Why is Obama's health insurance mandate ok but Hillary's is not?

[rinsd]

Here's link to each candidate's webpage which has detailed pdfs on this info

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/

Both plans call for massive expansion of public health plans like MediCare/MediCaid, the loosening of eligibility requirements for a dozen others (includ what Congress members have) and even the creation of new public health plans.

No one in either plan will be forced to buy insurance they cannot afford, not parents of the nearly 9M uninsured children and not 35M or so uninsured adults.

Both plans also call for preventative medicine and regular checkups as a means of cost control. This is to both support early detection and treatment of disease and to stem the flood of emergency room visits which cost far more than standard doctor visits.

Obama's plan allows for individuals to opt out of the system.

Individuals without health insurance are far less likely to have regular medical care like checkups than those that do. They are also far more likely to use the emergency room than visit that doctor's office.

So why is Hillary's mandate for insurance the worst thing ever while Obama's mandate for children is barely mentioned?

[KittyWampus]

1. politically, it's easier to make mandates palatable to the public when they're for children.

[goodgd_yall]

33. It seems to me that's the idea behind it

I don't think it's because they don't want to "force people who can't afford it" to have to sign up. The point is both plans are supposed to make coverage affordable for everyone. I'm sure it's to make it more palatable.

[HeraldSquare212]

2. "no one is forced to buy insurance they cannot afford" - nope, that's not her plan

Her plan is, you have to buy insurance and it will be affordable, although she doesn't say what affordable means. If what she thinks is affordable is different that what a person thinks, they still have to buy the insurance, or face garnishment or some other enforcement mechanism.

As for Obama's mandate - I'd have to figure that there aren't many with children who wouldn't do all they could to get insurance. So I'm guessing it's a pretty small population that would impacted by his mandate.

[rinsd]

5. Really, that must be why 9 million kids are uninsured?

"As for Obama's mandate - I'd have to figure that there aren't many with children who wouldn't do all they could to get insurance. So I'm guessing it's a pretty small population that would impacted by his mandate."

Yes because overnight by the power of his charisma alone insurance will suddenly become affordable? Part of his element of making this affordable is prevention which he allows millions to opt out of.

"If what she thinks is affordable is different that what a person thinks, they still have to buy the insurance, or face garnishment or some other enforcement mechanism."

Which of course ignores that massive expansion of public health plans available that cost the individual nothing directly (we foot the bill as taxpayers).

Hillary also ties premiums to income level.

[HeraldSquare212]

8. They both say they'll make it affordable - but she forces you to buy even if you don't agree.

That's the main difference.

You say she ties premiums to income levels - so where's the chart for people to check what they would have to pay?

[rinsd]

14. Again you ignore the option of enrolling in the public plan.

Why?

[HeraldSquare212]

16. What will it cost, what will the income cut-off levels be for enrolling in the public plan?

It all sounds good in words, but where are the numbers? It's all meaningless without that info.

[rinsd]

19. Then I guess we can just shitcan all policy recommendations by either candidate.

Because they don't offer specifics to that level.

[HeraldSquare212]

24. Nope - because he doesn't force you to agree to buy it without knowing what it will cost.

So it's not the same issue.

[rinsd]

27. WTF are you talking about? Where does Obama specifiy cost?

By your logic, Obama would be forcing a parent to buy insurance without knowing its cost given his mandate for children.

But we already know your logic is faulty because both plans seek massive expansion of public health programs (including SCHIP).

[HeraldSquare212]

28. He doesn't - but he's not asking people to be forced to pay it before they know what it costs.

That's what Clinton is asking people - to write a blank check.

[rinsd]

31. So Obama does not have a mandate for children?

He does not ask working families to write a blank check by mandating coverage before he knows what the costs will be?

I hate using your ridiculous logic but I think you need to see it applied to your own candidate.

[HeraldSquare212]

32. You're right - that's an exception. But see the discussion we had 5 mins ago for more on that.

But your candidate wants everyone to agree to buy insurance in advance, without knowing the cost. That's ridiculous, speaking for myself, and ridiculous as a campaign platform. If she's going to force people, she has to tell them what she's forcing them to pay.

[rinsd]

36. We didn't have a discussion on it(child mandates), you ignored that part.

"But your candidate wants everyone to agree to buy insurance in advance, without knowing the cost. That's ridiculous, speaking for myself, and ridiculous as a campaign platform. If she's going to force people, she has to tell them what she's forcing them to pay."

Is this your 1st campaign? I am totally serious.

Because both candidate have proposed dozens of programs upon which the funding is a bit sketchy.

[HeraldSquare212]

38. I think most parents would like to buy, and don't have an issue with mandates for them,.

though I really think it's unnecessary and will involve a small number of people.


It's one thing for funding to be sketchy - it's another to say, you will pay a certain amount and I won't tell you yet what that amount will be. One is about fighting for a budget bill in Congress, the other is about taking money out of people's wallets. Big difference.

[rinsd]

42. There are nealry 9 miilion uninsured children now, how can you claim it will affect a small number?

I think most parents would like to buy insurance as well. Parents are not refusing to get insurance because they hate their children.

The same can be applied most people without children.

Since the goal is to make insurance affordable and upping preventative care and decreasing emergency room visits are a key element, why not mandate coverage for all?

"It's one thing for funding to be sketchy - it's another to say, you will pay a certain amount and I won't tell you yet what that amount will be. One is about fighting for a budget bill in Congress, the other is about taking money out of people's wallets. Big difference."

This slays me. You are more worried about single healthy twentysomethings (OBama's envisioned opt out group) than working families.

[HeraldSquare212]

43. He has the sme objective as she does of brining the cost down

and opening up govt programs more.

I don't have an issue with mandating insurance - if you say what it's going to cost before you ask someone to agree to a mandate. Anything else is just a request for a blank check.

[CTyankee]

6. But we already have "mandatory" with Medicare taxes!

You are taxed for Medicare from dollar one of your paycheck, payroll deduction. You cannot "opt out" from that.

Perhaps also you are unaware that when you do go on Medicare, you are required to sign up for Part B (drs visits) by which the monthly fee is deducted automatically from your SS check, unless you are already enrolled in an alternate plan (which is my situation). If you do neither, when you DO sign up for Part B you will be assessed a "fine" in the form of a higher monthly fee out of your SS check.

There are plenty of other mandatory aspects that the government at all levels puts on you in the way of various taxes to support schools, law enforcement and fire protection.

Mandatory health insurance is no different...

[HeraldSquare212]

9. If that's her proposal, why doesn't she say that? You're just guessing that's what it will look like

[CTyankee]

45. Well, nobody knows what it will look like. But I offer Medicare as an example for you.

I just want people to know that the mandatory thing exists in their lives even if they don't know it. Why they don't know it, especially in taxation, I don't know. I can understand their not knowing it about Medicare -- I didn't either until I reached 65 and signed up-- but there it is!

I am saying that this is a false argument. We pay plenty for stuff that is mandatory. We just don't call it that...

[joshcryer]

30. Affordable means "leave Iraq, rollback Bush's tax breaks."

How hard is this to understand?

[Ravy]

3. People with children can afford it more than those without.

:hide:

[Blackdog4241]

4. Why are we letting...

Our candidates tell us that we have to buy insurance.
We should be telling them that we want health care not insurance.
Insurance is for cars and houses not health care.:grr:

[SteppingRazor]

7. I don't think there's anything wrong with Hillary's plan.

In fact, in some ways, I prefer it to Obama's -- and I say that as an Obama supporter. I think both plans represent a great initial stepping stone on the way to universal health care.

[Occam Bandage]

10. Political palatability and enforceability.

[John Q. Citizen]

11. Both palns suck. Get real! We need single payer. After Obama clinches the nomination,

we need to continue to organize to push him to change.

[CTyankee]

46. Great idea! I agree. However, it will be hard to get thru Congress. n/t

[ContinentalOp]

12. A universal mandate makes it easy for people to scream "don't force me to buy healthcare"

Which is dumb but it's the political reality. A mandate that only covers children is much easier to defend. You can counter the idiotic "don't force me" sentiment with the equally dumb but effective "why won't anyone think of the children" sentiment. ;-) Plus health care for children is much less expensive than coverage for adults.

Other than that they seem pretty similar so I go with the one that seems a little politically smarter.

[Vinca]

13. It isn't ok. Neither candidate is offering what the American people want.

It's a wash as far as I'm concerned.

[Sanctified]

15. I don't trust her plan since she is the number 2 recipient of Insurance Industry donations.

Number 1 being Rick Santorum, how do you trust a health care plan from someone who is bought and paid for by the industry that is out to fuck us over. She basically took their money and is now forcing us to buy their insurance, if you think insurance rates are going to go down keep on dreaming.

[rinsd]

18. So you trust Obama's plan?

In 2008 Hillary was 4th while Obama was 5th in open secrets list of money accepted from the insurance industry.

http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/recips.asp?Ind=F09&cycle=2008


Amongst Prez candidates Hillary came in 4th and Obams came in 5th in open secrets list of money accepted from the insurance industry.

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/select.asp?Ind=F09

[Sanctified]

41. He is not forcing me to buy their insurance she is. n/t

[rinsd]

44. So you have no children?

Do you think you will be ineligidble for any public plan?

[cd3dem]

17. Because Obama is the Messiah come to save us all!!!

[Blackdog4241]

20. That didn't take long...

For some A-Hole to chime in with nothing to add to the subject.:mad:

[PurityOfEssence]

48. He's beyond perfect; how dare anyone sully our ears with heresy

You keep hearing this kind of response because this is how the adulation of this immortal by the faithful strikes many of us.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

21. Obama will heal the lepers and make the lame walk again

[rinsd]

23. this was a relatively polite policy discussion before you posted.

Please go away.

[jillan]

22. CNN is reporting that people who say health care is a #1 issues are going for Hillary in TX.

[Quixote1818]

25. Both are flawed plans. It seems like Michael Moore explained how people who couldn't

afford insurance would be helped out with Obama's plan. That would seem like a better way to go than enforcing people.

[samer]

26. Mandates dont work

Obama has given an example how in Boston the mandate isnt working.
If we had a universal health care system there would be no reason to mandate it.

What Obama is doing is smart, lets lower health care costs and make it affordable. cut out the lobbyists and special interests that fund the Clinton campaign and while doing that set up a plan for true universal health care.

[rinsd]

29. So why does Obama mandate children if mandates don't work or are unnecessary?

"What Obama is doing is smart, lets lower health care costs and make it affordable."

And how does he seek to make it affordable? (I know the answer but I doubt that you do)


"cut out the lobbyists and special interests that fund the Clinton campaign"

Which must be why he is right behind her in accepting of insurance, HMO & hospital special interest dollars. :eyes:

"and while doing that set up a plan for true universal health care."

True universal health care is single payer and Obama has specifically abandoned that principle in the debates recently claiming he was never for single payer and does not see it happening in this country.

They must have a new flavor koolaid over at Obamanation.

[samer]

34. Obamas plan

"And how does he seek to make it affordable? (I know the answer but I doubt that you do)"

By getting rid of the paper work associated with keeping a non E-Filed system.

"Which must be why he is right behind her in accepting of insurance, HMO & hospital special interest dollars. :eyes:"

He accepts money from private downers that donate to his campaign, he also gets money from plumbers, cable guys, race car drivers and lunch ladies. He is making over 1mil a day in donations because people believe in him, i am sure a lot of those people work in hospitals or a other medical industry.

"True universal health care is single payer and Obama has specifically abandoned that principle in the debates recently claiming he was never for single payer and does not see it happening in this country."

When did Obama or Clinton say this? Do you have a link?

[rinsd]

39. That is only part of making it more affordable.

Other parts include preventative medicine and the power of the markets allowing public plans to compete with private ones.

"Which must be why he is right behind her in accepting of insurance, HMO & hospital special interest dollars. :eyes:"

He accepts money from private downers that donate to his campaign, he also gets money from plumbers, cable guys, race car drivers and lunch ladies. He is making over 1mil a day in donations because people believe in him, i am sure a lot of those people work in hospitals or a other medical industry.

So let me get this straight, Hillary accepting money from people in the insurance industry is horrible. Obama accepting money from the insurance industry is a-ok?

You do realize the source for claiming Hillary is #1 in lobbyist money and other such claims rely upon the very reports I quoted earlier. So you do not get to play the game where you bash Hillary while ecusing Obama when using the same source material.

"True universal health care is single payer and Obama has specifically abandoned that principle in the debates recently claiming he was never for single payer and does not see it happening in this country."

When did Obama or Clinton say this? Do you have a link?

I don't think Hillary has spoken about single payer.

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/01/a_new_clinton_video_slams_obam.php

http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck/2008/01/05/fact_check_obama_consistent_in.php

[goodgd_yall]

37. The reason Obama doesn't want to mandate it

is that he doesn't think a mandated health plan will pass Congress; that's all there is to it. Doesn't have anything to do with people not being able to afford it---because, after all, isn't the point to make health coverage affordable. If his argument is that he doesn't want to make people buy insurance they can't afford, my question would be---then why don't you make it affordable?

It's REALLY because he thinks not having a mandate will make the plan more palatable to Congress.

[CTyankee]

47. No, I think his argument is that people don't have health care because they can't afford it,

not because they are slackers who don't want to pay it.

If he wins, this will be the test...

[Little Star]

35. Social Security ring a bell?

[anonymous171]

40. Because

it allows people without children to opt-out.