possibly support him if they did. He's very, very, very conservative.

[BeyondGeography]

2. A manipulative opportunist

who will not lead you to your utopian promised land and will lead the party to a crushing defeat. Other than that, I think he's great.

[worldgonekrazy]

36. Opportunist? How about Clark

The guy is practically a one man Greek tragedy. Hubris for everyone.

[Dookus]

3. I'm not anti-Dean...

I'm pro-Clark. Because I think he's the most liberal candidate running who has a serious shot at getting the job. When I look at his views, they're to the left of Dean's. I like that.

[blm]

4. Dean's record shows he was a GOP/corporate buttkisser for 11 years

and many of us base our beliefs on a person's record when he was in office and NOT snowed by election year conversions which appear pretty unprinicipled to most longtime observers.

[molly]

I agree

[killbotfactory]

9. Yeah, he worked with both sides on each issue and accomplished good things

What a horrorshow.

[vi5]

11. Yes, but when Kerry or Gephardt or whoever else...

wors with the other side they are flip flopping or republican enablers.

I'm all in favor of politicians working with the other side to actually get things accomplished. By that standard most of our current candidates fit the bill.

[killbotfactory]

18. They can woo the other side all they want...

But if what they come up with is crap like NCLB, or the tax cuts, or the IRAQ war... well... they aren't very good negotiators, or something.

I don't care who they work with so long as what's accomplished is a good thing. Dean's approach to conflicts seem to have actually accomplished good things.

[vi5]

21. So it has to be good in your eyes.....

Well, let me know what is good and bad so I can make an accurate assesment of what each has accomplished.

The fact is that all the candidates have made compromises and all the candidates have their individual success stories and areas where they have stood their ground.

It's up to us as individuals to look at their overall record and decide which best suits us.

As I mentioned in another post, I don't want anyone else telling me what issues or votes from a candidate make me a liberal.

[killbotfactory]

58. I'm not telling you what to think is good or bad..

Just giving an opinion. I don't like the compromises made by the democrats since Bush has been (s)elected. It's like they failed to realize he lost the popular vote and didn't have a mandate. I don't get it. I think huge tax cuts were a mistake, even the democrat proposed version of it, NCLB was crap policy whether funded or not, and the positioning of the democrats on the Iraq war an offensive joke.

I look at Dean's record and statements and see a guy who's willing to go out on a limb for what he believes is right, and tenaciously works for his ideals in baby-steps if he can't get everything he wants. He takes a scientific approach to each issue then goes for it, rather than examining the polls and figuring out what he should do from there.

That's why I support him.

The others are good people, but just don't impress me as much or share my views on politics as closely as Dean.

[blm]

23. They negotiated to get inspectors back in

that Bush did not want. They negotiated to keep the UN in the picture which Bush did not want. They negotiated to stop further extension of force into Iran and Syria.

Dean supported the EXACT same measure that allowed Bush to make the final determination for use of force, even if unilateral, so please stop the demagoguery.

NONE of the others supported Bush's taxcut, either, but that doesn't stop Dean from saying they did.

Lies and the Lying Liars who tell them.

[killbotfactory]

28. I don't want to rehash this arguement for the thousandth time..

And I don't think I'm exaggerating with saying it's the thousandth time I've argued this...

I think Dean was right on the Iraq war. I think the others were wrong. That's my final answer.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Padraig18]

49. Pot. Kettle. Black. n/t

[killbotfactory]

61. I'm a Dean supporter because he was right.

And didn't nuance his way out of the political fallout of his decision to be against the invasion.

[Scott Lee]

68. Just curious - have you won any converts for Kerry today?

I'll bet not. In fact, I'll bet you haven't yet.

Negative reactionism is not only counterproductive - its downright unDemocratic.

[jmaier]

82. LOL

Scott, surely you jest? :-)

[edzontar]

100. Do you think was really the goal?

nt

[TLM]

98. BLM why did Kerry say that Saddam had NUKES??

“If You Don’t Believe In The U.N. ... Or You Don’t Believe Saddam Hussein Is A Threat With Nuclear Weapons, Then You Shouldn’t Vote For Me.” - Los Angeles Times, 1/31/03)


Kerry supported the war, and in the debates he said he made the right decision supporting Bush, then in Pitt's interview he said he made a mistake supporting Bush, then when Saddam was captured, Kerry flip flopped again to try and take credit for it.

The man is a coward... has been since he faked throwing his metals over the white house fence.

Attacking Dean will not change the fact Kerry is a coward who cared more about his career than the hundred of Americans he was helping Bush send to their deaths.

[blm]

132. Because he believed Scott Ritter's testimony in 1998.

And Dean deserves EVERY attack he gets for being a lying demagogue.

[killbotfactory]

156. Ritter said Saddam had nukes in 98?

Really?

[TLM]

95. Once again claimign IWR was exactly the same as Biden Lugar...

THis is how desperate some Kerry supporters have grown to rationalize away their candidates support for Bush's war in Iraq.

Here's the truth about BL vs IWR.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Wednesday, October 2, 2002

WASHINGTON - The American Civil Liberties Union today said that a bipartisan Senate compromise on a resolution allowing the President to use force to oust Saddam Hussein is far more faithful to the Constitution than the blank check resolution being lobbied for by the White House.

"Thankfully, this compromise embodies the lessons learned from the Gulf of Tonkin incident," said Timothy Edgar, an ACLU Legislative Counsel. "Granting the President a blank check to engage in overseas adventures is a recipe for human tragedy. This compromise resolution acknowledges those lessons."

In its letter to the Senate, the ACLU reiterated that it is neutral on whether the United States should go to war. However, it told the Senate that it remains firm in its conviction that the Constitutional obligations on Congress to make decisions about war need to be respected, especially with foreign policy questions of this magnitude.

The new resolution, negotiated by Senate Foreign Relations Chairman Joseph Biden (D-DE) and Former Chairman Richard Lugar (R-IN), eliminates most of the similarities between the resolution the President wanted and the disastrous Gulf of Tonkin resolution, which led to a decade-long morass in which tens of thousands of Americans lost their lives.

Specifically, the Biden-Lugar compromise:

Clearly identifies the enemy. The proposed resolution closes the door to regional adventures in the Middle East. Under the proposed compromise, the President would have to seek additional Congressional authorization if he wished to widen the conflict in the region.
Spells out clear military objectives. Congress would hold a tight leash on the current conflict. This would be in marked contrast to its role in the Vietnam War, which was lost in part because of nebulous war aims. The Biden-Lugar compromise realizes the folly of sending troops into harm's way without delineating the specific military objectives to be accomplished.

Reaffirms the American conviction that war-making power should lie with the people. In contrast with the Gulf of Tonkin resolution, the Biden-Lugar compromise would respect the ongoing prerogatives of Congress during military engagement. The Constitution demands that American military decisions involving the use of force rest only with the people's representatives in Congress.

The ACLU's letter on the Biden-Lugar compromise can be found at:
http://archive.aclu.org/congress/l100202a.html

[Scott Lee]

65. What bloody evil consensus is

[TLM]

91. Yet every time you make this claim, you have nothing to back it up

why is that... you constantly attack Dean record, yet when asked for specifics about this huge conservative record... nothing.

Unless you count some half quote op ed rant from the socialist review.

Dean record in Vermont was fantastically progressive... from civil unions to protecting more than than any governor before him to success by six and raising the minimum wage to health care and funding education.

The most liberal state in the union reelected Dean 5 times in a row... yet you think you know better than folks in Vermont what kind of leader Dean was?

Face it, Kerry is over, he lost the primary because he spent the last three years kissing Bush's ass. Trying to project that onto Dean won;t help Kerry's campaign one bit.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

117. What have you had your head in the sand?

http://www.counterpunch.org/jacobs08292003.html
http://www.vpirg.org/campaigns/financeReform/cfr_page111.html
http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/33681.html
http://www.vtce.org/deancrisisagvt.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A1907-2003Jul2
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/09/13/dean_backed_medicare_cuts_in_1995_gephardt_says_boston_globe http://rutlandherald.com/Archive/Articles/Article/31792
http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/jul98/deanoped.htm
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=114-10312003


Dean backs rationing medical care in Vermont
http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:dIXubTUiHgIJ:www.stowereporter.com/community/dean39.shtml+stowereporter+Dean+ration&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
(10/02/00) Vermont. - "Patients should be told to take their business elsewhere if they objected," he said, before a gathering at the Stowe Mountain Resort last week. "Doing this would be controversial, Dean acknowledged. But it would help small businesses by containing health-care costs," he said.

Dental care for low-income residents abysmal, Sanders says
http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/State/Story/19669.html

Vermont’s working poor to be billed for Medicaid
http://www.rutlandherald.com/News/Story/73093.html





(When Dean became governor) they (liberal Democrats) were all thinking, oh we got a Democrat back in the governor's office. And all of the sudden they find Howard Dean's worse on spending (than Snelling). The state was headed into a recession at the time. And Snelling before he died, he and Ralph Wright cut a deal on raising the income taxes and (inaud.) the deficit--a few years of austerity. Howard stuck with the plan. And as Dick McCormack (Democratic Senator from Windsor) will tell you of the meeting where he (Dean) met with the Democratic Caucus and told them then, and this might have been before, when he was still lieutenant governor, and told the Democratic Senators, you're never going to win because people don't trust you with their money. None of your great and lofty goals and plans and aspirations will ever be achieved because people don't trust Democrats with their money. We got to prove it to 'em. And that was key. I mean his political enemies for the first three terms were Democrats at the State House, not Republicans. Republicans loved his budgets.
--Peter Freyne, veteran Vermont political reporter
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean/dean0702/freyneint.html



Why isn't Vermont taking renewable energy seriously? by Sam Corner
http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/Columnists/Sam/0324045549.htm

Governor Howard Dean talks about coal-fired power plant By Nancy Bazilchuk Free Press Staff Writer
N.H. environmentalists worry about coal-fired plant in Vermont
By J.M. Hirsch, Associated Press, 3/21/2001
Dean calls for new coal-fired power plant in Vermont, later backs off
By David Gram, Associated Press, 3/21/2001
Why is Gov. Dean brushing aside strategies for energy conservation?
Dean replacing critics on environmental advisory panel April 8, 2001,
public. http://www.vtce.org/deanoncoal.html


Over the years, the governor has sided with the utilities on many of the most pressing issues,
including the push for deregulation of the electric industry, and later backing away from that as a goal.
http://timesargus.com/Archive/Articles/Article/43125

Howard Dean, once an ardent proponent of electric industry competition,
said recently that he was glad the Legislature derailed his administration's drive to deregulate.
http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/14542.html

Vermont Gov. Howard Dean thanked lawmakers for blocking his push to deregulate 3 1/2 years ago.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/02/03/power.woes.02/

[Colin Ex]

5. Well, let's see.

I can think of a few things off the top of my head that might inspire some progressives to dislike Dean.

A) Lying about Kucinich's record. Dean is not the only candidate who was "against the war from the start."

2) Pro-occupation of Iraq. Baugh.

III) Dean really isn't a super-progressive. He's a DLC centrist from Vermont.

D) A Rating from the NRA. Might make a few people wary, which is okay.

5) Cough, insurance, cough.

Anyway, the point is this: not everybody is stupid enough to be willing to take it on the chin in the primaries.

-C

[TLM]

99. Why ignore the fact the DLC attacked Dean

as a "fringe leftist?"

[curse10]

6. Except Dean is nowhere near being a "progressive"

he's a moderate centrist- and that's being nice.

Every progressive I know doesn't support Dean. They either support DK or Kerry. And a few Clark people thrown in.

I wouldn't call Clark a progressive, but he sure is a lot further to the left than Dean- and if it comes down to those two Clark will have my vote.

[worldgonekrazy]

39. Well I am a progressive and I support Dean

And I know plenty of other progressives that do.

Dean is easily mistaken as a moderate centrist for a few reasons. First of all, he likes to promote that image because we all know a partisan liberal cannot win the Whitehouse. So that is just good strategy. Secondly, his policies are not openly progressive but do have the effect of being progressive. Which is more important? That it looks progressive or that it is progressive? I believe the latter.

[curse10]

127. Yeah

cutting social programs, sure is progressive. 100% rating from the NRA. Super progressive! Providing tax havens for big business! Super duper progressive with cherries on top!

[vi5]

7. I am a die hard progressive liberal.....

And I'm neither anti-Dean nor pro-Dean.

My issue is that a lot of Dean supporters are pretty much basing their support of him as more "progressive" than the others on 1 or 2 issues, namely The Iraq War.

Personally speaking this issue is important to me and I was against the war. But I simply refuse to throw out candidates who overall have more liberal track records and solid actual voting records, just to get behind someone who holds little more than a hypothetical position on a vote that he didn't have to actually make.

I like things about all the candidates and I dislike things about all the candidates.

What I don't like about Dean and many (though not all) of his supporters is they purport to tell me what issue should be important to me. So if I don't want to dismiss candidates with solid liberal voting records, just on one or two votes I'm not "progressive"?

[curse10]

10. thank you!

one vote does not take away the liberal label.

[g.hadi4dean]

8. Dean Opponents Just Don't Get the Message

Clearly, those that oppose dean don't understand his message.... I'm 110% behind Dean and am working tirelessly to get him elected. I can't wait for Shrub to be put in his place!

Clark would be fine except that he was a member of the same military that's tearing apart the Middle East in an insane quest for oil. Don't you think that he'd follow Shrub's orders just like the current crusaders in IRAQ?

Clark is a representative of the clinton/shrub-lite/gop-lite idiots that have destroyed our party.

[Colin Ex]

12. Hey, yo.

Welcome to DU!

-C

[lancdem]

15. You mean the "idiots" that led us to two straight triumphs

in presidential elections (and three straight wins in the popular vote)?

[BeyondGeography]

34. Clark will take money from the Pentagon

to protect social spending. He has the knowledge and the credibility to do that. Clark will also have the credibility to keep us out of costly foreign misadventures without being labelled a threat to national security. Dean is a fiscal conservative whose middle class tax hike plans will have no political life whatsoever. So he'll be forced to cut spending. Should Dean, a perceived novice and weakling on defense, go after the Pentagon, the right wing will have a field day and he'll be faced with declining poll ratings and a mid-term election disaster. Situational politician that he is, he'll back down. And there goes social spending folks.

Progressive goals are better served by a candidate who can stand up to the Pentagon, and that's not Dean.

[stickdog]

53. Clark will do whatever he's ordered to do. Dean won't.

That's the entire essence of what this whole "Stop Dean at any cost" crap is about.

And what's sad is that even a good liberal like Kerry proved that he too would take orders when American most needed him to stand up for what he knew was right. And what's so ironic about it is that a clear shot at the White House was supposed to be his reward for biting his tongue. Ah, well. It must be tough for Kerry to accept that he got cast as the tragic hero in a classic American political morality play.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Padraig18]

19. Don't call me out, please. n/t

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stickdog]

35. You know whom I don't like? People who unjustly accuse others of

their own sins.

[edzontar]

52. I agree.

This thread contains some of the most idiotic posts i have ever read anywhere.

Some of them make Free Republic look rational.

Somebody open a window!!!

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bombtrack]

20. Amen, democrats who hate Dean I beleive outnumber those who like him

And we won't back down, while the GOP helps him get the nomination

[edzontar]

27. "Hate" Dean?

You and your friends have gone serioulsy over the deep end, IMHO.

I guess you will voting non-Dem, then, if Dean wins the primaries?

[ErasureAcer]

33. hell yes

not that my vote matters.

a 3rd party isn't going to win.

I don't give a damn.

Given evil or evil. A liar or a liar.

I will choose neither every time.

I hate Howard Dean
I hate Howard Dean
I hate Howard Dean

this country is going to hell.

[edzontar]

70. With "thinking" and logic of the type you display here...

You may just be right.

[polpilot]

101. This is quite a crowd today. Group therapy maybe? Can you imagine

how pissed off the Bush hard core supporters are going to be next summer when Howard is busy nailing Chimpy to the cross. My, my if Dean is getting this from disappointed demo supporters I shudder to think the reaction from the masses when he hammers psycho George.

Dean '04...

[edzontar]

115. Certainly a sore loser's extravaganza here today....

Spiced, not doubt, by the usual smattering of trolls and disruptors.

My vote for worst bunch of posts in the history of this forum-EVER.

[Bombtrack]

48. I'm not going to bother voting for a landslide loser

If the state I'm in is competative for Bush it's over for the democratic party anyway.

So, I'm not going to vote period if Dean is the nominee.

Who's gone more over the deep end, people who hate one guy or people who hate everyone else(other serious candidates)?

[stickdog]

72. The answer is glaringly obvious to anyone who has followed

your work.

Correct me if I'm wrong here. Are you saying that if Dean gets the nomination, you'll give up being a Democrat?

[edzontar]

85. The person said he would not vote....

Which places the whole argument in context, I think....

[TLM]

103. Can't give up being something you never were

I have a strong suspician that there is an effort by some folks to make DK supporters look like hate mongering retards and to forment hostility between Dean supporters and other candidate supporters.

I've been waiting for this. Dean has strong pull witht eh greens and progressives and that scares folks like Clark supporters and Bush supporters... so there's been a real sudden jump in the number of people claiming to support DK but being total dicks and doing nothing but attacking Dean.

I think the point is to get those actual supporters of DK to feel like they shouldn't even bother voting in the general.

[edzontar]

76. I would say that so-called progressives who "Hate" Dem candidates

And sit out the election out of spite would qualify for "over the top".....

Besides, who "hates everyone else"...?

[Bombtrack]

92. alot of the dean-supporters seem to hate all the other major candidates

and see them as "warmongers" and rethug-lite, which I think illustrates stickdogs point that as a whole, Dean's supporters are the farthest left of any candidate.

I don't know if that section of the far left is naturally attracted to such an angry unpleasant snob like Dean or not. But I do believe that the further away from the political mainstream you get the more unreasonable and hostile you tend to get as well

[edzontar]

102. Dean is a conservative!!! Dean is a leftist!!!!

HATE HATE HATE HATE..that is what I am reading here today...mindless, stupid, infantile, HATE.

I don't hate any of the other candidates, even after some of your cohort here have done their best to make them look like idiots.

[Bombtrack]

107. Actually Dean is neither, he's a DLC democrat like most other candidates

His platform is moderate, his record is moderate.

I was talking about his supporters which you apparently missed

[edzontar]

110. Whatever. When you have a positive point to make, let me know...

nt

[killbotfactory]

24. Is this what happens when you believe everything negative written about...

a candidate?

Sheesh.

[ErasureAcer]

29. This has nothing to do with the media

Dean's lies are his own doing.

I hate Howard Dean
I hate Howard Dean
I hate Howard Dean

[killbotfactory]

45. What lies?

Did he lie about reducing child abuse in vermont?
Or balancing the budget?
Or saying Iraq wasn't an imminent threat and we shouldn't be invading?
Or saying NCLB is bad policy?
Or saying we shouldn't be passing out huge tax cuts?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

55. You don't really want me to list Dean's lies do you?

I mean we all at DU know for a fact Dean is a liar, there are so many instances of blatant, self-serving lies from Dean during this campaign it's sickening. You obviously don't care, but many of us do.

If you insist, I will show the lies, which you are already as familiar with as I am.

[killbotfactory]

62. Sure, go for it...

Is it because he failed to acknowledge Kucinich as a major candidate who opposed the war?

Or because he mistakenly said he never considered raising the retirement age of social security?

Sure, he was wrong.

Well, I guess two instances are numerous.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

94. Not that I believe you care whether or not Dean is a liar but here you go

Dean also took issue with a characterization by a TV interviewer that he had been a "strong supporter" of NAFTA, the 1994 North American Free Trade Agreement. Dean acknowledged that he had supported NAFTA, but took exception to the "strong" part. "I never did anything about it," he said. "I didn't vote on it. I didn't march down in the street demanding NAFTA. I simply wrote a letter (to President Clinton) supporting NAFTA."

The Gephardt campaign subsequently called attention to a transcript of a Jan. 29, 1995 "This Week" show in which Dean told a different interviewer that "I was a very strong supporter of NAFTA."
http://www.n-jcenter.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/Politics/NationWorld/03LegislaturePOL03091503.htm

Back when Howard Dean was running for governor of Vermont in 1992, he told the National Rifle Association in a signed questionnaire that he opposed any restrictions on private ownership of assault weapons.

These days, running for the Democratic presidential nomination and appealing to a very different electorate from that of his small, largely rural state, Dr. Dean assures audiences that he firmly supports the assault weapons ban enacted under President Bill Clinton in 1994 though vigorously opposing any further federal regulation of guns.

Dr. Dean declined a request for an interview on Thursday.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/31/politics/campaigns/31GUNS.html?ex=1068181200&en=bf47a83479534761&ei=5062






STEPHANOPOULOS: (Gephardt) also says that in 1995, you specifically supported the 270 billion dollars or so in tax cuts that were called for by Newt Gingrich --

DEAN: I think that's very unlikely.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Here's the document?And it's pretty clear that you said you would accept a seven- to ten-percent cut in the rate of growth of Medicare, which is --

DEAN: Oh, a cutting the rate of growth is much different --

STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, except that the cut in growth rate in 1995 came to 270 billion dollars.

DEAN: I've got to find out?but I fully subscribe to the notion which is to reduce the Medicare growth rate to ten percent or less, I'm sure I said that.

STEPHANOPOULOS: That's what Newt Gingrich was calling for in 1995.
http://www.liberaloasis.com/archives/091403.htm#091603




GEPHARDT: Howard and I just have a basic disagreement. He said in, I think, 1993 that Medicare was the worst federal program ever. He said that it was the worst thing that ever happened.

He also supported, at our darkest hour--when I was leading the fight against Newt Gingrich and the Contract With America, he was shutting the government down--Howard, you were agreeing with the very plan that Newt Gingrich wanted to pass, which was a $270 billion cut in Medicare.

Now, you've been saying for many months that you're the head of the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party. I think you're just winging it.

This is not the view of Democrats, in my view.

This program has been under attack from the Republicans since the beginning. And we need a candidate against George Bush that can take the fight to him on it, not someone who agreed with the Gingrich Republicans.

WILLIAMS: Governor Dean?

DEAN: That is flat-out false, and I'm ashamed that you would compare me with Newt Gingrich. Nobody up here deserves to be compared to Newt Gingrich.

(APPLAUSE)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A433-2003Sep25.html






"Sen. Bob Packwood (R-Ore.): I've said many times that I think we should raise the retirement age about the year 2015--raise it by that time to about age 70.

"Howard Dean: I am very pleased to hear Bob Packwood because I absolutely agree we need to reduce the--I mean, to increase the retirement age. There will be cuts and losses of some benefits, but I believe that Sen. Packwood is on exactly the right track."
--CNN's Crossfire, Feb. 28, 1995
http://slate.msn.com/id/2086804/

Here we have Dean on the record as supporting raising the retirement age.

Russert: ...calling for that, and this is what Howard Dean said. "The way to balance the budget, Dean said, is for Congress to cut Social Security, move the retirement age to 70, cut defense, Medicare and veterans pensions, while the states cut almost everything else. 'It would be tough but we could do it,' he said."
Dean: Well, we fortunately don't have to do that now.
Russert: We have a $500 billion deficit.
Dean: But you don't have to cut Social Security to do that.
Russert: But why did you have to do it back then?
Dean: Well, because that was the middle of--I mean, I don't recall saying that, but I'm sure I did
--Meet the Press, June 22, 2003
http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp

Here we have Dean being reminded, and acknowledging, on national TV on June 22 that he did hold this position.

"I have never favored Social Security retirement at the age of 70, nor do I favor one of 68."
--AFL-CIO Democratic presidential candidate forum, Aug. 5, 2003
http://slate.msn.com/id/2086804/

Here we have Dean denying on national TV on August 5 that he ever held that position.




I don't think that is comprehensive by any means, but it is a good sampling of Dean's lies.
The following are flip-flops, pandering, maybe not exactly lies:

"We have to stop terrorism before peace negotiations"
http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.11.22/news3.html

said he didn't "believe stopping the terror has to be a prerequisite for talking."
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/09/10/elec04.prez.dean.mideast/





"I am not among those who say that America should never use its armed forces unilaterally. In some circumstances, we have no choice. In Iraq, I would be prepared to go ahead without further Security Council backing if it were clear the threat posed to us by Saddam Hussein was imminent, and could neither be contained nor deterred."
--2/17/02
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean/dean021703sp.html


He said he would not support sending U.S. troops to Iraq unless the United Nations specifically approved the move and backed it with action of its own.

"They have to send troops," he said.
--2/22/03
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/nation/5236485.htm




In 1992, Dean said, "I don't support the death penalty for two reasons. One, you might have the wrong guy, and, two, the state is like a parent. Parents who smoke cigarettes can't really tell their children not to smoke and be taken seriously. If a state tells you not to murder people, a state shouldn't be in the business of taking people's lives." The Rutland Herald, a Vermont newspaper, says that in those days "Dean was an outspoken opponent of the death penalty."

In early June 2003, Dean issued a statement declaring, "As governor, I came to believe that the death penalty would be a just punishment for certain, especially heinous crimes, such as the murder of a child or the murder of a police officer. The events of Sept. 11 convinced me that terrorists also deserve the ultimate punishment."
http://slate.msn.com/id/2088207/




TT: You?d reverse Bush?s tax cut, I gather?

Dean: Not all of it, almost all of it...
http://www.txtriangle.com/archive/1049/coverstory.htm

But Dean publicly changed his position Wednesday when he released the following statement in response to Bush's signing of a new $350 billion tax-cut package: "We must repeal the entire package of cuts - both those signed today and those passed in 2001."
http://desmoinesregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/21393032.html





Dean made headlines in March for vowing to attack any candidate that didn't commit to public financing like he was.
http://timesargus.nybor.com/Local/Story/61946.html
Then he made headlines in August for backing off his pledge:
http://www.beaufortgazette.com/24hour/politics/story/969954p-6802617c.html

It wasn't the first time he backtracked on such a pledge, he'd done so in an earlier governor's race. http://www.rutlandherald.com/News/Story/70402.html

And going even farther, he tried to permanently remove funding for Vermont's public financing system altogether.

Governor Dean's Plan to Remove Funding

Early on in the 2002 legislative session, Democratic Governor Howard Dean targeted the public financing provision of the law for elimination. VPIRG led the effort to preserve funding for public financing of qualifying candidates. The Governor claimed that the law was not working and therefore should not be funded until a final court decision has been reached. Working with Republicans, Progressives and Democrats, VPIRG was able to keep public financing alive (although hundreds of thousands of dollars were taken for other unrelated uses). Read more on this issue.
http://www.vpirg.org/campaigns/financeReform/cfr_page111.html

All that aside, I wouldn't support someone with Dean's record even if I did think he was honest. If I wanted those kind of policies, I would just vote Republican.

[maddezmom]

104. quite a list

appreciate you taking the time to put it up.

[killbotfactory]

111. First off, the NRA thing is a bunch of crap...

Saying you wouldn't ban all semi-auto weapons is not the same as what the Assault Weapons Ban did. Nevermind the differences between federal and state laws. The AWB only banned semi-auto's with certain features, not all of them.

This would be the equivilent of asking someone "Do you support throwing everyone who is 26 years old in jail?" (obviously, they'd say no) and then calling them a hypocrit or liar for allowing or supporting holding anybody who is 26 years old in jail. It makes no goddamned sense.

Now, besides the stuff I already mentioned in the previous post, the rest of the stuff is just "gotcha" bullcrap. The guys been in politics for, what, 20 years? You really expect him to remember every friggin comment that's come out of his mouth? That's insane. Would it reflect on your character if you don't remember every word out of your mouth for the past one or two decades? Be reasonable.

He acknowledged he supported NAFTA, and now he wants to change it for the better.

He acknowledged he supported limiting the growth of medicare, and now he doesn't feel that is necessary.

He acknowledged he supported raising the retirement age in 2015, now he doesn't think it's necessary, but will consider it if he has to.

The flip-flops are just out of context quotes cherry-picked to make it look like he flip-flopped.

Take the quote about unilateral action, for instance. He said he wouldn't rule out unilateral action in one, and then said that the UN must send troops in the other. Why? Well, if you read the full second quote, you will see it's because he said Iraq did not pose an imminent threat. His qualification for unilateral action was always whether or not Iraq was an imminent threat.

This is the kind of stuff that doesn't impress me. In fact, it just makes me think all the anti-Dean articles posted here is a bunch of crap. Everytime i've looked into Dean's supposed "flip-flops" or lies they are either blown out of proportion, blatant lies from out of context quotes, or other nonsense.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

126. Like I said, I knew you didn't care whether he's a liar or not.

Anything can be excused by a true believer.

Enjoy your Kool-Aid.

[killbotfactory]

128. Thanks for the rational response

Wait.. there was no rational response....

Quick, what were you thinking on evening of May 20th, 1995?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

141. You're welcome.

For the record, I respect you as much as I do Howard Dean.

[killbotfactory]

143. For the record.

I don't care.

Anyone who has to insult people who don't agree with them and won't even try to debate issues isn't worth the time of day.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

151. lol

Your attempt to explain and justify Dean's lies doesn't rise to the level of 'debate'. And the strongest argument for my position, that Dean is a liar, is ably enunciated by Dean himself.

You asked, in post 45, 'What lies?', disingenuously pretending you've never heard of this stuff before. But in actual fact, you and I have already argued about every single one of these points. Repeatedly. Ad nauseum. As you well know.

[killbotfactory]

154. LOL indeed

Your attempt to paint Dean as some cynical horrible man who lies at every opportunity doesn't rise to the level of debate.

I can take anybody's words out of context and use them against them. That doesn't impress me.

People who expect candidates to remember everything they've said during the past 20 years, and holding it against them, don't impress me.

People who don't even understand basic gun control laws and try and call Dean a hypocrit because he didn't pass any in VT don't impress me.

[redqueen]

113. Lots of trash talking elsewhere

Wonder if this will get a response. One with substance, specifically. God knows we've seen enough -- 'but he's winning, so there!' idiocy.

[killbotfactory]

119. Was my post not substantial enough?

This is ridiculous.

Just because some people don't agree with you, doesn't make them idiots, or blinded partisans, or whatever.

[edzontar]

32. Find a more constructive target for your anger and hate....

I mean. seriosuly, we have a GOPresident to defeat in the fall...what gives with this crazy rhetoric?

[Amolibri]

79. Divided we fall...

IF the main goal...DEFEAT of the regime is THE goal, then the intra-party bashing needs to end. Sometimes I wonder...do you remember this much bashing by Reps. of each other around this time in the last pres. primaries? We need a good, strong, believable, straight-talking candidate (which I believe Dean could be) and an 'attack dog' like James Carville!

[revcarol]

40. But liars are WINNERS.

Just look at the liar in the WH.

Seriously though, Dean is at the BOTTOM of my list, right down there with Lieberman after

NUMERO UNO:his lies about Kucinich,

NUMERO DOS: his statement that we can't reduce the defense budget in this "time of terror,"

NUMBER THREE: his "balance the budget" (on the backs of the poor) rhetoric.

NUMBER FOUR: his terrible environmental record in Vermont

AND I ALMOST FORGOT...

NUMBER FIVE: our troops gotta stay in Iraq "at least several more years!!"

What self-respecting progressive could vote for Dean?At least in the primaries we have several BETTER fine candidates.

[stickdog]

97. I'll agree that DK, AS & CMB are better.

However, Dean didn't lie about Kucinich so much as he was dismissive of him. I don't approve, but it's no different than what he did to Graham. And he was proven right about Graham, and he'll soon be proven right about DK.

2) We do have real security issues that need addressing (like Russian nukes, the proliferation of WMDs, port and border security). Dean has said he'll reapportion the defense budget. To suggest that he'd slash it at this point in US history would be political suicide. Please note that nobody other than DK, AS & CMB (and sometimes Clark?) are suggesting otherwise.

3) We need to drastically increase revenue and/or decrease outflows if we want to preserve social security and give Americans universal healthcare. Bush created this nightmare, not Dean. And the poor never got a tax cut under Bush, so don't pretend that they did. Meanwhile, the rich got HUGE breaks.

4) A "terrible" environmental record? Why? Because Vermont Greens & socialists weren't happy?

5) Once again, the Iraq nightmare is Bush's & DC Dem's, not Dean's.

[indigo32]

56. Wow you sure live up to your sig line

that's all I got to say.

[stickdog]

64. Where is the world is this hatred coming from?

The man is just the ex-Governor of a nice little liberal state who listened to Dem voters and realized that he might be able to win this thing if he'd just stand up for them.

Bush has killed thousands and made us mortal enemies with millions. Bush has gutted all our environmental laws and handed over the US Treasury to his biggest contributors.

How in the hell can you compare Dean with Bush?

Dean will say what it takes to get elected like Clinton did -- like any successful politician does.

But how in the hell can you compare Dean with Bush?

I need to know what is going on inside your skull.

[revcarol]

69. Bush's lies fried his brain.

And when Dean does the same thing,lies, over and over again, his brain went up in smoke!!

HAVE PITY. SOME OF US HATE LIARS. And WHEN OUR OWN lie about our own, we get very upset!!

[Scott Lee]

74. Bitter anger at a frontrunning candidate.

Thats it, in a nutshell. Sad, isnt it?

[edzontar]

86. I think we have some real cases here today--Really....

And I don't care anymore if this seems like an attack--this HATE stuff serves nobody, and should be eradicated from this board, IMHO.

[ErasureAcer]

133. Because Clinton lies...it is ok for Dean to lie?

The one with head problems are the people who believe lying is ok.

It is not...and I won't stand for it.

Dean can rot in hell with Bush...where they can tell lies back and forth.

Clinton isn't god...Clinton himself is a liar.

You need to demand more from politicians.

[Scott Lee]

73. I am sure glad I don't believe you are really a DK supporter.

Dennis Kucinich would never use such base and empty gutter talk. I wonder why some of his supporters would?

[edzontar]

108. They wouldn't. If Dennis saw this stuff, he would puke.

nt

[ErasureAcer]

131. believe what you want to believe

if you want to think Dean is telling the truth, which he is not...believe it.

if you want to think I'm not a DK supporter, when in fact I am a DK supporter...believe that as well.

I don't give a damn what you think.

Dean is going to lose...he isn't going to turn out the Democratic Base or swing voters...why would good people like me vote for a liar? We won't.

Bush can have the election...this country is going to hell if it is Dean or Bush.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[vi5]

17. Let me take off my sweater.....

The overheated rhetoric is making it a bit stuffy in here.

[polpilot]

87. super overheated I'd say.

Dean '04...

[edzontar]

89. Time for the HATE BREAK!!!!

Dean as Emmanuel Goldstein.

Let's scream and yell and get all redfaced and pissy because he is beating our candidate.

MWAAAH!!!! MWAAHH!!!!!

[redqueen]

25. We're progressive

So we don't like centrists popping up and declaring themselves to be liberal all of a sudden.

Also, we don't like liars. Got one of those already, thanks.

[stickdog]

26. Frankly, I have a hard time believing many of the responses.

Progressives were marching every week AGAINST the war.

Progressives were SCREAMING for somebody to take on Bush.

The IWR & Patriot Act votes had most progressives thinking Nader was right -- that there is no real difference between Dems & Pubs.

Progressives sadly understand that in the times we live in today that a tough, honest Vermont moderate like Howard Dean or even Jim Jeffords is a breath of fresh air compared to the sad sack load of frightened, sold out, mealy mouth lifer Dems who let a crew of neocon imperialists bully them around.

Progressives also understand that Dean has figured out how to make campaign finance reform actually work by encouraging mass activism -- another progressive ideal.

If you folks weren't telling me otherwise, I'd have you pegged as establishment Democrats fully content with the corporate gamed status quo.

[redqueen]

30. Here's the difference

We're judging him by his record.

You're judging him by his rhetoric.

[stickdog]

109. Dammit. WE NEED DEAN'S RHETORIC!

The fact that he's actually a moderate shows just how radical Bush is.

We need somebody to tell it like it is.

Yes, Kucinich's rhetoric is just as good, but for whatever reason, the message wasn't getting through.

And Dean's record is a record of responsible, positive, achievable, liberal governance. Is that some sort of mortal sin in your political world?

[no name no slogan]

120. Dean's as liberal as Jesse Ventura

Ventura governmed Minnesota exactly like the Repubs that came before and after him: cut programs, pissed off the liberals, cozied up to big business, and angered environmentalists. But, since Jesse was pro-choice, he really wasn't a conservative then, right?

I REFUSE to support the evil of two lessors AGAIN this year, when we have a candidate whose record and rhetoric put him head and shoulders above the Politicians. I held my nose in '92, and I am NOT looking forward to doing the same in '04 under the guise of "winning"-- ESPECIALLY considering the "victory" of Clinton/Gore.

I will not vote for somebody out of "fear" of the alternative. I WILL vote for somebody out of the HOPE that he can help make this country a better place.

Dean doesn't represent a change from the status quo-- a status quo which is fUx0r3D beyond belief. Kucinich does. That's why I'll support him to the end.

[stickdog]

129. Dude, most Republicans from VT are more liberal than the Body.

But I guess you thought that was clever, huh?

DK represents a lot of good things. Unfortunately, he also represents about 2% of the current unenlightened voting public.

Meanwhile, Dean is a huge step in the right direction compared to Bush, and his insurgent style campaign will hopefully pave the way for candidates like DK very soon. But it just ain't happening this year, and if you don't know that already, I really feel sorry for you.

[ErasureAcer]

136. earth to stick

"liberal governance"

DEAN ISN'T A FUCKING LIBERAL.

He said so himself.

He wasn't a "liberal" governor.

WAKE UP!

[stickdog]

148. YOU are telling ME to wake up? Dean isn't Bush. In fact, he's

more liberal (and he has more integrity) than Clinton.

So tell me all about your obsessive hatred of Bill Clinton. Because otherwise, I'm going to consider your responses for what they are worth.

[redqueen]

145. Liberal governance?

Sorry, but our perceptions of Dean's record in VT are strikingly different. I would never call his governance liberal, not by a long shot. I would call it centrist at best.

[vi5]

31. You do realize that Dean didn't actually VOTE against the war..

Kucinich actually had a vote to cast and he cast it. I'm not a Dennis supporter but if you want anti-war purity then he is someone who put his money where his mouth was.

And again, for the umpteenth time why can't someone be against the war but not insist that it be the only issue that they base a candidates liberal credentials on?

[worldgonekrazy]

46. Good point

And it is one I make time and time again, even as a Dean supporter. However, Kucinich simply cannot win and to be brutally honest I have it on pretty good authority he was a pretty shitty Mayor of Cleveland (so how he could make a good President is beyond me).

So that pretty much leaves Dean because Clark is full of shit when he says he wouldn't have voted for the IWR. Dean said it from the start and he was consistent on it.

But there are many other reasons to like Dean too. Pretty much everything he says (yes even those "controversial" statements like saying we ought to respect the Rule of Law) rings true to me. Maybe he is saying it because he knows it is what I want to hear, but I tend to believe we've got a bona-fide populist on our hands. Remember, a populist is not a fringe liberal (like myself) because the populace is not.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

50. He said he did.

"I'm the only major candidate running, who's in reasonably good shape in the polls, who voted “No” on the Iraq Resolution."
Howard Dean in a prepared speech to the America's Future Campaign, 6/23/03

[Scott Lee]

78. You had to have been elected to Congress to do that.

Which Dean wasn't. He was busy being a Governor.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[edzontar]

41. You do a profound disservice to a fine candidate and patriot:

Dennis Kucinich, with a post like this.

This is very immature behavior.

[stickdog]

116. How do you feel about Bill Clinton?

Just wondering.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[curse10]

42. oh yes

we don't support the mighty Dean, so we are insane basket cases, infantile, and not progressive. Nice! :thumbsup:

[edzontar]

47. Have you read some of these posts?

A numebr of them are pretty silly, stupid, and counterproductive, don't you think?

I would guess that not all of them even come from supporters of the candidates whose names or images they display as avatars....they are certainly doing more harm than good to the candidates they claim to support.

[curse10]

60. And I could say the same thing about the post that started this thread

silly, stupid, and counterproductive.

[edzontar]

83. I didn't see references to "Hate" and "Lying" and "never Voting"

In that post--did you?

How can you defend this lunacy?

Do you think this helps Clark?

[stickdog]

124. Except you'd be wrong. I'm on the West Coast. Kerry has no special

cache here.

If it's different in your neck of the woods, please feel free to explain.

But I posted a honest observation about the difference between the pro-DK progressives I work with out here and those who populate this message board.

[corporatewhore]

44. I'd Rather Sell Out for Kerry

Dean aint a progressive Kerry is more progressive than dean.He is also more environmentally friendly and less NRA friendly than dean. I dont like dean or kerry that much becuase their stance on free trade I could go on and on about how dean is not a liberal and i think he is an oppertunistic hypocrite and so on but what reallygets me is how decpeptive and misleading he is.He is arrogant and painted himself as gods gift to liberalism.

Let it be known that i fully intend to vote kucinich come my states primary but if i was forced to vote for some one else(in dem primary) it would probably be kerry.

[corporatewhore]

51. kerry also didnt have a rich boys cop out

durring vietnam I fully respect concientious objectors and but dont respect concientious skiers

[killbotfactory]

67. Yeah, What a jerk, that Dean..

Following the law and reporting to the draft board.

Why didn't he lie to get in?

Jerk!

[edzontar]

88. How old were YOU during Vietnam?

What do YOU know about it?

JEEZ.

[redqueen]

75. I agree

As a progressive, my 2nd choice is Kerry.

[corporatewhore]

93. just for the record

I think all cannidates are corporate whores save for sharpton and kucinich

[stickdog]

130. Mission accomplished. (nt)

[TeacherCreature]

54. some of them are not DK supporters at all

I know a few genuine DK supporters are mad at Dean for stealing their thunder. But I will bet that several people sporting DK graphics are just trying to outflank Dean on the left with the purity argument.
Weirder things happen around here.

[corporatewhore]

63. i am mad at dean not for stealin thunder

but for bein a liar

[jumptheshadow]

57. The Clark supporters I've met are quite progressive

Most of them work in the international community, have spouses or partners who were born overseas, and are blessed with a nuanced knowledge of global politics and cultures.

Clark's attraction for them is his deep and sophisticated knowledge and experience in the international realm.

With the world on the brink, it's deeply important to have a president who has an exceptionally strong foreign policy resume.

Dean doesn't qualify, and his thin-skinned, arrogant temperment won't be much of an improvement in the diplomatic realm from Bush's.

[no name no slogan]

59. Pat Robertson ran a grassroots campaign in 1988

...and I am fairly certain that the ex-Rev Pat is no progressive. :eyes:

Just because a candidate runs a "grassroots" campaign DOES NOT mean s/he is "progressive".

Dean's current platform (and his past record as Governor) are anything BUT progressive. He cut benefits for the poor to balance the state budget-- although he was not required by law to do so.

He supported shipping toxic waste to poor people in Texas.

He cozied up to Big Energy and took campaign contributions from them, too. IBM, one of the largest corporate polluters in the nation, said they "basically got whatever [we] want" while Dean was governor.

Dean alienated so many progressive Democrats that he barely got 50% of the vote in his last re-election-- while the progressive Dems joined with other leftists to form a viable 3rd party.

If Dean is elected, we'll still have NAFTA, the WTO, the "war on drugs", a for-profit healthcare system, no controls on corporate power, AND a president who believes it's okay to have a bloated, out-of-control Pentagon budget at the expense of saving our cities and schools from ruin.

This is hardly the stance of a "progressive". In any other decade, it would be that of a Republican.

[bread_and_roses]

112. You said it

...that about sums up where I am on this...I cannot see his record as in any way Progressive, though I admire his willingness to oppose this PARTICULAR insane war.

[Duder]

71. A lot of the 'known' long-time progressives...

...have endorsed Howard Dean.

I'm more impressed by them then I am some of the self-proclaimed progressive trash talking sore-losers here.

[redqueen]

Care to name a few?

(waiting to guffaw after Gore is mentioned)

[Duder]

90. Good question

We should put a list together. A few I consider, off the top of my head:

Jim McDermott
John Conyers
Molly Ivins
Paul Newman

[no name no slogan]

96. Nice list, but ours has more progressives

Howard Zinn
Barbara Ehrenreich
Willy Nelson (organizes FarmAid)
Pete Seeger
Dr. Patch Adams
Studs Terkel
Danny Glover
Ed Asner
Ben Cohen
Arun Ghandi (grandson of Mohandas Ghandi)
Richard Stallman (creator of the GNU project, which Linux is based on)

But I'm sure you knew that already!

[edzontar]

105. I haven't heard any expressions of HATE from them...

But then, these are rational, grown-up people, aren't they?

But look out, some of your allies say they HATE Dean because he is a "leftist," and that llst of fine people you posted is crawling with them!!

[corporatewhore]

106. You forgot

Winona Laduke (naders running mate)
David Cobb (green party cannidate in "safe states" said if kucinich gets the ticket he would drop out endorse raise money and support for him)
Jello Biafra (while hasnt offically endorsed has said hes god see sig line)

[revcarol]

114. And don't forget Granny D...

positive vibes only come from her...

[edzontar]

118. I wish some of that positive attitude would rub off

On some of the despicable excuses for posts i have seen on this thread today.

[Duder]

122. I love Granny D!

A couple of endorsement lists for those interested in picking out progressives:

http://www.blacksfordean.com/endorsements.htm

http://www.netstats2000.com/deandocs/docs/dean_endorsements.pdf

[edzontar]

80. This is ONE sorry collection of posts here today...

I must say....Kucinich deserves a lot better than the idiocies advanced in his cause by some here.

[dolstein]

121. I'm a progressive, and I like Lieberman, Clark and Edwards

It's a shame that so many people have come to associate progressivism with pacifism. FDR was no pacifist. Neither was Truman. Or Kennedy. Progressivism existed long before George McGovern.

[killbotfactory]

123. I support Dean and am no a pacifist

But I don't find it particularly progressive to support an unnecessary and idiotic war. I wish that opposing stupid wars wasn't always confused with being pacifistic or McGovernish.

[stickdog]

134. Yeah! I think all of us neocon imperialists need to take back

the word "progressive" for ourselves!

"What the world needs now is war sweet war ... "

[no name no slogan]

140. LOL

sing it Burt, sing it! :D

[mitchum]

125. Because he is a "fiscally conservative" moderate...

and that is reason enough to oppose him.

[stickdog]

137. Why? Have you gotten addicted to 5% annual Republican

credit card government growth?

Isn't it critical to practice a little fiscal responsibility before Social Security & Medicare go broke on us? Don't we need universal healthcare in the worst way?

[kerry-is-my-prez]

135. Stop falling for campaign rhetoric. Here's the truth about Dean's record:

Dean is very conservative. He is very far to the right when it come to issues such as criminal justice, drugs, and just about everything except the war in Iraq and civil unions. Even in those areas – he has not always been 100%.

he's against medical marijauna,

he does not support the Kyoto Treaty,

supports NAFTA,

after the terrorist attacks he said he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties,"

he fought against having methadone clinics in Vermont (they all had to go to neighboring states),

he's against Affirmative Action,

he sided with the Republicans in Congress (against the Democrats) to support their draconian Medicare bill),

drastically increased funding for prisons and prosecutors (some reports say as much as 150%) and drastically decreased it to Criminal Defense attorneys,

he told a group of defense attorneys that "My job is to make your jobs as tough as possible,"

says that Criminal Defendants get all the breaks,

stated that he "wanted to appoint to the Vermont Supreme Court a justice who would consider "common sense more important than legal technicalities" and "quickly convict guilty criminals (he’s appointed conservative Republican judges over moderate Democratic ones).

said on at least one public occasion that the state should spend less money providing the accused with legal representation, saying that "95% of criminal defendants are guilty anyway,

is buddies with all of the energy companies in Vermont (Enron and Halliburton among them) "Nearly a fifth of the roughly $111,000 collected in its first months by Dean’s presidential PAC came from people with ties to Vermont’s electric utilities,

his tax policies in Vermont favored the wealthy at the expense of the poor (the poorest fifth of Vermont non-elderly taxpayers—paid 10% of their income in Vermont state and local taxes, one and half times the share the wealthiest Vermonters pay),

tried to turn down funding for low income mentally ill defendants,

stated that "welfare reform has been an incredibly positive force. Vermont was the first state in the nation to institute welfare reform, and we’ve had great success with it,"

said some welfare recipients "don't have any self-esteem. If they did, they'd be working" and scaled back Vermont's welfare program, reducing cash benefits and imposing strict time limits on single mothers receiving welfare assistance.

he now supports an embargo against Cuba (now that he realizes he needs the Cuban vote in Florida),

wants to increase defense spending,

Dean and the legislature made sure that snowmobiling was included as one of the permitted activities in the protected region of the Champion Land preserve in Vermont (the snowmobilers org. received hundreds of thousands of dollars every year from Vermont’s Agency of Natural Resources (ANR), all under the guise of “environmental improvement funds (they're very powerful ya know),

opposed state recognition for the Abenaki tribe,

many environmentalists from Vermont were VERY unhappy with him (not just one or two but MANY) for the way he favored corporations and developers over environmentalists

he supports the death penalty,

he has an "A" rating from the NRA,

he says he agrees with AIPAC (over the APN - a more Progressive organization),

basically thinks that protestors are criminals, disagreed when the free Mumia protestors were let off

Use of the trespass statute as a tool to silence dissent has become commonplace in Dean’s tenure in Vermont and that practice is currently before the federal courts as an unconstitutionally over-broad restriction on First Amendment rights.

has announced his support for a policy in which Washington will decide which countries are allowed to have nuclear weapons and will reserve for itself the right to forcefully disarm those who do not voluntarily disarm by U.S. dictate. In this crucial regard Dean's position is in close accordance with the Bush doctrine of coercive disarmament and preventive war.

And you're asking ME a Progressive Democrat who has taken the time to read up on the issues, has taken the time to look at Dean ACTUAL record, rather than just listening to his phony rhetoric, why I would support Clark????

You need to do some reading up on this candidate.

[stickdog]

139. I've read both sides of every one sided accusation you cut & pasted.

One question.

Why did your President endorse Howard Dean?

[kerry-is-my-prez]

144. So he can get the Dean supporters to support him in '08 or '12

Gore can be a political opportunist when he needs to be. I'm not happy with his decision - but he is a politician so I'm not entirely surprised. I'm never surprised at what ANY politican does in the name of politics....

[clarknyc]

150. I'm curious

And you're asking ME a Progressive Democrat who has taken the time to read up on the issues, has taken the time to look at Dean ACTUAL record, rather than just listening to his phony rhetoric, why I would support Clark????


Just what resource(s) did you use "to look at Dean ACTUAL record"?

[killbotfactory]

152. My guesses...

NRO.com
counterpunch.com
worldnetdaily.com
kucinich.us
johnkerry.com
antiwar.com
angrycurmudgeonwhohateseverybody.com

[clarknyc]

155. Yeah

angrycurmudgeonwhohateseverybody.com

They're the best!

[LWolf]

142. My take:

Dean pissed off a lot of progressives; not by running a well-organized, energized campaign, but by underhanded campaign tactics.

Of course, as a DK supporter, I take that a little more personally than some. Dean has campaigned as if Dennis didn't exist from the very beginning. The bottom line here, for me, is that Dean started long before Dennis; he wasn't governing or practicing medicine while he campaigned. Dennis came in later, because tens of thousands of people asked him to. And he didn't give up his day job to campaign. Find me another rep in the house or the senate, campaigning or not, with a better attendance record. He's been representing his constituents and democratic values first, then campaigning.
That shouldn't have made him invisible; it's an honorable reason to campaign at a more measured pace.

Then there is the aggressive, less than civil tactics displayed by some Dean campaigners. It reminds some progressives of Republican/bully tactics; yell first, louder, and longer, and it doesn't matter if it is true. Deride the opposition as "unelectable," and other inaccurate rhetoric, rather than face them on the issues.

Then there was the honesty thing; the "I'm the only...." which was patently false. And excused by Dean supporters. And swept under the carpet with a tongue-in-cheek explanation and pseudo-apology. Only to come right back and do it again further down the road.

All of that leaves some of us angry, and less likely to support Dean. We don't trust him. We perceive his campaign to be dirty.

That aside, we see that this emperor's progressive suit doesn't exist. I don't think he's progressive. I think he has ridden a wave of perception, but I don't think his record or platform back that up. And he has said so himself:

Dean told Salon (Feb 19, 2003): "I don't mind being characterized as 'liberal' -- I just don't happen to think it's true."

He got that part right; it's not true. But he also indicated his willingness to campaign on an image that isn't true.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

146. Dean's mother: "I hope (his supporters) don't find out quite yet "

“Asked whether her son is a liberal, Dean’s mother told Cloud, “He’s not really...I just hope they don’t find that out just yet.” http://www.time.com/time/style/printout/0,8816,472817,00.html

[killbotfactory]

149. How many times does Dean have to say he's centrist...

Before people understand?

Dean supporters know he's centrist. That's one reason why we we support him. That's why he has so much support in the democratic party. That's why he's going to win.

You don't win the nomination by pandering to the extreme left of your party, as Kucinich is finding out.

[stickdog]

157. Thanks for the honest post. I get the feeling that this is how DK

himself feels about Dean. But I personally wish they could team up somehow as they are far and away my two favorite candidates.

IMHO, DK is just too big of a target for the Republican hate machine.

Meanwhile, Dean can insulate himself from those same attacks with his less-than-progressive VT political record.

It works for me personally because, to me, the scariest thing about the last three years was the fact that everybody was afraid to even say that the emperor had no clothes.

Because of this, I'm drawn to the strongest anti-Bush rhetoric possible as an end in itself, and Dean's comparatively centrist governing record allows him to go for the jugular concerning Bush's radical and radically wrong administration without allowing Bush the same sort of counter punch.

[BootinUp]

147. Several problems I have

with your post.

First, I am sick and tired of the attitude that each democratic congressman doesn't have his/her own mind, that its the DLC's fault. This is nonsense, each congressman voted their consience whether you agree with their vote or not. And they are accountable to their constituents, they are not all accountable to S.F. and Portland. The rest of America has a vote just like San Fran.

Second, I definitely disagree with your characterization of Clark and his campaign. We are a grassroots campaign, you need to deal with that because when the fourth qtr fundraising comes out there will not be any question about it.

Third, I hope you will allow that not everyone agrees with you without resorting to humiliating people and veiled suggestions that some of us don't belong here and must be loons or something.

[clarknyc]

153. Some things are self-evident

Third, I hope you will allow that not everyone agrees with you without resorting to humiliating people and veiled suggestions that some of us don't belong here and must be loons or something.

I think principled, spirited, and even harsh disagreement is fine. However, the "loon" posts are self-evident.

YMMV

[Moderator]

158. Locking.......

1. If you start a thread in the General Discussion forum, you must present your opinion in a manner that is not inflammatory, which respects differences in opinion, and which is likely to lead to respectful discussion rather than flaming. Some examples of things which should generally be avoided are: unnecessarily hot rhetoric, nicknames for prominent Democrats or their supporters, broad-brush statements about groups of people, single-sentence "drive-by" thread topics, etc.



DU Moderator