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I promised to take a closer look at Obama's statements and record

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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:12 PM
Original message
I promised to take a closer look at Obama's statements and record
What I found is interesting, and I think coming from the POV of someone who can't stand him personally, maybe it will be helpful to others. As preamble, let me say I have always been convinced the Obamarama is mostly about a credulous reception of his rhetoric, but he -is- more complex than just that. On the whole his personal history is most inspiring before he became a serious political figure, with his dabbling in community activism, constitutional law, electoral law, etc. His candidacy against Bobby Rush initiates the period where I become less and less impressed with Obama, but that doesn't mean there aren't many good things there.

According to some local knowledgeable folks, that's where the "hope" thing really kicked off. Dan Shomon called it as "There was a gradual progression of Barack Obama from thoughtful, earnest policy wonk/civil rights lawyer/constitutional law expert to Barack Obama the politician, the inspirer, the speaker." His friend Denny Jacobs also sees it that way: “He stumbled on the fact that instead of running on all the issues, quote unquote, that hope is the real key,” he said. “Not only the black community but less privileged people are looking for that hope. You don’t have to talk about health care, you have to talk about ‘the promise’ of health care. Hope is a pretty inclusive word. I think he is very good at selling that.”

This is what inspires such figures as Tucker Carlson to say "I feel impressed by his inclusive tone. I don’t think he hates me for my ideas and I appreciate that." This sort of "framing" or "marketing" is in my view insulting to voters and degrading for the candidate, but it -works- in this atmosphere. It wins elections.

But I've talked enough about my views on his rhetoric elsewhere. The key issues--where is he at? Mostly he makes good votes, but often it's difficult to pin down his actual beliefs from his rhetoric. Especially on the most controversial issues. I'll take just one to start:

On the war:

Not too bad! Almost Howard Dean good, in the beginning. The case -wasn't- made and it -was- a dumb war, and it's good that Obama recognized it in 2002, when such recognition mattered most. He noted specifically the reality that the "war" would likely be won, yet the aftermath was likely to be an intractable quagmire--wisdom for which he didn't require "experience" in anything other than common sense. Of the major candidates, he has the best record for the authorization period.

His statements condemning the famed $87 billion funding vote are rather at odds with his consistent later votes for funding in the Senate, however. He never "promised" not to vote for funding, however. I would certainly rather he not support these funds.

The "I don't know how I would have voted" in later reference to IWR is not as bad as it sounds given the context of supporting Kerry, and especially since it's reasonable--it's hard to claim with certainty that you'd act a certain way when not bombarded by the same pressures and misinformation that influenced Congress at the time (though neither excuses a "yes" vote on IWR). Ideally he would note that such a resolution put far too much power in the hands of the president, but for a mainstream pol it's not too bad or shocking.

I do take issue with some of his statements, however. Obama did say: “The Democrats have been stuck in the arguments of Vietnam, which means that either you’re a Scoop Jackson Democrat or you’re a Tom Hayden Democrat and you’re suspicious of any military action. And that’s just not my framework.” This misrepresents the full anti-war position on Iraq, and brings up the ugly Vietnam mythology that opposition to that war was suspicion of any military action. In doing he sets up two undesirable extremes to create a reasonable-sounding "middle" position, and I don't care for it.

He also backs the Baker-Hamilton Study Group, which supports leaving thousands of troops in Iraq to ostensibly combat terrorists and train Iraqi forces. This is essentially a plausibly deniable continuance of the occupation--so long as American military forces are the cornerstone of security and have license to eliminate enemies of our interests, Iraq is still under occupation.

He also distanced himself from Murtha's strong call to end the war. In his speech to the Council of Foreign Relations during that time, he said: "we need to focus our attention on how to reduce the U.S. military footprint in Iraq. Notice that I say 'reduce,' and not 'fully withdraw.'" This is rather vague and leaves lots of wiggle room. Obama is against permanent military bases in Iraq, but beyond that he has made no commitment to wholly leave Iraq in any sort of timely fashion. A drawdown even in those terms, however, naturally is superior to what we currently have.

To keep this thread from getting too long (it's extremely long already), I'll post what I've researched about his stances on other crucial issues in the days ahead.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. I don't want a reduction in US troops in Iraq. I want it done, over, out.
So this is not my guy it seems.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Which candidate is promising what you want?
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Edwards and Clinton both promise this.
Obama does not.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Right. And therein lies my distrust.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. Yep mine too.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. When did Clinton start promising this?
back when Richardson was in the debates I understood that only he and Kucinich were promising complete withdrawal of troops from Iraq within a year or less. Clinton certainly wasn't saying it then.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. "Clinton promises this"
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Unless you're saying she's going to end the Iraq war because those soldiers are needed to invade Iran, then..

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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joeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. no kidding n/t
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Mojambo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
2. Very much looking forward to future installments. Recommended. n/t
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
3. You lost me with this:
"... dabbling in community activism, constitutional law, "

Your bias against him is so strong you can't stop from belittling him. Obama spent 8 years as first a community activist and then a civil rights lawyer, and taught Con law for a decade at the U of C, and was offered a full professorship.

I didn't bother reading the rest of your piece.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. You read "dabbling" as pejorative? It wasn't intended that way.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. dabbling is always a perjorative. You didn't know that?
You know better than that. Please see definition number 3.

Verb 1. dabble - dip a foot or hand briefly into a liquid
dip, dunk, souse, douse, plunge - immerse briefly into a liquid so as to wet, coat, or saturate; "dip the garment into the cleaning solution"; "dip the brush into the paint"
2. dabble - play in or as if in water, as of small children
splash around, paddle
play - be at play; be engaged in playful activity; amuse oneself in a way characteristic of children; "The kids were playing outside all day"; "I used to play with trucks as a little girl"
3. dabble - work with in an amateurish manner; "She dabbles in astronomy"; "He plays around with investments but he never makes any money"
smatter, play around
busy, occupy - keep busy with; "She busies herself with her butterfly collection
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. It's just Cali...
jpgray. Your post is a very insightful piece of investigative work. As to DU's most insulting poster, play the game we all love called: "THATS JUST CALI".

Here you get a wonderful opportunity to see the world through slime-tinted glasses, where anyone deemed contrarian to her inflexible point of view is castigated, usually with food references ( cupcake ).

If Cali is upset, it means your post was a good one. :)
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shaniqua6392 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
4. Thank you for sharing your research.
I look forward to more. It is refreshing to see a reasonable breakdown on a candidate.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
6. Nobody has ever produced this kind of propaganda against Edwards
You guys are really beyond believe.

Murtha supported an over the horizon force in Iraq too, he didn't call for a full and instantaneous withdrawal either. Most people never bother to read the fine details of what anybody is proposing and just run off at the mouth of whatever they believe is being said.

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Metric System Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Wow, you Obama supporters are sensitive. n/t
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. Ahhh sandnsea
is also at it again.

Obamination, thy name is HYPOCRISY.

Frolic by the sandnsea and watch this poster reflexively fail to defend his candidate with policy refutation, but instead, always respond with a NON-SEQUITUR against......JOHN EDWARDS!

See how this poster raises suspicion as the emptiness of his candidate's positions, because he always fails to articulate one, as an appropriate response.

Fun N Games with sandnsea!
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TheDebbieDee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
7. I think the thing that is most disturbing to me about "Obamarama"
is that after all I have seen in the last 7 years, after all that has gone on in the world, I have developed an even deeper distaste for the mixing of religion and politics.

If I want to hear about hope, I'll go to church. If I want to feel better about myself, I'll go to a self-help seminar.

As far as I'm concerned, "Obamarama" is all about the sheeplization of the Democratic Party.

And I refuse to be anybody's fool........er, uh, sheep.
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Nailzberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
8. Perhaps mark them as journal entries, in case we aren't around when you post them.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
15. Thank you. I had forgotten about that "extremist", Tom Hayden...but then again
Edited on Mon Jan-28-08 08:45 PM by robbedvoter
he's not that invested in the fights of the 60's and the 70's - so, Reagan was right to call them excesses.
A thoughtful piece.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
16. To aid in your research, this is a little gem I found today:
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Surprise....NOT!
A rabid Obama poster when confronted with irrefutable evidence of their favorite candidate's lapse from the mantra of hope, or in keeping ALWAYS "on message", will invariably LINK you to some article, which for them articulates a point NOT MADE.

Call it a refutation by surrogate link, if you will.

Always guranteed to keep you guessing, because it is riddled with subjective comments or glib and unarticulated specifics.

Specifics! The green kryptonite of Obama Nation.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Too bad I can see you now; I forgot how obnoxious you are. nt
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. On point you mean
Sorry if I'm able to articulate a point of view. I don't roll over so easily. :)
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-28-08 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. It's a really delicate balance, and Obama is light-years ahead of Lieberman in striking it
Edited on Mon Jan-28-08 09:04 PM by jpgray
And while the idea of not compromising at -all- has some favor here (and it should on some issues), the right sort of compromise/marketing can get moderate conservatives backing progressive policy. It's a strategy the GOP has used time and again to divide Democrats to pass bad policy, and if used with integrity it could divide the GOP to pass -good- policy. I have my differences with Obama's efforts sometimes on framing an issue (McClurkin, Reagan, Iraq, etc.) but I won't dismiss it wholly as a strategy because it can be a very necessary one.
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twenty4blackbirds Donating Member (418 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 02:24 AM
Response to Original message
25. Thanks jpgray
:applause: Thanks for the analysis. Very well done, and I appreciate it.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 02:28 AM
Response to Original message
26. I appreciate your work AND your take on this! I hope I won't miss your later posts -
because I've been in and out of here for the past week or so and looks like that's gonna continue for a little while.

Very cool!

Thanks!
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-29-08 02:54 AM
Response to Original message
28. Can we get some links so we can review some dates on this stuff?
And just remember that Edwards didn't "apologize" until November of 2005.

Thanks! :hi:
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