Dean SHOULD NOT shut up, but no one should expect Kerry to back him up!

[wndycty]

I applaud Dean for going after Bush regarding Spain, however I resent that people are calling Kerry weak for not backing him up. Folks whether you like it or not John Kerry is the nominee and he has to be more responsible in his approach to controversial issues (look how they tore Wes Clark up for something Michael Moore said).

Guys you have to look at the big picture and the roles that people are playing. As the nominee Dean could not be as outspoken as he is now, Dean is going to make a great impact on this election, I hope he keeps it up, but just like its unfair for the right to expect Kerry to repudiate Dean, please do not expect him to back him up. I bet you Dean does not expect him to. . .its called POLITICS!

[emulatorloo]

1. agreed - Dean is a great surrogate and is fighting the good fight EOM

[wndycty]

3. Yes and this may the plan. . .

. . .politics is a game. I hate to say it but as the nominee Dean could not be as outspoken as he is now!

[madfloridian]

18. Partially agree, but someone MUST defend from the RNC statements.

I believe that. It would not be hard to do,you know.

[maddezmom]

21. bet you're right...it's a plan to distract and take down bush*

Dean can take of himself. :) He's going to be out hitting bush* hard from now til the election, so this probably isn't the last time he's going to get some attention from little eddie.

[wndycty]

23. Right and Kerry can't afford to be dragged into it everytime it happens. .

. . .thank you to Dean for doing this, but at least publicly he is on his own. There may be some positive going on between Kerry and Dean behind the scenes, but publicly its important for Kerry to keep issues like this at arms length.

[RogueTrooper]

2. I agree with you ( mostly )

It is the job of surrogates to say what the candidate cannot say and to take the heat. Whilst the RNC are tearing into Dean, they are not tearing into Kerry, after all.

However, I do think Kerry should say something about the odious comments Gillespie directed towards Dean.

[gone fishing]

4. dean is on his own and can take care of himself

kerry needs to keep his eye on the big price

5. Kerry doesn't have to "back Dean Up"

But it might be nice if he weren't so quick to run away from him either.

Other than that, I fully agree with your message.

[KittyWampus]

6. Well, Dean Phrased His Comments Poorly, IMO

and he essentially HELPED Bush Co. by equating situation in Iraq with Al Qaeda and Terrorism.

[madfloridian]

17. No he did not. He just said the truth. Plainly.

Remember all those times he said the truth. All wrong, must say it very carefully and properly so all the people who won't vote for us anyway will not be offended. Must not phrase the truth in clear terms, shade it, twist it until it doth not offend.

I say baloney!

[tobius]

26. already he is trying to "clarify" his statments

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/bush/articles/2004/03/17/dean_ties_madrid_bombing_to_iraq?mode=PF

And, he said, "The president was the one who dragged our troops to Iraq, which apparently has been a factor in the death of 200 Spaniards over the weekend."

Dean issued a statement later to The Associated Press that said, "Let me be clear, there is no justification for terrorism. Today I was simply repeating what those who have claimed responsibility for the bombings in Spain said was the reason they carried out that despicable act."

Dean was speaking on a conference call arranged by Kerry's campaign. Campaign spokeswoman Stephanie Cutter reiterated Dean's clarification of his remarks and added,

"It's clear that what happened in Spain is a painful reminder that the war on terror is far from over," said said, "and the nation would be better off if this administration took the time to rebuild our alliances rather than engaging in political attacks."

[maddezmom]

33. thanks for the link

hadn't read it yet. :)

[zulchzulu]

37. Dean hands red meat to the Chimpsters...

OK, it's Dean. Whatever. But that kind of statement is a tad over the top. Boil it down first, Howard, ferchissakes...

[madfloridian]

39. OMG. He told the blasted truth. It was not over the top. Boil it down?

That is what is wrong the party now. Your statement "boil it down first Howard, fercrissakes" is exactly what Democrats have been doing.

It is why we are stuck in Iraq.

[jansu]

62. Totally agree & I am not trying to get higher numbers, just don't

have anything else to say, but I agree with madfloridian's statement and would have said the same thing on my own, but MF beat me to it!

[Hav]

7. .

Dean is fantastic when it comes to make (true) statements like this.
I like the way he can put the truth very effectively in a few sentences.
It gives the Dems free publicity.
The Dems don't have the money, that's why we are desperately in need of outspoken people like Dean that get attention and media coverage.
We should be very glad that we have him.

[BurtWorm]

8. I agree. And I actually think that if Kerry doesn't "disown" or otherwise

dis Dean, he's being smart and brave.

[Guaranteed]

9. Kerry HAS to defend Dean, because of this:

"Bush campaign chairman Marc Racicot said Dean blamed the deaths on Bush and ***the war on terror*** when they were caused by a global terror network."

The only way that what Dean said could possibly be wrong is if he's saying the WAR ON TERROR is wrong. That's not what he's saying- but it's what the RNC is SAYING that he's saying. Kerry HAS to come out and defend Dean, because they are once again blurring the line. Kerry is the party leader, and Kerry has to be the one to keep the distinction clear- otherwise HE is going to be the one that loses because he didn't!

[BurtWorm]

12. I agree with you!

He should say--and I'm sure the media will give him the opportunity to say it--that it's an outrage for an official of Gillespie's stature to make such a vile remark about an American simply because he says something critical of the Bush administration's Iraq policy. I doubt he will say anything as forceful. I would be thrilled if he did.

[HuskerDem]

46. Unless Dean is no longer responsible for his own mouth and actions

The only person that HAS to defend Dean............ is Dean.

Or is Kerry his Daddy now? 'Cause silly me, I thought Dean was a grown boy and all.

[madfloridian]

60. Then the people here should quit begging for his support.

Plain and simple. Make fun of the messenger, you don't need the messenger.

[KFC]

10. Agreed. Both Dean and Kerry know exactly what they are doing.

Tag-teaming to win the election. I'm positive that Kerry knew what Dean was going to say and Dean knew what Kerry's response would be.

[madfloridian]

11. Kerry should say "Dean is NO mouthpiece for terrorists" loud and clear.

So should other Democrats and now.

[wndycty]

14. Our focus should not be on a former candidate. . .

. . .it should be on the candidate.

[madfloridian]

16. Whoa! So wrong. Kerry folks have BEGGED for Dean's support.

So now you don't want it? I have not heard a word from anyone on the RNC calling Dean the Terrorist Mouthpiece.

Of course we shouldn't *focus* on Dean!!! But we have been blasted her for ages because Dean wasn't helping Kerry, isn't Dean going to support Kerry....why isn't Dean out there campaigning for Kerry. Bad Dean, selfish Dean.

Now come on, he was brilliant Sunday on MTP, supported Kerry, called him the captain of the team....he tells the truth about Spain, and Kerry doesn't need him know.

So which is it? You want help or not. You want truth or not? Let's play nice another few years.

[Jacobin]

19. They do have short memories dont they?

"Dean must send all his support and money making machinery to Kerry!"

and then:

"Kerry doesn't owe Dean shit, let him swing in the wind for stating the truth"

Kinda like him though, sadly

[wndycty]

20. Huh? Get the Dean chip off of the shoulder. . .

. . .Dean is not the story! I support him doing what he is doing and I an thankful for it. But John Kerry should not be expected to deal with controversies that Howard Dean creates. I think everybody wants Dean's support, but if that support comes with a price of having to defend him every time he mouths off (which I want him to keep doing) then his support is not worth it.

[madfloridian]

22. Telling the truth is NOT mouthing off. Dean was *asked* for his opinion.

See, that has what the Democrats have become. Only tell the truth in careful words, that simple folks who are going to vote Bush anyway will understand. Be sure not to be TOO honest....just a little bit.

I have a Democratic chip on my shoulder right now. A very big one.

[wndycty]

24. Its not about Dean, its not about Dean, its not about Dean!

:kick:

[madfloridian]

28. If no one says "Dean is not a terror mouthpiece".......

Then it won't be about Kerry either.

Your seeming hatred for us is beyond belief. Dean's group is going to work for Kerry. We are going to vote for Kerry....well hubby went ballistic and may not vote.

But....that's ok, let everyone sit back and relax. Don't worry if a fellow democrat is slimed by the RNC.

[wndycty]

29. Who has hatred for anyone?

. . .I think you might be holding a grudge or something from the primary battle. We have an election to win. I want Dr. Dean to keep doing what he is doing. But I want John Kerry to keep his eyes on the prizes, getting into a battle with Gillespie over something Dr. Dean says is not keeping your eyes on the prize.

[madfloridian]

34. No, I have no grudge. You said I had a chip.

Kerry does not have to get involved. The Democratic Party should NEVER let the RNC issue a statement about one of ours, and not jump in and fight. Come on. There are lots of them you know, they should let it be known that no one of our Democrats will be called such names.

They are acting like they are waiting for Eddie G of the RNC to issue the next Dem talking points!!!

[madfloridian]

13. They should NOT let a fellow democrat be called mouthpiece for terror.

No matter what you think, that is just wrong.

[hackwriter]

15. Dean is playing the role of Merry and Pippin in FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING...

Remember in THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING when the Orcs are descending on the Fellowship and Merry and Pippin come out of hiding and shout "Over here! Over here!" so that the Orcs don't go after Frodo and he can escape?

That's the role Dean can play here. Let him be the "bad cop." Then the frothing gasbags of the right can go after him and leave Kerry alone.

I think it's brilliant. :)

[Bread and Circus]

25. Well said as usual wndycty

[wndycty]

27. Well thank you.

. . .and for the record I am defending Dean on this! I just think that it is unfair to expect Kerry to back him up. I want Dean to keep on doing what he is doing, its going to have an impact.

[Bread and Circus]

41. I know you are, and so do I. I also want Kerry to work toward victory.

[milkyway]

30. Dean can introduce to the mainstream the mems that

are commonly heard at places like DU. He will take crap for it, but he's used to it by now. He gets a lot of media attention, so he will plant the seeds in the minds of some voters of ideas that Kerry can not say himself. Kerry can keep his distance, and seem reasonable and Presidential in comparison to Dean. These are not new roles--it's been going on for months, only Dean didn't realize it would cost him the nomination.

Remember, Dean supporters, Kerry used his surrogates in Iowa and New Hampshire to win the nomination while maintaining a safe distance and plausible deniability. It is now Dean's turn to fulfill the role of surrogate, and it's one for which he is ideally suited. It's kind of like Dean is the football player doing the tough blocking so that Kerry can run through the opening and score a touchdown.

[wndycty]

31. Thank you!!!

And thank Howard Dean! This what I am talking about. We need people out there fighting. Dr. Dean is going to play a major role in a John Kerry victory and I hope he keeps up the good work. He can swing at Bush in ways that John Kerry can only dream of.

[maddezmom]

32. right on milkyway

:)

[madfloridian]

36. Party should NOT let a fellow democrat be called mouthpiece for terror.

I agree with much of what you said. The Democrats should not allow the RNC to call our guys names. That is weak. That is the issue I am making, and no one responds to that.

The party has a role in this. You know they do.

[milkyway]

43. Yes, I would like to see some Dems stand up for Dean (perhaps some of

the other candidates that ran against him and also McAuliffe), but I'm not upset that Kerry has not. If he did, we would have a three day media debate about Dean and what he said. This is not how Kerry would want to run his campaign--every time Dean says something that gets the wingnuts in a tizzy, Kerry would have to run to his defense.

The more joined at the hip Dean and Kerry appear to be, the more cautious Dean will have to behave. It's better that Dean is allowed to freelance on his own and be allowed to be Howard Dean. When questioned about the next supposedly controversial statement by Dean, Kerry can just tell the media that Dean speaks for himself, and they should go talk to Dean about it. I would not be surprised if Dean and Kerry came to an agreement that this is how their relationship would be during the campaign. I think that in the past few months Dean has learned a whole lot about the nature of contemporary national politics.

Another problem with Kerry having to come to Dean's defense every time Dean says something is that Dean would be seen as the leader and Kerry as the follower. Kerry should certainly step forward and make strong statements himself, but it would not look good if the only time he took a stand was in response to Dean doing so first.

[HuskerDem]

48. The RNC is gonna call our guys names anyway and Dean had to have known

He was in for return fire on that one. He's a big boy. He knows what he's doing.

It's kind of like Janet Jacksons "costume malfunction".

[madfloridian]

49. So you are advocating the Party not fight for a member

called a terrorist mouthpiece by the RNC head. Just trying to clarify here.

I don't worry one minute about Dean. He has spine and courage, and a following that will help him in the new org.

I do worry about my party. They are not standing up and fighting over this very vital issue.....the GOP is calling us names again. They should not be allowed to get away with it.

There should be Democrats out all over saying that Dean does not support terrorism. They should say he deserves respect, as any of our former Democratic governors and presidential candidates do.

They should say something. They should not be wimpy.

[HuskerDem]

54. I am arguing that everyone knows what their part in the play is whether

you can see that or not. THAT is what I am arguing. I think Dean knew exactly what limb he was walking out on with that statement.

You have a personal, emotional desire to see Dean's statements validated by the nominee. I don't think Dean shares your need. I think he was fully cognizant of his actions and the fallout, and the fact that he would be walking alone on this one. He's a smart guy and he has nothing to lose!

Which freakin' republican was it that said that a victory for Kerry was a victory for Al Quaeda? Have you seen Shrubbie out there supporting or renouncing him? NO. Why? Because that's how it works. Lower level players stir up the pot and the nominees let them.

If you want to win an election you keep your head. If all you want to do is make some noise you put a copper pot on it and grab a spoon.

I'd rather Kerry kept his head, I want Bush OUT. I'm betting Dean wants that too, and knows just how to keep up what he's done here. I'm betting he will continue to play his part in accomplishing what must be done.

[zulchzulu]

35. Dean is Dean. Kerry is Kerry. Kerry is the nominee, not Dean.

Kerry is running his race for the Presidency. Dean isn't. Period.

If Dean expects Kerry to parrot along with anything that Dean might come up with, then what the heck is the point of Kerry running?

Should Kerry agree with everything Kucinich says? Or Sharpton? Or Gore? Or Lieberman? Or Clinton?

Let Dean be Dean. Let Kerry run his race.

[madfloridian]

38. They should NOT let a fellow democrat be called mouthpiece for terror.

I will keep saying it because it is true. The party needs to speak up when the RNC calls us names.

Kerry can keep distance, that is ok. The party should not let a former candidate be called a mouthpiece for terrorists.....unless....unless....they agree.

I am beginning to think they do. The party has a role to play here as well.

[HuskerDem]

50. Well then I will keep saying that Dean is a BIG BOY - He knew what he was

doing. He knew he was in for return fire and that he couldn't expect the nominee to cover his butt. That wasn't the purpose.

The "role" here is being played by Dean who has nothing to lose. Dean, already percieved as a loose cannon, can make this kind of remark, the kind that gets people thinking and talking and it can accomplish the feat of stinging Bush while leaving Kerry untouched. Only if the game is played right. You think Dean's feelings are all hurt or something because the nominee who has an election to win isn't aligning himself to the brusque comments of an also-ran? Puh-leeze........... Dean is bigger than that.

[madfloridian]

52. Baloney.

You have not addressed the issue that the Party has a responsibility to stand for something.

The RNC has attacked us with impunity for years. They should no longer get away with calling a 5 term governor and a former candidate by such names as "terrorist mouthpiece".

I doubt you will address that, as the party is taking an indefensible position on this.

[HuskerDem]

55. I'll see your Baloney and raise you a Pastrami and 2 Summer Sausages......

The party has the responsibility to support the NOMINEE.

Dean is not the nominee.

Kerry and other Democrats are fighting against attacks on Kerry, that's the focus now. It's an election year. Kerry won the nomination. The party has a responsibility to defend Kerry.

Did I mention Kerry is the nominee?

We have everything against us. Less money. Hostile press. Limited face time. It is ILLOGICAL AND UNREASONABLE to expect the party to expend limited time and resources covering Dean's or any other X# runner-ups butt.

Everyone is responsible for their own butt. <sarcasm on> I doubt you will address that, as many Dean supporters believe all the world should hang on and/or cheer Howard's every word <sarcasm off/>

[madfloridian]

56. There is one thing I never do on this forum.

I will argue, and I defend a position. I will call the party to be accountable for the mess we are in Iraq. I will post things about Dean if I wish, just as the Clark folks post them, and Kucinich as well..

There is one thing I do not do, and in all my years have never done.
I do not condescend to people by implying they are fools. I do not make fun of them by misinterpreting devotion to the new causes Dean is espousing as being hero worship. It is not.

You think I don't know that we have everything against us? Hey, I live in Florida and I have JebCo.

There is a lot of the political "humiliation" tactics going on. The GOP uses them against the Dems. Sadly the party has been using them against the Dean supporters both nationally and locally.

Reread your letter in the light of what I just said. I am way too old and way too cynical to worship and adore anyone.

I will vote for Kerry, but our time and money will go to the causes which Dean espouses. I would never insult you.

And yes, the Democrats should stand up and holler when the RNC calls names!!!

[HuskerDem]

58. You were not above the same tactics when you hurled them at me

were you? You insulted me and based it on the Democratic party as a whole.

This opened you up as a "Dean supporter" attacking the Democratic party.

Reread yourself.

[madfloridian]

59. Here my posts in this portion, copied exactly.

Here are my 3 posts in this part. I see nothing here that is insulting to anyone.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I will keep saying it because it is true. The party needs to speak up when the RNC calls us names.
Kerry can keep distance, that is ok. The party should not let a former candidate be called a mouthpiece for terrorists.....unless....unless....they agree.
I am beginning to think they do. The party has a role to play here as well.

You have not addressed the issue that the Party has a responsibility to stand for something.
The RNC has attacked us with impunity for years. They should no longer get away with calling a 5 term governor and a former candidate by such names as "terrorist mouthpiece".
I doubt you will address that, as the party is taking an indefensible position on this. I will argue, and I defend a position. I will call the party to be accountable for the mess we are in Iraq. I will post things about Dean if I wish, just as the Clark folks post them, and Kucinich as well..

There is one thing I do not do, and in all my years have never done.
I do not condescend to people by implying they are fools. I do not make fun of them by misinterpreting devotion to the new causes Dean is espousing as being hero worship. It is not.
You think I don't know that we have everything against us? Hey, I live in Florida and I have JebCo.
There is a lot of the political "humiliation" tactics going on. The GOP uses them against the Dems. Sadly the party has been using them against the Dean supporters both nationally and locally.
Reread your letter in the light of what I just said. I am way too old and way too cynical to worship and adore anyone.
I will vote for Kerry, but our time and money will go to the causes which Dean espouses. I would never insult you.
And yes, the Democrats should stand up and holler when the RNC calls names!!!
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Feel free to show my tactics. I don't mind at all.

[HuskerDem]

61. I did address your issues, and your emotional responses

fall short of reason IMO.

By your standards, if you insulted no one, no one insulted you.

[madfloridian]

63. No, you only called me emotional. I am not. I am only angry inside.

You did not address the issues. Please show me where I was emotional, and please show me where I insulted you. That is only fair.

[HuskerDem]

64. I love how you acknowledge my observation of your emotionalism

and then talk about it being on the inside. That's so sweet. :loveya:

I promise not to take any more offense at being called a (horrors) DEMOCRAT re your statemet:

I doubt you will address that, as the party (that includes me) is taking an indefensible position on this.

Than you should at being referred to as a "Dean supporter".

Fair is fair.

I don't have a broad brush for any supporters, I'm working with all of them locally to get Democrats into every office and position possible.

Edited to change word in title from ove to love

[zoeyfong]

40. "Politicians" should consider possibility that courage & integrity sells.

Yes, it's true that lying, ass-kissing, flip-flopping, and being on the take are standard operating procedures in politics, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. Howard Dean's incredible rise from nowhere to leader of the pack shows that people can handle hearing the truth; however, the last minute switch back to politics as usual (kerry) shows that the real problem is the perception that 'politics' can not be changed, i.e., the rules of the game can not be changed, we dems can only hope to win according to the existing rules. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy; the more people who believe that nothing can be changed, the fewer who will try to change anything. Personally, I refuse to join in the capitulation to the status quo.

[fujiyama]

42. Great...

This unity stuff lasted for what? One week?

The party is back to its usual, divided self. To top this off, some Naderites on this board are using RW talking points to bash Kerry.

Meanwhile, Bush is exploiting deaths of Spaniards, Iraqis, Americans, and just about anyone else to further his WH bid.

[RetroLounge]

44. You're right. That would require a backbone.

eom

[wndycty]

47. Thats good, let Kerry backbone himself out of the White House. . .

. . .do you guys realize that if Dean were the nominee he would not be talking like this?

[HuskerDem]

45. That's how the game is played, always has been and Dean is still a player

The ones with less on the line bark the loudest and say the things that get people talking and thinking.

With a wink and a nod the ones with their entire ass on the line say "Of course Mr./Ms. X has a perfect right to voice their opinion, the real issue is" ------> redirect question here.

[sangha]

51. Dean is earning his brownie points

He's been doing such a good job that even I feel compelled to be grateful. Dean is going to take some knocks for the party, and for the nation. In addition to me, he will be earning the gratitude of people who are in a better position to reward him than I am.

[dogman]

53. It's like the capture of Saddam

Dean was right, we weren't safer, but the spin is put on everything you say. It was used to rip him. When Moore said "deserter", Clark took the hit and no one defended him. The DNC took it up with out crediting Clark and Kerry distanced himself from it. As wndy says Kerry is the nominee and others have to go out and do the hits on his behalf. Dean has never shied away from taking a stand. The public isn't paying the attention we do and the media is not our friend. They will do everything possible to twist this so Cheney looks normal and we look crazy. Every one has a part to play.

[madfloridian]

57. Dean really got blasted by his own for that one.

And he was right.

[JNelson6563]

65. Dean needs no back up

He's quite capable of fending for himself. Even with knives in his back he is not deterred.

Rock on Doc! :toast:

Julie

[wndycty]

66. Knives in his back? Oh please. . .

If he is going to be outspoken (which I hope he remains. . .I really like it) he does it at his own expense. Thread is over 60 posts because we are debating on how Kerry should back up Dean. I will repeat its not about Dean.

Dean's contribution is crucial and necessary but if that contribution comes at the expense of Dean supporters expecting Kerry to defend him, it does not really help!

The Democrats all have positions to play. . .Dean is playing is and Kerry is playing is.

[surfermaw]

67. Stop fretting, Dean and Kerry work in Tandem,

Even if you don't think so...the five have worked well together from day one...Dean,Clark Edwards, Gep and Sharpton, can saw things Kerry can't..so keep your cool and let them handle it, It doesn't matter which of the bunch is VP...the others will be in the cabinet, and lets hope Sharpton is press Sec. that would be the most dreaded thing the republican could get.