Why is it so hard to accept that Hillary may be a great leader?

[Mezzo]

Is it possible, just possible, that the reason people see greatness in her is because there IS greatness in her?

I am so tired of being told I am undemocratic if I want someone other than Obama. And, really, since there is very little difference between their voting records, this is a race for First Lady. I say, "Bill for First Lady". Why can't I do that without being ostracized by Obama supporters?

Just titting for tatting.... :)

[BlackVelvet04]

1. She can't possibly be a great leader....

no penis. Only those with a noodley appendage can be great leaders.

;)

[GarbagemanLB]

6. Obama supporters sexist? Guess you guys are racist, then.

[BlackVelvet04]

9. You have a noodly appendage, don't you? n/t

[GarbagemanLB]

11. A damn big one, at that.

}(

[BlackVelvet04]

12. That's what they all say. n/t

[emilyg]

15. If you brag - you don't.

[1awake]

18. HA!

noodley appendage.. made me chuckle.

I think Hillary would make a good leader, appendage or not. Only thing my appendage has really ever done, is convince me to make acouple poor decisions. ;)

[BlackVelvet04]

22. LOL....

you need to keep a tight reign on that sucker or it'll get you in trouble every time. ;-)

[civildisoBDence]

51. Emphasis on the "noodly" part, sadly

You know who's loving this HC/BO internecine war?

Republicans.

Newsprism

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

19. Key Clinton Backer Guilty in Sibel Edmonds Case

Its because of stuff like this:

Key Clinton Backer Guilty in Sibel Edmonds Case
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2856579

[Yossariant]

28. I can't find any there, there. It says somebody is guilty, but never says of what or

what he's charged with doing or convicted of doing.

:shrug:

[gorekerrydreamticket]

30. Deleted

[rodeodance]

44. set set bar!

Only those with a noodley appendage can be great leaders.

[anigbrowl]

56. ...if she can't run a great campaign.

And she hasn't.

I so don't care about the fact that she is a woman. There are several excellent lady Dem governors around the country and I hope one of them will run for President in future.

[Tennessee Gal]

68. LOL!

"noodley appendage"

:rofl:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. Her vote for the IWR.

[GarbagemanLB]

7. plus her miscalculations in her campaign show poor decision-making ability.

[blm]

3. Would a truly GREAT leader protect the Bushes as much as Clintons do?

http://consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html

[Bicoastal]

4. She IS a great leader...

....and Obama's a better one. :)

[wndycty]

5. Its not hard to accept, but I also accept that Obama will be an even better one

:kick:

[Perry Logan]

8. Because they have never seen Hillary mentioned without someone sticking his finger down his throat?

Laying misogyny aside, the problem is mostly ascribable to an insanely-biased media. If you hear that much hatred directed against someone for that many years, it's bound to become part of your mental furniture.

[RC]

10. It is not her leadership abilities that are in question

It is her stance on the issues. Why is that so hard to accept?

[ihavenobias]

14. Well...both actually

Although I'd like to have seen Obama lead yesterday, *at least* he voted the right way unlike Hillary (who abstained on a critical issue):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x92907

PS---Notice that the link includes 2 other clips that are incredibly fair to Hillary, including this one about how the media hates her: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmM2j8P55SA

[Yossariant]

34. Obama did not vote on the FISA bill, despite the fact that he was in DC..

He stopped by to vote on the anti-immunity amendment which failed, *coincidentally* by the same margin that passed the actual bill.

"Both Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton missed the final FISA vote today -- they were the only Senators, along with Sen. Graham, to miss it. It occurred between 5:30 p.m. and 6 p.m. The vote was 68 to 29, so it wouldn't have mattered had they been there. Both were present to vote with Sen. Dodd against cloture a few weeks ago and Obama was present this morning to vote on the Amendment."
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/2/12/224018/154


The vote was never in doubt.

February 12, 2008

Statement of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton on the FISA Amendments Act of 2007

"I believe we need to modernize our surveillance laws and give our nation’s intelligence professionals the tools they need to fight terrorism and to make our country more secure. At the same time, smart, balanced reform must also protect the rights and civil liberties of Americans. In my opinion, the FISA Amendments Act of 2007 falls short of these goals, and for that reason, I oppose the bill.

As I have maintained for months, I oppose the provision contained in the bill that grants blanket retroactive immunity to telecommunications companies that allegedly cooperated in the administration's warrantless wiretapping program. I believe granting retroactive immunity under these circumstances is wrong and undermines accountability. To that end, I have supported and cosponsored Senator Dodd’s strong efforts to strip this provision from the FISA bill, and was discouraged to see the amendment fail by such a significant margin.

Over the past seven years, the Bush Administration has blatantly and systematically disregarded Americans' civil liberties. It cannot be trusted to protect Americans’ privacy rights. That is why I strongly believe we need to pass balanced legislation that protects our civil liberties and the rule of law while giving our law enforcement and intelligence agencies the tools they need to protect our country."

[ihavenobias]

50. 1 for 2 is better than 0 for 2

And the video clip actually points out that Obama didn't lead on this issue as he could and should have either.

[Yossariant]

54. As far as the Senate is concerned, it is and has been a non-issue. Appears Barack doesn't keep up.

except with the photo ops.

February 12, 2008

Statement of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton on the FISA Amendments Act of 2007


"I believe we need to modernize our surveillance laws and give our nation’s intelligence professionals the tools they need to fight terrorism and to make our country more secure. At the same time, smart, balanced reform must also protect the rights and civil liberties of Americans. In my opinion, the FISA Amendments Act of 2007 falls short of these goals, and for that reason, I oppose the bill.

As I have maintained for months, I oppose the provision contained in the bill that grants blanket retroactive immunity to telecommunications companies that allegedly cooperated in the administration's warrantless wiretapping program. I believe granting retroactive immunity under these circumstances is wrong and undermines accountability. To that end, I have supported and cosponsored Senator Dodd’s strong efforts to strip this provision from the FISA bill, and was discouraged to see the amendment fail by such a significant margin.

Over the past seven years, the Bush Administration has blatantly and systematically disregarded Americans' civil liberties. It cannot be trusted to protect Americans’ privacy rights. That is why I strongly believe we need to pass balanced legislation that protects our civil liberties and the rule of law while giving our law enforcement and intelligence agencies the tools they need to protect our country."

[anigbrowl]

57. If it's a non-issue, why did you bring it up?

It reflects poorly on Senator Clinton when you use lies an innuendo to score political points, then back away from your assertions when they are still sitting there for everyone reading DU to see how silly they are.

[Yossariant]

59. # 14 comes before # 34.

:crazy:

[ihavenobias]

58. A "non-issue"

I think it's a failure on BOTH their parts that neither took leadership of the issue and RALLIED their fellow Democrats in the Senate. That's what I expect from my leaders, that they at least TRY.

But again, 1 for 2 is better than 0 for 2, even of the o for 2 candidate releases a strong *statement* on the issue.

Also, as it says in the clip, shouldn't Clinton be expected to be the one who stands up the Republicans (that is what she always claims she'll do right, and has since the beginning)? If so, this would have been a great time to do it. Garbage excuses about not having enough votes are just that, garbage excuses. I'm disappointed in BOTH Obama and Hillary but more-so in Hillary for the aforementioned reasons.

[Yossariant]

60. I notice that your thread, which you linked, does not mention any failure on "both their parts."

There are no "aforementioned REASONS." You are developing your OPINIONS to fit your own ill-informed or deliberately misleading thread.

~ Ill-informed being the most charitable interpretation.

Have fun.

[ihavenobias]

61. Then you didn't watch the video clip

and that's not *my* fault: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exNIlIsI6Rg&feature=user

And of course those are my opinions and reasons based on my interpretation of the facts of the matter. Are you suggesting you have some other magical system for reviewing information and coming to conclusions?

[Yossariant]

62. You are responsible for the words you type and

you chose to post your thread title, "Hillary Let Us Down Once Again."

It is deceptive.

You need a new handle.

[ihavenobias]

64. Spare me the lecture please

and step down from your high horse for a moment. I chose that thread title because it was the title of the clip on YouTube.

Also, my username carries what should be an *obvious* implicit wink. There is NO ONE on earth that doesn't have *some* level of bias. The question is how much they can try to control it.

[Yossariant]

65. Ah! If people talk long enough, they will likely find some point of agreement, like we just did.

:)

[KittyWampus]

13. Her fucked up campaign which ignored many "smaller" states and had no plan B

[stahbrett]

23. Exactly! She is in charge of her own campaign, and it's been run horribly (eom)

[izquierdista]

16. Maybe......

because she led her great big national health plan right into the right-wing buzz-saw?? :shrug:

[Mezzo]

21. *SHE did, did she? That's just silly

wow, I guess Laura Bush should be held accountable for the library closings then....

It's silly.

[hedgehog]

35. DOes that mean you're discounting her experience as First Lady?

I thought that the health care plan was her special project.

[PermanentRevolution]

17. I think either one will be fine

Truth be told, I'm not overly-enthusiastic about Hillary OR Obama. My politics generally run so far outside the mainstream that I describe myself as a "leftist" instead of "liberal" or "progressive." I have a hard time truly getting behind any candidate who still supports capitalism as the best and most viable economic system. But I'm also wise enough to know that any elected leader who actually held beliefs as extreme as mine would plunge this country into a civil war within hours of inauguration. So I've resigned myself to continually voting against my core beliefs in the hopes of providing small incremental changes towards a more equitable society. In my eyes the difference between candidates is largely cosmetic since they all support, in varying degrees, the entrenchment of the wealthy and the subjugation of the poor at the hands of a capitalist society and they all represent, in varying degrees, the oligarchy of the rich and powerful that prevents real substantive change from taking root. But I always vote in the end, hoping that each small step forward will do its part in convincing people that a state governed by the principles of socialism is not some big scary boogeyman to be reviled and feared. And as such, I'm fine with Hillary as president. I'm fine with Obama as president. Neither one will be what I want, but both will do some part to make this country better, one tiny step at a time.

[Bread and Circus]

20. Because she screwed up the health initiative in 1993 and has run a horrible campaign.

That's why.

[Indenturedebtor]

24. Because she can speak to the mind

But not the soul. How many policy wonk speeches have been immortalized in history? How many of our great leaders have been known for their ability to make backroom deals and triangulate to the public? None. Why? Because you need the support of the people behind you. She doesn't seem to be doing a very good job at that. Blame the media all you want but Edwards was UTTERLY screwed by the media and I was crazy about his campaign. And no I'm not a chauvenist pig, I just don't like her or her corporate asskissing.

Because she is the DLCs poster child.

Because she's trying to milk racial and gender votes.

Because the country is non too fond of her.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

I'll still vote for her but I really hope I don't have to.

Sorry just being honest, flame on.

[jzodda]

25. She IS a great leader

but so is Obama. So either way we don't lose. Her problem is that she keeps losing, and it looks like she will lose again later this month. Losing again and again and again does not a president make. Even if she wins Texas and Ohio she will probably not take a lead of any significant margin in pledged delegates. She will probably still be behind since those states are proportional like all the rest.

This is going to convention and the "elites" will be deciding our nominee not us, the voters.

[stillcool]

26. Because of her campaign...

It appears she's not too good at managing money...and then there's this:

Clinton Surrogate Compares Obama Ad to Nazi March
http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20080201/cm_thenation/45278988_1
Fri Feb 1, 2:23 PM ET

The Nation -- On a media conference call organized by the Hillary Clinton campaign today, Clinton surrogate Len Nichols compared an Obama health care ad to Nazis. The ad features a couple at a kitchen table, which some Clinton supporters said was reminiscent of "the famous insurance-industry-financed 'Harry and Louise' ads against the original Clinton plan," as The Politico reports, and Mr. Nichols said it "personally outraged" him.


Accusing political opponents of Nazism is an outrageous smear. Raising the specter of a Nazi march in response to a health care mailer that evokes the insurance industry is so absurd, it would be hard to take the attack seriously, were it not launched from a high profile national campaign conference call in this crucial stretch of the presidential race. And political observers know, of course, that the Clinton Campaign regularly arranges opportunities for surrogates to launch these kind of smears, which are later followed up with apologies. (See: Bob Johnson, Bill Shaheen, Bob Kerrey, and Francine Torge, to name the most recent offenders.) For his part, Nichols did not immediately return a call requesting further comment.
-------------------------
Len Nichols, Director of New America's Health Policy Program, stated, "For nearly 17 years I have worked tirelessly to reform our nation's struggling health system. Today my passion overwhelmed me. I chose an analogy that was wholly inappropriate. I am deeply sorry for any offense that my unfortunate comments may have caused. I made unfortunate comments that do not accurately reflect my bipartisan conviction, political philosophy, or most importantly, my opinions about Senator Obama and his historic campaign for the United States presidency."

Clinton adviser steps down after drug use comments
Earlier Thursday, Clinton personally apologized to rival Obama for Shaheen's remarks.
Obama accepted her apology, according to David Axelrod, the top political strategist for the Obama campaign.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/13/clinton.obama/index.html

January 6, 2008, 5:18 pm
Edwards: No Conscience in Clinton Campaign
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/06/edwards-no-conscience-in-clinton-campaign/
By Julie Bosman
KEENE, N.H. – John Edwards angrily took on Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton at two news conferences in a row on Sunday, saying that her campaign “doesn’t seem to have a conscience.”

COMPTON, Calif. (AP) — Hillary Rodham Clinton and her campaign tried to mend ties to black voters Thursday when a key supporter apologized to her chief rival, Barack Obama, for comments that hinted at Obama's drug use as a teenager. The candidate herself, meanwhile, praised the Rev. Martin Luther King and promised to assist with the rebirth of this troubled, largely black city.

Bob Johnson, the founder of Black Entertainment Television, apologized for comments he made at a Clinton campaign rally in South Carolina on Sunday that hinted at Obama's use of drugs as a teenager.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-01-17-johnson-apology_N.htm?csp=34

December 10, 2007
Third Clinton Volunteer Knew Of Smear E-Mail

A third volunteer for Hillary Clinton's campaign was aware of a propaganda e-mail alleging that Barack Obama is a Muslim who plans on "destroying the U.S. from the inside out."

"Let us all remain alert concerning Obama's expected presidential Candidacy," the email reads. "Please forward to everyone you know. The Muslims have said they Plan on destroying the U.S. from the inside out, what better way to start than at The highest level."

Two Clinton volunteers, Linda Olson and Judy Rose, have already been asked to resign from the campaign for their roles in forwarding the e-mail. The AP reported yesterday that Olson, a volunteer coordinator in Iowa County, sent a version of the e-mail to 11 people, including Ben Young, a regional field director for Chris Dodd's campaign. Young passed it on to the AP.
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/hillary_adviser_harold_ickes_t.php

Hillary: Sorry for Any Offense Campaign (Bill) Has Caused
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB65wJ6Rcfs

Bill Clinton Asks for a Second Chance
By Liz Halloran
Posted February 11, 2008

The morning after his wife, Hillary, was routed in three state contests by Sen. Barack Obama in their dead-heat battle for the Democratic nomination, former President Bill Clinton made his case for her before a packed Sunday service at one of the largest black churches in Washington, D.C.
But first he offered an apology of sorts for racially tinged comments he made about Obama and his candidacy that have triggered a backlash in the black community and among many other Democrats.

Clinton invoked his "worship of a God of second chances" in pronouncing himself glad to be at the Temple of Praise, which claims nearly 15,000 members. His invocation of second chances echoed comments he made early last week at black churches in California, where he campaigned for his wife before that state's Super Tuesday primary, which she won.
http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/campaign-2008/2008/02/11/bill-clinton-asks-for-a-second-chance.html

Bill Clinton To Apologize At LA Black Churches
Once again, Bill Clinton is ready to repent.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/02/bill-clinton-to-apologize_n_84573.html
On Sunday the former president is scheduled to visit black churches in South Central Los Angeles, where he's expected to offer a mea culpa to those who "dearly loved him" when he was their president, Rep. Diane Watson (D-Calif.) says.

Watson, a member of the Congressional Black Caucus who has endorsed Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), tells us she'll usher the former president to more than half a dozen churches in her district where she says he needs to "renew his relationship" with congregants who were turned off by his racially tinged comments in the days leading up to and following the South Carolina primary. (Such as when Clinton compared Sen. Barack Obama's landslide victory to Jesse Jackson's wins in 1984 and 1988.)

Source: Hillary Adviser Harold Ickes Tells Surrogates To Refer To Super-Delegates As "Automatic Delegates"
By Greg Sargent - February 12, 2008, 11:43AM

In a sign that the spin war over the significance of super-delegates is underway in earnest, Harold Ickes told assorted Hillary supporters on a private conference call yesterday that the campaign wants them to start referring to super-delegates as "automatic delegates," according to someone on the call.

The person I spoke to paraphrases Ickes, who is spearheading Hillary's super-delegate hunt, this way: "We're no longer using the phrase super delegates. It creates a wrong impression. They're called automatic delegates. Because that's what they are."

The worry appears to be that the phrase "super-delegates" implies that "they have super-powers or super influence when they don't," the source says, describing Ickes' thinking. In other words, the phrase suggests that they have greater than average clout and that they have the power to overrule the democratic process, giving it the taint of back-room power politics
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/hillary_adviser_harold_ickes_t.php

[Jed Dilligan]

27. She's a great something

I don't know if the word "leader" is the first that comes to mind. "Politician" seems more apt.

[BlackVelvet04]

47. Come on, admit it, Jed....

it's the noodley appendage thing. ;-)

[Jed Dilligan]

48. It would be on some very subconscious level if that's true

My female boss, who used to be mayor of a mid-sized city, is someone I perceive as a great leader.

[BlackVelvet04]

66. I'm just teasing ya! n/t

[LanternWaste]

29. I honestly believe either candidate would make a wonderful President

I honestly believe either candidate would make a wonderful President-- full of change, ready to stand up for the Democratic platform and ready to stand against the GOP.

If someone thinks I'm brain-washed, un-American or a troll due to my position, then the problem lies with them, not me. Or, to quote the Bard "the sin is on thy head alone".

[backwoodsbob]

33. as I have stated...

I WOULD and WILL vote for Hillary if she gets the nod.I just prefer Obama.

[Mezzo]

37. I'm right with you, BobbyDem

Even if we lose, we win. Either way. This nastiness is unbecoming.

[bunnies]

31. Since when are copycat threads allowed in GD:P? nt

[rodeodance]

46. where have you been last few weeks???

[Cha]

32. Because she a chickenshithawk who

hasn't shown any leadership or courage in the last 7 years..but still feels she's entitled..

hilary hasn't earned it.

Such arrogance led directly to the idea that Clinton could simply project an air of inevitability and be assured her party’s nomination. If she wins—as she very well might—it will be in spite of her original approach. As one former Clinton staffer put it to me last spring: “There was an assumption that if you were a major donor and wanted to be an ambassador, go to state dinners with the queen—unless you were an outright fool, you were going to go with Hillary, whether you liked her or not. The attitude was ‘Where else are they going to go?”

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4568468

[truebrit71]

36. Because she isn't?

She's too busy crying/being tough, capitulating/standing tall to be great maybe?

[Vinca]

38. Hillary has always seemed like Republican-lite to me and

if I was interested in a Republican leader I'd vote for Grandpa. She's been shifting a little more to the left as the campaign goes on and I'm not buying it. Sorry.

[SKKY]

40. She was a Republican in her early days...

...But I don't think it really means anything. Reagan was a Democrat.

[rodeodance]

45. yes, the emphasis is on 'early"

[Occam Bandage]

39. Oh, sure she is. But you don't see people calling HRC supporters "cultists."

[rodeodance]

41. love it.

[tabasco]

42. Triangulation is anathema to leadership.

Hillary is a good politician. That is all.

[FrenchieCat]

43. What has she led on and accomplished during her senate years....

exactly?

I'm so glad for the limit in threads devoid of any real information, till it ain't even funny!

[sendero]

63. I have asked that question repeatedly...

.. here and I have yet to get one of these rabid HRC supporters to tell me just exactly what she has accomplished with all that leadership she is supposed to have.

The answer is not very much.

[donheld]

49. I have no problem saying Hillary would be a great leader

:bounce::bounce::bounce:

[apnu]

52. Not a great leader, but a great politician.

The Bill and Hillary Clinton team are masterful politicians. Obama is a masterful speaker and a good politician.

And I'm sick of politics, I want leadership.

Which means, incidentally, I will lose this election as the current field of choices on both sides offers no leadership and all politics.

For me, 2008 will be about holding my nose... again.

[IndianaGreen]

53. She sure led the way in appeasing Bush and Cheney on Iraq and Iran

She sure showed her leadership when she hugged Ariel Sharon at the AIPAC conference and called him a great man!

More leaders like her, and the country will sink out of existence!

[jeffrey_X]

55. Who said she might not be a good leader?

eom?

[ClassWarrior]

67. Because of the lack of evidence of her doing any sort of...ummm...leading?

NGU.