Hillary: what a disappointment...

[Blue_Roses]

I've been active with the Democratic party since I could vote. My first big presidential election who-ha was working for Micheal Dukakis. It was empowering and made me proud to be a Democrat. Lloyd Bentson stole my heart after that fabulous debate with Dan Quayle, but even as much as we worked for it, it didn't happen, so we waited...and then finally: Bill Clinton. As he tossed his hat in the ring and talked about a place called, "hope"...and hope we did--it paid off, until,

Monica and a hungry right wing ready to take him down.

As I watched in horror at the debacle Bill had made for himself and the country, my sympathy immediately went out to Hillary, along with many other supporters. We too, were mad as hell at Bill and felt betrayed, but mostly we felt for Hillary and how she must feel from such betrayal, but I continued to defend them tooth-n-nail, even at some very heated holiday dinners with some of my fundie in-laws.

When Hillary decided to run, my mother, a life-long Democrat, and I expressed worry that Hillary wouldn't be given a fair shot because of Bill's baggage, but she proved to be able to handle the criticism and I breathed a sigh of relief, until...

lately.

After this weekend, watching her scold Obama, as if he didn't have a right to run a campaign against her, I wonder if she realizes how this is turning people off? It was nauseating to watch. I keep trying to give her the benefit of the doubt, but all doubt is just about gone.

I live in Texas and have yet to vote. Up until now, I've been torn between loyalty and inspiration. There's something to be said for inspiration and new hope.

[paulk]

1. what debacle was that? The eight years of peace and

prosperity? That sure sucked, didn't it - and all negated by a stain on a blue dress....

Do you make all your political decisions based on how you feel about the betrayals of someone else's marriage?

Just curious.

----------------

Also curious if you feel that HRC doesn't have the right to run a campaign against Obama. 'Cause it seems to me that is what you're saying.

[scheming daemons]

3. Can you read? The OP was Pro-Hillary *UNTIL* recently.....

...she obviously didn't hold Lewinsky against Hillary.

[paulk]

7. I don't believe that for a second and

of course I can read. Is that really the best insult you can come up with?

What are you - five years old?

Talk like a grown up.

[Blue_Roses]

11. you're doing a pretty good job of hurling insults too

and don't presume to know me or what I'm thinking.

What are you-five years old.

Talk like a grown up.

[paulk]

26. did I insult you?

Do you consider every challenge an insult? Why don't you try to anwer my original post? You haven't, you know. I think your reasoning in the OP is shallow. Defend it! That's called "discussion". This is a "discussion board".

---------------------

how am I supposed to respond to the poster (who was not you, btw) who asks me if I can read? And why do you feel the need to speak for that poster?

[Blue_Roses]

29. what is your question..

I still haven't determined what that clearly is yet? And as for "challenge" calling someone a five-year-old sure sounds like an insult to me.

If it's this one:

"Do you make all your political decisions based on how you feel about the betrayals of someone else's marriage?

Then I WOULD answer it with a resounding, "NO" and ask you why ask such a obtuse question. Obviously, if you had read my post, you would see this.

[Blue_Roses]

4. don't be ridiculous...

turning this around to make it about an issue that was merely used as an example of my SUPPORT for her in a time when she DESERVED support, does not prove your point.

We are not in the '90's anymore.

[paulk]

10. I choose my candidates based on their positions on the

issues and their voting records.

You don't, I guess. You "supported" HRC because you felt bad that her husband had cheated on her. You don't like her now because she said something about Obama that pissed you off. Sounds pretty shallow to me.

But don't worry - that's how most of America votes.

[Blue_Roses]

14. You sound bitter and

you don't know me so don't spew your anger, thinking it will prove your point. It won't work.

"You "supported" HRC because you felt bad that her husband had cheated on her."

Wrong. Read. I SUPPORTED the Clintons from day one. I supported Hillary because she is a Clinton and I've always liked them-and the '90's. It ain't the '90's anymore.

"You don't like her now because she said something about Obama that pissed you off. Sounds pretty shallow to me.

Wrong again. Read. I have CONTINUED to give her the benefit of the doubt--knowing this is politics. But enough with the childish outrage. It shows desperation and jealousy--something unbecoming to someone I want as my president.


"But don't worry - that's how most of America votes."

Oh, really? :eyes:

[paulk]

27. I sound "bitter", huh?

yes, that is how most of America votes. With their emotions and not their heads. They vote for the movie actor instead of the guy who looks like the captain of the debate club. They vote for the fake distinguished statemen instead of the short, hairy eyebrow guy with the foreign name. They vote for the good old boy from Texas that they'd like to have a beer with instead of that wooden, humorless policy wonk who invented the internet.

They vote for that good looking young fellow who holds out "hope" as some kind of political bromide. They vote against that middle aged lady who reminds them of their Mom by telling them that it's going to be harder than that.

How else could we get the liberal left defending Obama's (no mandate) universal healthcare plan. The one that isn't universal. Or his RW memes on social security being in trouble. Or his "considering" school vouchers. Or his attacks on NAFTA when he is a total free trader himself. Or his being against the war because he wasn't in a position to even vote one way or another. Never mind that when he did attain that position, his voting record is exactly the same as his opponents.

[Blue_Roses]

30. if Americans vote with their "emotions"

then Hillary should be their choice, because all I've seen come out of her mouth lately is heated emotion and outrage. That has been a turn off, so your theory doesn't hold water.

I think you may mean people vote with the desire for change and new hope. Hillary isn't offering that.

[bvar22]

32. The families of the 1 Million dead Iraqis "Thank" you...

for supporting your candidate based on her position and votes.

....Oh wait, Hillary voted to kill them becuase it would look good on her resume.

Nevermind.

[paulk]

39. it's assholes like you

that pin this war on the Democrats

that help Republicans get elected

[bvar22]

44. I don't "pin the War on the Democrats".

I hold those that joined with Bush and the Republicans accountable,
and applaud ALL the Democrats with the integrity and courage to vote AGAINST it.


The Democratic Party Honor Roll
These Democrats should be remembered for their principled stand against the WAR Machine.

The Authorization to Use Military Force (IWR)


United States Senate

In the Senate, the 21 Democrats, one Republican and one Independent courageously voted their consciences in 2002 against the War in Iraq :

Daniel Akaka (D-Hawaii)
Jeff Bingaman (D-New Mexico)
Barbara Boxer (D-California)
Robert Byrd (D-West Virginia)
Kent Conrad (D-North Dakota)
Jon Corzine (D-New Jersey)
Mark Dayton (D-Minnesota)
Dick Durbin (D-Illinois)
Russ Feingold (D-Wisconsin)
Bob Graham (D-Florida)
Daniel Inouye (D-Hawaii)
Jim Jeffords (I-Vermont)
Ted Kennedy (D-Massachusetts)
Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont)
Carl Levin (D-Michigan)
Barbara Mikulski (D-Maryland)
Patty Murray (D-Washington)
Jack Reed (D-Rhode Island)
Paul Sarbanes (D-Maryland)
Debbie Stabenow (D-Michigan)
The late Paul Wellstone (D-Minnesota)
Ron Wyden (D-Oregon)

Lincoln Chaffee (R-Rhode Island)


United States House of Representatives

Six House Republicans and one independent joined 126 Democratic members of the House of Represenatives:

Neil Abercrombie (D-Hawaii)
Tom Allen (D-Maine)
Joe Baca (D-California)
Brian Baird (D-Washington DC)
John Baldacci (D-Maine, now governor of Maine)
Tammy Baldwin (D-Wisconsin)
Xavier Becerra (D-California)
Earl Blumenauer (D-Oregon)
David Bonior (D-Michigan, retired from office)
Robert Brady (D-Pennsylvania)
Corinne Brown (D-Florida)
Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio)
Lois Capps (D-California)
Michael Capuano (D-Massachusetts)
Benjamin Cardin (D-Maryland)
Julia Carson (D-Indiana)
William Clay, Jr. (D-Missouri)
Eva Clayton (D-North Carolina, retired from office)
James Clyburn (D-South Carolina)
Gary Condit (D-California, retired from office)
John Conyers, Jr. (D-Michigan)
Jerry Costello (D-Illinois)
William Coyne (D-Pennsylvania, retired from office)
Elijah Cummings (D-Maryland)
Susan Davis (D-California)
Danny Davis (D-Illinois)
Peter DeFazio (D-Oregon)
Diana DeGette (D-Colorado)
Bill Delahunt (D-Massachusetts)
Rosa DeLauro (D-Connecticut)
John Dingell (D-Michigan)
Lloyd Doggett (D-Texas)
Mike Doyle (D-Pennsylvania)
Anna Eshoo (D-California)
Lane Evans (D-Illinois)
Sam Farr (D-California)
Chaka Fattah (D-Pennsylvania)
Bob Filner (D-California)
Barney Frank (D-Massachusetts)
Charles Gonzalez (D-Texas)
Luis Gutierrez (D-Illinois)
Alice Hastings (D-Florida)
Earl Hilliard (D-Alabama, retired from office)
Maurice Hinchey (D-New York)
Ruben Hinojosa (D-Texas)
Rush Holt (D-New Jersey)
Mike Honda (D-California)
Darlene Hooley (D-Oregon)
Inslee
Jackson (Il.)
Jackson-Lee (TX)
Johnson, E.B.
Jones (OH)
Kaptur
Kildee
Kilpatrick
Kleczka
Kucinich
LaFalce
Langevin
Larsen (WA)
Larson (CT)
Lee
Levin
Lewis (GA)
Lipinski
Lofgren
Maloney (CT)
Matsui
McCarthy (MO)
McCollum
McDermott
McGovern
McKinney
Meek (FL)
Meeks (NY)
Menendez
Millender-McDonald
Miller
Mollohan
Moran (Va)
Nadler
Napolitano
Neal
Oberstar
Obey
Olver
Owens
Pallone
Pastor
Payne
Pelosi
Price (NC)
Rahall
Rangel
Reyes
Rivers
Rodriguez
Roybal-Allard
Rush
Sabo
Sanchez
Sanders
Sawyer
Schakowsky
Scott
Serrano
Slaughter
Snyder
Solis
Stark
Strickland
Stupak
Thompson (CA)
Thompson (MS)
Tierney
Towns
Udall (NM)
Udall (CO)
Velazquez
Visclosky
Waters
Watson
Watt
Woolsey
Wu


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone

[Blue_Roses]

45. nice try...

but I don't think he wants to see it. The truth seems to hurt too much.

[paulk]

46. so now Hillary is responsible for the death of a million Iraqis?

is that your truth?

[guruoo]

40. Sorry, can't have it both ways....

"Of the total of 69 votes we compiled -- some significant, some not -- it turns out that
the two differed on only one."

Compare And Contrast: Hillary And Obama's Votes On Iraq:
http://web.archive.org/web/20070826174924/http://www.electioncentral.tpmcafe.com/blog/electioncentral/2007/mar/29/comparison_of_hillary_and_obama_votes_on_iraq

WP Fact Checker:
2004

July 26. In an interview with the New York Times, prior to his speech at the Democratic Party convention, Obama declines to criticize presidential nominee John Kerry for his 2002 vote to authorize the Iraq war. Says he was "not privy to Senate intelligence reports." He then continued: "What would I have done? I don't know. What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made."

July 27. Obama tells Chicago Tribune that U.S. forces should remain in Iraq to stabilize the war-torn country. Says "there is not much difference between my position and George Bush's position at this stage," but is critical of Bush for bungling the occupation. Remains opposed to the original decision to invade. In keynote speech to Democratic convention, Obama avoids criticism of the war, saying "there are patriots who opposed the war in Iraq and patriots who supported the war in Iraq."

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/01/clinton_vs_obama_on_iraq.html

[whatchamacallit]

12. She wasn't president, she was simply along for the ride.

[papau]

13. LOL - there was no debacle under Clinton of course - but it is a

bit pathetic of the Obama folks to deny his smear/play the race card/lie campaign - or that those
"left" ideas are per Obama "on the table" to trade for GOP love and changing the atmosphere in DC. The later no doubt the reason the we are getting so many posts like the OP's.

The best part has been Obama stopping discussion of his lack of political ability to get left type victories of any size - by play the race card and getting 24/7 discussion of the "race card" - all by using his folks to say they saw racial undertones in comments by Clinton supporters - while he let it boil for a few weeks until he finally said the Clintons were not racists (not noting anything they had accomplished for blacks - like better jobs/income) but then claiming Hillary should be faulted for lack of control of all who support her - only 4 weeks later when he unleashed a few slurs/smears via supporters he claimed it was silly to assume anyone could control their supporters.

The walk on water sale via a GOP organizations/corporate media that has had its emails explaining its support of Obama as an attempt to get the weaker candidate printed on DU many times seems to work well with the men that are afraid of a women in authority.

[Blue_Roses]

23. is it just me or

is your post hard to understand:shrug:

I think what you're saying is that Obama is crying foul about the race card? Is that it? Because it's just not clear what you are trying to imply.

[rurallib]

2. I get the feeling that Hillary wants to take the Democratic Party

down with her. If she can't be the next Democratic president, no one can.
The one she should be screaming at, scolding and blaming is Mark Penn.

[closeupready]

5. BIG disappointment, and I was rooting for her up until recently.

Not anymore.

[redqueen]

6. You haven't voted yet?

Are you going to vote early or wait till the day of?

[Blue_Roses]

9. ...

up until now, I was sitting on the fence--each day looking over which pasture was greener:D...

Seriously, though, I've always voted early, but then we've never had this contentious of a primary before.

[democrattotheend]

8. As if he didn't have a right to run against her

"After this weekend, watching her scold Obama, as if he didn't have a right to run a campaign against her"

I think this is a dead-on assessment. I think she has been planning for this campaign for a long time, and she feels as if she deserves it, that it's her turn. She resents Obama for coming out of nowhere when he should have "waited his turn". It's understandable to some degree - it's as if she has been working hard at a company for several years, kissed all the right asses, and expects to get a promotion when her boss retires. Instead, the promotion goes to a kid 6-months out of college who just started at the company.

Of course, if the Democratic primaries were purely a resume contest, Richardson, Biden or Dodd would probably be the nominee. And unlike in the corporate world, at the end of the day, it's a democracy, and the voters have the right to consider whatever they want in picking the nominee. As in any workplace, she might have all the experience and connections in the world, but if she can't sell herself, she's not going to win. Obama has made the case that has appealed to more voters, and he's played the better game, fair and square.

[Blue_Roses]

16. Yeah, I think you're right...

and I'm sure she is angry that he's come along and stolen her "supposive" glory. But to continue to ridicule and stomp her feet, isn't doing her or the party any good. It is truly disappointing.

[guruoo]

15. Funny, I thought BO people loved rightwing talking points...

Sure seemed to when it came to smearing Hillary.

[Blue_Roses]

17. your comment

doesn't even make sense

:wtf:

[Tesha]

18. They have no factual arguments left.

Look, I was the perfect demographic to support Hillary.
White, suburban, upper-middle-class woman, etc...

And Mr. Tesha and I *DID* support her, sending quite
a few bucks to her 2000 Senatorial Campaign and glad
when she won it. And yes, we did that knowing full-well
that she was likely to launch a Presidential bid off
of that as well, and we were glad of that.

And then she started establishing a voting record in
the Senate. And on many of the issues we cared about
(e.g., the aftermath of 9/11, the War, civil liberties,
etc.) she was voting on the "other side" of the issues
from us. So our support waned.

Came the primaries, there was no way we would have
supported her as the nominee, but it was still *A
POSSIBILITY* that we could have been talked into
supporting her in the General Election. Her choice
for Veep would have had a lot to do with our decision.

But her recent campaign has sealed the deal: There's
no way at all that we'd vote for her now. She has
spent seven years actively driving away this Clinton
supporter and now I'm fully prepared to return the
favor to her.

And her supporters here just can't grock how badly
she has hurt so many of us. They can't resort to the
facts of the matter so they attack the messengers.
Like you. And like me.

Tesha

[guruoo]

21. Let me explain....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4758518&mesg_id=4759606

[Blue_Roses]

22. It's sad...

because even though we went through all that crap with Bill, I still regarded him as a good president. I see now that's how it should have been left. Yes, I'm glad she won the senate, but now, I'm just so turned off. I never thought I would be in this place.

My glasses had a strong rose-tint and they have since fallen off.

[guruoo]

19. Obama camp co-opts the RW smear machine against Hillary,

but then cry fowl when it appears that Hillary may have followed their example.

Got it now?

[Blue_Roses]

24. If Hillary thinks she is the "better" candidate,

then WHY would she allow herself to "stoop" to a level that she deems inappropriate or "smearing." Can't have it both ways.

[guruoo]

28. Certainly, two wrongs don't make a right, however, we now know Hillary was not the source...

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/obama-wore-muslim-gear-during-kenya-trip

[Blue_Roses]

31. it's not just that...

to watch her stomp and shout is very unappealing in a candidate.

[guruoo]

33. She's pissed, and

I don't blame her.

[Blue_Roses]

34. if she were to become president...

is that how she's gonna act everytime she gets pissed off? And like a previous poster said, where was the outrage over Iraq?

[guruoo]

37. False premise. Presidential Candidate vs President

And in this case the outrage is in the eye of the beholder.
Nice try though, but I've been at this business for awhile,
and know how to seperate the wheat from the chaff.

Right now, I just want my country back.
We can parse the details later.

[Blue_Roses]

41. I've been at this awhile too...

and yes, the outrage is in the eye of the beholder.

[GumboYaYa]

20. I agree.

The Clinton's have really damaged their standing with rank and file democrats over the past three days.

[Blue_Roses]

25. the last three days have been brutal...

I felt sorry for her on Friday, when the Dallas police officer was killed since she canceled her events here in DFW, and then to see such vitriol attacks over the weekend:crazy:

Then there is Obama, cool as a cucumber. Now to the novice voter, it doesn't take rocket science to figure out who the more enticing candidate is.

[GumboYaYa]

35. After her ending on Thursday and then the tragic death on Friday,

there was a lot of goodwill toward HIllary. I thinkher campaign may have interpreted that goodwill as a sliver of hope for her campaign. Hence the attacks this weekend. The sad part is that she destroyed all the goodwill she had just days before.

It is difficult to watch people you once admired sacrifice all that you admired them for in the raw pursuit of power.

[Blue_Roses]

36. It is hard to watch

and you are absolutely right. Those of us who like Hillary, have supported the Clintons through thick and thin, but now see that there is a definite pattern going on here, is a bitter pill to swallow.

I liked Obama the minute he walked out to give the key-note address in '04, but I wasn't sure he was ready. Now I see the way he is coming into his own, handling the pressure of all this crap, and I see I was wrong. Make that wrong on two things. Goes to show you never know someone until the pressure is on.

It's not how you handle adversity, but how adversity handles you. If she's gonna let it shake her up every time something doesn't go her way, then it will be a long four years, not to mention how irrational and flippant she looks.

You know, I wonder if all that anger from the '90's is part of this outrage. She's SO defensive and this is a campaign! When she said, "enough with the big rallies," I thought :wtf: Does she know how jealous that made her sound? I kept reading and searching to see what I missed, that maybe there was something to her outrage, but it wasn't. She said herself in the debates that she would consider "garnishment" for health insurance. That was on the flyer and she just now saw it and waited till that moment to stomp her feet and shove flyers to the wind?

Good grief...she's embarrassing herself and damaging this party's chances of a Democratic president acting like that.

[GumboYaYa]

38. Bitter pilll..I can't tell you how many times I stood up against family and friends

who hated the Clintons. It cost me some friendships. Even though I thought Bill ws a moral degenerate and total fool for his affair with Monica Lewinsky, I still supported them.

Now all those family and friends are feeding me a big plate of crow. Thanks Bill and Hillary.

[Blue_Roses]

42. I know what'cha mean...

and that crow isn't going down too goodx(

[intaglio]

43. Good for you Blue! whichever way you vote

As for the fools who believe they can intimidate you

- Let them be glad they will never get their heart's desire fulfilled,