Clinton supporters: listen up.

[gcomeau]

*(Disclaimer which should be unnceseeary but is getting included anyway: No, not every single Clinton supporter on the face of the earth, we all know who I'm talking to)

For some reason a lot of you don't seem to be getting this. The more obvious it becomes that Hillary cannot win the nomination the more aggressively you attack Obama. To what purpose exactly?

I'll fill you in on a little secret which shouldn't be a secret at all, it isn't convincing anyone here to take your position.

What it is doing is reinforcing, with every negative post made, the conclusion that Clinton and her supporters have adopted the "Hillary is nominated or no Dem wins" strategy. Every time you try to take a swing at Obama it isn't making anyone else here think "hmmm, maybe we SHOULD support Hillary". It's just proving for us that Hillary staying in the race is stupid and selfish and destructive. You reinforce that opinion with every single one of these idiotic threads.

I keep seeing these screeching ranting posts along the lines of "LOOK! LOOK! Obama's negatives are going up!!!!!" ... "Look! LOOK! Obama is slightly down in this poll after that last attack we pounded at him!!!" That's not turning us away from Obama, that's turning us away from Hillary because it's just proving the point about what she and many of her supporters are trying to do to the leading democratic candidate for the nomination at the damn finish line. You might as well just be screaming "Yes! Yes! We ARE kneecapping him!!! Look, he stumbled after that last swing we took!!!!"

You think that's helping your candidate around here? Do you? Are you that completely out of touch with reality? How in the hell has it still not sunk in with you people that the more you do this the higher Clinton's negatives go? And when you have a candidate that tends to hover over 50% negatives without piling this crap on that's not a good thing.

So you can keep ranting and raving and screaming anything you can think of to take a shot at Obama, but don't get pissed off at us when we react by pointing out how Hillary staying in the race beyond the point at which she can rationally be expected to win is hurting the party... you're the ones trying your hardest to prove the point every day. This business with the renewed pile on on Wright is just the latest example. That is textbook Republican slime, and you all damn well know it, and you're throwing it at the Democratic candidate who has 99.9999% odds of being our nominee. Don't think we're supposed to be ok with that.

You can try to argue that nothing you're doing wouldn't be done by the Republicans, and you might even get it out without feeling a little piece of your soul die when you do it, but nobody here is stupid enough to buy it. There is a world of difference between a Republican throwing attacks at a Democratic candidate and a fellow Democrat doing everything in their playbook FOR them and you all know it.

You can try to make an argument that Clinton has every right to keep running as long as she wants. Yep, she sure does. Just like a team that is down in the fourth quarter of a football game by 37 points with 2 minutes remaining has every right to finish out the game. But if in the last play they blitz the opposing quarterback, hammer him after he unloads the ball, and injure him for the rest of the season there will be a goddamn strong reaction, and not a good one for the losers who deliberately injured the winners out of malice and spite for getting their asses kicked fair and square.

Hillary. Has. Lost. Barring Obama getting literally hit by a train she can't win the pledged delegate race, and there is no chance in hell of the supers giving her the nomination under those circumstances in this contest. And we all know it. You can keep spouting absurdities about how suddenly Hillary will miraculously make some kind of amazing comeback if only she wins this or that remaining state by 20 points less than the pace at which we all know she needs to win EVERY remaining state just to catch Obama, but the rest of us aren't living in a fantasy world. Nobody is buying it. The game is over, we're just running out the clock now as a formality. We all know it. Try to come to grips with that basic fact.

[PBS Poll-435]

1. Thanks for your concern.

[jgraz]

72. And thanks for your post. I knew I'd missed one.

*plonk*

[Yael]

85. I have no idea what ignored said

I am just amused that I only have 4 but you missed this one. :evilgrin:

[jgraz]

95. It's like stamping out cockroaches. There's always another one scurrying around somewhere.

[Deep13]

2. Perhaps "excuse me" or "may I have your attention, please"...

...as I don't respond to "listen up." Jesus, who raised you?

tl/dr

[mkultra]

10. may i have your attention

She lost!

[Johnny Battleground]

60. No such thing... Obama is on the ropes

Reverend Wright went right back and stuck a sewing needle in Obama's eye.
Reminding everyone of Wright's nasty remarks, and that Obama listened to this for 20-years.
Bye-bye swing voters. Those we need to win.

This will be decided by the Super Delegates, of which there are a few hundred not committed.
Wonder why?

Between Wright and Michelle, and Obama laying rotten eggs, it's no wonder this will go all the way to the convention.

So...

Super Delegates for Hillary Clinton

[me b zola]

90. re "on the ropes"

That's called a rope-a-dope, son. Watch and learn.

[gcomeau]

25. I've tried more polite academic titles. They get ignored.

As for your tl/dr, if several whole paragraphs is too much content for you what are you doing trying to communicate in a discussion board? Wouldn't text messaging people on your phone with "vt Hllry!!1!" be more your speed?

[Prophet 451]

49. That always bugged me too

This has very little to do with the above poster but the "tl;dr" thing always pissed me off as well. It's like saying "I have my opinion, don't bother me with counterarguement for my mind is like concrete and utterly set". It always reminds of the few remaining Bush supporters who confuse strength for stubbornness.

[Yael]

87. LOL!

[Life Long Dem]

45. All the OP was doing was getting people's attention. You didn't need

to make your comment and at the very beginning of the post no less. As if they are making a point on how someone shouldn't speak, when "you and I" know all they are doing is interrupting the OP. That's rude. Maybe a little calm and some manners on your side would be in order.

[Barrymores Ghost]

50. Translation: "I have nothing to add and no excuses to make...

...so I'll cross my arms and get really pouty and see if that wins me any points."

FAIL.

[Joe the Revelator]

3. This is a great great post. I can't rec it enough.

[PBS Poll-435]

8. Great...

[chimpymustgo]

4. Obama. has. not. won. Calm down. Let the people vote. Obama is not entitled to the

nomination, just because he's a little bit ahead going into the final laps. Let's see how this plays out.

[Joe the Revelator]

6. The OP makes a very good point. There is a 99.9 % chance that Obama HAS won....thats just simple

math..

Go back and read his sports analogy again, since you seem to like those, Earnhardt. She has the right to finish the race,but as a lapped car, she has no right to spin out the leader.

[VotesForWomen]

58. no; i'm sorry, i don't think you understand the process. nt

[Yael]

88. Lemme guess

Your first election?

[jgraz]

97. let's hope so.

Otherwise, she may be a danger to herself and others.

[Zodiak]

11. To you, it is "A little ahead"

To the rest of the world, it is an insurmountable lead because it is very late in the race.

And that difference in opinion means EVERYTHING in this argument.

If you feel Hillary can win (and she cannot), then this is all hunky dory.

If you feel it is an insurmountable mead, it is a political fratricide.

[mkultra]

12. sorry, hes more than a bit ahead

winning 67% of ALL remaining pledged means its over. You can theorize the possibilities while ignoring the probabilities but the result will be the same.

[gcomeau]

31. Yes, he has won.

In the same sense that that team up by 37 with 2 minutes left in the game has won. The game isn't technically over, but the outcome is determined barring some form of divine intervention.

Hillary, as of now, needs to win every remaining contest by 30 points to TIE Obama in pledged delegates. She is not doing that in either NC or Indiana, and is unlikely (to put it mildly) to win at all in NC. Even if we projected the net result of Indiana and NC a DRAW, which is being nice to Clinton, that would mean she would then have to win all the contests after that by 60 points. As in, 80-20.

Now, while that is hypothetically, theoretically possible... in a "it doesn't directly violate any laws of nature that I'm familiar with" kind of way, it's not happening.

Clinton is not just going to finish behind in pledged delegates, she's finishing well behind. Three digits behind. There is ZERO chance the supers rise up en mass with that outcome and overturn that against Obama. Not when he polls against McCain basically the same as Clinton does, is better on the down ticket races, and the AA and youth vote would damn near riot at a couple hundred members of Democratic leadership overturning the outcome of the voting of millions of people. No chance at all. I wasn't using hyperbole when I put the odds at 99.9999%, that's a pretty damn fair assessment at this point. It's done. And I'm tired of people saying we should pretend like it isn't.

[Politicalboi]

89. Oh! Oh!

You forgot the "Automatic Delegates" And FL and MI. Maybe when Hillary voted for war she didn't think dead was really dead. Because her campaign is dead and she still doesn't believe it. I'm with you I can't believe Hillary supporters still even think she has a chance. And even if she had a chance they would still vote for her after all the dirty tricks and lies she has told. They keep talking about how Obama has gone negative on her but I have yet to see it. He has held off those attacks. He could have done that a long time ago.

[Barrymores Ghost]

51. So, when he takes NC and Edwards endorses, will that be enough?

Or do we have to drag this national nightmare on for another three weeks?

The game IS over. The OP's analogy is spot-on. The spread is too great to beat, but the losing team is hell-bent on inflicting maximum damage so that the victor limps into the next contest against a rested opponent.

Yeah, there's a whole fuckin' LOT of nobility in that strategy.

[lojasmo]

5. Republicans don't have a lock on clueless thuggery. EOM

[Name removed]

7. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rodeodance]

9. *****more arrogance from the Obama crowd--just like their leader--likes to lecture just like Bush!!

[Beacool]

29. More arrogance from the Obama crowd.............

You sounded so much like me that I looked at the nick to make sure that it wasn't an old post. LOL!!!!!!!

[Barrymores Ghost]

54. Guess that makes you BOTH delusional zealots...

...determined to kneecap the inevitable victor so that he limps into the next contest against a fresh and rested opponent.

BRAVO for you both. Really...you should be PROUD.

[gcomeau]

32. Yes, math is inherently arrogant. Shame on us for using it.

And what a substantive rebuttal of my points. I'm terribly impressed in spite of myself.

[FatDave]

35. ****more delusion from the Clinton crowd--just like their leader--can't do math.

Damn, that was easy. Next!

[guyanakoolaid]

39. *****more arrogance from the Hillary crowd--just like their leader--campaigns just like Bush!!

[guyanakoolaid]

40. *****more arrogance from the Hillary crowd--just like their leader--votes for war just like Bush!!

[guyanakoolaid]

41. *****more arrogance from the Hillary crowd--just like their leader--loved by Rush, just like Bush!!

[sellitman]

69. You mistake arrogance for math.

Math is based on facts. Of which you can't ignore.

[hill_win_2008]

13. Obama v. Huckabee?

So, according to you, that should be the GE race correct? After all, those two candidates won the Iowa Caucus and were therefore the front runners. The remaining candidates should have dropped out so as not to "injure" the front runner in any way.

I know you keep saying that Hillary CAN'T win unless Obama kills cats on national TV (although I'm sure he would be excused for the God that he is), but guess what: Obama CAN'T win unless Hillary drops out.

[azmouse]

15. The 'Goddess of Peace' doesn't have to drop out for Obama to win.

He has the popular vote, the delegates and the SD will not thwart the will of the people.
But if the Goddess would bow out gracefully Obama could finally start to focus on McBush.

[gcomeau]

37. Did you actually read the OP?

There is a difference between mere "frontrunners" and a candidate so far ahead, so late in the race, that their frontrunner status cannot rationally be expected to be overcome in the time remaining.

We are currently dealing with the latter situation. As I believe was made perfectly clear.

As for your claim that Obama can't win unless Hillary drops out... what a ridiculous thing to say. Let's go play with CNN's delegate calculator: http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/29/delegate.counter/

Set every remaining contest, including superdelegates, to 50% for both candidates. What happens? Oh look, Obama goes over the 2025 threshold by over 50 delegates. Also known as winning the nomination. Since supers have been going for Obama about 5 to 1 since February and all projections have him splitting the remaining primary delegates with Clinton, guess who wins whether Hillary drops out or not?

Take your time...

[D23MIURG23]

38. Obama can and will win regardless of what Hillary does.

That's the logical correlary of "Hillary can't win unless Obama kills cats on TV".

The SDs just aren't stupid enough to organize a coup in favor of someone with negatives above 50%, and that is what it would take for Hillary to win.


The calls for Hillary to drop out are related to Obamas General Election health not his primary status.

[oasis]

14. Hillary has lost? God damn America.

:cry:

[mopinko]

16. thank you.

and thank you for allowing me get the last of the bots on my ignore list. we all ought to just tune them out, and move along.

[Skittles]

63. isn't it nice when you're only around people who agree with you?

:o

[mopinko]

71. i still see the few reasonable hill supporters

i don't mind people who disagree. i love a good argument. hi decibel, even.
but these people are not here to participate in a (sane) discussion. they are here to drive a wedge, and spin till they drop. i don't need none of that, i have teenagers.

[aquarius dawning]

17. Don't listen to this demoralizing drivel. We have money and we have some VERY favorable contests

to look forward to in the near future. Obama is all out of caucuses (save 1) and has to fight in states comprised of his least supportive demographics after NC. This isn't over.

[Tesha]

23. So post some numbers

Present a scenario where Hillary comes out of *THE LAST
CONTEST* with a winning formula of pledged delegates and
superdelegates. Tell us the margins by which she must win
the remaining contests to fulfill your scenario.

Tesha

[gcomeau]

33. "Some very favorable contests"

Yep. Won't deny it. Kentucky for example looks great for Hillary. She might even win it by 30 or more points even. That'll get her a whole... 20 delegates?

I know, you know, and everyone else here knows that Hillary cannot catch Obama. She wins Kentucky and West Virginia, he wins North Carolin and Oregon... and at the end of the race he's still up by about 150 delegates. And the supers won't break to Hillary to reverse that because they're not suicidal morons who want to try as hard as they can to throw away both the AA AND the youth vote AND send the wider message to the whole country that the Democratic primary process makes a sham of democracy all in one fell swoop.

Not happening. It's done. All this rhetoric you guys keep tossing out accomplished nothing but to irritate people who don't especially like being treated like they're brain dead idiots who can't add, which is what you're doing every time you try to tell us Hillary can make some kind of comeback.

[guyanakoolaid]

42. Of course it's not, surely Hillary can capture 75% of the remaining votes

:eyes:

[cliffordu]

18. Great post, K&R!!!

:kick:

[Captain Hilts]

19. Fuck you. I like both candidates. nt

[guruoo]

22. ROFL!

:headbang:

[guruoo]

20. IMO, it hurts Obama when his supporters claim that we've already crossed the "finish line"

Hurts Democracy, too.

[gcomeau]

34. Didn't say we crossed the finish line.

I said we were at it. My other analogy was 2 minutes from game's end.

We don't have to have crossed the finish line to know what the results are going to be when we do. Not this far into the contest with results this clear. Hillary is not taking every single remaining state by over 30 freaking points. A very optimistic projection for her would be she gains 30 or so delegates over all the remaining races. A realistic projection says she breaks about even with Obama.

Which means Obama finishes with a pledged delegate lead in the triple digits. Which there is no way in hell the supers overturn, for a slew of painfully obvious reasons.

Clinton and her more rabid supporters going after Obama with everything in the Republican negative playbook at this stage in the game is inexcusable. It is no different from deliberately injuring the opposing quarterback on the last play of the game, after you've already clearly lost, and the opposition is going to the playoffs next week... just because they're spiteful that they got blown out.

And pointing out the obvious does not in any way "hurt democracy".

[guruoo]

36. I just sayin' n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

21. Oh Booo Hoooooo Hoooooo. Grow A Skin And Get Over It.

[undeterred]

24. But but but its so unfair

here comes the popular vote argument

here comes the superdelegates are all going to wise up, rise up, and vote for Hillary argument

here comes the Obamas unelectable argument

here comes the "you're disenfranchising MI and FL" argument

here comes the you can't deny the rest of the states their right to vote argument (Hey I only had 2 choices)

Am I forgeting anything?

Same old arguments, same people day after day.

[JuniperLea]

26. Welcome to ignore

I'm going against everything I've ever said here on DU about learning from fools and from sages... it's going to get awfully crowded... I'm so fucking sick of the boooooo fucking hoooooing! Jesus fucking Christ people! It's becoming a sickness!

[Lucky 13]

52. Remember that the next time your candidate gets smacked with a scandal. And Karma owes her one...

[jgraz]

74. Do you ever add anything of value to this forum?

Or do you just pop up to tell people you're ignoring them because you couldn't deal with the facts they were presenting? Pathetic.

[Catherine Vincent]

27. You need to shut up.

You're making REAL Obama supporters look bad.

[Auntie Bush]

28. You obviously need to look up the definition of a PRIMARY.

THIS KIND OF POSTS SUCKS AND IS UNDEMOCRATIC. Can you hear me?

[jonestonesusa]

82. Opinions are undemocratic?

Interesting logic...

[JCMach1]

30. It cuts both ways... time to be gracious

[CK_John]

43. Her odds seem a lot better today than they did on friday. n/t

[jbm]

44. thanks for your concern..

now excuse me while I go make phone calls for the future President Hillary Clinton!

[annie1]

46. you guys oscillate from worrying that your candidate wont' get the nom...

to fretting the clintons will "steal it" to she's never gonna get it. well since you're in the lead, why not just chill out? if your candidate is so great then he's not going to get hurt by her tempered fight. the gloves will come off when mccain and the nom go at it. simmer.

[Life Long Dem]

47. But if you and I know this,

then maybe we can get your help and tackle MSM once and for all? That's what all the fretting is about. We are not asking for you to abandon your dreams, but to help us fight MSM the way we always have together.

[barack the house]

48. Just to go over the poster did say a few supporters not all. K&r btw.

[panAmerican]

53. What does TL/DR mean? Too long ...?

[Snarkoleptic]

55. k&r n/t

Hillary is a vampire endorsed by the the Kristol, Scaife, Limbaugh, et at. to drain us of what should be an easy victory!

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VotesForWomen]

57. you do know that Obama "can not win the nomination" without SDs? so they're in the same boat.

superdelegates exist for a reason, and it is not to rubber-stamp the pledged delegates. if it was, why bother having them?

[jgraz]

75. It's already been said numerous times that the SDs will not overturn the pledged delegate count

How many prominent Democrats need to say that before it sinks in?

[Sapphocrat]

59. ...

:boring:

[BenDavid]

61. i think what you fail to realize it, we hrc supporters are responding

in kind to the vile, contempt, and lewd and crude way in which most attack HRC. I do not get personal on obama, just try to stay within a narrow band.....

[Yael]

92. You "don't get personal". What was your "white devils" drivel all about then?

[skyounkin]

62. How dare

you point out the fact that second place does NOT get the gold medal!!

How dare you!!

Go hang your head in shame.

SHAME ON YOU!!

:hug:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

64. you felt intimadated by all 8 of the remaining Clinton supporters on DU to post this....LMFAO!!!

that is the 8 that you o folks haven't run off....this is rich and really sad on you to have felt the need to wastwe one of your 3 limit daily post on.... it SCREAMS FEAR!

[Yael]

93. 8? I'm tracking 107 of 'em. Only the most unreasonable ones, of course.

:hi:

[Veracious]

65. Hillary = New Extreme Rightwing Supreme Court

She has lost ALL credibility - I wont vote for her even if she wins the nomination. I sure hope all you Hillary supporters enjoy our new extreme right wing Supreme Court.

[cboy4]

66. Awwwww

[symbolman]

68. Great!

I wondered what you looked like... :)

Actually a composite photo of what Clinton supporters are going to look like en masse in as little as a few weeks.. Gonna be wonderful to open the windows here on the DU and air out the goddamn hypocritical airs of this Clinton elitist crew, always claiming that they are for democracy and screaming for someone to overturn the VOTES in the same breath..

I especially love it when you claim transparently as a shower curtain that you aren't against Obama (while you create threads that trash him).. I gather you aren't leaving when The Cackler is shown the door, having your higher road calling of preserving democracy as an excuse?

And this after you insult those who served their country? Smearing veterans here will not make you friends, like you need any in LALALand there.. :)

[BzaDem]

67. Nope. Obama will probably win the nomination, but he will almost definately lose the GE.

If Obama does actually get the nomination, you are going to get a hard dose of reality. Because when the entire MSM turns on him, and this entire election because about Wright/Ayers/Rezko and company, you will no longer be able to say "this is a delegate race." You will no longer be able to say "Hillary has lost," or "I wouldn't defend Hillary even if she were being stoned." (No joke, that was said within the past week on DU).

But I don't really think many of you care. As long as Hillary doesn't win, you are fine with whatever happens.

[DemVet]

70. Barack. Has. Not. Won.

Not yet anyway.

Not until he has 2025 delegates.

[jgraz]

73. Excellent post. K&R.

Also, very helpful in fleshing out the ignore list. ;)

[Hoof Hearted]

76. Whoa. You guys are TERRIFIED, aren't you!

[Baby Snooks]

77. But they know something you don't...

They know that despite the "neutrality" of Howard Dean and Nancy Pelosi there is this "demand" that the superdelegates commmit to Hillary Clinton.

They know that despite the message it will send to everyone who voted for Barack Obama that the will of the people doesn't matter, the superdelegates in the end will commit to Hillary Clinton.

Because it was intended all along for her to be the nominee. Just as it was intended all along for John McCain to be the nominee.

Because it was intended all along for her to be the president. Which is why impeachment was taken off the table.

This is no longer a democracy. It is an oligarchy. Our "leaders" are no longer chosen by the people. As everyone will finally see for themselves.

Don't think so? Just look at Sheila Jackson Lee. Who told her constituents after they voted for Barack Obama that their votes didn't matter. That the will of the people didn't matter.

[gcomeau]

78. Sorry, not buying that.

It may very well have been intended by a certain faction that Hillary be the nominee from the beginning. The army of superdelegates who endorsed here before a single primary vote had been cast and the pervasive spread of the sense of inevitability regarding her campaign when things began oh those many months ago made that clear enough... but at this point if there were many more of that camp left among the supers they would have endorsed in droves by now. We would not have seen Obama picking up supers five times faster than Clinton since February.

Obama has it wrapped up barring, as I mentioned earlier, getting hit by a train or something. I do not buy the argument that Wright is that train. People have been too extensively exposed to him and to Obama's renouncing his more controversial silliness for him to have too much new effect on people. And as much as the media absolutely gets off on playing Wright clips they can only get away with it for so long before it becomes too painfully obvious they're manufacturing news instead of reporting it.

[Malikshah]

79. OOooooooh.. HRC supporters, you best simmah down and pay attention.

Good lord, I'm no supporter of HRC at the moment, but you Obama folk are making yourselves looks completely and totally foolish.

-- This thread
-- Attacking HRC for not saying anything over the weekend as Wright continued to talk
-- Accusing the NPClub talk of being a plot by the HRC campaign.

Really-- were I BO, I'd be worried with the folks here on DU in his camp.


Time for folks to step away from the computer-- go support your respective candidate.

Do something positive.

[indimuse]

80. get off the med's NOW!!!

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Profile.com"></a]

[gcomeau]

81. Awww, so humurous.

You do NOT want anyone to repost that picture with the Clinton scandals in it. Assuming they could fit them all in the borders.

Where have you been the last 15 years anyway?

[mcollier]

83. Nice... But this ones much better...

Take a look to see ==>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24Y1qcma0Q4] How McCain plans to win.

[acetylyne]

84. I love the hillbots who seem to be mathmatically challanged

Barack has won. it's just that simple, it's impossible for Hillary to catch up in pledged deleagates, and with the DNC being very vocal about their policy: 'the candidate with the most pledged delegates is our nominee' there is no point in continuing this contest.

it's sad to point this out, but it seems Huckabee has more common sense than Hillary.

[Indenturedebtor]

86. Yes HRC knows the score

I don't know exactly what game she's playing at this point. I'm not angry at her supporters just her for obvious reasons. She's about as likely to get the nomination as I am to levitate out of my chair and shoot fireballs out of my ass.

[TragedyandHope]

91. The sad truth.

:kick:

[LizW]

94. Delusional. n/t

[jgraz]

96. Yes, you certainly are.

Need I say? *plonk*