Obama's preacher uses "hate speech." HRC voted to authorize an illegal war that's killed thousands.

[Mooney]

And I'm honestly supposed to give a shit about Obama's fucking pastor? Are you people shitting me????

[NJSecularist]

1. Thousands? Try a million. n/t

[Mooney]

4. I'm using a conservative estimate.

Somehow, that doesn't make it better.

[waiting for hope]

2. How many times has Obama voted

to fund that war that has killed thousands?

[Mooney]

3. That war wouldn't exist if senators like HRC hadn't authorized it

would it now?

[waiting for hope]

24. Let's see - how many did authorize it?

Like over 70? And please: http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/horsesmouth/2007/03/obama_quote_tha.php

In a recent interview, he declined to criticize Senators Kerry and Edwards for voting to authorize the war, although he said he would not have done the same based on the information he had at the time.

''But, I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports,'' Mr. Obama said. 'What would I have done? I don't know. What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made.''

It's a rhetorical situation and any logical person would see that.

[Mooney]

32. So because Obama didn't criticize Kerry & Edwards I can't criticize HRC?

HRC fucked up. Period. And she's the one running on her experience. If that's part of her experience, I'll go with the speeches guy. The fact that he said "the case was not made," EVEN IF HE DOESN'T MEAN IT, is better than what she did.

[waiting for hope]

60. Wow -

As I said, it's a rhetorical situation. Nothing to do with what was done. And with the case you are making, I'll go with neither, thank you. Obama is running on "Judgment" - They said Bush had judgment in spades in 2000. What part of his judgment made him think that voting to fund the war would have ended it?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

17. I'd fund it too.

People need to get over this delusion that defunding the war will end it. Vietnam was a different era and the people in charge at the time were not the utter sociopaths who hold the reins now. George Bush can get almost unlimited credit to continue military actions (look up the Feed and Forage Act when you get a chance) and BushCo has no qualms about leaving our kids over there with no armor, or food, if necessary. While blaming the Democrats for it the whole time.

[GhostofSandpiper]

5. Opinionated black preachers are the definitive issue of our time

The war in Iraq and the economy...


Kid's stuff.

[BringBigDogBack]

16. Ha!

:thumbsup:

[maddiejoan]

6. Why are you letting Bush off the hook

for being a War Criminal?

[Mooney]

8. I'm not, but HRC gets to be responsible for her vote.

Besides, if HRC was dumb enough to get duped by Bush, then she's not even qualified to be a janitor, much less president.

[maddiejoan]

20. You are

if you keep insisting that the IWR was a vote to authorize the War.

Bush did not keep his end of the bargain inherent in the resolution.

[Mooney]

30. HRC is a lawyer by trade

and lawyers know how to read extremely complex briefs with 75 subclauses and probe them for every last loophole, including ones that can be exploited to allow unelected presidents to go to war.

Anyone with half a brain who saw the 2000 election theft knew that Bush was not to be trusted in any way, and when HRC was handed the IWR to vote on, her lawyer brain should have analyzed it for any loophole that would have given Bush even an inch of leeway. She didn't. This means she was negligent, or she's not intelligent, or she was being an opportunist.

I know that the IWR was not a piece of paper with two checkboxes marked "Go to war" or "Don't go to war," by the way, thank you.

[maddiejoan]

33. Got news for you

Bush was going to invade Iraq anyway --We ALL knew it.

The IWR was a last ditch effort to attempt to get the Inspectors back in to PREVENT (if possible)Bush from invading.

It was a stupid vote, however --because Bush was ALWAYS going to invade, and he didn't need the IWR to do it.

He was planning it before he was even appointed to Office.

[Mooney]

37. Then why didn't she vote "no"?

If he was going to invade anyway, why not vote "no"?

Could it be because she wanted to look "tough" for her 2008 presidential campaign?

[maddiejoan]

39. She wanted to get the Inspectors back in

Did you ever read her floor speech before the vote?

[Mooney]

44. I've read it many times.

But I thought speeches don't matter?

[maddiejoan]

47. They matter when they are for a purpose

and they matter when joined with action.

They do not matter when they exist in a vacuum and are used to 'prove' some sort of superior Judgement.

Obama's 2002 speech proves nothing about how he would have voted, and in fact is remarkably similar to speeches given by both Hillary Clinton and John Kerry some weeks beforehand.

[Mooney]

51. And then they went ahead and voted "yes" anyway.

Isn't that something?

Besides, are you saying that Obama's antiwar speech from 2002 is proof that he would have voted for the IWR?

[maddiejoan]

55. I'm saying it doesn't prove he would have voted no

In fact --he is on record, for example, for saying he knew that voting with the GOP on the Schiavo matter was Constitutionally wrong --but he did it anyway.

He is on record as saying he doesn't know how he would have voted regarding IWR.

His speech is -just a speech, and no doubt a political move to gain support in a very liberal district.

His speech in comparison to his record seems almost jarring in it's difference.

[Skidmore]

64. Yes, we all knew it. That doesn't make her vote for IWR any less

irresponsible. It was not stupid, it was cynical and criminal on her part. How can you make excuses for her or any legislator that enabled this butchery?

[bunnies]

10. And the enablers? Are they war criminals too?

Damn right they are.

[uponit7771]

12. The onus goes on Bush but Hillary should take responsibility for her part. Thx

[bunnies]

7. The IWR Killed a million and displaced 5 million.

But the pastor is the asshole. HA.

[Mooney]

11. It's amazing, isn't it?

How many people are dead because of the pastor's "hate speech"?

That's right, NONE!

[bunnies]

18. Yet he's the asshole and she's the hero.

What kind of fucked up world is this.

[maddiejoan]

23. actually

you don't know that.

Ripples in a pond --and as Obama will tell you --Words Matter.

[Mooney]

35. ROFLMAO!

If I accept your premise, that Wright's speeches may have indirectly caused the deaths of even, let's say, five thousand people, that's still a fraction of the number of people killed in Iraq.

Words matter. So do votes.

[maddiejoan]

36. You appear to be under the delusion

That Hillary alone voted the troops into battle.

She didn't even partially do that.

[Mooney]

38. She's only 1/76th responsible.

And that's more than enough for me.

[maddiejoan]

41. Your interpretation

of the IWR vote --like many on DU, is simplistic.

[Mooney]

49. That's some argument.

But let's keep it simplistic anyway:

IWR > Obama's pastor

[maddiejoan]

52. I actually don't have a problem with Wright

In fact --I seem to have less of a problem with Wright than Obama does.

[uponit7771]

9. 85 year old Bear Stearns fails because of "free market" thinking ...

[TheZug]

15. in part because of Clinton's repeal of Glass-Steagal!

[BringBigDogBack]

13. Someone is reading my mind...

K/R

[DevonRex]

14. Here Here!

or is that Hear Hear?
Anyway, great point.

[JVS]

19. Black preacher makes some white people uncomfortable vs a million dead brown people.

[Alenne]

21. Pastorgate is the most important issue of our time

If Obama is elected white people will be thrown in concentration camps. Obama really hates white people. Without his preacher being caught on tape telling us so we would have been fooled. Now we know. You still have time to save yourself from them taking over the country.


:sarcasm:

[JoFerret]

22. And Obama voted to fund its continuation

And I am supposed to get excited by your sanctimony?

Question is - how do we undo the mess Bushco got us into?

[uponit7771]

26. It'd be more stupid to leave irresponsibly

[TwilightGardener]

29. Funding was the right thing to do--many smart people in Congress

believe that defunding is a terribly risky and undesirable way to end a conflict. In Vietnam, it was a true last resort, AFTER most of our troops had left--certainly it wouldn't have been done at the height of the conflict. It's not a good idea for many reasons, not just politically.

on edit--ask Hillary why she kept the funding going, too.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

25. "Squawk! I'm A Parrot!" "Squawk! IWR IWR" "Squawk! She Voted She Voted IWR IWR" "Squawk"

[Mooney]

40. The Iraq war is a bigger and more relevant issue than Obama's pastor.

Sorry.

[TwilightGardener]

45. A grave, once-in-a-lifetime life or death historical decision, and she

blows it. OK, then say you blew it. Don't just say, well, I'll never do THAT again, based on what I know now--that's not leadership, that's chickenshit excuse-making from someone who can never admit to making a mistake. Say you deeply regret it--not because you were caught being wrong, and you like to be right, but because your decision played a part in unleashing hell on innocents and in harming American interests and security. Admit that you have a part, however small, in the fiasco that ensued, admit that it makes you feel bad to see so much bloodshed that should never have happened. Explain why you made that bad decision (without blaming Condi Rice or Colin Powell or George Bush or anyone else), and say how you learned from it, how your mindset has changed, how your perspective on the purposes of waging war has changed.

[KingFlorez]

27. She's not supporting it now, that's what counts

She shouldn't have voted for the war, but she is against it now and wants the troops out. It's the present that counts.

[TwilightGardener]

31. No, judgment counts. Sorry, you don't just get to wake up and divorce

yourself from all your prior bad decisions. Nice try, though.

[maddiejoan]

53. I don't think

Good Judgement is Obama's strong suit.

He should get back to his Unity message --oh wait --that won't work either.

[Mooney]

43. I don't believe her.

And the past counts. The only people who say it doesn't count are the people who don't want it held against them.

[joeprogressive]

50. Now that 75% of the country is against it. HRC always does

what is politically expedient. Obama was outspoken against the war while the majority of Americans favored invasion. See the difference?

[EmilyAnne]

28. I agree, OP. And its millions, by the way. Soon to be 5000 of our own troops. Just horrible.

[Forkboy]

34. We gave them the "gift of freedom". Why do you hate America?

[Horse with no Name]

42. And obama has voted to fund this war

and don't kid yourself. IF he was a Senator at the time...he would have voted right alongside his mentor Lieberman for the IWR.
He has the luxury of standing outside looking in to create any record that he wanted on this subject.

[Mooney]

46. The war that HRC voted for, you mean.

And you have no idea how he might have voted. He might have voted for it. He might not. You can't know. What's indisputable is the fact that HRC did vote for it.

We can go with what you guess might be true, or we could go with the senate record. Your call.

[Horse with no Name]

57. Neither do you.

He has no moral ground to stand on the outside looking in creating a false record.

[Mooney]

61. Even if he's lying his ass off he's in higher moral standing than HRC.

He "might" have voted for the war. She DID vote for the war.

I'll make this simple for you. Let's say I ate a cheese sandwich. Then let's say that, for whatever reason, you didn't eat a cheese sandwich. What we extrapolate from this is that I ate a cheese sandwich.

Now let's mix it up a little. Let's say Senator X votes for a war. Let's say Senator Y, for whatever reason, didn't vote for it. What we extrapolate from this is that Senator X voted for the war.

OK?

[Barb in Atl]

54. Perhaps...

But if his actions are as politically motivated as you are suggesting, wouldn't he have also been one of the the legion screaming for war? Really, EVERYBODY was gung ho for it - or at least, those were the only voices that were allowed through the filter.

Speaking against the invasion of Iraq could have ended his career right there, doncha think? If he was bold enough (and perhaps, honestly, moved enough) to speak out against invasion before he'd made it out of the state legislature, maybe, just maybe he would have been bold enough to speak out once he was in the U.S. Senate and relatively safe (incumbents have an advantage, you know).

But we'll never know for sure now, will we? We only have his words spoken at the time. That's good enough for me.

[Horse with no Name]

59. Nobody knew...or cared...who Barack Obama was outside of his own district in Illinois

so it is a moot point.
His word is surely good enough for YOU...but which "word" are you going to take?
He has said several different things at different times...which obviously would allow him to cherry pick the MOST CORRECT response he wanted released.
He went to an Anti-War rally and pandered there. Big shock. Not.

[Barb in Atl]

63. Actually, that IS the point

By coming out and speaking against the war, he could have remained a "Nobody" outside of his district in Illinois forever. That could have stopped any and all aspirations to national office. But he said it anyway.

Obviously we have differing points of view and those POV's are going to color how we perceive "what could have been". There is no way to know definitively, one way or the other.

So....

Peace

[moondust]

48. She has a lot of blood on her hands.

He knows a preacher that occasionally gets overly melodramatic during his sermons.

There is no comparison.

[Freddie Stubbs]

56. "Illegal war?" Which specif law did it violate?

:shrug:

[Danzo]

58. Sorry, But Obama ADMITTED....

...that if he were in the Senate, he might have voted the same way that Hillary did:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-jim-mcgovern/senator-obamas-curious-c_b_72577.html

[GeorgeGist]

62. but but but ...

Pasture(sic)Wright ordered GOD to damn America.

[shadowknows69]

65. And as Hillary would say

Speeches are just words.

[closeupready]

66. I know, I agree. I'm very depressed about how this has all turned out.

I thought this time would be different, but of course, it's not. :(