A view from across the pond

[dbmk]

Hi!

Being from Europe I thought it might be of interest to some of you, how this whole spectacle is being seen, by at least one person, over here.

First let me set the background; 33 years old, IT professional from Denmark. (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/da.html for the curious ones)

Not active in politics, but actively interested in and opinionated on it. My voting records has been to the left of the middle in varying degrees (yeah, we actually have enough parties to make a distinction :) ). And given that our mainstream left would prob be the far left of the democratic party, that would probably have me labeled as a communist in parts of your country. :)
My view might not represent all people over here - some have little clue that its going on, and most only get the headlines - but just know that there is no inherent animosity towards the US in Europe. We are just waiting for our friend to get better.

Anyways, on to the relevant stuff (at least I hope it will be seen as such):

When the primaries started, I was "Oh, thats starting now. Hillary will probably win. possibly a female president of the US. Interesting. That Obama guy I saw in 60 minutes is in too. If nothing else it will be interesting to see how a candidate of colour will do. Edwards is in it again? Doesn't strike me as someone who will pull it off, but as far as I can remember from the previous campaigns he is actually a decent guy with some good opinions. Don't have a clue about the rest of the guys.".
That was more or less it. The coverage here is pitiful at the beginning of the primaries and it does not evolve to much more than intensifying headline sniping beyond that. I honestly thought it would be a walk in the park for Hillary. We are aware of the vast difference in the public opinion on Hillary across the country, over here - reasons being what they might be - but I didn't think it would figure much in the primaries. I didn't really look into the candidates or their stance on whatever issues. I had no problem with Hillary possibly being the next president. None at all. Just about anybody to the left of Bush would do at that point, but Hillary was definately looking like a more than decent applicant for the job.
(Yes, we all remember Bill here as well, for good and bad. I liked him as a president, and think he was a fool to open up the gate for the ruining of his legacy by behaving like he did. Whether it was then blown out of proportion or not. But it wasn't really a factor in my opinion of Hillary.)

Then we had a few smaller stories that Obama wasn't doing that bad. And there was a link to the video by Will.I.Am done over Obamas speech in New Hampshire. And most of all it triggered me going to YouTube to find the speech it self. And I was pretty impressed. It struck me that we could be in for something interesting here. And the man could actually put two words together and seemd to have a decent grasp of right and wrong. Not quite like the american politicians we have been accustomed to seeing over here for the last many years.
As I then embarked on quest for complete knowledge on the matter, Hillary of course showed that she could do the same(I think this was just after Edwards bowed out). Many hours spend reading news articles and their websites later I was pretty convinced that there was not many hairsbreadth difference in their specific politics. Some, but not really anything truly defining.

So I started sucking the net dry for videos from rallies, debates and what have you, to see how they would come across as persons. And I came here to get more of a grassroots view.
What I then saw the following weeks though, was one candidate that excited his listeners, audience and prospective voters by speaking on his, apparent, conviction that a new approach was needed and that the country needed to be united in their efforts to face the coming challenges. I'll get back to that.
In Hillary I saw someone who talked a lot about what she would do to make things right and better for this, these and those (so does Obama, so there is no inherent critisism in that). The style was a bit more begging. You know, when the tone goes "Aaaaarent this exciiiiting?!". EDIT: But I generally found her ideas and goals good and sound, mind you.

To get back to Obamas by now relatively famous "words": I think I am old enough and interested enough in the political game, to not be fooled by retoric and empty promises. Or at least not to be fooled without decent research. And the more I read and heard him speak on issues, especially regarding foreign policy that of course have a slight preference in terms of issues here, the more I saw a politician that was willing cut a heel and toe to get unity, progress and legislation on issues. Without cutting off the foot. His stance that he _would_ talk to leaders of nations that was not quite viewed as friends, can not have been a move for votes. There is simply nothing to it that lends itself well to voters that normally have national security high on the list. Its a policy with long term paybacks. Not something that sells in election campaigns. I think he truly feels it is the right thing to do. (I think it is too btw. :) )
And there was several indications in his legislation history and community work that signalled that all the talk about hope, change, doing whats right and telling people what they need to hear, not what they want to hear - was no empty words. I sincerely think his record backs up his intentions as he has laid them out in his campaign.

Hillary has a bit more muddy baggage. Her voting record on the war, how ever a big mistake and atrocity I think the war is, cannot rile me up. Its a slight deficit perhaps, but almost all other possible candidates did or would have done the same. Then there is the whole infiltration of commercial interests, ties to Dubai billions, with whatever financial/moral corruption that carries with it. Not saying anything dubious happens. But I refuse to believe that you handle that kind of money with that origin without cutting moral corners here and there. Thats my subjetive belief speaking of course.
Her legislative records looked ok though, if a bit ordinary compared to Obamas.
And she bases a lot of her claim to experience on her stint as first wife. And while that carries some weight of course, it rings to much of entitlement by blood than actions. (I live in a kingdom, and I find it an abomination in a so called democracy). But I still think most of that is overruled by my perception of her as a very competent and engaged politician, and should she - which I find incredibly unlikely by now - win the nomination, she would be a fine president.

But I am also sure that such a presidency, if it could ever result in that given the current poll numbers, would not change much in terms of the vast partisanship that seems to be plagueing your politics. Her campaign, however much her supporters deny it, simply undersscores that idea.
And partisanship is your main problem as democrats atm. Because the right/needed majority seems to end up on the other side if they are told to choose between what they probably see as two extreme choices. So you end up with someone the far ends of the spectrums, playing tough partisan politics for the next 4 years. He does not have to cater to the 50% that feels he does not represent them at all.

There is a tendency among some posters here to label republicans as vile, undemocratic and uncompromising creatures. And that is probably true for the ones that have been able to set the party line for the last 8 years. But there simply is no such thing as no middle in politics. They just haven't been represented in a long time. They have been victims of yoyo politics where every shift in president is determined to overrule and overdo anything the other side did in the previous term(s).

Everything points to Obama being able to draw in those people. And what is mostly overlooked, but just as important, if will also open the door for some more moderate republican politicians to stretch a hand across the aisle as they see their constituency doing the same. And thats when you start see results rolling in. All or nothing attitudes rarely results in All. And not for more than 8 years if that much.
For that fact alone I favour him as your president. Even if that particular part has little direct relevance to me. I simply don't wan't to see the pendulum swining wildly anymore. Not if it gives us 8 years now and then with Bush/Cheney clones.

Where Obama really shines for me, is his outspoken stance on acting according to laws and your constitution - and just as importantly according to right and wrong. I find nothing in his history that makes that empty promises.

And he seems supremely positioned as a redeemer of the US in the eyes of the world (sounds worse than it is - but Bush was just voted nr 1 most dangerous person in the world according to europeans - twice in a row). His multicultural background, and to be honest the color of his skin, will go a long way in immediately chaning the world opinion. But first and foremost I trust him to make really great, well thought out and long term changes to the US foreign policies. If he manages to actually surprise someone here and be the real thing; Intelligent, deliberate, able to make changes and be more of a mediator in world politics than a sledgehammer he will be received as a hero when he comes to Europe.

But whomever it should be, I sincerely hope that all the people that will be disappointed by the eventual choice, will not do something as frightening as not vote for the democratic candidate. This is no time for purism. Yeah, shots are getting fired from both sides, and boohoo the other candidate is hitting your candidate. If you can truly say that you would not have supported the other candidate had he/she been the only one, then you get a pass on that. It would still be frightening though.

Because it all siginficantly pales compared to another 4 years of the Bush machine.

So to sum it up;

We would really like for you guys to get us a democratic president of the US. Anyone of the remaining candidates will do. And do fine. Please.
(I would like for it to be Obama, but I am not picky)

Well, if you managed to read it all, thank you and please keep in mind that English is not my first language, in case you found some errors and/or weird sentences. :)

(oh, and please don't be so mad at each other. You all want more or less the same in the end.)

Ok, flame on! :)

[maseman]

1. Wow GREAT Post!

I love to travel and learn how others view the US. I know the view has been quite garbage the past 8 years. But thank you for spending time to give us your two cents. It is so refreshing to see a good post.

Thanks!

[Greyskye]

2. Welcome to DU

And thanks for the perspective!

:thumbsup:

[PretzelWarrior]

3. terrific post! (and not just because you like Obama)

I am so excited about the prospect to not have our chief representative of the United States repair relationships around the world and clarify the U.S. stance on issues of international importance.

This embarrassment of a president should be humiliated into exile.

Thanks again for giving people the long view that the Democrats have two GREAT candidates left. (I'd even say when Edwards was still in we had THREE great choices).

[dbmk]

10. I was to late in this..

.. to really get a good look at Edwards. But seeing a lot of support for him here, still, I have read up a bit, and I am pretty sure I would have liked him a lot too. He seems closer to european lefties than most other candidates you have fielded. Obama and Hillary included.

[leftofcool]

4. Nice Post

I think you nailed some good points. The only place you lost me was calling Obama a "redeemer." This puts him a bit too much into the "magic man" mode but I do understand what you were trying to say which is we need a president who will make America once again the shining and welcoming light it used to be for the rest of the world. Very nice.

Left of Cool

[Big Blue Marble]

13. I think the OP is saying redeemer in the sense

the we as a nation have been lost to the world in the last 7 years. He as president will redeem our place among nations.
We once again will have cache on the world stage.

[babylonsister]

5. Thank you so much for sharing, and your english is exceptional! nt

[peacock]

81. Yes, your English is great!

[Big Blue Marble]

6. I salute you.

You are truly a citizen of the world. Thank you for your research and your analysis. It is always great to get the prospective
from across the pond. IMO, you certainly recognize all the salient reasons why the United States and the world needs
Barack Obama at this time. Thank you for your participation in our primary process and for your great insights.
We appreciate it more than you know.

Oh and edit to add: Welcome to DU. Hang around the general election should be very interesting to follow.

[PretzelWarrior]

7. I want even more European perspective

it's interesting how much people in Europe still remember Bill Clinton fondly.

If Obama is president and goes to Europe, he will fill soccer stadiums. Seriously.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

33. A $2 Pound and an $1.48 Euro.

Perspective.

[Patriot Abroad]

77. $1.50 today, W00T!

time to hit the big apple for some shopping . . .

[Finite]

67. You're right

he would be popular, but frankly after Bush you could make a potted plant president and it'd appear in front of sellout, adoring crowds!

[Patriot Abroad]

79. And one would hope . . .

That he'll be too busy sorting out the government to take gratuitous tours of European soccer stadiums, at least for the first while.

[peacock]

82. Democratic Presidents are generally

popular over here in Europe. Nixon was very unpopular with the Vietnam War. Ford was so-so. Carter was popular. Bush I was not. Reagan, became popular in uniting Europe (but was not totally popular, even when that happened as it was not as unproblematic for Western Germany to absorb Eastern Germany, to begin with). Clinton was extremely popular, as he was and is, in the US. Bush II was not popular, became popular after 911 when most of the world were sympathetic towrds us, but became unpopular after the Iraq war (but living here in Denmark, myself, there has been little to no self reflection as to Denmark´s cooperation in the war). In general, at least here in Denmark, and seen from here in Denmark, popular opinion towards the US has been best during Democratic presidencies.

On the whole, most Europeans are pro-American, in a basic sense but criticize us as we do internally (some of us) when we engage in bully politics and unfair wars.

[peace13]

8. Thank you for taking the time to put this down.

It is good to know that the world is watching. Many of us over here are paying attention and are trying to get this ship back on course! Best wishes to you and yours. Peace, Kim

[Whisp]

9. Excellent post! K&R!

[cali]

11. What a terrific, thoughtful post

Thanks so much for it and for joining the conversation. I sure hope you plan to drop in often!

[FrenchieCat]

12. Excellent recap of what you have observed and your own political process

in determining what our Democratic Primaries have been about.

I very much agree with you that Barack in the White House will signal that the U.S. is serious about redeeming itself for what it has allowed to happen over the past 7 years, and to greatly improve the current perception that the world has about us.

Electing Barack Obama as President of the United States will be a turning point in American history, bar none!

Thank you for your opinion!

[HCE SuiGeneris]

14. There are those in my extended family that are described by

the "middle of the road" classification. They will be voting for Obama. We must overcome some of the partisanship if we are to attain a majority and set this country back on a path that will restore credibility and respect. Thank you for the OP. Heartily recommended.

[Lisa0825]

15. K&R!

Welcome to DU! And your English is better than most native speakers, BTW!

:hi:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

16. Where in Europe?

You left that out of your profile.

I've been to Europe and it's fantastic.

Why the secrecy?

[dbmk]

22. Not so secret :)

I am pretty sure I provided the location in the beginning - and even a link to more information. :)

But I guess I might have drowned it out. :)
Didn't plan on it being that long. But one letter took the other.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

25. Unfortunately, I have the great disfortune of not being able to read.

You'll have to bear with me.

En skaal. :toast:

[eowyn_of_rohan]

56. Yeah, thanks for the link

We stupid Americans wouldn't have had a clue where Denmark was otherwise :eyes:

[peacock]

87. Yes, some Americans

when I say, that I live in Denmark, ask me what language people speak in Denmark, or ask me if I can say something in Dutch! Oh well.

Here´s the more interesting part. Then people ask, "That´s a "Ssocialistic Country, isn´t it?". When I explain about the tax system in Denmark, that yes, we do have a tax rate that averages 50% and that sales tax is 25%, but that hte taxes ensure that everyone has health care, including health care for psychiatric illness, that everyone can get a higher education, that people who cannot work because of a chronic disability receive a pension from the government that they can live on at a decent standard of living, most I have spoken with, even Republicans say - wow! They say that they would like a system like that. Danes themselves, time and again, have been polled as to whether they would rather reduce their taxes and have more privatized payment for services and they say NO!

Go figure.

Danes are also consistently the most "happy" people in the world. I would not call Danes happy. I am a psychiatrist and I know that many Danes are depressed. However, what those polls reflect, is that Danes are generally satisfied as to their basic social situation, as all basic needs are colectively insures. This is Malthus in action.

This is what FDR and Truman wanted for the US and what we need to continue to fight for over here.

[druidity33]

26. the OP says Denmark. nt.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

30. Yep.

I only read at a second grade level.

[stellanoir]

17. Happy to give you your well deserved 5th rec.

Thanks for sharing your insightful perspective.

Your English is more fluent and articulate than many, many Americans.

Here's what Will I Am wrote about why he made that video

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/william/why-i-recorded-yes-w_b_84655.html

It's thoroughly cool.

I'll PM you with something else when your post count is up.

Thanks again.

Welcome to DU

[Kokonoe]

18. Thank You, that was perfect English

:hi:

[truedelphi]

19. As far as your use of English,

I assumed through almost the entire length of your writing that you were an American ex pat.

Then you asked for us to overlook your writing in English, and I realized my mistake.

Very good summation.

However one thing that might offer you a bit of extra optimism, in terms of Obama, is if you could catch outtakes of the Larry King show with Michelle Obama. Maybe there are YouTube clips olr something.

Here is a woman who is articulate and has a lot of moxie.

She also grew up working class and she is a huge difference from Hillary's spouse, Bill, with all his Dubai deals and his selling out over the last eight years.

I think that Obama being black will force him to hear from the more disadvantaged working class. I don't think that either Hillary or Bill understand how regressive the current income tax is - the tax takes almost 85% if not more of the average middle income person's disposable income. And we cannot even declare our health costs as tax right offs for the most part!

The average person in this economy has money only for food, rent and gas for their car. And their utility bill. And many people have to trade off which of those they will do without if there is even the slightest emergency.

[dbmk]

27. Oh, I have seen her

And she certainly comes across as a strongwilled lady. I think anyone disappointed in, possibly, not seeing a woman as president, can take some solace in her being in the WH - expecially compared to McCains spouse.

[tpsbmam]

20. Love it!

Thanks for the "view from across the pond." Very interesting view it is! And yes, I read the whole thing. Your English is a hell of a lot better than my Danish! Oh hell, at times it's better than my English. ;-)

[Araxen]

21. Very nice post! =)

[yellerpup]

23. Thanks for sharing your insights

and for your mature and well observed comments on our process. I couldn't agree with you more.

[Tresalisa]

24. Nope. Nuh-uh. No way. No flames from me!

Great post, nice to get your views, and welcome to DU! :hi:

[Cronus Protagonist]

28. Getting nominated isn't the same as getting elected

You didn't address the electability factor in the general election when the candidates will face the general public, not just their fan base. And what do you think of that, taking into account the US's well documented black flag operations, the strong liklihood of a "terra-ist" incident between now and the election, given the GOP candidate is calling for 100 years of war, and the fascist (government/business wedded together) control of the media and the endemic racism in America?

The fact that the fascist media here are all pulling for Obama, for the most part, during the primaries is an indicator of their complete wedded bliss with our government. Hillary started out strong, but the negative blanket media coverage has taken her down to the underdog status. Since when did the media become actually "fair and balanced"? the answer, of course, is they are not and have not been for decades. So once more, why are they kissing Obama's ass during the primary and kicking Hillary as if she were actually a witch, if not to promote a flawed Democratic candidate and influence the election in their favor?

With Obama as our candidate, and I like the man personally, we just might be able to, once more, snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and wind up with President McCain.

[dbmk]

35. Not quite agreeing

I thik I addressed it a bit, as far as mentioning the polls not supporting her winning a GE over McCain. And I find it hard to beleive that the polls are the result of a deliberate plan by a fascist right/media or the likes. I think you are giving the Obama campaign too little credit.

As far as Hillary being kicked, its pretty hard to tell whats animosity towards Hillary and what is reaction to her blowing her campaign spectacularly. Man, woman, Hillary or Obama - going from given winner to losing 11 in a row is not something that would generate favourable headlines for anyone.

As far as the day to day coverage I am a bit handicapped, so can't really speak for that. But it seems to me that kicking Hillary has been the order of the day for a long time. So the only suspicious thing would be for them not to do it.

[Cronus Protagonist]

55. You made some good points there

I guess we won't really know what's going on until after the fact, as either argument could be supported by the evidence. About losing 11 in a row generating bad coverage, did the election precede the cofverage or did the coverage influence the election. And bear in mind that the coverage is not one-sided it's Obama = JFK/MLK andHillary Shrillary all the time 24 hours a day ongoingly and prior to each election. I don't think the elections create the news here any more, the "news" influences the elections.

[peacock]

89. You are a wonderful objective

observer.

Please continue to post here.

Though I also live in DK, I am an American and am partisan and you are not.

Thank you once again, dbmk.

[ChangeMe]

108. Im an American in Germany

I also spend alot of time in other E.U. countries. Not everyone here likes Obama. Some people here ridicule all this swooning and slogan parroting about change. It adds to the idiocy opinion as regards Americans.

[dbmk]

110. Quite the opposite here then.

Everyone I talk to see an articulate politician that has the right approach on a lot of issues.

Anyone taking the stance you describe obviously have done relatively shallow appraisal. Even more shallow than they claim him to be.

It doesnt take more than half an hour of light research to kill the notion that he is all words and no substance.

[mtnsnake]

96. This is why I love so many of your posts, CP

because of posts like this one. :thumbsup:

[eissa]

29. Very much appreciated

I love to hear international perspectives on American politics. We know our country was not alone in its suffering for the past 8 years -- we're trying our best to fix things so keep your fingers crossed!

[flor de jasmim]

31. Du skriver meget bedre paa dansk end jeg skriver paa engelsk...

(men jeg bor i Danmark).

For the rest of you - it was very well thought out and I agree wholeheartedly with the articles expressed.

[peacock]

90. Sandi, bor du her i DK også?

Wow a thread of "Danes" here.

Danes do interest themeelves in politics and I am amazed as an American and ashamed, that many Europeans know more about what is going on here and are more interested than Americans. That is possibly due to people in Europe having experienced so many wars at close hand.

[cooolandrew]

32. Your english was fine, very well made points.

[Freedomofspeech]

34. What a great post...thank you.

It is so interesting to read the thoughts of someone from "overseas". Very well put and I must say I do agree with you.

[geiger]

36. hey, you, on the other side of the pond:

:hi:

check back again!

[PunkinPi]

37. Thank you for your post...and much needed perspective

This is one of the best posts I've seen in GDP in a long time. Welcome to the DU!:hi:

on edit: K&R

[eShirl]

38. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I am always interested in the perceptions of people outside the U.S. media bubble.
(Also, I happen to share many of the same opinions you have so eloquently expressed! :D )

[Voice for Peace]

39. Thanks for your perspective, Denmark!

I never want to see another "Sorry Everybody" http://www.sorryeverybody.com/
website in my lifetime.. though it meant a lot at the time, especially the
compassionate messages that came from around the world.

[caseycoon]

40. Excellent post! Welcome to DU, dbmk!

All very well said, and YES! We MUST get together & vote for whoever wins the nomination. I sincerely hope all the anger will settle down soon.
I look forward to more posts from you.
Again... welcome! :hi:

K&R

[progressoid]

41. OK, here's a flame...

Your English is better than a lot of the natives here!

:applause:

[Martin Eden]

42. "please don't be so mad at each other"

Good advice.

Given what we have gone through during the presidency of GW Bush, we are all understandably angry to begin with.

Unfortunately, we're turning that anger towards each other in this primary.

[Recursion]

43. You use some turns of phrase similar to a Danish friend of mine

Just kind of funny to see that. But thanks for your analysis and welcome to DU.

Let me particularly praise one section:

There is a tendency among some posters here to label republicans as vile, undemocratic and uncompromising creatures. And that is probably true for the ones that have been able to set the party line for the last 8 years. But there simply is no such thing as no middle in politics. They just haven't been represented in a long time. They have been victims of yoyo politics where every shift in president is determined to overrule and overdo anything the other side did in the previous term(s).

A-f**king-men.

[peacock]

91. Yes! Very well said

[Eurobabe]

44. When you get tired of combing the web, come to my house

I have a SlingBox and a TiVO, I watch everything I can get my hands on re: the upcoming election. Germany is not that far away from Denmark. :hi:

Welcome to DU. Your views are similar to what I am hearing on the ground in Bavaria, anybody but Hillary. (I'll vote for her if she is the nominee, but I'll need a noseclip!)

[puebloknot]

45. I agree that a black man in the Office of the President of the United States...

...would send a signal to the world that America is growing up a bit, and that we may be ready to sit as an equal with other nations of the world -- rather than acting as a bully with no manners.

Although I fully understand the need to move forward with a bipartisan coalition of those who support both the Democratic and Republican ethos that have historically been the underpinning of this country, I am still deeply concerned over what appears now the very likely brushing under the rug of crimes of state which have occured over the last seven years. Failure to hold the current administration to account will forever tarnish the character of America, and We the People are now very concerned about whether there will be anyone, in this administration or the next, who will take the necessary steps to do so.

As the daughter of a WWII soldier who fought in Europe, I wonder if Germany would have evolved to what appears to be a mature modern state, without the holding to account which took place at the end of that war. Justice, as opposed to revenge, must have its seat at the table.

Thank you for this stellar post. Once we get America back on track, where there is no fear of being held as a terrorist at one of our airports, please give consideration to coming here as an English teacher! :)

[femrap]

85. Why wouldn't having a woman as Prez

be a signal to the world that The Feminine is equal to the Masculine?

Looking at the world, it is women and children who are being killed, oppressed, starved, raped, thrown from their homes, and maimed with fistula and genital mutilation.

[puebloknot]

103. Well, I fully agree with that equality stance, as well.

Whether it is fair or not, I think there's a movement in the air to get beyond Bush, Clinton, Bush, Clinton. I have mixed feelings about all that.

I do think that Hillary is being unfairly targeted as a shrill woman, but I also think she has not handled it well. But as my daughter said last night: "Who could?"

I also think that a strong argument can be made that Hillary Clinton, Female, has egregiously supported an illegal war and occupation that has led to the killing, oppressing, starving, raping, maiming and throwing from homes of millions -- our own troops and at least a million Iraqis of both genders.

I fullly believe Obama would have done the same thing Hillary has done, had he been in office at that time.

The feminine principle is much needed in our chaotic world. Just being a female does not guarantee the implementation of that ethic.

[femrap]

105. I believe that in our macho culture

that HRC or any woman running for Prez has to show that she can be Commander in Chief...Peace is a dirty word, it seems. And the word Feminine is synonymous with weak.

Our Military-Industrial-Congressional (Eisenhower wanted to add Congressional but decided not to) Complex rules our nation, if not the world. There is a piece of the War Machine in every one of the 435 Congressional Districts that employ lots of people! Are people willing to change focus and put their energies and jobs toward creating life instead of death? Renewable energy alternatives, for one. Electric Cars. A whole new way of living that sustains the Earth instead of taking everything out and off of it.

You gotta admit that when we persuaded them to start cutting down the Amazon, the end is pretty near. The last continent to rape is Africa...W just visited and ships are now stationed off its coast. Military bases are next. Africa has tons of minerals that are used in our technology, as well as oil. We have seen how the people of Nigeria have been treated by the oil companies...like dirt. Maybe MSM's push of BO has a greater purpose....convincing the Africans that we are bringing democracy to them?!

Penny Pritzker (sp?) is BO's Chief Finance Officer for his campaign. This is a VERY wealthy family and who came up with the idea of sub-prime mortgages and their bundling. There's an artilce on Consortium News today.

I sure wish Gore had run.

[peacock]

92. I sincerely agree with that

We must impeach Cheney and Bush now and in that order. I have been for that since 2002. If ever there was an appropriate time to impeach it is now.

[puebloknot]

104. Unfortunately, to open that can of worms will expose the culpability...

...of Dems as well as Republicans. Nancy Pelosi is standing strong on her "off the table" stance -- taken against everything we've ever stood for, in my opinion -- and shall not be moved. She is acting unilaterally, in the same mold as Bushco. She needs to be removed.

From my viewpoint, impeaching Bushco and getting Pelosi as President, no matter how temporary her reign might be, is a nightmare of magnificent proportions. He lack of ethics and incompetence in the Speakership are enough. Let her not ascend to the Presidency!

[Greylyn58]

46. Thank you for your wonderful post

and for allowing us to see our politics through your eyes and from a different prospective.

You must think we have lost our minds right now with all the bickering and nastiness leaking from every corner of DU. This years elections are extremely important as I'm sure you know. Our next President will have so many things to repair after the last 8 years of G.W. Bush, not the least of which is our image among our European friends.

Your English by the way, is terrific. I doubt even with a little knowledge of your language I could do as well. Oh and Welcome to DU.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

47. Nice post Dane

Your English is better than mine. Very interesting, keep posting.

[Swamp Rat]

48. Hejsa

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[chknltl]

49. Someone outside the fishbowl looking in has a better view often times.

I especially liked the notion about Europeans having a shift of opinion regarding America should we elect a Democrat. That bit about bush being voted worlds most dangerous man two years in a row was nice. We tend to feel the same way. Many DUers wish our two candidates were even further left than they are...some you may have noticed are complaining! I suppose we are happy enough that the two we have to choose from are as far left from bush as they are. (Oh and either will stomp Senator mCcain even with our screwed up voting machines siding against us!)
Thank you for your opinions. I'll ask you to keep them coming. Welcome to DU dbrnk
c

[peacock]

93. Yes indeed!

[Blue State Bandit]

50. Cheers!

[12string]

51. Thanks for your insight

I enjoyed your post.It made me wish more Americans,including myself,were as diligent in our quest for knowledge.Anyway,thanks and peace.12string.

[casus belli]

52. Thanks for taking time to give your perspective.

It's always interesting to see how other parts of the world view our politics. Hopefully our next president will make up for the last 8 years of disfunctional foreign policy.

PS...your English is very good. ;)

[Fedja]

53. Mmm another one :)

The world is looking on, there's no doubt about that. Here's my observations from the good ole Balkans (Slovenia namely), I'll try to keep it as brief as I can. :)

The Baby Boomers in my region often comment that America and Europe often disagree on what a "good US president" was. The ones we tend like are the ones that reach across the international boundaries and represent the USA as a calm worldly companion. Historically, we liked the presidents that travelled a lot, smiled and shook hands a lot, and made a concentrated effort in mediating peaceful steps in foreign conflicts. Americans, on the other hand, often saw these presidents as the wasteful tourist type. You guys (and gals) have insight into the local and economic matters that elude the rest of the world, and you demand that this field be handled and managed carefully. Few presidents in the past (that I'd know of) succeeded in combining the two seemingly exclusive aspects of the presidency as well as Bill Clinton did.

Now.. having said that, I was eagerly expecting to see the candidates for the primaries when the race was starting for this coming election. Deep down, I was absolutely convinced, positively sure, without a shadow of a doubt, that no Republican could win the next election. If they managed to conjure THE Jesus with his halo and all, to run for the Republican party, if the UCLA endorsed said Jesus, I still believed that the party's name had been soaked with the stench of ineptitude and rampant destruction to the point where it would take close to a decade to stand a chance.

The MSM (which is our first line of information) then served us their prediction. Hillary and Giuliani. I put the beer down and went to check my temperature. Then I looked at myself closely in the mirror and to my surprise, I appeared to be fine. So there it is, I said, the Republicans have given up. They've put a monkey up on the pedestal and threw in the towel.

So my expectations were confirmed. It's going to be a democrat, which essentially made the primaries more important than the GE in my eyes. Republicans are dead and buried, so the 2 Democratic candidates remain.

------------------------

Now.. in addition to the rationalle posted in the OP, voting track records, hardly discernable policy platforms... there's one major aspect that the Mediterranean voters consider in their elections, one I see overlooked to some extent on DU.

The question is, "Which one would you love to sit down with over a beer?"

The answer to that question addresses your subconscious observations of the candidates. It taps into their sincerity, openness, willingness to consider other people's opinions, humility, and just a general attitude. Bill Clinton had that, anyone would love to shake good ole Bill's hand and chat away about recent events. His laugh was sincere, his smile was real. He seemed genuinely good hearted, and the whole Monica fiasco only reaffirmed his humanity in my eyes. Of all the mistakes a president can make, this was one I could giggle at.

In my eyes, Obama has that same quality. Maybe not everyone sees it, maybe some are too split from the demonizing snipes that have come from supporters of both candidates... but from over here, I feel like could talk weather with Obama. I feel like I could lean back and ask him if he saw the basketball game last night, then follow up with what he thinks about abortion. I feel like the man is sincere enough, secure in his beliefs, and humble enough to not give me answers he thinks I want to hear.

Sadly, I don't see Hillary that way. Personal preference? Maybe. Subjective opinion? Sure. But I'm a European. I like the US presidents that travel and smile and shake hands without the proverbial politician mask. I like the US presidents that lead the world, not preach to it. And I like presidents that can giggle when someone is critical of them and a lesser person would reply bitterly.

I liked Edwards more than Obama because of what he said. I like Obama more than Hillary because of how he says the same thing. But deep down, I'm absolutely convinced that the Democrats will win. It's inevitable. It has already happened. So be careful on who you choose in the primaries, this is your presidential election. :D

[ClayZ]

54. Thanks for your post! Good to have a perspective

from those looking on. Some of us can't see the forest for the trees in here!

Peace and Love from the LEFT coast of the USA.

K and R

[pnwmom]

57. Thanks for the support. And welcome to DU! n/t

[DrZeeLit]

58. Welcome to DU and Thank you for such a thorough and reasoned post.

I appreciate hearing from anyone outside the US.
We often forget how others view us, because so many Americans do not travel. Some do not even leave hometowns or states. And are often, sadly, proud of their ignorance.
I love to travel; it's one of my great passions in life!
I remember riding a train through Italy right after the war began to get really ugly.
I wanted to pin a "Canada" button on my shirt. Or at least a button that declared "I didn't vote for him!"
Ugh... I could feel the disdain for our leaders and policies just about everywhere I went.
Still, people in other countries are so open to discussion and as I travel, I find more connection than hatred.
They WANT to talk with me. They WANT to know what I think and feel. I admire that spirit. I hope I reflect the same as I want to know them and understand them.
I think, jmho, in other countries people are aware that leaders and policies do not reflect individuals.
We should take a page (remembering the idiocy of "freedom fries and all that went with).

So, BRAVO for confirming what many of us believe -- the world really wants to connect with us.
Hopefully, soon, we will,too!

[Mira]

59. Damn - good job with the English - I can barely believe you. I should know, I'm originally

German and have struggled with the syntax for the 40 years I've lived in the USA.
I get quite a number of calls from Europe, everyone is watching and praying for us to elect a Democrat and get on with saving our country. Much along the lines you are speaking of.
Thanks for taking so much time to report and tell your insights.

[Kitty Herder]

60. Wonderful post! Thanks for taking the time. I especially like this part:

"(oh, and please don't be so mad at each other. You all want more or less the same in the end.)"

We seem to be forgetting that a lot lately. Thanks for reminding us that we are on the same side.

[peacock]

95. Yes!

[Pooka Fey]

61. Have a look at this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x497983

Spend some time with the info, if you can stomach it. This book shows how we American voters "got you guys" a democratic president in 2004.

We also "got you guys" a democratic president in 2000 when we ELECTED Al Gore (who won Florida by the way); but the Supreme Court shut down the recount and installed Bush in the White House against the will of the voters. I wish the European news agencies would get that simple fact right. I'm so sick of hearing how Bush was "elected" in 2000.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2001/111201a.html
http://www.rinr.fsu.edu/winter2005/features/battlefield.html
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/03/11/palmbeach.recount/
Another good resource is Greg Palast, the investigative journalist.

We also "got" a democratic Congress in 2006 and a fat lot of good that has done us. Has the Iraq occupation ended? Has BushCheney been impeached? You've got to look below the surface to get an idea of what's really going on here.

[marions ghost]

72. your post is right to the point, Pooka

while a Dem president will be better, it is only one step on the long road to fix what is wrong with this country. And we need to look at other countries as examples of how to go about it, instead of being so arrogant. When Michael Moore did the piece in Sicko about health care in France, it was an eye opener to many Americans. This is why we have a crappy situation of exploitation by our "leaders" here. Because Americans put up with it. They don't even know what is to invest in the people for a change.

Yes it's necessary to look below the surface and understand the degree of corruption that is at the root of everything, driving these disastrous last few years of "yoyo politics" (as the OP so clearly puts it).

[Usrename]

62. That was a great read. Thanks for an outsider's viewpoint.

And welcome to DU!!

:toast:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

63. Best Post I've Seen In GDP In Weeks I Think. Thanks!

You did great expressing yourself there, and it was amazingly refreshing.

[emmadoggy]

64. Wonderful post! Welcome to DU!

Your English is fantastic, so no worries about that. Thank you for sharing your views from outside our little bubble. It's so great to hear an observers prospective.

By the way, I have to also give a little shout out to you as a Dane! I'm half Danish (All of my great-grandparents on my mom's side came over from Denmark.) My grandma's father died when she was very young and so she never knew much about that side of her family. About 25 years ago, she found some old letters and did some research and voila! She ended up contacting and eventually meeting several long lost family members in Denmark. She ended up going over to Denmark for a visit and several of the relatives also came over here to visit as well. It was really wonderful for the whole family and something my grandma really cherishes. So I just wanted to send a little Danish wavey from me! lol. :hi:

I hope you'll stick around and ride this crazy wave with us, wherever it ends up! We could use a lot more calm voices of reason like yours! :)

[AmBlue]

65. "...waiting for our friend to get better."

"...know that there is no inherent animosity towards the US in Europe. We are just waiting for our friend to get better."

There are not words to convey the depth of gratitude and sorrow that this lovely phrase invokes in me. Gratitude for you and other friends around the globe having faith in us. Sorrow for where we are just now and for the effect it has on us and the rest of the world.

So, thank you for praying with us-- and for us-- to pull through this dark and terrible time in our country. There are many broken hearts in this nation today, and many of us working our hearts out to turn this Titanic around. Please continue to believe with us, and for us. It is truly heartwarming to know that we are not alone.

Regardless of who wins in November.....

We will take our country back. We must.

[Neo-wobbly]

66. Thanks for the outside point of view; 1 point

My only comment is that you seem to have stumbled over the real problem in American politics without picking it up: you noticed that you (moderate liberal in Denmark) are far left of the Democratic party, but that no one seems to be speaking to the "middle". What happened was that they redefined the "middle" to be somewhat right of center, and have left the liberals out in the cold.

Hillary Clinton is despised by Republicans as a "liberal", but she is, in fact, a moderate conservative. Obama is somewhat more progressive, but if he lands on the left side of the line, it's only by an inch.

I am nearly convinced that the flame wars between the Obama and Clinton camps, especially on this site, are nothing more than GOP trolls trying to keep that balance shifted in their favor by a) demonizing anyone who disagrees with both nominees (i.e. real liberals), and b) causing rifts in the Democratic Party (Hillary supporters won't vote for Obama in November, etc). This way, if McCain wins, it will be because Obama/Clinton are "too liberal," while if Obama/Clinton wins, it will be because they are "conservative Democrats," and either way, we get a conservative president.

It is an important lesson, when analyzing history, to find out who benefits from a situation; in this case, the GOP is winning, and has been since Bill Clinton took office.

[marions ghost]

75. good point! & well said

I'm not sure Europeans can even relate to the fact of having no real liberal voice in government. You touch on how the GOP has exploited this lack of choices and created a hall of mirrors with little "reality" that anyone can trust.

The issues are far more scary than most people realize. We can hardly call this a democracy at this point. It remains to be seen whether Hillary or Obama will address these underlying issues if elected.

[pinto]

68. Thanks for the post. It's interesting to get a European perspective.

and, Welcome to DU.

:hi:

[Arugula Latte]

69. It's good to get your input. Thank you!

Welcome to DU! :toast:

I only wish Americans knew as much about European politics as you know about ours.

[crispini]

70. Thank you!

:toast: :loveya:

[colorado_ufo]

71. SUPER post! Glad to have you on board!

[loudsue]

73. Thank you for that great post & the link on Denmark. Population just over 5 million.

I want to move there! What a great place!

Your post really does offer some good perspective.

:hi: Welcome to DU!

[dbmk]

78. Don't pack yet..

I am not exactly ecstatic about our current government (hey, we are part of the "Coalition of the Willing") and the prevalence of racism and xenophobia in our population and even politics is far to rampant to be proud of.

But ok, we dont have the room for the really far left, right, up or down.

One thing that really differentiate perhaps, is the role of religion.

If you enter politics on a base of religion or use it either as a reference or reason, you are more less viewed as a dork by the vast majority.

Oh, and apparently, 60 Minutes ran a story on this, we are the happiest people in the world. So its prob not that bad here. :)

If you can take 50%+ taxes, that is. I pay 67% atm on the top of my earnings. And like it.

[peacock]

98. As another person living in Dk

yes, that´s how it is here. We enjoy paying our taxes because they go to health care, higher education, pesions, etc.. We glady pay for that and when the politicians want to reduce taxes and reduce services, we disagree.

As dbmk points out, all is not idyllic here. I, as an American living here would say, due to undue American influence. We are now dealing with private hospitals and private insurance companies and American accrediting organizations and that is messing up the Danish health care system. But otherwise, it is mostly ok here compared to over there.

[femrap]

74. One question for our friend

across the pond: Do you see misogyny in our politics? I believe Europe is decades ahead of the US regarding views of women.

Sometimes I look at the US as a teenager...the country has been around for over 200 years but now is behaving like a wild tom cat. Europe on the hand has developed into the wise adult and is hoping the that US can survive these horrible teenage years.

Thank you for the post...I enjoyed it very much....especially how you would be regarded as a Communist in the US...as am I. LOL! My local Dem Party shuns me because I want IMPEACHMENT! I truly wish we had more than 2 parties.

[dbmk]

76. Good question

I don't think I have the exposure to your media or vice versa for me to be completely informed in terms of giving a good answer. :)

But given what I have seen, I'd say; Misogyny no - but a clear lack of women in politics and other high ranking positions in society.

But it also has to viewed in terms of me being from a country that has more or less killed the stay at home mom - a concept that, and please correct me here if I am wrong, seems to still be very common in the US.

As politics works these days, it does favour what can be percieved as masculine traits. But that can only work if the voters favour it too. As long as they do, men will always feel more at home in the game. Question is who can break the mold - and be rewarded for it.

I don't find that misogynystic (sp?) in it self. In some jobs you want people with certain traits for whatever reasons. If you don't reward women and men equally for those traits - thats when the misogyny kicks in. I haven't seen that happen - but as I said I have a very limited stream of information.

It seems more to me that Hillary tries to overcompensate and try to play by, and top, the masculine rulebook of politics. At a time where people are slowly getting fed up with it, as the worst examples of it walks the halls of the WH.
Enter Obama, looking thoughtful, deliberate and willing to compromise.

The story of her campaign is the story of bad timing. The approach, tone and execution became outdated the day Obama entered the race. There was no evolution to point to the fact. It just happened. Tough luck really.

But the fall of course makes excellent news.

[femrap]

84. I believe many of the US

problems stem from the Evangelicals moving into the political arena with their version of the Bible being the ONLY right way to live. Our separation of Church and State is crumbling...upon which this nation is founded.

How BO can overcome these people's rigid ideas and form unity with them is, imho, impossible.

Under Reagan (with little relief under Clinton) and Bush, women have found a HUGE backlash toward their advances of gaining freedoms and rights. For example, Bush told the Bureau of Labor Statistics to remove the category of Working Women outside the home.

Thanks for the response. I was in Denmark long ago...loved it. I even named a cat Tivoli!

Oh...let me give you my theory on why BO and HRC are facing off. The MSM totally ignored Kucinich (speaks way too much Truth for the masses to hear) and Edwards (wanted to fight The Corporations and this is NOT allowed in US). But since the MSM is owned 80% by 5 rich, ugly white Republicans, they can determine who gets coverage and since Americans are fairly stupid and only watch the evening news (if that), the 'horse race' was going to be BO vs. HRC. Why? IMHO, the Republicans wanted to utilize the strategy of 'Divide and Conquer.' Let's pit the women against the blacks. They certainly did not want to see John Edwards winning...no way. He was showing the American people the root of our problems--The Corporation. There are very bad feelings in the Dem Party toward each other. But time heals all wounds, I guess.

I believe the republicans want BO to win because they can dig up lots of new dirt on him to use in the General Election. HRC has no new dirt. And as I look back through history and see how Americans vote: they may say they want change, but they certainly don't vote that way. Anyway...we'll see what happens.

[peacock]

101. Hmm, very good again, dbmk

I think that Hillaty Clinton has thought that she had to come off as "tough" to get the nomination. As a female, she has perhaps "overcompensated". Not a criticism but a comment on the current stae of affairs over here. In doing so, HRC has been seen as cold, etc.. When she shows her female side, she actually wins points (except when she teared up at one point due to fatigue (I think) when she won points but was criticized for being a cry baby or for trying to score points). I think misogyny IS playing a role here. I think Clinton has been damned for paling the strong role and would have been damned if she didn´t. That´s the state of our Nation. It´s also majorly due to the post 911 mentality, that our leaders must be "warlike". So, amny elemnets at play. But misogeny is at play here.

[Fedja]

106. Misogyny is rampant..

Proof of that? Hillary is trying to act manly to get voter support. Sure, call it "tough" if you prefer the term, but that's what it is. If there was any semblance of equality for women in politics, then she could run as a woman. She would stress the benefits this might bring to the country if she had to address the issue at all. Trying to prove to everyone that she's "as tough as the guys"... Well, there's a loooong way to go there.

As for the US being a teenager, I don't know. Sure, they act as one on the outside. A teenager that knows little to nothing about the world around him, who seeks refuge in saying the unknown surely sucks. A teenager who picks on the fat kid or the asian kid at school, because they're different. Surprisingly though, it doesn't seem adolescent on the inside. The 2-party politics have an iron grip on the country's future, and the vast majority of the population has long been brainwashed into believing that this is fine.

It feels like a 1984-esque country club establishment internally, where being a "Democrat" and a "democrat" are the same thing. An establishment where being a "socialist" has nothing to do with "companionship". A system where the right to live and speak is negotiable, if the conditions are (portrayed as) extreme enough. A system where there is no legal way of removing a failing president who has overstayed his welcome. A system where one MUST be publically christian in order to be electable in either of the parties.



Therein lies the problem, with adolescence comes the sense of freedom. With adolescence comes the sense of adventure, of endless possibilities. The very foundations of your political system must be shaken, the 2-party limitation taken down. Immagine what a whole party of John Edwards-like people would do to the playing field? The whole spectrum would have to adjust to the left of where it is.

[peacock]

80. dbmk, thank you for your analysis

I am an American who has lived in Denmark the past 32 years, so I recognize your perspective and appreciate your entering the debate here. You are right on, in everything you say. And, being an American citizen and a World citizen, I especially appreciate your last 7 paragraphs, wherein you appeal to all, to not bicker so much, just make sure that we elect a president from the Democratic Party. I was an Edwards supporter (and you are correct, in my opinion at least, that Edwards was to the left of the 2 remaining Democratic Party candidates), but just as you, I would appeal to all to suport the Democratic Party´s candidate in the General Election.

We must end the Republican regime, ASAP. We must have a united front once we elect our nomineee. I am sure the candidates who also ran, will appeal to their supporters to vote for the Democratic Party´s nominee and I hope all of the candidates who ran in this primary election and in past elections, will amke a united front to turn every Stete in the Union, Blue, at every level of government.

We MUST do this, for our future as a united world.

P.S. (Tusind tak, dbmk for en flot analyse og opfordring til besindelse). I said: ("A thousand thanks to dbmk for a great analysis, and an appeal to sober-mindedness").

[katty]

83. Thank you - and we WILL get the world a Democratic prez!

[Beregond2]

86. Thanks

Thanks so much. It is difficult in America to get a feeling for what world opinion is, our media being what they are. It helps to hear from "the horses mouth."

[LibertyLover]

88. An excellent post

Denmark is one of my favorite countries in Europe - fantastic museums! My husband likes it too. He spent a week there in 2003 at Viking Ship Museum in Roskilde learning how to sail a Viking ship. I have to say that I like Hillary and would prefer her as the Democratic candidate, but you are correct that we don't need another 4 to 8 years of failed Republican policies, so whomever is the candidate, Obama or Clinton, I will be voting for them in November.

[vickitulsa]

94. I read every word, and loved it.

Thanks for taking the time to give us your perspective on our "election situation" -- and an excellent perspective it is you have, indeed!

IMO, here is your best summary line:

"All or nothing attitudes rarely results in All."

And so we get NOTHING, in the end, with such attitudes prevailing!

Bad as they are, however, the highly negative and nasty posters of late to DU are very likely to be "trolls" or disruptors, spending so much time here in an all-out effort to derail what many folks in America -- and apparently in other parts of the world -- see as a "sure thing" for the Democrats in November. Or at the very least, those disruptors may hope to push forward the Dem candidate which would benefit "Them" the most in the coming years.

(We all know who "They" are, right? Or at least we now that they exist, mostly out of sight like a real version of "The Magnificent Oz" behind the curtain manipulating everything we see happening. The ones who have real power and control over world events.)

I fervently hope (and do believe, for the most part) that DUers see these malicious meddlers here for what they are. The mud all over their posts should be a dead giveaway, since one can't sling it without getting a lot on onesself.

Last point. I had had a British boyfriend for almost three years when 9/11 occurred, and we broke up over his anger at Americans for what G.W. Bu$h did after that fateful day. He couldn't seem to understand, even after a long visit here to spend time with me and experience the U.S. firsthand, that most of us have little to no power to affect our "leaders'" actions, and have not had such power for a very long time. Probably not since WWII, if even then.

I am very glad to hear, both from you and one or two other non-Americans who posted in this thread, that my ex-boyfriend may have been a poor representative of Europeans in general. I had hoped this was so, but I know enough about myself to recognize I tend to be unduly optimistic ... until I look deep beneath the surface, at least in my own country, and see just how corrupt our entire political "process" is these days.

I'm glad you found DU and hope you will stay on board a long while. As others have said, it's good to hear your voice! :hi:

Perspective is always helpful, and in fact it has become my watchful byword for some years now. When caught up in stressful events, it is all too easy to forget about the BP (Big Picture) and neglect "the P word" -- Perspective!

Thanks for offering us yours. :)

[mtnsnake]

97. Nice post. Very kind of you to take the time.

[AGirl]

99. why would people flame your pro Obama post? This is Obama underground..

[Tatiana]

100. Welcome!

:hi:

Thanks for your interesting and informational perspective on our polical system.

Hopefully, we will be election a much less "dangerous" leader very soon!

[kryckis]

102. As a Swede...

I can only agree. When Bush Jr was elected for a second term my heart sank through my stomach. It was so heartbreaking, and I looked at my father who shook his head and said "what a bunch of ignorant fucks", and it made me sad to know he felt that way. But this is why seeing what I see right now, from ways away, is absolutely encouraging.


I'm in a country where everyone votes. Where young people are involved in politics. Where it doesn't really matter anyway. Where there isn't any urgency for change. Where my vote will not decide whether or not we torture prisoners, bomb other countries, or let people sleep on the sidewalk. I vote anyway.

Please. Vote for the democratic nominee, be it Obama or Clinton. Your vote matters more than ever. 4 years of McCain would be a disaster for you and everyone else.

[dbmk]

107. Thanks

Just wanted to say thanks for all the kind words.

Reading it over again, it struck me that I might not have made it that clear that I find Hillary to be a very competent politician with her heart ultimately in the right place. I am not too thrilled with her campaign style, but in many campaigns she prob wouldn't have stuck out much - its just contrasted by something quite different.

Anyways; Thanks again and good luck to you all, never mind what candidate you support.
If he/she is a Democrat, that is. :)

(Oh, and thanks for the heart, whoever sent it :) )

[mmonk]

109. Thank you for the post and taking the time for putting it all together.