Post here to support Howard Dean and his stance with MI & Florida

[gal]

I haven't seen a thread here to give support to Howard Dean for his stance on Florida and Michigan and I though it would be nice to do. While I feel sorry for the people of these two states, it is important to realize there are also 48 other states with people who have feelings on this as well. If we do not back him in this decision there is nothing to keep other states from doing similar things in the following elections.

Anyway I just thought it would be nice for some positive re-enforcement instead of all negative.
So I thank him.:toast:

[Mme. Defarge]

1. Dean is brilliant!

He's the best.

[Enthusiast]

187. He should have been the nominee in 2004

I expect there was some Republican subterfuge at work in Iowa.

[pansypoo53219]

203. no shit.

but the DLC and gephardt helped as well. i still want him president. after he rebuild the party away from the DLC.

[cali]

2. I completely support Howard Dean

and I'm confident he'll work out MI and FL.

[Fearless]

3. Rules are rules, they shouldn't count.

It's ashame that they have to punish the voters for the acts of the pols. But, two wrongs don't make a right.

[JohnnyBoots]

27. I mean shouldn't the Dem nominee have to agree with the rules and guidelines of the DNC? NT

[Fearless]

59. Clearly.

[hisownpetard]

219. Both candidates signed the pledge, saying they would abide by the DNC's rules.

Hillary's signature, though, was written in disappearing ink.

[jasmine621]

45. Rules are the rules. Come November, we lose MI and FL for sure. nt

[Fearless]

58. No we don't. Just watch.

[cyclezealot]

109. Presently

polls show McCain ahead in Michigan.

[stillcool]

90. and who would you blame for that?

The Democratic National Party? It is not Michigan and Florida's party, it is our party.

[L0oniX]

135. We won't win a "majority" in FloriDAH anyway since it's mostly a repuke old fuck state

[ChairmanAgnostic]

153. HOW THE HELL DO YOU FIGURE THAT?

Denver involves the non-seating of 341 individual political hacks. Thats the number of state delegates from those two states.

Are you SERIOUSLY TELLING US (without parroting the bullshit from Terry McAuful) that the 28,000,000 citizens in those two states give a flying fuck about the fate of 341 spoiled party goers? Are you serious? That is somehow more important that iraq, iran, the economy, and other critical issues? You mean to say that the mortgage crisis, the lack of response from the White house is less important than whether 341 people can get drunk, chase hookers (although every hooker swears the GOP uses them more and tips better) and dance around in silly hats? ARE YOU SERIOUS?

obviously not.

[xxqqqzme]

228. AND those rules were approved by the members from

ALL the states last August. Those were not rules voted on by DNC members excluding members from Michigan & Florida. They knew they were violating DNC rules when they moved their primary dates.

Howard Dean is an excellent DNC chair. He has paid more attention to the state parties in the last 2 1/2 years than was paid in the previous 10. He is rebuilding the DNC from the local level up as he promised he would.

[JNelson6563]

62. I'm always surprised when you reveal this part of you

The short-sighted, not too politically astute side.

How do you propose to win the WH without MI & FLA?

I support Dean entirely and feel a compromise will and should be reached. The only ones who screwed up in MI were the Big Wigs of the Dem party so they are the only ones who should be punished. If MI were seated sans the superdelegates (aka the idiots who got us into this mess) that would be fair. Why punish the little people?

Julie

[Labors of Hercules]

198. WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

The SD's are no more responsible for the messes in MI and FL than the voters are.

And they are the only ones who can be accurately represented because the primary elections in BOTH states were in violation of party rules, and thoroughly biased toward HRC as a result.

[JNelson6563]

201. The supers are the ones who screwed it up.

The elected delegates and those who elected them (aka the little people) don't deserve to be punished but those who screwed it all up, they should be.

Julie

[mopinko]

210. elections have consequences

the voters elected these people. they get to enjoy the fruits of their labors.

[JNelson6563]

218. I marvel at the depths of the stupidity here

One simple question for ya: Do you think Dems can win the WH without MI or FLA?

It's really that fucking simple.

Julie

[mopinko]

236. well, they should go ahead and cut their noses off to spite their faces.

or maybe they will think a little harder about their franchise.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

175. Actually, its the Democratic National Committee, not Howard Dean's stance

the Clinton supporters try to put it all on Dean's shoulders, but the rules and then the sanctions were decided by a committee.

[DeanDem10]

191. Truly Machiavellian, on part

of pols (in both states incl Republicans in FL), and HRC.

I do not envy Howard Dean for having to solve this mess. But the way things were headed, we might have had primaries backed up all the way to December. We need a national policy on a single national primary day. This is getting ridiculous. No one state (or group of them)should determine who is still viable when the rest of the country finally gets to vote. Every single state should vote on the same day. We need a 50 state strategy and a fifty state same-day primary.

[lastliberalintexas]

4. This die hard Deaniac disagrees

I'd give my eye teeth to have Gore/Dean or Dean/Gore this year, but I disagree with the good doctor on this issue. Many people on this very site used to argue against Iowa and New Hampshire having such disproportionate impact on the primary, and yet when 2 states actually do something about it they are bashed.

I know that this issue is one of the many that usually cuts down candidate lines, but I disagree with Obama supporters on this. I don't agree with Clinton supporters because I don't think that those states' delegates can be seated as is, either. I realy don't know what should be done, but I for one would love to see the Iowa/New Hampshire stranglehold on primary politics broken up.

[stillcool]

99. I do not understand how you can connotate...

changing the primary system, whether one wants a nation-wide primary, winner takes all, or rotation, etc., with 2 states agreeing to and voting for the rules in 2006, and then deciding that those rules do not apply to them in 2007. The "Democratic Party" voted on those rules. Michigan and Florida are not "The Democratic Party". Do you think in 2012 there should be no rules at all? No National Party?

[lastliberalintexas]

125. Because that is why those states are being punished

Because they dared jump ahead in the process and could have potentially lessened the impact of Iowa and New Hampshire. Yes, you can tell me that it's because they broke the "rules" but we all know that's not really what this is all about. The rules themselves were put in place to protect Iowa nd New Hampshire's role in the primary process, so these issues are inseparable. The rest of the country has grumbled for years about the inordinate influence of 2 small, mostly white, most rural to suburban states on the primary process, yet when 2 states act to do something about it they get punished because of the entrenched interests within the party.


Again, I really don't know what should be done about this situation at this point. It should have been resolved a long time ago, probably before they even voted in those 2 states. But I really wish people from BOTH camps would quit acting like this is a simple issue with no shades of gray.

[stillcool]

147. I see no shades of gray...

I see two rogue states, and extortion.

Florida Dems defy Dean on primary date
By Sam Youngman
Posted: 06/12/07 07:58 PM
Howard Dean, chairman of the Democratic National Committee (DNC), is trapped in a high-stakes game of chicken with party leaders in Florida.
They warned him yesterday not to “disenfranchise” state voters and risk being blamed for a debacle on the scale of the 2000 recount.

The warning comes amid alarm over a decision Sunday by state Democratic leaders to embrace Jan. 29 as the primary date. They are defying DNC headquarters and daring it to follow through on its threat to disqualify electors selected in the primary and punish candidates who campaign there.

But the DNC is not backing down. The committee bought time with a statement late yesterday saying, “The DNC will enforce the rules as passed by its 447 members in Aug. 2006. Until the Florida State Democratic Party formally submits its plan and we’ve had the opportunity to review that submission, we will not speculate further.”

Dean does not, in any case, have the power to waive party rules, a DNC spokeswoman said. The entire committee would have to vote again to do that.
------------------
Carol Fowler, chairwoman of the South Carolina Democratic Party, said she won’t move that state’s primary, scheduled for Feb. 2, unless the national committee allows her. “I’m going to do what the DNC tells me to,” Fowler said. “I’m not willing to violate the rules. The penalties are too stiff.”


http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/florida-dems-defy-dean-on-primary-date-2007-06-12.html

Posted: August 27, 2007, 6:05 PM ET
DNC Moves to Stop Primary Frontloading
The Democratic National Committee moved over the weekend to penalize Florida for moving up its primary date to Jan. 29 -- a violation of DNC rules that prohibit states from holding nominating polls before Feb. 5. The committee said the Sunshine State would be stripped of its delegation at the party's National Convention in 2008 if the state does not reschedule its primary in the next 30 days.

As the nation's fourth-most-populous state, Florida has 210 delegates and has played a major role in recent presidential elections. Florida's decision to advance its primary follows the increasing trend of states pushing up their contests in order to gain relevance in the election.
"Rules are rules. California abided by them, and Florida should, as well. To ignore them would open the door to chaos," said Garry Shays, a DNC member from California. California -- with its 441 delegates -- moved its primary to Feb. 5, along with more than a dozen other states.
-----------------------------------------
The DNC gave Florida the option of holding a Jan. 29 contest but with nonbinding results, and the delegates would be awarded at a later official date.

Florida Democratic Committee Chairwoman Karen Thurman said this option would be expensive -- as much as $8 million -- and potentially undoable. Another option would be to challenge the ruling in court.

"We do represent, standing here, a lot of Democrats in the state of Florida -- over 4 million," Thurman said, according to the New York Times. "This is emotional for Florida. And it should be."
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/politics/july-dec07/florida_08-27.html

Lawmakers in US state Michigan approve moving presidential primary to January despite rules
The Associated Press
Published: August 30, 2007

LANSING, Michigan: Michigan lawmakers have approved moving the state's U.S. presidential nomination contests to January, three weeks earlier than party rules allow, as states continue to challenge the traditional primary election calendar to gain influence in the race.

Democratic Gov. Jennifer Granholm is expected to sign the bill passed Thursday that would move the contest to Jan. 15, but approval of the switch is far from certain. A disagreement among state Democratic leaders over whether to hold a traditional ballot vote or a more restricted caucus is complicating final action.

If the date moves up, Michigan Democrats risk losing all their national convention delegates, while Republicans risk losing half.
------------------------------------
"We understand that we're violating the rules, but it wasn't by choice," Michigan Republican Chairman Saul Anuzis said, noting that state Democrats first proposed moving the date to Jan. 15.
"We're going to ask for forgiveness and we think ... we will get forgiveness."
----------------------------------
Florida Democrats decided to move their state's primary to Jan. 29. The national party has said it will strip Florida of its presidential convention delegates unless it decides within the next few weeks to move the vote to a later date.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/08/31/america/NA-POL-US-Primary-Scramble.php?WT.mc_id=rssap_america

Published: Monday, September 24, 2007
Florida defies Dems, moves up primary
Associated Press
PEMBROKE PINES, Fla. — The Florida Democratic Party is sticking to its primary date — and it printed bumper stickers to prove it.
State party leaders formally announced Sunday their plans to move ahead with a Jan. 29 primary, despite the national leadership's threatened sanctions.
The Democratic National Committee has said it will strip the Sunshine State of its 210 nominating convention delegates if it doesn't abide by the party-set calendar, which forbids most states from holding primary contests before Feb. 5. The exceptions are Iowa on Jan. 14, Nevada on Jan. 19, New Hampshire on Jan. 22 and South Carolina on Jan. 29.
http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20070924/NEWS02/709240045/-1/

Democrats vow to skip defiant states
Six candidates agree not to campaign in those that break with the party's calendar. Florida and Michigan, this includes you.
By Mark Z. Barabak, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
September 2, 2007
The muddled 2008 presidential nomination calendar gained some clarity Saturday -- at least on the Democratic side -- as the party's major candidates agreed not to campaign in any state that defies party rules by voting earlier than allowed.

Their collective action was a blow to Florida and Michigan, two states likely to be important in the general election, which sought to enhance their clout in the nominating process as well.
Front-runner Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York followed Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois and former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina in pledging to abide by the calendar set by the
Democratic National Committee last summer. The rules allow four states -- Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina -- to vote in January.
The four "need to be first because in these states ideas count, not just money," Edwards said in a written statement. "This tried-and-true nominating system is the only way for voters to judge the field based on the quality of the candidate, not the depth of their war chest."

Hours later, after Obama took the pledge, Clinton's campaign chief issued a statement citing the four states' "unique and special role in the nominating process" and said that the New York senator, too, would "adhere to the DNC-approved calendar."

Three candidates running farther back in the pack -- New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson and Sens. Christopher J. Dodd of Connecticut and Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware -- said Friday they would honor the pledge, shortly after the challenge was issued in a letter co-signed by Democratic leaders in the four early states.
--
Florida, the state that proved pivotal in the 2000 presidential election, is again a source of much upheaval. Ignoring the rule that put January off-limits, legislators moved the state's primary up to Jan. 29, pushing Florida past California and other big states voting Feb. 5.Leaders of the national party responded last month by giving Florida 30 days to reconsider, or have its delegates barred from the August convention in Denver.

"The party had to send a strong message to Florida and the other states," said Donna Brazile, a veteran campaign strategist and member of the Democratic National Committee, the party's governing body. "We have a system that is totally out of control."

Despite that warning, Michigan lawmakers moved last week to jump the queue, voting to advance the state's primary to Jan. 15.

Michigan defies parties, moves up primary date
JAN. 15 DECISION COULD SET OFF STAMPEDE OF STATES
By Stephen Ohlemacher
Associated Press
Article Launched: 09/05/2007 01:34:57 AM PDT

WASHINGTON - Michigan officially crashed the early primary party Tuesday, setting up showdowns with both political parties and likely pushing the presidential nomination calendar closer to 2007.

Gov. Jennifer Granholm signed a bill moving both of Michigan's presidential primaries to Jan. 15. Michigan's move threatens to set off a chain reaction that could force Iowa and New Hampshire to reschedule their contests even earlier than anticipated, perhaps in the first week in January 2008 or even December 2007.
-------------------------------------------
The national parties have tried to impose discipline on the rogue states. On the Republican side, states that schedule contests before Feb. 5 risk losing half their delegates to next summer's convention, though some are banking that whoever wins the GOP nomination will eventually restore the delegates.
Democrats have experienced similar problems, but party officials hoped they had stopped the mad dash to move up by threatening to strip Florida of all its convention delegates for scheduling a primary Jan. 29 and by persuading the major Democratic candidates to campaign only in the party-approved early states.

The decision by the major Democratic candidates to campaign only in approved early states renders voting in the rogue states essentially non-binding beauty contests.
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_6804685?source=rss

Kucinich Files Affidavit To Remove Name From Michigan's Primary Shortly Before Deadline

October 10, 2007 8:19 a.m. EST
Ayinde O. Chase - AHN Staff
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7008781843
Dover, NH (AHN) - The Kucinich for President campaign Tuesday afternoon officially requested that Kucinich's name be withdrawn from the Michigan Democratic primary ballot. The affidavit came by way of to the Michigan Secretary of State's office.The Ohio Congressman and Democratic Presidential candidates
National Campaign manager Mike Klein said in the statement, "We signed a public pledge recently, promising to stand with New Hampshire, Nevada, South Carolina, and the DNC-approved 'early window', and the action we are taking today protects New Hampshire's first-in-the-nation primary status, and Nevada's early caucus."
The statement continued: "We support the grassroots nature of the New Hampshire, small-state primary, and we support the diversity efforts that Chairman Dean and the DNC instituted last year, when they added Nevada and South Carolina to the window in January 2008. We are obviously committed to New Hampshire's
historic role." Klein who actually recently moved to Dover said, "We will continue to adhere to the DNC-approved primary schedule."

Governor Granholm and other Michigan Democratic leaders have openly criticized the decision by several presidential candidates to keep their names off the state primary ballot. The Michigan lawmakers are taken back by Barack Obama, Joe Biden, John Edwards and Bill Richardson's decision to withdraw their names from the January 15th ballot.

The only ones who remain on Michigan's primary ballot are Hillary Clinton, Mike Gravel and Chris Todd.

Editorial: Follow DNC rules on seating delegates
February 25, 2008
By Editorial Board

On September 1, the campaigns of Clinton and Senator Barack Obama (D-Ill.) issued press releases stating that they had signed pledges affirming the DNC’s decision to approve certain representative states and sanction others for moving their nominating contests earlier. But now that the race is close, Clinton — whose top advisor Harold Ickes voted as a member of the DNC to strip Florida and Michigan of their delegates — is pushing for the delegates to be seated.
Her argument is that not doing so disenfranchises the 1.7 million Florida Democrats who voted and that her pledge promised only that she wouldn’t campaign in the states, not that she wouldn’t try to seat the delegates. However, the results of the contests in Florida and Michigan are not necessarily representative of the voters’ preferences in those states. Given that most of the candidates removed their names from the
Michigan ballot, and that many voters stayed home from the vote in Florida with the understanding that their contest would not affect the final delegate count, the delegate totals that the candidates accumulated in these states may not accurately reflect the will of the voters. Had there been no restrictions in Michigan and Florida, the turnout, and thus the results, may have been different.

The Four State Pledge all candidates signed on Aug. 28 stated, “Whereas, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee will strip states of 100% of their delegates and super delegates to the DNC National Convention if they violate the nomination calendar...

Therefore, I ____________, Democratic Candidate for President, in honor and in accordance with DNC rules ...pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any election contest occurring in any state not already authorized by the DNC to take place in the DNC approved pre-window.” When the candidates pledged to campaign only in approved states, they were also agreeing to the terms listed above, which explicitly mentioned stripping noncompliant states of their entire delegation.


House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) recently said that the Florida and Michigan delegates should not be seated if they would decide the nomination. Other compromise proposals include holding new nominating contests in these states, but such contests would be expensive and cumbersome. The irony is that had Florida and Michigan not moved up their primaries, they would have voted in February and March, when they would have been even more important than in earlier months in determining the Democratic nominee — and would not have created an enormous controversy that has the potential to divide the party.
http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2008/2/25/editorialFollowDncRulesOnSeatingDelegates

Potential presidential nominees who did not want to appear on the Michigan January 15, 2008 presidential primary ballot could submit an affidavit with the Secretary of State by 4:00 p.m. on October 9, 2007. The January 15 date violates DNC rules, and five Democrats did submit the required affidavit: Biden, Edwards, Kucinich, Obama and Richardson. Clinton, Dodd and Gravel will appear on the Democratic ballot.

http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2008/chrnothp08/mi100907pr.html

[L0oniX]

134. Agreed. If your going to break the rules, why have any rules?

[LynneSin]

165. You're right, you changed my mind - let's just have random Chaos for our primaries in 2012

:sarcasm:

The only people who hurt the voters of Michigan and Florida are the democrat party leader dumbass who thought they were above the rule.

[lastliberalintexas]

174. I'm surprised at you Lynne

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I don't have a dog in this fight, I don't like either of the remaining candidates' moderatism but will gladly vote for either in November. People who aren't wearing primary blinders see that this issue involves more than just whether MI and FL delegates should be seated *this year* and whether IA and NH should have a stranglehold on first in the nation elections for the next several generations. I am so glad you felt that pointing out that this issue also involves the Iowa/New Hampshire issues that so many here used to rail against is certainly worthy of the saracstic scorn of an internet poster.


This primary has made me simply scan over posts of some DUers I formerly really enjoyed reading.

[SeaLyons]

5. ....

Go ahead and toast Dean now - when we lose the GE, I think MI and FL will be viewed in a different light.

[nichomachus]

10. Well, with a defeatist and pouting attitude like that

we might just lose.

If you hate choice, hate Roe v Wade, hate Social Security, hate quality public education, and hate peace -- just keep it up

[Fearless]

13. You know, I'm getting sick and tired of the negative attitude...

Could you think for one second about the future of this nation instead?

[stillcool]

101. They already are...

rogue states. Threatening to stay home, or vote republican is just more extortion.

[L0oniX]

131. My mother could run against McInsain and win. Save your "when we lose the GE" shit...

for the other dumb asses that are stupid enough to believe that crap.

[Jensen]

6. From Florida and I support Howard Dean!

:toast: Ditto!

[Lost-in-FL]

12. DITTO!!!

Florida should be banned from the electoral process for 8 years and given a remedial course to all their citizens on how to organize a primary and how to vote. But in all seriousness, I wish they would teach this in public school, a full course on the electoral process.

[ForeignSpectator]

20. No can do, they are busy banning...

... evolution science and witchcraft from their schools.

[Lost-in-FL]

71. Damn... I forgot that.

:-(

[Jensen]

29. Most people in Florida come from all parts of the country, it is hard

to find someone originally from Florida!I do agree on a full course on the electoral process, not just for Florida but across the United States of America for it is lacking and for people to pay attention to Our Democracy vs per say, American Idol.
If we break the rules knowingly we must take the punishment and that is exactly what happen in the Florida, Michigan problem. Next time other States including Florida and Michigan wont over reach!

[Schema Thing]

7. He's playing it correctly, as best I can tell

It's a no win situation, and it's all the leadership of the dem parties in FL and MI fault.

[FSogol]

8. K&R! N/T

[mod mom]

9. Thank you Dr Dean!

[DearAbby]

11. Toast to Dean

:toast:

[newmajority]

14. Howard Dean speaks for me!

As he often has since 2003.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

15. Don't cry for me ...

MI broke the rules, Dean should stick to his guns. Otherwise, there'll be chaos (well, even more chaos) in 2012. If Dean keeps MI delegates from voting, good for him!

It would be good to seat MI delegates, just to be represented at the convention, but seated with no vote on the nominees, not even from the MI Super-D's.

I wish MI didn't screw this up, ran their primary at the normal schedule, with all candidates on the ballot and campaigning. It didn't happen, so our vote should not count. We'll be there in November.

And now, to the really important stuff:
Go Blue!

:hi:

[Jim Lane]

43. I'm glad that SOMEBODY mentioned the key issue -- 2012

Each state wants to be more important than the others. Congress should deal with the situation by establishing a national system of regional primaries, with the order varying from one election to the next.

In the absence of any sign of sensible Congressional action, though, only the parties can curb the competition to be first. The DNC's solution this year, which preserved the privileged status of Iowa and New Hampshire, wasn't perfect. Still, it represented some improvement over an unrestrained free-for-all in scheduling.

If Florida and Michigan get away with defying the DNC and picking whatever dates they want, then 2012 will see a further rush to the front. Iowa and New Hampshire will end up voting right after Thanksgiving and by 2016 they'll be voting right after Halloween. Props to the DNC (and, to be fair, to the RNC) for addressing the problem.

[cyclezealot]

111. Some states are more important than the others

namely NH, Iowa, SC. With the exception of Iowa, they rarely go Democratic. yet, they narrow down the list of active candidates before the Blue States get to vote. Had I have the choice after the Super Tuesday race, I'd not bother to vote because NH took away the only candidates I had any enthusism for. And who are they to merit such importance. Unless we refrom the primary selection process, I am hoping someone break the rules again, come four years time.

[lastliberalintexas]

127. Thank you

I take it from your avatar that you are not a Clinton or Obama supporter, which I suppose is why you can see the bigger issue involved. In fact, it used to be discussed quite often on this site and within the Dem party, but apparently not so popular anymore.

[cyclezealot]

146. The Hillary / Obama conflict obstructs our vision

No we are not. We find both lacking in substance and often wrong. / Inflict personalities and we forget the big picture. I am sure under a different primary process the present divisiveness would have been long over and I doubt we'd had the same candidates from which to pick as our eventual nominee. / Of course we have no other options come November. We must get behind Obama, even if we agree with Nader more often than Obama.

[futureliveshere]

16. Agreed... Go Dean

[thoughtcrime1984]

17. I support him, big time!

Why should states break rules and not be punished for them? The votes were under false pretenses if they are used to seat delegations. What an utter joke that'd be. He will get them seated, but it won't be as they currently are. The SD's from those 2 states definitely should not count, they are some of the people that caused this mess to begin with.

[EFerrari]

18. Go, Howard!

[madfloridian]

19. Recommended and kicked

:hi:

[SCantiGOP]

21. Amen

[ForeignSpectator]

22. Rules are rules, there have to be consequences for breaking them...

...otherwise you might as well abolish the rules directly.

[redqueen]

23. K&R.

[nvme]

24. He should keep their feet to the fire.

I think the most equitable situation is give each delegete 1/2 there vote in florida let the results stand as is. In Michigan, the situation is really complicated, so half the delegates count and both Clinton and Obama get equal votes. The argument that Obama made a choice to pull his name is just too much of a straw man's argument. The counter to that is because his name wasnt there many of his supporters voted for party and not the person.

[southern_belle]

25. I strongly support Howard Dean! n/t

[Hamlette]

26. agreed

we need to hold the line or the party is meaningless.

[silverweb]

28. An original Deaniac here.

He's been brilliant and I support him 100%.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

30. Oh, you "feel sorry" for us?

Will your pity get our votes counted?

The DNC is dead wrong on this via the collective punishment angle. Punish any party officials, but not the voters. Should we lose in November, Dean needs to resign for this sorry episode.

[gal]

41. Your party officals are voters to are they not?

I wouldn't call it pity, sorry as in you did not have a direct hand in it.

There are 48 other states, what about those voters as well?
Kind of like having 2 kids, one can break the rules the other can't.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

46. Then punish THOSE voters (i.e. the party officials) and leave the rest ofus alone

Far as I know, most of the voters in all 50 of the states haven't broken the rules. All they've done is vote. And that's a good thing, in case you are wondering...

[stillcool]

92. Howard Dean does not have the power...

to waive the rules that the Democratic National Party voted for in 2006. Howard Dean does not have the power to waive the sanctions voted on by the Democratic National Committee in August of 2007. Who does have the power? All 400+ members of the Democratic National Committee. But that doesn't 'matter', does it?

[Maineman]

144. You are asking people outside Michigan to take

responsibility for what Michigan Dem voters need to do. YOU need to punish local officials who broke the rules and ruined your "vote".

[Maineman]

150. I support Howard Dean and following the rules.

I think the Clinton had in mind to break the rules when it might help. Why else did they leave her name on the Michigan ballot? Vote for someone who has respect for rules, fair play, cooperation, etc. Cheney once said something like "integrity has no value if you loose". The Clintons certainly seem to agree.

[LynneSin]

168. Dean did not force these states to move their primaries and offered to help organize new ones

You really are blaming the wrong person here. Dean did NOT disenfranchise voters in MI and FL - the state party leaders for those states did.

[LynneSin]

169. If I was a democrat from Florida or Michigan, I would be demanding that someone pay for this fiasco

and that would be my state party officials who felt they could defy the rules set for the primary season. Both states were warned and they ignored those warnings. Now those dumbasses that decided to ignore the warnings have disenfranchised millions of voters.

Without a doubt the blame lays with the state

[Tommy_Carcetti]

195. It was Dean's call to strip all the delegates

Thus punishing the voters, not the state party leaders.

As such, the blame rests on him. You can eliminate the middle man.

[LynneSin]

202. Sorry, he had no choice and the states were warned this was to happen

and I know that Dean offered to help the states run a 2nd primary to make up for the lost one.

The states figured they could ignore the DNC and what they want. Had Dean let them get away with this it would only cause more chaos in future primaries. Dean is not to blame - he made a threat and the states ignored it. Dean showed that threats are not issued lightly

[Tommy_Carcetti]

207. Of course he had a choice

He could have punished the leaders/representatives who moved the primary without punishing the voters. Or simply announced a measure such as stripping only the superdelegates which would not have affected the validity of the people's vote.

Instead, in a very poor and questionable lapse of judgment, he choose the nuclear option. Maybe it was just an attempt to act tough, but regardless, it was wrong. And if it goes to the convention where only 48 states have a say in the nominating process, there will be negative consequences on the nominee, whether you like it or not.

My faith in Dean as our DNC chair has been severely shaken. He should not have been that reckless.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

223. what a crock. WHAT NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES?

NAME ONE. just one. Honestly. spit it out, if you are all so cocksure and convinced.

Explain to me, with facts, cause and effect, logic, how the fact that 341 individuals from two states, cannot go and party their asses off for three days in Denver.
How will that impact the 28 MILLION citizens of those states?

Do you really think that three months later, with foreclosures ever higher, with oil at 170 a barrel, with the prime mortgage market crashing, with John McCain showing wear, tear, PTSD, age, and possible senility - that 28,000,000 people from Florida and Michigan will say, WAIT, YOU DID NOT LET OUR 341 DELEGATES PARTY THEIR ASSES OFF AT A DENVER CONVENTION WHERE THE RESULT WAS ALREADY KNOWN? IS that what you are saying?

I call bullshit on you and all the other aryan hillaryans who make this crap up.

[Beregond2]

31. Absolutely

I support him, though it isn't a question of anyone's "stance;" it's the rules that were agreed to by all parties concerned.

Speaking of Dean, why is Jon Stewart always such a dick to him? Everytime he appears on the Daily Show, Stewart lays into him about problems with the Democratic Party, and when Dean trys to explain, Stewart cuts him off. Dean always stays pleasant, but I don't konw why. I'd say: "If you'd shut up for two seconds, I could clarify things for your audience."

Given Stewart's obvious liberalism, it's odd that he always saves his most vicious attacks for Democrats.

[DFW]

114. Howard saves his most aggressive responses for dimwitted hostile interviewers

He nails Fox and CNN to the barn door. He lets Stewart have his fun because he
is both entertaining and at heart an ally.

[bobthedrummer]

32. Thanks! Democracy For America too!

[truebrit71]

33. I am proud to stand with Howard Dean.

He is the best thing that has happened to the DNC in a long, long time...now as soon as Obama gets the official nod maybe we can begin the purge of the DLC'ers and start taking back the Democratic Party from the corporate centrist's and the compromisers...

[ellisonz]

34. K & R

[merkins]

35. K&R

[dana_b]

36. go Howard!! Seat them, but don't give in to Clinton's fits. n/t

[FrenchieCat]

37. Here......

supportin'! :patriot:

[Missouri Girl]

38. K&R

[Tippy]

39. Bush didn't follow the rules / laws and look what happened to our Country......n/t

[NC_Nurse]

40. Go Howard! You rock!

:loveya:

[rocktivity]

42. Stay the course, Doctor Dean--the port is in sight!

Dr. Dean has quite literally gotten us where we are today. He is being fought by the DLC element of the party because though his spreading-the-wealth "fifty-state strategy" has been effective, it takes money out of their pockets. Hillary Clinton is a DLC officer.

As for the MI/FL delegate issue, Dean has to be fair to:

• The people who voted (though they were warned that their votes wouldn't count)
  
• The people who didn't vote (because they were warned that their votes wouldn't count)
  
• The DNC (because he was hired to enforce their rules)
  
• The 48 states that obeyed the DNC's rules

Dean does NOT have to be fair to:

• The people who moved the MI/FL primary dates (because they violated the rules and were warned that the votes wouldn't count if they did)

How does he make everyone at least somewhat happy without punishing the innocent? I suspect he's going to seat the delegates 50/50 and not seat the superdelegates.

:headbang:
rocknation

[VenusRising]

44. I support the good Doctor!

:patriot:

[Why Syzygy]

47. Thank you, Doctor Dean! We're with you.

[sandyj999]

48. I'm in Michigan, I voted and I'm cool with whatever happens.

The idiots in this state broke the rules, they were warned and they messed up. In turn they messed up the citizens that took the time to vote but rules are rules and I can live with it. I say let's move on! I'm more concerned about the damn cost of gas!

[MelissaB]

49. Ditto! I'm from Michigan at the Canadian border.

:hi:

Dr. Dean rocks!

[PassingFair]

75. I feel exactly the same way.

Our state party officials KNEW that
we didn't want to risk losing our
delegates just to "go first", and
they did it anyway.

I could care less if some yahoos get
a free trip to Denver.....

Whatever, I'm jonesin' for the GE!

[vanboggie]

80. We shouldn't count

Another Michigander who thinks fair's fair - Michigan powers that be screwed up big time. Our votes mean squat and our delegates need to stay home.

[Strawman]

229. Yep. Not Dean's fault.

[demokatgurrl]

50. Sorry to rain on the parade but Dean fucked up.

He caused this mess- not alone, the party honchos were in on it and equally at fault, but I will never praise him for the way he's handled thi situation.
And by the way I voted for Dean in the 2000 primary. I don't hate him by any means. But he absolutely SUCKS as DNC chairman.

[stillcool]

94. Howard Dean does not have the power...

to waive the rules of the Democratic National Party, as voted on by all member in 2006. Howard Dean does not have the power to waive the sanctions voted on by the Democratic National Committee in August of 2007. The Democratic Party is not the party of Michigan and Florida. The threats of staying home or voting Republican are extortion.

[Upfront]

51. Howard Dean is a great American

Just think what it would be like if they had not screwed him when he ran for president. I believe in Howard Dean!

[lojasmo]

52. Thank you, Governor Dean.

[AtomicKitten]

53. Dean is a pillar of righteous resolve in the face of the Clinton angry mob

who are starting to look like this:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

158. perfect comparison

[Rose Siding]

54. Dean: World's best cat herder.

:toast:

I still can't believe we were lucky enough to get him for the job.

[On the Road]

55. I Give Props to Howard

Not only for enforcing the rules, but for (1) his efforts to get a revote and (2) his promise that the delegates will still be seated in some fashion. Quite a tightrope he had to walk.

:toast:

[SlipperySlope]

56. Not a wide stance I hope.

They have to watch out for that, you know.

[slay]

57. Howard is AWESOME. Should have been our guy for 2004

Still, he's done a great job at the DNC and seems to be a man of true principles. Rock on Howard! :yourock:

[RiverStone]

60. Even a kid knows, you break the rules -you don't get to play.

Howard has been right on.

Too bad arrogant state party bosses screwed the voters out of a legit election.

And I'm all for a redo.

But seating delegates as is would be a total joke.

I commend HD for sticking to principles that future states must also follow.

[pdx_prog]

61. It is not fair to the other 48

to let this clear disregard of the rules go unpunished. They knew the stakes and he consequences but yet they pushed on. It's the same as sitting the primary out. If you don't register you don't get to vote...if you are so arrogant as to purposely break the rules then you must pay.....it's that simple.

[garybeck]

63. Dean is not as great as everyone here is making him out to be!

I live in Vermont and had him as a governor for several years. Every 2 years when there was an election coming he started talking about solar panels and wind generators, and after he got elected he did nothing. I remember there was a meeting on renewables at the state house one time and he was too busy to go. When I found out he was instead doing a photo op displaying the new postage stamp with Vermont on it, I was very disappointed. He also is aware of the problems with the voting machines and is doing nothing about it as leader of the Party. In fact he's misleading people by saying that the optical scan machines can be trusted. I don't want to burst everyone's bubble but Dean is not all he's cracked up to be.

[gal]

119. Nobody is perfect

And I certainly did not do this to infer that he is. I did it because it seems like it is very easy to criticize and when your under pressure that seems to be what you hear the most. I thought it would be nice for the people that support him in the Florida & Michigan situation have a place to voice that.

[tbyg52]

64. I completely support Dr. Dean. nt

[kwenu]

65. Dean is right! Florida is absolutely pathetically arrogant. Michigan is still kinda cool though.

[TragedyandHope]

66. No shenanigans

:kick:

[Left coast liberal]

67. Long time Deaniac here! Howard is the man!

[Hippo_Tron]

68. In principle Dean is right, but Michigan and Florida will be seated for political expedience

Obama will become the presumptive nominee in two weeks and he will seat Florida and Michigan because it won't matter anymore.

[gbrenna]

69. Dean's 50 state stategy is brilliant!

Dean is a genius. He understand the politics of our time. The Clinton's are 90's kind of people. Dean understands that for Democrats to win, the red/blue map must be discarded. We must form new coalitions-winning coalitions. I support Governor Dean.

[Coexist]

70. checking in - love Dean!

[netgui68]

72. Dean is the best

I appreciate his intrgrity and commitment to fairness and honesty.

[Fox Mulder]

73. MI and FL broke the rules.

They should be punished for it.

[Cha]

74. Dean goes by the rules and that's

all we had. This isn't the kind of thing you can come in and change the rules mid stream 'cause you're a whining loser.

[billyoc]

76. Gov. Dean has my unqualified support.

The 50 state strategy is the best thing to ever happen to the Democratic Party.

[ZinZen]

77. From a Deaniac who supports his role

in the DNC. :toast:

[mnhtnbb]

78. Good on Howard Dean! Too bad more of the 'leadership' doesn't have his integrity.

[cliffordu]

79. I support Dean absolutely. The idiots that tried a reach around on the

rules are the ones that should be run out of the party.

[sonias]

81. I support Howard Dean

And the rules all the states agreed to abide by. Michigan and Florida will be seated at the convention but they should not be rewarded for breaking the rules.

:loveya: Howard!

Sonia

[salib]

82. 50 States, 50 State strategy.

Makes sense to me.

[cyclezealot]

126. sounds more like a 48 state strategy, to me.

[lligrd]

83. Love Dean nt

[Captain Angry]

84. The only thing I don't understand is...

How on earth can anybody be mad at Dr. Dean enforcing the rules that were already agreed upon? If Florida and Michigan felt the need to move, they could have made that decision a long time ago.

I propose a new system.

One month after inauguration day, all of the states and territories have their names put in a hat, and drawn out. They get to select their dates within a predefined date range. That's the date for the primaries and caucuses for the next 4 year cycle. Period.

[droidamus2]

85. Has my support

I support Dean and the enforcement of the rules as the candidates agreed to them. Something that doesn't seem to get discussed much (didn't look at every message in this thread so sorry if somebody has already covered this idea) is that part of this include MI and FL is the battle between the DNC and the DLC for control of the Democratic party. If Hillary and the DLC can weaken the DNC by making them backdown and include FL and MI as voted it will just enhance the influence of the DLC. Personally I much prefer the DNC as I feel the DLC only represents the conservative/corporate wing of the party. I also support Dean and the 50 state strategy rather than the DLC old losing method of just trying to win enough states to sneak into the White House. I believe the DLC strategy is what makes Florida 2000 and Ohio 2004 possible. We must get the progressive message out to every state, city and town. To only preach to choir means we will always struggle to win at the highest levels. Last but certainly not least VOTE DEMOCRATIC PARTY. I voted for Obama here in Vermont but no matter who ends up being the nominee I will support and vote for them and I hope all other Democrats will be able to put the primary race behind them and move forward strongly and together to put a Democrat in the White House.

[DirtyDawg]

86. Face it...

...the reason the FL and MI Demos thought they could pull this off was that they were full of Clintonites that never liked Howard in the first place. They figured that they could run roughshod over him and get what they wanted. Well my man Howard has stood his ground and will right to the end - and then he'll win.

All I need to know about how good a job I think Howard Dean has been doing is to know that the Clintons and their Begalas and their 'Ragin Cajun' can't stand it that Dean's in charge and kicking ass.

[ekwhite]

87. Governor Dean has had a tough job this year

He has had to enforce the rules - always tough to do in the Democratic party. It is time to work out a fair compromise and seat Florida and Michigan though.

[last1standing]

88. I support him 100%

He's the best thing to happen to the party in 50 years.

[stillcool]

89. I support Howard Dean..

I support "Rules", and I support the "Democratic" Party.

[hokies4ever]

91. Great job by Dean

Everybody knows that MI and FL will be seated. They've already scheduled a date to seat the delegates (5/31). Dean is just punishing the legislators right now. I guarantee that not a day goes by that their constituents don't call and e-mail them to complain. Serves them right and it'll deter them from doing it again in 2012. Otherwise every state will move up their primary date in the future.

[Hutzpa]

93. Damn Right I do

:toast:


:thumbsup:


K&R

:kick:

[Gore1FL]

95. It isn;t Dean's stance--it's the DNC's stance

but I do support Dean. He is the best thing to happen to the DNC since DNC.org

[gal]

120. Good point

I should have pointed that out, he is the face man taking the heat.

[Diane R]

96. Dr. Dean has my full support!!

[anitar1]

97. I support Dean 10 #. nt

[DeSwiss]

98. Yo Howard!!!!!!!

Best thing to happen to the Dems in a very, very long time!!!

- K & F*ing R!!!!!

[demwing]

100. From Deaniac to Obamaniac!

Dean paved the way, both in the methods he used to fund his campaign, and in the strategies he pursued in making Dems competitive nationwide.

Has anyone ever said the magic words?

Obama/Dean 2008?

[jjr5]

102. Howard Dean is standing strong

and I thank him for that. Keep it up, we're behind you!

[donheld]

103. I still want Dean for President

[Alexander]

104. K&R. Kudos to the good Dr. Dean.

[The Wizard]

105. it's the rules (NT)

:kick:

[NM Independent]

106. K&R

[Sunnyshine]

107. K&R-Love ya Howie! n/t

[cyclezealot]

108. Dont feel sorry for this Michiganian

We support what Debbie Dingell did. The primary system is a farce and needs reform. Its not a race for ideas. Its divisive, unelightening and unrepresentative. Too late , we sent our letter of thanks to Debbie Dingell and Howard Dean. Why not did Dean not have the good sense to follow the lead of the RNC and recommend a similiar punishment to what the RNC did to the MIch and Fla GOP delegates. Cut their delegation by 50%. This is not new fight. Michigan has been fighting the primacy of the small states for years. Not a new fight. And it repeatedly gets ignored. Enough. Still, Dean should not be taken down for his lack of foresight in following the lead of the RNC in regards to Mich and Fla GOP delegates to St Paul.

[gal]

138. Well your not ignored this year.

There is a reason they have the small states go first, I don't know how many know this and to many it may not be a good reason.
Maybe this will have the DNC party as a whole to look at the issue again, if so then hopefully those that feel disenfranchised feel like something came out of it. I'm sure Michigan and Florida are not the only 2 states that wanted to move up their primary, but thier the only ones who did THIS year.

This thread wasn't to say they did not have a legitimate issue or not, it was to have a place to voice support for someone taking alot of heat.

[cyclezealot]

152. We still support Dean

but think he made mistakes. Can't voice support should we disagree with him. Sorry.

[cyclezealot]

242. When you have an issue

and its not addressed, you don't demand changes by rolling over and playing dead.

[flor de jasmim]

110. Dean, thanks for your "testicular fortitude"!

[d00mzday]

112. K&R

I support Dean. How about going after the people who broke the rules in the first place.

[Apollo11]

113. I saw Dean say that he wants to find a solution that is fair to the folks who voted in FL & MI

If the DNC rules committee can succeed in finding a solution that respects the rights of citizens who showed up to vote in FL & MI, then I will support it 100%.

As Howard Dean has pointed out, it was political leaders who messed this up -- not the voters.

Punishing all the Democratic voters in these states would be an example of "collective punishment".

Like making the whole class do a detention because one kid broke the rules, it would be inherently unjust.

[cjsmom44]

115. Re: Rules

We are not kids in a playground
who make up rules as we go

RULES ARE RULES...

Thank you Mr. Dean for being the grownup

Thanks to Sen Obama who knows the rules
and doesn't try to change them.

[barack the house]

116. Best way to thank him is to mail him and donate to the DNC let's have a good reception for Sen Obama

[Califooyah Operative]

117. I support Dean 100%.

K&R

[Kaleko]

118. Supporting Dean n/t

[stevenleser]

121. Go Dean and GoBama!!! (K&R)

[Usrename]

122. Dean is the hero once again. He is saving the party from itself.

:patriot:

[mdmc]

123. HO HO!!!

:toast:

[annie1]

124. they need to do something more for FLA. what's happening right now...

is not cool. although from what i understand it's up to barack at this point. is that right? Dean said he would allow a deal? in which case it's hillary's fault for not coming up with a better plan to have attacked obama on florida.

[Zachstar]

128. Dean did great!

[WillyT]

129. Thank You Dr, Dean !!! - K & R !!!

:toast::yourock::toast:

[curious one]

130. Both FL and MI should be seated at the convention BUT:

1. FL and MI votes to be counted as half
2. FL and MI votes to be divided evenly between Hillary and Obama

By doing this there will be no advantage to anyone and FL and MI delegates are seated and punished at the same time. Besides did Hillary signed the agreement along with the rest of the candidates?

PS - treat both FL and MI as misbehaved children.

[lazyriver]

132. K&R for Dean.

[ShortnFiery]

133. NO SLACK! FL and MI broke the rules. Delegates seated 50:50 but no vote counts.

On Edit: Yes! Howard Dean speaks for me.

Seat the delegates *evenly* STILL follows the rules, MI and FL don't effect the result. :thumbsup:

[Myrina]

136. I Support Dr/Chairman Dean!!!

:patriot: :applause:

[Meshuga]

137. K & R n/t

[Surya Gayatri]

139. We stand behind you, Dr. Dean...

Rules are rules--discipline must be maintained or anarchy will prevail. Please do not give in to political blackmail, Dr. Dean. SG

[HousePainter]

140. Representational democracy

There is a hierarchy.
The voters elect representatives,
those representatives supposedly bring the voice of their constituents to Washington,
the State capital, the city council, the DNC etc.

It's not a matter of punishing the people of Fla. and Mich. for something
they had no hand in. It's a matter of holding them to the rules that everyone agreed to play by.
Their representatives < those people they elected to represent them > may have misrepresented them,
so under our system they should elect people at the next opportunity who will better represent them.

End of story.

Howard Dean is doing what a good and impartial referee should do, follow the rule book.

Given that the attempt to bend the rules is being made by the candidate who has by all objective metrics lost the nomination fight,
and who earlier in the campaign is on record saying that Fla. and Mich. would not count, and who is also on record stating the delegate magic number is 2025 (the number w/o Fla. and Mich.) why are we even considering this a legitimate argument ?

[Tuesday_Morning]

141. Great job, Howard!

Thank you.

[Pharaoh]

142. Kickin for Howie!!

K&R

[ChairmanAgnostic]

143. there are 341 delegates in MI&FLA. They have 28,000,000 citizens.

does anyone REALLY think that the failure to kowtow to 341 political hacks, because their leaders screwed the pooch, knowing they were breaking the rules, and hoping not to get caught, and keeping them from voting in the first round in Denver, will have ANY IMPACT IN NOVEMBER?

Give me a break. Talk about a manufactured piece of $HIT. Thank Terry McAufful for this spin.

come on. out of those 28 million people in both states, probably 10 million are registered to vote. Of them, more than half are Democrats this year. YOU KNOW they will support the D nominee in November. any other argument is just crap.

[Shipwack]

145. This Floridian supports Dean.

Actions must have consequences. The Florida legislature was laughing while debating the issue, because they thought that they could just break party unity with impunity.

They were surprised when Dean showed he had more spine than Pelosi Or Reid, and actually ::gasp:: did what he said he was going to do. Now the legislatures are whining about Dean "taking away" their representation, and threatening to not support the Democratic Party anymore, which shows the depth of their loyalty.

[DemVet]

148. I call for Howard Dean's resignation as DNC Chair.

This FL and MI fiasco is his fault. Putting some stupid rule (that wasn't even enforced against all states) ahead of the votes of some 4 million Democrats is absolutely assinine, foolish, and politically suicidal.

Never again will the Democratic Party be able to say: "Count Every Vote."

[ChairmanAgnostic]

154. fiasco? his fault?

what's that smell? Ah yes, the rotting corpse of the most squandering, pathetic, advantage-tossing campaign ever seen in the history of US politics, with the last, fetid breath consisting of more crap from Terry McAufful. And still their puppets pollute the intertubes.

there are a total of 341 delegates at issue. that's it. 341. there are 28 MILLION people in those states. and you sit there and claim that this is somehow politically suicidal? You, sir, are full of it.

[DemVet]

172. I would like...

...to reply to your post but it just makes no sense.

Try again.

[Technodaoist]

192. you DID reply...

...or could it be that it makes sense and you don't want to validate it by understanding it?

[Major Hogwash]

239. How'd that work out for ya?

What a joke.

[Deep13]

149. OPPOSE

Democracy should trump party rules.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

156. at least, only those rules that adversely impact your queen.

all other rules that may impact Obama are just fine, thank you very much.

[Deep13]

163. see previous post

Nothing HC has done is in violation of the rules or is even dishonest. HC's supporters by and large are not personally loyal to her, unlike you and the rest of the Obama are towards your candidate. So the queen reference is off base too.

[dzika]

151. K&R n/t

[Jemmons]

155. I often wonder what kind of president he would had become...n/t

[OzarkDem]

157. I don't support him on this one

though I've always been a fan of the 50 state strategy, he painted himself into a corner on this one.

Democrats don't disenfranchise voters, period.

[gal]

159. What are your plans for those that implemented this then?

Dean isn't the one that is responsible for this. They are the DNC rules not his.
I would like to know what the plans are for the people in these 2 states that implemented this. If you really feel it is so wrong, do you have any plans or does anyone have plans to go after them?

[OzarkDem]

170. Dean was selective in eforcing those rules

he screwed up, period.

[fadedrose]

160. This lady from Michigan supports Howard Dean. Protect my "uncommitted" vote...

[Hugabear]

161. I'm a Floridian, and I completely support Dean on this issue

Our state blew it. We KNEW damned well what the consequences would be. We didn't care. Our Democrats in Tallahassee were every bit as complicit, marching lockstep with Crist and the GOP in their rush to move the primary forward. They didn't even TRY to protest or fight it.

[ringtailtooter]

177. It is actually Jeb Bush's fault.

The Bush family was supporting Romney and Giuliani was in the lead at the time. Jeb used his influence to see that Crist and Tallahassee would make sure FL wouldn't support Rudy. The mostly Republican state legislators agreed to cutting their delegates in half in order to make this happen. They tagged the motion to move the primary forward onto a bill the Democrats were sponsoring, and in order to get their bill through, the Democrats agreed to loose all their delegates. Florida politics at it's worst!

[WA98296]

162. Supporting Dean

[TheCowsCameHome]

164. Rules are made for a reason. FL and MI chose to go their own way.

I support Dr. Dean.

[OneSelf]

166. K&R for the good Doctor.

I'm in.

[chieftain]

167. This Floridian supports Dean and the Democratic Party. nt

[peace frog]

171. Second that

Count me as another Floridian firmly behind Dean. Hold fast, Howard!

[SlingBlade]

173. K & R

[NBachers]

176. Done

[PATRICK]

178. The issue is clear

Dean has done his job and avoided the chaos the GOP intended to create and that a troubled campaign through its supporters chose to take advantage of. Did he ram these rules in at the beginning, rules voted by the party whether they were good ones or not? Did he waffle and play favorites to weaken and interpret those rules out of existence? Did he close all doors to mending the trouble the two state legislatures cause- with the enthusiastic encouragement of the GOP?

Is the most indignant group, from Florida, now boasting how righteous and untampered with their voting system is that it should lead the pack in giving momentum to a candidate? Who are the most outraged voices whipping up the cheated citizens of the state to back their misdeed, done as arrogantly and in your face as possible? Have they further allied themselves with one candidate over another to further render "compromise" a deal by pols for pols above the law and behind the swindled ranks of the citizens
they marched to decidedly valueless polling- a polling ruined by the effect of the decision upon the process and outcome?

If Dean were playing favorites he might have stepped beyond the simple justice of the confrontation to either resolve it simply to shut up the transgressors or to seal in the favor to one candidate or the other to end the long primary season for which these two states are very much responsible in holding out a large fogbound bloc of questionable delegates. The party has been amply "punished", the losing candidate amply rewarded, by the two state legislatures already. Dean needs no scapegoating because it makes no difference to his future as chair, the HRC people already clearly intending(win or lose) to see him out, because they interpret his success as a threat to control over the party by certain factions and philosophies(which I personally find inferior if not objectionable in every way).

The real issues, when obscured put Dems in the same, exact same, category as the present GOP. The real issue is making a better primary process and making sure agreements and rules stick. In fact, to avoid the huff and puff dropping out of states from having the impact they have, even when their relevancy has been decided upon, stronger teeth and clarity must be put into the punishment. Having rogue primaries, gaming and bullying the results, has created damage, albeit less than a rogue stampede of chaos to be gamed by the purposeful, disciplined in every way GOP. But because they hide behind their state voters pointing the fingers at the national party and Dean, Dean, Dean not only do they escape accountability but will be offered an olive branch and seats at the Convention.

The GOP has lost their party, hopefully for good. What this reminds us of is that their are factions willing to destroy our party for power and influence with the intent of being the lesser of two evils- at least until they are on top and by precedents allowed for the rogue GOP, will rewrite Law at their own will and for their own profit- and flush America down the drain.

Dean is a hero for doing his job. He has not solved the problem of the threats within our own party nor has he tried do except by doing the right thing and making sure we are a national party everywhere just for starters.

[GreenEyedLefty]

179. As a Michigander, I can't help but think

That this debacle was a big, HUGE boon for Obama.

[corkhead]

180. I'm a Dean supporter from Michigan. You are doing the right thing Howard!

we knew going into the voting booth that it wasn't going to count. you can't put the genie back into the bottle. it is like a fumble in football but the whistle had blown. it is a dead play no matter what transpired after the whistle.

[Technodaoist]

186. I'm normally not one...

...for sports analogies - but good one!

[williesgirl]

181. We have him to thank for his 50-state strategy which paid off in 06 and right now. Cudos to him!

rec'd

[DinahMoeHum]

182. Dr. Dean and his 50-State Strategy are the reasons

I hold a "Democracy Bond", which contributes $$ each and every month.

http://www.democrats.org/democracybonds.html

:kick::kick:

[RobertSeattle]

183. Got MIFL?

Nope - you broke the rules!

[Hugabear]

184. Why have any rules at all if we're not going to enforce them?

I've posted this question several times, and I have YET to get a rational answer from any Hillary supporter. This decision to strip Michigan & Florida of their delegates was made well ahead of their primaries.

Why didn't Hillary immediately begin demanding that the Michigan & Florida primaries be counted? Why did she wait until AFTER both states had voted, and AFTER she was starting to slide, that both states count?

Every single time I post this question, I either get crickets or some smart-ass response.

Why have rules if they're not going to be enforced? And if you don't have rules, what's to prevent states from continuing to try to one-up each other? When does it end? You could conceivably have states holding their primaries in October or November, or even earlier! Hell, what's to stop a state from holding their primary immediately following the inauguration? I know that's a facetious example, but without any rules in place to govern this, it's possible.

[Technodaoist]

185. post of support

The time to debate FL and MI are long over... When it was first becoming an issue, ALL parties agreed with Dean and The DNC's ruling. Keep in mind this was when that 'inevitability' hubris was all the rage.

To quote Clinton's campaign manager at the time - "We believe Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina play a unique and special role in the nominating process, and we believe the DNC's rules and its calendar provide the necessary structure to respect and honor that role." (remember, there was a LOT of calendar shuffling going on by a LOT of states)

In other words - Clinton agreed that the people of FL and MI didn't count... but other states were more important, so any issues with rules or calendar could be ignored.

HRC was all for disenfranchisement before she was against it.

[dlfuller]

188. Props to Howard Dean!!!! K&R

[DeanDem10]

189. My screenname says it all, Go Howard! n/t

[graycem]

190. The two best things about

Dr.Dean is that he was just plain smart to fire up Democrats all over the country rather than just in the "big swing states." I'm sick of our elections being held hostage by them, that's how the GOP made it so easy to pull off their heist. It is time to come up with contingency plans in other states to at least try to break free from that mentality. I am glad he's not backing down, and is showing he has a backbone, because for one, Michigan did the EXACT same thing in 2004, why do they get to bully the head of the DNC two elections in a row? What about rules are so hard to follow? Why didn't they learn their lesson that time? And Florida lawmakers should've at least began by telling the truth, they'd have a much more sympathetic case if they had stood for something, instead of waiting until they didn't get their way. Now it just flat looks like what it is, they wanted to slant the outcome in favor of Hillary. So, indeed, thanks are in order for Dr.Dean, he's doing a terrific job of trying to be fair to both candidates. He's in a rough position right now and he deserves major kudos for doing the right thing instead of all the crap he's getting questioning his leadership. Yay, finally, a Democrat with integrity AND a backbone! :party:

[Peggy Day]

193. Thank you Howard Dean

Boy, if I break the rules, I always get into trouble. Maybe a review of the whole process would be in order. What about runoff voting? Maybe this will start us on a new process to correct the voting process.

[natrat]

194. in a sea of traitorous DLC scumbags Dean is a breath of fresh air

[2Design]

196. florida chair asked if we wanted a special election and I said no

don't waste the money - let the other states make the decision

[Mr. McD]

197. I support Dean 100%

:thumbsup:

[Iwillnevergiveup]

199. Proudly

support the fabulous Gov. Dr. Dean and cast Rec #160:toast:

[ornotna]

200. Another Floridian who supports Dr. Dean

Thank you Howard Dean.

[nomaco-10]

204. I have always supported Govenor Doctor Howard Dean.....

He's been kickin' ass and taking names for many years on behalf of us all. Nothing but love and respect from this grateful democrat.

[RubyDuby in GA]

205. I stand firmly behind Howard Dean!

Named my kid after him after all :)

[midnight]

206. Dr. Dean is following the rules. We support you.

[Chisox08]

208. Howard Dean must not give in

There are rules set up by the DNC in which the state parties agreed on and the candidates also agreed on, there are also punishments for breaking the rules. To allow the delegates from Florida and Michigan would discredit Dean and the DNC. If Fl. and Mich. get rewarded for breaking the rules what is to stop other states from moving their primaries up. What would stop states from holding their primaries in December of 2011.
Nobody should be angry with Dean, Obama nor the DNC, but they should focus their anger to the elected officials that voted to disenfranchise their own people. Be angry at the Dems. in Florida that voted 115-1 for moving the primaries ahead of Super Tuesday.

[KaptBunnyPants]

209. Dean is a good and honest man.

That is more than I can say for his critics. And his 50 state strategy is winning us a real majority party again.

[ooglymoogly]

211. Right on from another Deaniac who knows Dean got offed by the

corporate media.

[1trackmindGOP]

212. Gov. Dean keep sticking to the rules and fairness.

Thank you for all you have done for the party!

[krkaufman]

213. When the rules and consequences have been clearly communicated ...

... one must follow through when a child misbehaves; otherwise, there will be hell to pay in the future.

[ingac70]

214. Dean shoulda been Pres!

but I do have to say he has been an awesome chairman.

[me b zola]

215. Thank you Howard!

:hi:

[cadaverdog]

216. With more Dr. Deans, we could rule the world!

And I mean that in a good way.

[Arugula Latte]

217. I am keen for Dean!

:bounce:

[liberaldem4ever]

220. K&R!! Thank you Howard Dean

for standing up for what is honest and right. :hug:

[TexanDem]

221. Howard Dean is my man!! I supported him in '04 and still do. He's doing a great job!

[hisownpetard]

222. Thank you, Dr. Dean!

[alteredstate]

224. I support Governor Dean!

n/t

[wryter2000]

225. I love Dr. Dean

I can't find out what this is about, though. Anyone give me a clue?

[tnlefty]

226. Thanks to Chairman Dean!

:toast: Oh, BTW, the DNC ads that I've seen about McSame are kick ass ads. Keep up the good work!

[knixphan]

227. Go Chairman!

:toast:

[Poppa]

230. support for Dean

Howard Dean is doing the correct thing and I totally support his stance in this matter. Florida and Michigan should have thought of the consequences before going ahead and breaking the rules. Maybe next time they will go along with all the other states and follow party rules and procedures. Thanks Howard!!

[Lena inRI]

231. Taken-for-granted Dr. Dean, THANKS A MILLION!

The Doctor gave this Democratic Party a shot in the arm with his 50-state-strategy medicine. . .

we're getting healthier by the day. . .all the germs are dying off with our invigorated PEOPLES' IMMUNITY !

And, hey Dr. Dean, luv ya!

:kick: :loveya: :kick: :loveya: :kick:

[40ozDonkey]

232. Don't let our state pioneer the Two Year Election Cycle.

Florida representatives never asked us if we wanted our primary moved forward, they just did it and told us about it after the fact.
Fuck them, I support Howard Dean, Democrats, and progressive principles, not local politician scrubs who lie their ass off and can't hold real jobs.

[1620rock]

233. In a sea of traitorous DLC scumbags, Dean is the head scumbag.

[40ozDonkey]

235. What?? Howard Dean is HATED by the DLC, they tried to sink him in '04.

They called him an out-of-touch loony in '03 for his anti-war stance and you think he's their leader?



Right.

[justinaforjustice]

234. Dean is an Awesome Force for Democracy.

Howard Dean is chairman of the Democratic Party, he is not it's dictator. The rules were passed by the entire Democratic National committee -- some 460 members, including those that supported Hillary Clinton. It is Dean's job to enforce the rules, not to change them at the demand of the Clintonites. Prior to the first primary, Clinton herself agreed to respect these rules.

The arrogant state party leaders in Michigan and Florida, the majority of whom then supported HIllary Clinton, wanted to move their primaries up before the dates allowed by the rules because they wanted big wins up front for Clinton to give her momentum going into February 5th's Super Tuesday. They did so knowing that they were defying the rules. As a result, they shot themselves in the foot and shot down their own Democratic Party voters. It is the Michigan and Florida Democratic party leaders who are responsible for the sanctions, not Howard Dean.

Dean has been absolutely right to enforce the sanctions imposed, not by him, but by the Rules committee.

Clinton and the other DLCers began demonizing Dean when he ran for the Democratic nomination in 2004. They fought his election as DNC chairman and have continued to slander him since he took that office. It was Clinton supporter, James Carville who even had the arrogance to attack Dean right after the Democrats won the 2006 election, claiming he should have given more money to DLC candidates rather than "wasted" it on the 50 state strategy, yet it was the 50 state strategy that allowed us to win majorities in both the House and Senate in 2006 and it is the 50 state strategy being pursued by Barack Obama that has won him the nomination and will win him and the Democratic Party the presidency in November, 2008.

Clinton, who went into the Democratic nomination process with massive voter recognition and equally massive campaign funds, chose to concentrate on a few big states. She has squandered her name recognition advantage by her appalling attacks on Obama, all her big wealthy donors have been maxed out, and she is now in deep debt.

Clinton chose to spend her money on exorbitant fees to arrogant campaign strategists who had no experience in building local campaign organizations or tapping small individual donors. The vaunted Mark Penn, likely a Republican, didn't even understand the basic rules for Democratic Party delegate allocation, believing they were the same as the Republican's "winner take all" rather than proportional allocation rules which obtain. Running state by state, Obama built strong local organizations which brought out the vote (and will bring out the vote in November). Obama played by the DNC rules and has won the needed delegates.

In short, Clinton's "big state" strategy, along with her appalling attacks on Obama, youth, non-white voters and Democratic Party activists, has destroyed her substantial chance for the nomination and may have ended her future political career altogether.

Dean, by building the local and state Democratic Parties in every state and enforcing the DNC rules, is returning the Democratic Party to Democrats. He has done a fantastic job.

[Johnny__Motown]

237. I live in Michigan and I strongly support enforcing the rules

[Major Hogwash]

238. It is pretty cool to have someone like Dean lead the party for a change.

At least he had won elections unlike Terry the Asshat.

[Guaranteed]

240. He's the best person we could have possibly had in there.

We are blessed beyond our understanding.

[gal]

241. Wow the response here has been amazing.

It's good to see here, thank you. :)

[barack the house]

243. LONG LIVE DEAN!!