I do not believe we will ever be able to heal the divide

[Bluerthanblue]

that has split this community apart.

And while a Dem may win in Nov. we will have lost something valuable along the way.

Sad- incredibly sad, but maybe it was inevitable.

I wish us all- peace~
Compassion and healing.

[Breeze54]

1. Bush and his ilk have taught them well... "It's Us or Them"

:puke:

[Bluerthanblue]

11. It IS "US" the U.S.a is all of us. I'd love to 'blame' bush-

I'd love to blame 'rush' and 'rove' and all the cruel, dirty, narcisisists and sociopaths,

But in the end- no one can make ME do anything against my will.

And I DO- "know better" and yet I don't always 'do' better.

I'm dissapointed in myself, and in all of us.


peace~

[Breeze54]

14. Then you are contradicting your OP title...

There is a pervasive "us or them' mentality on DU right now.

[Bluerthanblue]

21. there has always been an "us or them" mentality here-

but the 'us' was often an 'us' that was larger than most people admitted.

(at least from the way 'I' read the meaning)

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying when you say I'm contradicting my title-
If it is that 'we' the US is not 'us vs. them' Dem- Rep' then I have to say that when we come right down to it, there is nothing but US- anywhere on this planet.

We humans are bound together by more than what divides us. And we cannot blame anyone for our own behaviour.

I can't point to other people and say that they have forced me to do something I know is wrong.
We all need to own our actions.

Maybe I need to drop out for a while.

thanks though-

peace~

[madaboutharry]

2. I think you are wrong

As far as here on DU is concerned, it got this ugly in 2004 and then after the primaries things settled down. Everyone started talking again about how the goal was to defeat Bush.

As far as what is going on between the Clinton and Obama campaigns, that may be another story. He keeps saying they were friends before and that they will be friends again. I am not so sure.

[SammyWinstonJack]

8. I don't remember it being this ugly here in '04.

:shrug:

[madaboutharry]

12. It was. I remember the constant

locking of threads, people getting tombstoned, all kinds of insults hurled all over the boards. Some of it was shocking.

[SammyWinstonJack]

15. Maybe I have 'selective' memory then.

:evilgrin:

[GoneOffShore]

44. It was, that's when I became a Lounger.

Only way to stay on this board.

[Beausoir]

3. I think you are right. Nasty business, politics.

[Midlodemocrat]

27. If I weren't so young, I'd agree with you.

:rofl:

:hi:

[Beausoir]

45. You again, kid?

;)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. Nonsense.

On March 5th, we'll all be behind our nominee.

[Bluerthanblue]

18. I guess I'm not satisfied with simply

casting my ballot for the nom.

I'd really like to feel like enthusiastically campaigning - feel like I'm part of a community of people who don't only claim to 'be different' to want a better society- but that we are people who actually walk our talk.

What I've witnessed here, and even some of the discussions I myself have been involved in, leave me ashamed and discouraged, regardless of what happens.

While we can, do and should 'forgive' each other. We don't forget. We never forget.


Sorry- logging on and reading the newest garbage has really gotten to me today.

peace~

[papau]

20. Your feeling is shared by many - I see Obama destoying - his smears and lies were not needed

[bellasgrams]

35. True, if BO wins, i will feel he and his supporters are rubbing

our noses in it and if Hillary wins, his supporters will go berserk. I don't see any unity in the dem party unless a repb wins.
There's been to much damage. If BO wins the GE I hope he and his supporters don't divide the whole country. It could happen, there's many that just don't think he has what it takes. It will be 4 long yrs.

[demokatgurrl]

39. I agree but now I'm depressed.

It was ok when I thought it was just me that felt that way. Now I think it's real.
:(

[cboy4]

46. Talk about nonsense.....I've read many posts

from people who say they won't vote for the nominee.

They say that Democrats have to earn their vote...that they won't vote (D) by default.

And now that Nader is in the race, people have an alternative.

So I don't know what you're talking about with this "all" stuff.

That's why Obama supporters better start reaching out...if indeed he is the nominee.

[TooBigaTent]

5. Unfortunately, I agree. And there are many rifts that this primary season has

created:

Obama vs. Clinton supporters.

Old libs vs the party-uber-alles group.

Progressives vs. center-right wingers.

Dem values mean something vs. invite the republics in crowd.

Nothing lasts forever.

[Skinner]

17. If you are going to express sadness about "rifts" in the party...

...you might want to avoid characterizing those alleged rifts using such transparent good vs. evil terminology.

One side is: Old libs, progressives, and dem values mean something.

The other side is: party-uber-alles, center-right wingers, and invite the republics in crowd.

Way to strike a blow for party unity.

[TooBigaTent]

25. Please to explain what inaccuracies I am using in the rifts.

There has clearly been a loyalty component invoked by practically everyone here. It is demanded that we support the eventual nominee. It does not matter what that person espouses - they have the magic "D" and that makes them god.

Being a Democrat used to mean that there were some views that were mandatory. Now we have candidates that are not fighting for equal marriage rights. Would we have had the same "tolerance" for a candidate who says that the Voting Rights Law should be overturned? The values that drew me to the Democratic party back in JFK's day are now negotiable, depending on the demographics of the election. To me, that is a sad loss.

Has not one candidate (of the two) openly invited into his camp the very people who have contributed the most to the fucking up of America? I think there is a clear difference between progressives who have been thrown under the bus and the regrerssives whom Obama is doing so much to attract. And I do not think that his choice of friends is a good one.

Do not we all think that our own, personal view is correct and the opposite is wrong? If not, what does any of this matter? Party unity, if it comes to mean that we are only slightly less fascist than the GOP is not a goal to be strived for.

A final point - the only ones giving ammunition to the republics are those in each (HC or BO) camp who throw the non-issue-related crap at each other. I view criticising the candidates from the left as an attempt to prevent the party from becoming even more GOP-like. But the voices of the left are shouted down by the two center-right camps - I hope they like the kind of government they will get. I certainly will not.

[Skinner]

28. You completely missed my point. Or perhaps you proved my point.

Let me put it in a more direct way: You don't seem to be particularly bothered by the "rift" of which you speak. What bothers you is that you have to share a party (and a website) with people on the other side of this perceived rift.

[TooBigaTent]

40. It is the existence of the rift between left and right that I am most worried about.

Like politics as a whole (or is it a hole?), everything has become an either-or situation.

In the past (maybe seen through rose-colored glasses), there was an argument between exactly how to bring about change, about how fast to go. But the basic view that equality was a goal worth striving and fighting for was not in question (outside the Dixiecrats, that is). But it appears that some are wanting to engage the modern iteration of the Dixiecrats and incorporate their view that equality is only for "some" people into the party's set of values. I have a major problem with that kind of big-tentism. And the fact that segregationists would now be able to find a home here at DU and within the party is very discouraging.

Maybe I am naive and still think that the peace, love and freedom that we (children at the time) so fervently believed in back then is worth working for. I do not see that coming out of this new "republicans are our friends and their views count more than "old libs" because we want to attract the GOPers and the old libs will have nowhere else to go" theme.

[JVS]

29. The reason that there was unity on some of these issues in the past is that the party opposed them.

You say "Being a Democrat used to mean that there were some views that were mandatory. Now we have candidates that are not fighting for equal marriage rights." I hate to break your bubble but in 1960 there was almost NO support for what we consider equal marriage rights.

[TooBigaTent]

36. But here we are in 2008 and there are still some Dems who are not supportive of it.

And sure, there were Dems who were against civil rights back in the day. But TODAY, I thought that issue was settled.

[JVS]

38. But you argument is BS. There was never a time of complete uniformity of ideology in the party.

There were rifts at all times. In the future there will be issues that have rifts now that are settled, and there will be new rifts that will have developed in areas where we have never imagined disagreement possible.

[samplegirl]

6. The Republicans

have done major damage that is unforgivable.

[bigtree]

7. that's just looking at this place

we ALWAYS come together. The candidates will make certain of that in the end. I promise.

[Skinner]

9. We'll be fine.

Once we have a presumptive nominee, there'll be about a week of extra fighting. Then everyone will get sick of it, the mods will shut it down, and almost everyone will be glad to be done. There will be about five or six people -- including long termers -- who can't let it go and will end up banned, and frankly nobody will miss them.

We've seen this all before. Yes, the primaries were just as bad four years ago. And yes we came together and supported the nominee. In fact, I think the latter half of 2004 was probably the best six months this website has ever had.

[Bluerthanblue]

30. You probably speak for most

people Skinner. I sure hope that the majority of people are able to come together and not feel an abyss still exists.
I do remember 2004- maybe it was that I didn't really have a problem supporting any of our candidates then.

This year isn't the same for me. The .... gut-level attacks, have hit much deeper. Hit at the core of some of my own most vulnerable, vital places. Does this make any sense?

Especially Trust- that is an enormous one for me, the ability to believe that the candidate I am putting my vote behind is not going to do things that I find morally wrong, to further their agendas. Not that a candidate is ever going to be 'ideal'- or perfect- but I've never had to face the possibility that my party's candidate might be someone I don't (in my gut) trust, or want as a leader, but would have to at least vote for over the Republican alternative.

It is also the tone of this primary- There is no question from my recollection of the last primary that things have reached a much lower level of ugliness. The entire country seems to have fallen into an easy acceptance of crude, arrogant, ugly attitudes. It is almost a contest to see who can be the 'worst'- :shrug:

I think your belief that things will heal up and be fine is healthier than mine- and wish I could share it. :)

Maybe it is because this season is unnaturally long- campaigning started very early, and is dragging on- The race is an unusual one, 'history making' as well. Not to mention an end to 8 yrs of the bush disaster-

I hope I am completely wrong-

thanks
peace~
blu

[TexasLady]

31. well Thank GOD for that

I am glad to hear it.

[Kokonoe]

34. about GOD

When someone has an original thought it comes from God. When anybody repeats that its plagiarism, because you are not God.

[sniffa]

61. I suspect that will be the case

as I survived 2004, and many other here did (and yes, some didn't survive, including long termers who predated my arrival.

And just an aside, once GDP settles down, will the 3 thread rule still be in effect?

[Skinner]

72. No.

Once we have a presumptive nominee and the fighting settles down shortly thereafter, we'll get rid of the three thread rule.

[dempartisan23]

10. clinton has turned to hate and bigotry

i have lost all respect for her.

[papau]

16. I feel the same about Obama

[peace13]

23. Wow, I don't see it. n/t

[Midlodemocrat]

13. Once the trolls get sick of baiting us

and we stop taking the bait, DU will return to the great community it's always been.

[still_one]

19. Nope, disagree with you. Unless of course you believe this is as bad as the Civil War

I do agree it is sad, but I also believe we will come together behind WHOEVER the Democratic nominee is, especially knowing that what brought us to this state of affairs were the republicans

[peace13]

22. Where is the elasticity?

The Kucinich and Biden and Edwards folks have had to suck it up and get on with it. That being said, we are going to have the Continental Divide in the party? Let's look at who is not going to rebound from this. Is it the folks that just knew that Hillary was the one from day one or is it the entire voter populace in her camp? I agree that it is sad but it angers me as well. At the end of the day we have to pull it in, suck it up and get on with trying to get this country back on its feet. Peace, Kim

[northzax]

24. I agree

on March 5, I am done with this board for the duration. I am sick and tired of being told I am irrelevant, that everything I believe in is irrelevant, that I am wrong, that my support for my candidate is stupid.

for the record. I have never called someone (in GDP, at least) stupid, or evil, or dumb, or any other term. I ahve been called, in return, 'freeper' 'nazi' 'useless' 'asshole' and many other terms I care not to remember. I have never, and I repeat NEVER, had someone from the opposing camp since it because a two candidate race say "I understand your point, I just don't agree with you" it's been on both sides, but the virtiol towards me, and my candidate, is so rough, and so distasteful, that it makes unneeded animosity.

but hey, I understand. the Obama supporters are in love, many of them for the first time. and people who are in love for the first time think they invented it and that all the rest of us can't understand. it's the oldest story in the book. But because I understand, doesn't mean I want to take the abuse for nothing.

[Midlodemocrat]

26. Well, I hope you at least come to the lounge.

And, I hear exactly what you are saying. The vitriol is heartrending and serves no purpose to further our party.

Some of these folks remind of friends and acquaintances who were newly pregnant for the first time. The way they spoke was actually very cute, because you know, after all, NO ONE else in the history of the world had ever given birth.

[northzax]

33. pregnant, first love, first house, first puppy

everyone has something they discovered.

and toddlers may be worse than the actual pregnancy...

[hfojvt]

47. well, I think I understand, but I do disagree

Many Obama people, such as myself, are not so much in love as they are in hate. I have been ABC from Day One, and I have not liked the way she has run her campaign either. They attack you not just because they love Obama, but because they hate Hillary.

Also, while you have not shared any vitriol, every Hillary supporter/defender cannot make that claim. Obama supporters are quite often called names in personal replies and also broadbrushed in OPs that complain about the quality of GDP and place the blame mostly on Obama supporters or Hillary haters. At least I have experienced/seen it myself, but I understand that too. People here are passionate about their POVs.

[northzax]

50. so, just as a thought

perhaps people should pay attention to whom, and what, they are responding to? Anyone should understand that the vitriol helps no one. And, honestly, what I see coming from Hillary supporters is in direct reaction to the insurgent ABC stuff from the Obama camp. I get that people hate Hillary, but a good explanation for it (and why, from a detached position, Obama is better) has never been adequately explained to me. I just can't imagine why people, democrats, hate so much. Perhaps you can explain it? Why do you have such visceral hatred for her? And (just as important) rationally, why is Obama better? Think about it, I would be interested to know (you can pm if you'd like) i understand why the freepers hate her, that makes sense. But why obama over her? Is it her husband? Her vote to limit payday loan interest? (one of the seven, yes, seven, ways they have voted differently in the senate? Is it her voice? The fact she is female? That she can't give as good of a speech as he can? Her healthcare plan? Why support the Daschle wing over the DLC wing? We have begged for 8 years for a fighter, and we sneer at the one we get? Seriously, why?

Thank you for your reasoned response, by the way.

[hfojvt]

69. I try to engage people with reasons

so I don't understand why they don't defend Hillary instead of calling names or ordering opposing POVs to shut up.

As far as fighting, I don't see her fighting for the right things.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=4729534

Plus, Daschle is from my home state, so I have always been kinda fond of that spineless jellyfish. The Daschle wing is disappointingly weak, but the DLC wing is actively against us IMO. I don't think it is a visceral hatred for Hillary, so much as a feeling that she does not stand for the working class even while she pretends to. Plus her husband did not so much either. I have lots of my "reasons", such as they are, in my journal. Also, like my Democratic Governor, representative, and neighboring Senator from Mizzou I am seriously afraid she will hurt us downticket.

I didn't know about a payday loan vote, and I hate those places.

[LadyVT]

32. I agree

[damntexdem]

37. Hey, c'mon -- someday we'll come back together:

PC and Mac users together, peacefully coexisting on this site.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

41. i doubt it. du is a very very tiny part of the dem community

i think dems in general will be fine as will most of du


a few will not, but i suspect they were not doing too well even before this campaign season started

[RiverStone]

42. I disagree!

You may be surprised.

All it takes is a common enemy - and the puke machine will be far more relentless and so damn disgusting that McLame will inspire a DU comeback!. After time for the losing candidate's supporters to lick their wounds, I'm very confident that this place - a place of compassionate (but passionate!!!) spirits will come together.

trust me - it will happen

peace back at ya :pals:

[rug]

43. Which is why all this reaching out to Republicans is complete bullshit.

[suston96]

48. And the opposition party is laughing at Democrats here, there, and everywhere....nt

[Riley133]

49. I dunno, but telling people to get the F out of the party because they're too old...

does leave a bitter taste in one's mouth when it's repeated often enough. What's interesting is Obama is a baby boomer himself! How come he's considered young and the rest of us around his age are considered The Establishment?

[Solon]

51. I don't like the homophobia displayed by many, if not most, Obama supporters on this board...

its really disconcerting that these assholes haven't been tombstoned yet.

[sniffa]

52. Just out of curiosity

Where? Who?

I see it a lot here, and have for too long, but I can't characterize them as being a supporter of one candidate.

For example, one particular HRC backer, has had several posts deleted for using what was probably acceptable behavior in high school, back in the 80s, in referring to certain people as gay, or that some women are actually men, etc.

[Solon]

53. This post will probably get deleted, but let's see...

Atomic "Snaps for Drama" Kitten(also made an anti-semitic insinuation, but that was deleted)

babylonsister "just a gay issue"

dailykoff "homophobia is insignificant"

There are quite a few others, if you want, go to the "Best of DU" thread in GLBT, there are many examples. Also, just a note, I never said it was isolated to just Obama members, just that most of them that I have encountered demonstrated remarkable insensitivity to GLBT people overall, if not outright homophobia.

[sniffa]

55. Interesting

I know about the Best Of thread, as I've contributed to it.

2 of your quotes, I don't doubt. The 3rd I find almost hard to believe it was meant not in jest. I say that also, as I take that rout every day here on DU. I think having to explain your jokes or sarcasm, ruins the humor.

Then again, I could be terribly disappointed in another DUer again.

[Solon]

57. OK, which one are you surprised at?

all three of the ones I mentioned were as serious as heart attacks when they posted them, as all three were flamed for their comments.

ON EDIT: I'm trying to avoid examples by noobs, simply because there is a chance they are trolls from the Republican side, people like psychmommy, for example.

[sniffa]

58. Honestly

BS

I just don't expect that from her. :(

[Solon]

59. I'm sorry, I misquoted her, slightly...

I was going my memory, and she called it "that gay thing"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3966281#3966425

That's even more dismissive, if you think about it.

[dailykoff]

62. You also misquoted me.

I agreed with you that it is insignificant, and added "in this particular race, i.e., the Dem primary."

Check your facts before launching attacks. :)

[Solon]

65. Oh, that's too bad...

Would you like me to add in some more of your quotes, you actually made yourself out worse in that little tiff we had with your justifications. As I said in that thread, if it wasn't the primary, it would be the General, if not that, then the mid-terms, and if not that, then in the next presidential elections. You either draw a line in the sand and confront homophobes, or you simply excuse them into perpetuity, you seem to prefer the second choice.

[Solon]

63. Just to be clear...

I'm not Pro-Hillary, hell, I stayed home on Super Tuesday, I was thinking of going in and voting for DK(still on ballot, no write ins allowed), but, to be honest, I didn't see that much of a point. I hate Hillary and Obama for more or less similar things, with Obama having the McClurkin incident being just another notch against him. To be honest, I avoided GD:P for a while, only putting in occasional posts once in a while, I'm frankly surprised you are pro-Obama now.

[sniffa]

66. Well

I made a whole thread detailing my tortured path, from Kucinich/Dodd, Edwards, and then Obama. My thread tried to write the an accurate timeline, and it was also to announce that Bi-Baby and myself we're going to Obama's Boston rally 2 days later; myself to give me some reason to actively support him aside from that he's the last one standing of my ever-changing candidates, and for Bi-Baby to give him one last chance to possibly earn her vote. She was still planning on voting for DK prior to the rally.

For me, I was totally impressed by the rally I've seen on tv up close; I was more impressed to the tens of other rally goers I got to meet who gave me such a huge boost for the feeling that this is finally our year. The people we met were all over the spectrum, and some were long time Dems, a few were Indies, one or two Repubs, and the majority of all of these were first time voters. And the majority of them, including the first time voters, were ready to get involved.

I broke for Obama finally on Feb. 2, as is when I posted that thread, but I was starting to lurch toward him, as my choices were disappearing way too fast. That being said, I am now a full fledged Obama supporter. I agree with pretty much all of his positions (and still ache about Donnie, and the Bushy ex-gay camp guy), but my support is based now on the fact that I think he is actually the phenomenon he's described as - he's going to win, and win by a landslide. He has that sort of appeal to rival the 1980 result, but with the caveat of starting with a Dem Congress, and inflating the Dem majority to super-majority status.

And this, I say as a life-long Independent (though, a mostly Dem voting Indy, save a Green or Jack E. Robinson as he's a fucking hilarious dink, who wins about 3% of the vote every election, even though he runs as a Republican and the state party has refused to actually back him his last (6?) elections.

[Solon]

67. I'm a lifelong independent myself...

living in an open primary state, that at least gives me options. Never voted for anybody but Democrats my entire life, and to be frank, I'm thinking of either stopping that or leaving the country, I'm not sure which. To be honest, I've lost my patience with Dems, and Obama is no different, just yet another triangulating politician. I'm jaded, but think about this, my ONLY Democrat in Congress is Senator McCaskill, she sucks.

ON EDIT: To be honest, I'm really puzzled by how someone who was going to go for DK agreeing with Obama on all his issues, to be honest, his economic and health care policies suck, but Hillary's are almost exactly the same as well. If we went with issues alone, the differences between the two are minuscule, and its in the wrong direction, to be frank about it.

[Big Blue Marble]

54. As far as I can tell there are only a few who will not accept

the loss and move on the GE. They will hardly be missed. We have work to do.
Not here. Out there. Most of us will be spending less time on DU and more time
getting Obama elected in November.

[BoneDaddy]

56. Divide and conquer

It has worked so efficiently before so many times.

[no name no slogan]

60. Truthfully, this isn't much different from any other year

Democrats are notorious for beating the living shit out of each other during the primaries, and then coming together in the fall.

Even in 1968, the most divisive primary season in recent history, McCarthy finally gave his begrudging support to Humphrey. And even though Humphrey still lost, many historians agree that he would have beat Nixon if the campaign were just another week longer.

Every year there's always people who think that the party has been irreparably harmed during the primaries-- yet the party still comes together in the fall for the general election. Maybe it's because our system can't support more than two major parties at a time, but no matter what we always end up together come November.

[PretzelWarrior]

64. not true. I saw this place after 2004 primaries

and after the numerous Bev Harris schisms and after the Israel invasion of Lebanon and the weird way that split this place. Everyone will be just fine once the nominee is decided.

However, it would be nice to FINALLY WIN a presidential election.

[sueragingroz]

73. omg Bev Harris

now that is a blast from the past...

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

68. There's folks like this...alerted link provided...and then there's the rest of us.

I like the rest of us much better than this.

That's why the "messy, non lockstep really know that people matter more than money until the clueless leaders have to be reminded how they got there except we have those few, those precious few, that make the stand for "we, the people", and Republicans never do" party is my favorite. :loveya:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4769773#4770216

edit, grammer.

[sueragingroz]

70. the best way to heal the divide

is to focus energy on local politics - congressional races after this nomination nightmare is over.

If you are so upset that you don't think that you can actively support the "other" candidate - then put your energy in getting the closest democratic candidate to you elected to office. That will get you feeling good about the democratic party again.

Remember, all of this crap going on is being stirred up by repukes that want you to leave the party in disgust.

Remember - the presidential election is only part of the story. There are two branches of government up for election in Nov....

[sueragingroz]

71. duplicate

[elixir]

74. I'm hopeful that, come November, we'll be able to unite behind "our" candidate.