I'M SICK OF THIS MI & FL SH*T

[boston bean]

Why is it always Obama who's the victim of some really bad conspiracy.

When in reality, if those states are not counted, he comes out ahead in delegates by not counting a large swath of votes.

The stance by the DNC hurts Hillary and helps Obama.

Of course he is willing to "play by the rules" because disenfranchising these voters helps him, who does that sound like? B*sh.

Florida changed their primary date before Dean came down with his new "rule".

Well what about the Golden Rule of the Democratic Party, that says count all votes.

I am willing to concede a new primary in MI in all fairness, but there is absolutely no reason to not count Florida.

Dean has created this clusterfuck and he should be ashamed of his stance today on the talk shows. Who the fuck does he think he is, that he can tell the democratic voters of FL and MI that he's going to send them to bed without their supper because their brothers and sisters broke some new rule. It's like guilt by association with no evidence. These people went and voted. Count their Votes!

Screw Dean!

[slick8790]

1. Uhh I'd check on your timing there.

How sure are you Florida changed their date before this "new" rule?

[boston bean]

6. yep

[anigbrowl]

10. So when did this new rule appear?

Can't wait for Madfloridian to drop into this thread.

BTW MssDemm, you do know, don't you, that even if we added the results in right now it would only give Hillary a net gain of 57 delegates?

[Debi]

73. Really really sure?

DNC votes on 2008 nominating calendar - August 2006

http://www.democrats.org/a/2006/08/new_primary_cal.php

Florida legislature votes to move up primary date - May 2007

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/04/us/politics/04florida.html

[Debi]

74. Ugh dupe

[writes3000]

2. And many people DIDN'T vote because they were told by many, including Hillary

That the primary wasn't real. What about them?

[boston bean]

5. 1.7 million people voted in the Dem primary up 30%. Many other found their way to vote. Those

people you are talking about wasted theirs by not voting.

[writes3000]

20. Isn't it interesting though that FL was one of the very few states

Where Dem voters didn't drastically outnumber Repub voters? In fact, Dem voting was below Repub voting.

Many, many, many people stayed home.

If you cared SO much about fair voting, you'd be demanding a re-vote. Be honest, please.

[Maribelle]

12. Hillary said no such thing. It was Kerry and Obama that contradicted all Florida officials.

[writes3000]

15. There IS a Hillary quote where she says the Michigan vote won't count. Yes, there is.

[Maribelle]

27. Ok, sorry. I was thinking of Florida.

Please post a link to the Hillary quote regarding Michigan if you find it. Thanks.

[writes3000]

51. Here's a link to the quote.

http://factcheck.barackobama.com/factcheck/2008/02/22/reality_check_on_clintons_clai.php

[Maribelle]

69. But as she stated - she stayed on the ballot for a reason.

And the reason was to counteract Republican efforts. Would not that be encouraging voters to vote for her?

Sorry, I was not paying attention to Michigan, but I have given full concentration to Florida and know all about that from soup to nuts.

[writes3000]

57. And here's another example of Hillary's campaign's double talk on this.

"Clinton Top Delegate Adviser Harold Ickes Voted For Democratic Party Rules That Stripped Michigan And Florida Of Their Delegates. "Harold Ickes, a top adviser to Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign who voted for Democratic Party rules that stripped Michigan and Florida of their delegates, now is arguing against the very penalty he helped pass. In a conference call Saturday, the longtime Democratic Party member contended the DNC should reconsider its tough sanctions on the two states, which held early contests in violation of party rules. He said millions of voters in Michigan and Florida would be otherwise disenfranchised - before acknowledging moments later that he had favored the sanctions." "

[Maribelle]

68. It looks to me as if many feel a mistake has been made, including ...

Governor Crist of Florida who signed the bill that moved the primary date to January 29th.

[writes3000]

79. The problem is they all have personal stakes in the outcome

So it makes all of them suspect now that they've changed their tune.

I agree that a compromise needs to be made. But I don't think it's a simple as letting one side stomp their way into getting what they want when many people did not get a chance to campaign or vote in the first bogus process.

[Cass]

39. There was record turn out in both the democratic and republican parties

due to a hot property tax amendment on the ballot. No way did people stay home due to the DNC thing - they were out in force due to the property tax amendment.

[Kittycat]

3. Wrong place to come in guns a blazing against Dean. This mess is MI & FLs to clean up.

[MonkeyFunk]

44. Why?

Dean's not allowed to be criticized here? Don't be silly.

[Vincardog]

4. The OP sounds like BS

[HughMoran]

28. voting is BS?

weird attitude.

[Vincardog]

37. lying and stating that "Florida changed their primary date before Dean came down with his new "rule

is BS.

Blaming Dr. Dean for the cluster fuck created by the Republican legislatures of these states is BS.

It is not about being anti voting, it is about being manipulated by the radical right wing nutz.

[HughMoran]

45. Should we do the right thing and rectify the situation now?

This is a close primary and these states might make a difference - can we have a re-vote so that all Democrats in all states have a voice?

[Vincardog]

82. Fine as long as the parties that created the mess- The State legislatures pay for it

[Debi]

76. Not the republican legislature

all but one Democrat voted to move up the date. In fact a Democrat brought the bill to the floor.

This was about Democratic Party leaders wanting to ignore the rules put in place by the DNC and have 'influence' over the 2008 race.

Guess they got their wish - but probably not in the way they planned.

[Vincardog]

84. So you agree it was not Dr. Dean's fault.

[Debi]

90. 100% not Dean's fault. n/t

[Labors of Hercules]

7. not too bright though...

MassDemm, come on. You're smarter than this. :eyes:

[Whisp]

8. seems like playing by the rules doesn't apply

to Clinton, or some of her supporters.

yell and scream at the idiot politicians that thought they could play it their way without recourse, not at Dean.

Why the hell should the rules be changed for Her Fucking Highness?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. As A Floridian This Will Be The Second Time I Have Been Disenfranchised

Once by my party and once by the opposition party...

If my vote is not counted this time or there is no re-do I will never vote for a Democrat or Republican again as painful as that will be as someone whose very milk he was breast fed on was Democratic...

How dare they take away my franchise?

[slick8790]

11. Talk to your state party.

Chairman Dean and the national party are not at fault here. FL Dem party tried to play hardball and lost. Now they can caucus.

[boston bean]

13. It's Deans Rule, they want to count the votes. so Chairman Disenfranchiser Dean is the one at fault

[slick8790]

23. Well actually it's the rule's committee's rule.

So stop bashing Dean because your girl tried to cheat and lost.

When you break the rules, you pay the price. Simple as that. They knew what they were doing when the early primary bill went through almost unanimously with support from both Florida parties. This is a spit in the face of the Democratic party. Because this is not a state, federal, or local run election. This is an election run by the national democratic party, and therefore they don't have to give anything to people who flagrantly violate their rules.

[boston bean]

30. Obama is a vote disenfranchiser. Hillary hasn't cheated. Barack ran ads

gave press conferences there. Get a fuckin grip. If the shoe was on the other foot you would be screaming like I am.

But because it helps your candidate you roll out the trash talk which is false.

Any Obama supporter who does not want the votes counted and Obama wins this way will be enfranchised. But you can count on the Hillary supporters (who are the majority in florida) to be pissed because of this disenfranchisement.

[slick8790]

35. Perhaps your argument would have some creedence if Hillary herself

hadn't said that the FL and MI primaries were not gonna count. But the fact is she was against them before they happened, and now that she won them, she wants them counted. Dirty tricks.

[boston bean]

55. perhaps yours would if he hadn't of said he would seat them. nt

[MonkeyFunk]

52. Howard Dean says:

[Maribelle]

17. Ask Dean why he changed the rules from 50% to 100% after

the law had been passed.

[Debi]

77. Dean didn't do anything - the Rules and By-Laws committee imposed the punishment

available to them.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/25/AR2007082500275.html?hpid=topnews

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. Doesn't Matter

I took my ninety year old mom on what was a cold day for her to vote... Why should there be a caucus when there was a primary...

If there's a re-do it should be a primary where everybody can participate...Caucuses discourage older people, the physically challenged, people with young children, working people from voting... I know my ninety year old mom couldn't go to a four hour meeting and have people hector her on her choice...

If the party fucks me I'll fuck them...

If my vote doesn't count, again I'm done with politics...

[slick8790]

25. Whatever.

If you're really that selfish that you think your oh-so-bruised ego is more important than stopping president mccain, go right ahead.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. How Would You Feel If You Were Robbed Of Your Franchise

My old man got a Purple Heart for losing his eye and getting shrapnel in the gut in the Battle Of Sicily so we could maintain our freedoms which included voting...

A man who won't stand up for something will kneal for anything...

[slick8790]

46. Well I don't own a franchise.

But I understand that primary voting is a privilege and not a right, and the Democratic party has a right to punish people who violate it's rules. You retain your constitutional enfranchisement to vote in local, state and national elections. Freedom to vote in a primary is not a constitutional right.

[ColesCountyDem]

18. Both times you were disenfranchised by Republicans.

In 2000, GWB and his minions did it to you and in 2007, Gov Crist and his Republican lapdogs-- err, Legislature-- did it you. Why take it out on the Democrats, who did NOT disenfranchise you?

:shrug:

[Obamanaut]

67. Don't know about MI, but the state legislators here in Fla voted to

change the primary date. It is true that the majority in the legislature is Repub, but it is also true that when the voting for/against the bill occurred, there were precious few (less than 10 in both houses combined) 'nay' votes. The Dems didn't even put up a token resistance.

edited to insert a word

[Maribelle]

70. That's not entirely true. Republicans could have passed the bill without a single Democratic vote.

But what the Republicans did was to expand the bill until it was a full election reform bill vital to Florida, especially with a paper trail for votes. Democrats felt they would have sounded the death nell on their political chairs had they voted against it. Besides, when they voted for the election reform, the DNC and the RNC rules stated they would only lose 50% of their delegates, and they felt the needed election reform was worth the risk.


It wasn't until after the bill was voted on, the DNC changed the 50% to 100% and striped Florida of all its delegates to punish Democrats for something they really had no control over.

[Obamanaut]

96. You mention ..."democrats felt they would have sounded the

death knell on their political chairs..." For me, it has worked that way. If one of them is up for reelection this Nov., I will vote for his/her challenger.

It just seems to me that if they thought it was wrong, they should have voted against it. I liken it to HRC stating about one of her votes that she voted for it but wanted it to fail. Or even the IWR vote saying that she didn't really think it would lead to conflict (my words, not hers).

What ever happened to standing up and saying something is wrong?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

14. WHAT?

Let me review what happened:

1) The DNC said Florida and Michigan delegates would not be seated because both states had broken the DNC regulations. That was final. I was PISSED.
2) I was therefore shocked when H. Clinton came down to Florida and said she would "try" to get the votes counted. People had already NOT voted due to the DNC decision that the votes/delegates would not count.
3) Now I know she was collecting eggs. If the DNC so much as PONDERS re-doing the voting, I'm going to be livid. What kind of JOKE do these people think voters are?

[boston bean]

19. Don't count your brethrens votes. You are a good democrat! nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

22. They're f*cking with voters as if we were dog crap nt

[boston bean]

24. Yeah you are right, Obama's voters feel good about this, but Hillary's are pretty pissed

because if he wins this way they will be franchised. Get it.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

26. I don't care who thinks what. To LIE to the voters this way and manipulate us is shit nt

[boston bean]

32. Did you vote, do you live in FL, if you didn't and you do you're an idiot. And a totally see throug

one at that.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

36. A lot of people didn't vote because the DNC said our delegates would not be seated.

If they lied, they are going to have to admit they were lying.

[Cass]

47. But there was record turnout due to the property tax amendment

on the ballot. People didn't stay home because of this...they were out in force due to the property tax amendment. Record numbers in both party primaries.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

50. There would have been a lot more if the DNC had not said they were NOT going to count the votes....

regardless of what else was on the ballot (which, by the way, was a crock of shit, because at the end of the day, the property tax amendment was all about cutting funds for schools and other such typical GOP agenda bs.

I have friends who were going to vote ONLY for the primary, and then the DNC pulled this stunt, so they didn't. If the DNC changes its mind with every whim, it's time to get rid of the whole F DNC.

[Cass]

62. Record turnout is record turnout.

People came out in droves because of it hence the record turnout.

I'm sorry your friends chose to stay home and not vote on an important state issue because they thought their primary vote might not count, but loads of people did come out.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

72. So you are going to dictate when people can vote and if they choose not to vote in a state issue,

then they should be penalized in a federal one? And that's regulation # what? The DNC advised the votes wouldn't have any value. WEre they lying? It's beginning to look like they were.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

56. As A Floridian You Must Have Seen The Joint Public Service Announcements By Nelson And Martinez

Urging People To Vote...

[Sarah Ibarruri]

80. And these people are the president of the DNC? What's Dean? Some stand-up comic lying his ass off?

Please!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. Thank You For Disenfranching Me

Let me see if I got this straight...

Mr.X can walk into the Aventura Mall, hold up a clerk at Macys, be convicted of a felony, serve his time, and have his rights restored, vote in the Republican primary and have his vote count but my law abiding ninety year old mom can't have her vote count because she is a Democrat...

How dare they steal our franchise?

[flyarm]

83. let me enlighten you about this sanction and Obama...

Obama was the first candidate to come to florida ..right after he signed the pledge to tell Floridians he would count the delegates and seat the delegates..against the rules he had just signed..this was before the ink was even dry on his signature..

he broke the rules before the primary..he was the only candidate that broke the rules and pledge.


eat crow much?????????

and Obama was the only candidate to break his pledge and ran commericals in the state of Florida before the Primary...yes he did ..no other candidate broke their pledge..

yes he got permission from the SC dem party to run the commericals he knew would be shown all over florida for the week before the election..but he broke the Pledge he made..no other candidate did that.

ahh and pssssssssss..we all know it in the dem party in florida!!..and this has circulated all over florida..to all dems ...who missed it in September..


http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/sep/30/obama-vows-do-whats-right/?news-breaking


Obama Vows To 'Do What's Right'

By WILLIAM MARCH and ELAINE SILVESTRINI The Tampa Tribune

Published: September 30, 2007

Fundraising Totals | Primary States | Where They Stand

TAMPA - Barack Obama hinted during a Tampa fundraiser Sunday that if he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, he'll seat a Florida delegation at the party's national convention, despite national party sanctions prohibiting it.

Obama also appeared to violate a pledge he and the other leading candidates took by holding a brief news conference outside the fundraiser. That was less than a day after the pledge took effect Saturday, and Obama is the first Democratic presidential candidate to visit Florida since then.

Obama and others have pledged not to campaign in Florida until the Jan. 29 primary except for fundraising, which is what he was doing in Tampa.

But after the fundraiser at the Hyde Park home of Tom and Linda Scarritt, Obama crossed the street to take half a dozen questions from reporters waiting there.

The pledge covers anything referred to in Democratic National Committee rules as "campaigning," and those include "holding news conferences."

Obama seemed unaware the pledge he signed prohibits news conferences. Asked whether he was violating it, he said, "I was just doing you guys a favor. … If that's the case, then we won't do it again."

[spanone]

16. no one campaigned in florida...the results are flawed

[Maribelle]

29. 6.5 million households were in the target area of Obama's campaign ads.

How many people does that add up to?

[TAWS]

54. If Clinton showing up on election day and celebrating isn't campaigning, I don't know what is

[boston bean]

58. that was after the vote

you can't be that ignorant can you?

[flyarm]

85. Obama did! he is the only one who did see my post #83 above! eom

[SoonerPride]

31. I agree. Michigan was like Russia with only one name one the ballot

I'm sick of their crap too.

Too bad they don't understand rules.

I tell ya what, Oklahoma has decided to have OUR election for president this August, screw whether everyone else says election day is in November.

We can do what we want.

How's that for fair?

[MichiganVote]

63. God you people are misinformed. You're jsut reading shit off boards aren't you

The only names OFF the ballot were Edwards and Obama who requested that their names be removed b/f the ballots were printed.

[SoonerPride]

66. Oh I'm sorry, I meant only one REAL name on the ballot

All those Gravel votes should count.

Sorry if I look past the Dodd-Biden-Kucnich crowd ad focused on those who actully had a snowballs chance of garnering this party's nod.

And that was exactly three people.

Two of whom removed their name because Michigan was creating anarchy by making up their own fucking rules in the middle of the voting process agreed to by all parties.

Sorry, I wasn't more clear

Sorry you're disenfranshised.

Move on down to Oklahoma.

We'll be voting for President in August, so there's still time to get down here.

[MichiganVote]

88. Try Prozac

[Debi]

81. Biden was on the ballot? n/t

[MichiganVote]

87. yes he had already quit tho'

[Debi]

91. Not wanting you to be misinformed -

http://www.michigandems.com/2008Primary.pdf

<snip>

Q: What are the choices on the ballot?

A: The Democratic ballot will have 6 choices:
Hillary Clinton
Christopher Dodd
Mike Gravel
Dennis Kucinich
Uncommitted
Write-in

<snip>

++++++++++++++++++++=

(Taken from a memo to Michigan Dems by Chair Mark Brewer)

Are you sure Biden was on the ballot?

[yourguide]

94. and Biden...

3 of the 4 front runners were NOT on the ballot.

[latinolatteliberal]

34. Process arguments are always full of shi*

I agree that it is all too easy (convenient) for Obama to argue along process lines in this case. I happen to think that process arguments are almost always about the underlying substance. But, with FL and MI there is no process argument now that doesn't have a transparent underlying substance motive. Some solutions favor Obama and others favor Clinton. Nobody can claim innocence here.

As for reasons to not count Florida, I'll offer one:

It is said that a poll is a snapshot in time. An election is no different. Elections just have larger population samples. Preferences are always in flux, so we agree that we will artificially fix the poll results to the levels seen on election day. Because we were all told that FL would not count before Floridians headed to the polls, we need not legitimize that particular snapshot in time. Let each candidate campaign to the best of her/his abilities there, announce beforehand that this time it will be counted, and maybe we can have a contest that means something.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. New Primaries In FL And MI Are The Only Equitable Solutions

We can never create the conditions that originally existed but we owe it to the voters to create those conditions as closely as humanly possible...

[elfin]

38. Dean didn't "create" it - Crist and Granholm did

by scheduling their primaries against the "rules" - which were agreed to by the Dem Party Leadership.

Crist - because he wanted to screw with the Dems, Granholm, because she is scrambling to make her impoverished state relevant and to get some of those financial goodies from primary spending in Michigan.

Both are Hillary supporters - Granholm due to past Clinton connections, Crist, because the Rethugs do NOT want to run against Obama, plus, stretching things out and making the DNC pay for it hurts us in the Fall.

[ruiner4u]

40. Your use of SH*T offends me.. It is trite and immature.. n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

48. Sometimes Profanity Expresses Our Outrage In Ways That Polite Language Never Could

Oh- Thusday night is usually the night for prayer meetings... I doubt you will be exposed to scatalogical language at such events...

[ruiner4u]

49. LOL....BJ jokes make the baby Jesus cry

[jmg257]

42. Why is it always Hillary trying to change the rules..IF it helps HER? Sorry, re-votes, or no count.

It is what EVERYONE agreed to (even noble Hillary - BEFORE she realized she might need them).

The voters SHOULD insist they get their fair say - in a another vote.

[writes3000]

53. By the way, you also have Hillary's campaign to thank for this. Look inside...

"Clinton Top Delegate Adviser Harold Ickes Voted For Democratic Party Rules That Stripped Michigan And Florida Of Their Delegates. "Harold Ickes, a top adviser to Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign who voted for Democratic Party rules that stripped Michigan and Florida of their delegates, now is arguing against the very penalty he helped pass. In a conference call Saturday, the longtime Democratic Party member contended the DNC should reconsider its tough sanctions on the two states, which held early contests in violation of party rules. He said millions of voters in Michigan and Florida would be otherwise disenfranchised - before acknowledging moments later that he had favored the sanctions." "

[boston bean]

59. atleast he can admit when he is wrong. nt

[cali]

60. call the waaambulance

MassDem is having yet another tantrum. The rules are the rules. Tough shit to anyone who doesn't like it. And hooray for Howie. If nothing else it's good to see who's willing to throw over good dems because they're not doing what some egocentric little hillbots want.

[GoldieAZ49]

61. It shows the Dems cannot even run a primary without disenfranchisement

of the voters. So much for pointing the finger at the Republicans.

Yet the Dems claim they can run the country.

I would not be surprised if McCain wins by a landslide after all this crap makes everyone in this country sick of hearing about FL, MI and Super Delegates,


bunch of idiots and Howie is the leader of the pack.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Goblinmonger]

97. Oh, look, the nOOb

got the Obama supporters with a homosexual joke. Good one.

[AikidoSoul]

65. You're wrong about Florida changing its primary date "before Dean came down with his new 'rule'"

We in Florida watched the Dems in Florida Legislature squirm and giggle while being threatened with the penalties for breaking the rule which was already on the books.

[Maribelle]

75. No that is totally correct. Before the bill passed, the DNC were going to take 50% of the delegates

after the bill passed the DNC raised it to 100% to strip all delegates away.

The RNC said 50% before the vote, and left it at 50% after the vote.

And did anyone notice that the Republicans are not having any problems with this like the Democrats are. And did anyone notice on the night of the Primary, Republicans got 100% coverage, and Democrats did not even get mentioned on most networks?

This was a crushing blow to Democrats all across Florida with their record-shattering turnout - - and it was the DNCs fault entirely. They did not have to change the rule after the vote to 100%.

[Debi]

71. Do you all take turns with these crazy-ass threads?

Take a few minutes and read madfloridian's journals.

You'll get an education and not look so silly.

:rofl: Who the fuck does Howard Dean think he is?! That's a good one.

[girl gone mad]

78. Madfloridian, where are you? n/t

[AZBlue]

86. Why should the rules be changed mid-election process so they can benefit Clinton?

Whether they benefit Clinton or Obama at this point, they should not be changed. I'm not saying that because they benefit Obama - if they benefitted Clinton I would say the exact same thing.

Because I for one believe in honest, fair elections, not cheating.

At this point, the only two choices are: continue as planned without the two states, or both states re-vote. That's it.

[totodeinhere]

89. If it were the other way around...

and not counting Florida and Michigan helped Obama, not Clinton, would you still be saying the same thing?

I doubt it.

This is nothing more or less than trying to find some way to get Clinton the nomination come hell or high water.

[VotesForWomen]

92. yep; we disrespect florida voters at our peril. nt

[youthere]

93. Did you see the latest on this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU

[robbedvoter]

95. Well said.

[jillan]

98. The truth is that both candidates need these delegates, and the nominee will need these states

to win in Nov.